We currently have a light at the top of the stairs (on the
upstairs lighting circuit, switched from upstairs and
downstairs) and a light at the bottom (on the downstairs
lighting circuit) switched from downstairs near the front door.

I want to change the arrangement (primarily add a switch at the
other end of the hall) and someone recently told me that if the
upstairs and downstairs lights both serve the staircase (they
do) then they should both be operated by the same switch. Is
that true?

I also want to add a light at the back end of the hall, as the
light at the front doesnt light the back very well. So that
would mean three lights in parallel, an SPDT switch upstairs,
another SPDT at the front of the hall and an intermediate switch
at the back of the hall. It would make sense from the load
balancing point of view to have this all on the upstairs
lighting circuit, but that would mean that there is a light at
the back of the hall on the upstairs lighting circuit. Is that
OK?

Im asking about regulations here, not whether it would work!

--
Jón Fairbairn

In the average house, you don't need to much worry about lighting load.
Even less so if using LEDs, etc. And even less on the load of an
individual circuit like hall lights.

If going to the effort of re-wiring to add extra switches, make sure you
have enough and in the very best places.

For example, my hall lighting can be switched from the front door, half
way along the hall were the door to the living room is, at the far end to
the kitchen, and upstairs on the landing. (you can have as many
intermediates as you want.)

The landing light is also switched from several places.

Seems to be that many houses have switches sited for the benefit of the
electrician who installed them rather than the end user.

--
*If you must choose between two evils, pick the one you've never tried before

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Dave Plowman wrote:

my hall lighting can be switched from the front door, half
way along the hall were the door to the living room is, at the far end to
the kitchen, and upstairs on the landing. (you can have as many
intermediates as you want.)
The landing light is also switched from several places.

My landing light could be switched from the landing or the hall, but the
hall light couldn't be switched from the landing, so I dragged in an
extra 3+E cable to fix that.

No need for a switch near the front-door, I have an occupancy sensor,
more convenient when you arrive with an armful of shopping.

Dave Plowman (News) explained :
For example, my hall lighting can be switched from the front door, half
way along the hall were the door to the living room is, at the far end to
the kitchen, and upstairs on the landing. (you can have as many
intermediates as you want.)

'Intermediate switch' is a key word for the OP to look up where a light
is switched on or off from more than one location. You can install as
many intermediate switches on an existing two-way switched circuit as
might be needed.

On 21/12/17 10:21, Jon Fairbairn wrote:

We currently have a light at the top of the stairs (on the
upstairs lighting circuit, switched from upstairs and
downstairs) and a light at the bottom (on the downstairs
lighting circuit) switched from downstairs near the front door.

I want to change the arrangement (primarily add a switch at the
other end of the hall) and someone recently told me that if the
upstairs and downstairs lights both serve the staircase (they
do) then they should both be operated by the same switch. Is
that true?

I also want to add a light at the back end of the hall, as the
light at the front doesnt light the back very well. So that
would mean three lights in parallel, an SPDT switch upstairs,
another SPDT at the front of the hall and an intermediate switch
at the back of the hall. It would make sense from the load
balancing point of view to have this all on the upstairs
lighting circuit, but that would mean that there is a light at
the back of the hall on the upstairs lighting circuit. Is that
OK?

Im asking about regulations here, not whether it would work!

Isn't this an opportunity to use wireless switching, such as that shown
here :
https://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Main_Index/Wiring_Accessories_Menu_Index/Quinetic/index.html

You could put the switches where you want them, and add extra ones as
you think might be needed. See diagrams on page 3 of
https://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Technical/DataSheets/Quinetic/Kinetic%20Switch%20Data%20Sheet_text.pdf

--

Jeff

On 21/12/2017 10:21, Jon Fairbairn wrote:

We currently have a light at the top of the stairs (on the
upstairs lighting circuit, switched from upstairs and
downstairs) and a light at the bottom (on the downstairs
lighting circuit) switched from downstairs near the front door.

I want to change the arrangement (primarily add a switch at the
other end of the hall) and someone recently told me that if the
upstairs and downstairs lights both serve the staircase (they
do) then they should both be operated by the same switch. Is
that true?

It is desirable to be able to switch all the lights from both ends, it
could be with multiple switches though. I don't recall seeing an actual
rule that says the stair lighting should be controlled as a unit. (at
least not an electrical regs rule - there may be other building regs
that have something to say on it)

I also want to add a light at the back end of the hall, as the
light at the front doesnt light the back very well. So that
would mean three lights in parallel, an SPDT switch upstairs,
another SPDT at the front of the hall and an intermediate switch
at the back of the hall. It would make sense from the load
balancing point of view to have this all on the upstairs
lighting circuit, but that would mean that there is a light at
the back of the hall on the upstairs lighting circuit. Is that
OK?

Wiring regs wise, its ok if a little unusual. There is no hard and fast
rule that circuits must be split between floors - sometimes other
arrangements can make more sense.

Generally its better to have lights on each floor energised from the
circuit that powers that floor. (even though the switch positions may
have a gang that is made live from a different circuit - that is more
"expected" than having a lamp fitting live from a different circuit.

Im asking about regulations here, not whether it would work!



--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On Thu, 21 Dec 2017 11:14:22 +0000, Harry Bloomfield wrote:

Dave Plowman (News) explained :
For example, my hall lighting can be switched from the front door, half
way along the hall were the door to the living room is, at the far end
to the kitchen, and upstairs on the landing. (you can have as many
intermediates as you want.)

'Intermediate switch' is a key word for the OP to look up where a light
is switched on or off from more than one location. You can install as
many intermediate switches on an existing two-way switched circuit as
might be needed.

He is aware of that, and mentioned such.

I believe his question is entirely about regulations; whether you can
have multiple downstairs light fittings on an upstairs circuit.



--
My posts are my copyright and if @diy_forums or Home Owners' Hub
wish to copy them they can pay me £1 a message.
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK: http://www.mirrorservice.org
*lightning surge protection* - a w_tom conductor

On 21/12/17 10:21, Jon Fairbairn wrote:

We currently have a light at the top of the stairs (on the
upstairs lighting circuit, switched from upstairs and
downstairs) and a light at the bottom (on the downstairs
lighting circuit) switched from downstairs near the front door.

I want to change the arrangement (primarily add a switch at the
other end of the hall) and someone recently told me that if the
upstairs and downstairs lights both serve the staircase (they
do) then they should both be operated by the same switch. Is
that true?

Its certainly an opinion.


I also want to add a light at the back end of the hall, as the
light at the front doesnt light the back very well. So that
would mean three lights in parallel, an SPDT switch upstairs,
another SPDT at the front of the hall and an intermediate switch
at the back of the hall. It would make sense from the load
balancing point of view to have this all on the upstairs
lighting circuit, but that would mean that there is a light at
the back of the hall on the upstairs lighting circuit. Is that
OK?

Im asking about regulations here, not whether it would work!

I am not sure building regs cover this



--
The lifetime of any political organisation is about three years before
its been subverted by the people it tried to warn you about.

Anon.

On Thursday, 21 December 2017 10:21:37 UTC, Jon Fairbairn wrote:
We currently have a light at the top of the stairs (on the
upstairs lighting circuit, switched from upstairs and
downstairs) and a light at the bottom (on the downstairs
lighting circuit) switched from downstairs near the front door.

I want to change the arrangement (primarily add a switch at the
other end of the hall) and someone recently told me that if the
upstairs and downstairs lights both serve the staircase (they
do) then they should both be operated by the same switch. Is
that true?

I also want to add a light at the back end of the hall, as the
light at the front doesnt light the back very well. So that
would mean three lights in parallel, an SPDT switch upstairs,
another SPDT at the front of the hall and an intermediate switch
at the back of the hall. It would make sense from the load
balancing point of view to have this all on the upstairs
lighting circuit, but that would mean that there is a light at
the back of the hall on the upstairs lighting circuit. Is that
OK?

Im asking about regulations here, not whether it would work!

Regulations don't care where you put your switches or whether you have 1 or 3 lights on a switch. It's a nonissue.


NT

On 21/12/2017 11:43, Jeff Layman wrote:
On 21/12/17 10:21, Jon Fairbairn wrote:

We currently have a light at the top of the stairs (on the
upstairs lighting circuit, switched from upstairs and
downstairs) and a light at the bottom (on the downstairs
lighting circuit) switched from downstairs near the front door.

I want to change the arrangement (primarily add a switch at the
other end of the hall) and someone recently told me that if the
upstairs and downstairs lights both serve the staircase (they
do) then they should both be operated by the same switch. Is
that true?

I also want to add a light at the back end of the hall, as the
light at the front doesnt light the back very well. So that
would mean three lights in parallel, an SPDT switch upstairs,
another SPDT at the front of the hall and an intermediate switch
at the back of the hall. It would make sense from the load
balancing point of view to have this all on the upstairs
lighting circuit, but that would mean that there is a light at
the back of the hall on the upstairs lighting circuit. Is that
OK?

Im asking about regulations here, not whether it would work!

Isn't this an opportunity to use wireless switching, such as that shown
here :
https://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Main_Index/Wiring_Accessories_Menu_Index/Quinetic/index.html

Hey! The switches aren't pairing! Go upstairs with a torch and switch it
on up there! OK, now switch the lighting circuit off and on again!

--
Max Demian

In article ,
Andy Burns wrote:
Dave Plowman wrote:

my hall lighting can be switched from the front door, half
way along the hall were the door to the living room is, at the far end to
the kitchen, and upstairs on the landing. (you can have as many
intermediates as you want.)
The landing light is also switched from several places.

My landing light could be switched from the landing or the hall, but the
hall light couldn't be switched from the landing, so I dragged in an
extra 3+E cable to fix that.

No need for a switch near the front-door, I have an occupancy sensor,
more convenient when you arrive with an armful of shopping.

What if you want to go straight upstairs to the toilet? Leaving the house
and want to switch lights off? Leave the outside lights on? And so on.

One thing you can be sure of is that 'auto' lights hardly ever do exactly
what you want. ;-)

--
*I brake for no apparent reason.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
John Rumm wrote:
Generally its better to have lights on each floor energised from the
circuit that powers that floor. (even though the switch positions may
have a gang that is made live from a different circuit - that is more
"expected" than having a lamp fitting live from a different circuit.

I have all the corridor lights on their own circuit. Which then allows
working lights from a room should it trip. Also means all the switches on
one plate are on the same circuit. Not the most economical way to wire
things, though.

--
*Support bacteria - they're the only culture some people have *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

John Rumm writes:

On 21/12/2017 10:21, Jon Fairbairn wrote:
€¦someone recently told me that if the upstairs and
downstairs lights both serve the staircase (they do) then
they should both be operated by the same switch. Is that
true?

It is desirable to be able to switch all the lights from
both ends, it could be with multiple switches though. I
don't recall seeing an actual rule that says the stair
lighting should be controlled as a unit. (at least not an
electrical regs rule - there may be other building regs that
have something to say on it)

I guess they may have been thinking of building regs rather than
electrical ones.

€¦would mean that there is a light at the back of the hall on
the upstairs lighting circuit. Is that OK?

Wiring regs wise, its ok if a little unusual. There is no
hard and fast rule that circuits must be split between
floors - sometimes other arrangements can make more sense.

Thanks. That was my main concern.

Generally its better to have lights on each floor energised
from the circuit that powers that floor. (even though the
switch positions may have a gang that is made live from a
different circuit - that is more "expected" than having a
lamp fitting live from a different circuit.

Right. Its the unexpected nature of it that bothers me a bit:
wiring unexpectedly live can be more stimulating than desirable,
though given the intended switch arrangement it would be a fool
who switched off the downstairs circuit and expected it to kill
the rear hall light.

--
Jón Fairbairn
http://www.chaos.org.uk/~jf/Stuff-I-dont-want.html (updated 2014-04-05)

In article ,
Jon Fairbairn wrote:
Right. It‘s the unexpected nature of it that bothers me a bit:
wiring unexpectedly live can be more stimulating than desirable,
though given the intended switch arrangement it would be a fool
who switched off the downstairs circuit and expected it to kill
the rear hall light.

Most jobbing electricians soon learn never to take anything for granted.
;-)

--
*DON'T SWEAT THE PETTY THINGS AND DON'T PET THE SWEATY THINGS.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Thursday, 21 December 2017 15:36:45 UTC, Jon Fairbairn wrote:
John Rumm writes:

Generally its better to have lights on each floor energised
from the circuit that powers that floor. (even though the
switch positions may have a gang that is made live from a
different circuit - that is more "expected" than having a
lamp fitting live from a different circuit.

Right. Its the unexpected nature of it that bothers me a bit:

There are a whole lot more unexpected things in life than that, some of which actually matter.


NT

On 21/12/2017 12:18, Bob Eager wrote:
On Thu, 21 Dec 2017 11:14:22 +0000, Harry Bloomfield wrote:

Dave Plowman (News) explained :
For example, my hall lighting can be switched from the front door, half
way along the hall were the door to the living room is, at the far end
to the kitchen, and upstairs on the landing. (you can have as many
intermediates as you want.)

'Intermediate switch' is a key word for the OP to look up where a light
is switched on or off from more than one location. You can install as
many intermediate switches on an existing two-way switched circuit as
might be needed.

He is aware of that, and mentioned such.

I believe his question is entirely about regulations; whether you can
have multiple downstairs light fittings on an upstairs circuit.



That's how I read it.

And of course it is perfectly acceptable if the CU is properly labelled
as to what each MCB controls.

There is also a myth that you cannot have a lightswitch fed from two
different MCBs despite 90% of UK houses having got this type of
installation in the hallway switch.



--
Adam

On 21/12/2017 15:57, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Jon Fairbairn wrote:
Right. It€˜s the unexpected nature of it that bothers me a bit:
wiring unexpectedly live can be more stimulating than desirable,
though given the intended switch arrangement it would be a fool
who switched off the downstairs circuit and expected it to kill
the rear hall light.

Most jobbing electricians soon learn never to take anything for granted.
;-)


I did an EICR a few months ago. A neat looking MOD installation that was
done about somewhere around 25 years ago (an educated guess based on the
CU type and when RAF Finningley closed down) with some alterations after
the MOD had sold the property (but not IMHO to the CU).

The first thing I do on an EICR is see what each MCB controls on a one
by one basis. When I turned off the downstairs sockets MCB they stayed
on. I then flicked off other MCBs in turn until they switched off. The
immersion heater circuit (now feeding a combi boiler) was on the
downstairs socket circuit and one leg of the downstairs ring was in the
immersion MCB.


--


Adam

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Andy Burns wrote:
Dave Plowman wrote:

my hall lighting can be switched from the front door, half
way along the hall were the door to the living room is, at the far end
to
the kitchen, and upstairs on the landing. (you can have as many
intermediates as you want.)
The landing light is also switched from several places.

My landing light could be switched from the landing or the hall, but the
hall light couldn't be switched from the landing, so I dragged in an
extra 3+E cable to fix that.

No need for a switch near the front-door, I have an occupancy sensor,
more convenient when you arrive with an armful of shopping.

What if you want to go straight upstairs to the toilet?

Works fine.

Leaving the house and want to switch lights off?

They turn off auto after a specified time.

Leave the outside lights on? And so on.

There is no and so on.

One thing you can be sure of is that 'auto'
lights hardly ever do exactly what you want. ;-)

The best ones like the Hue do. Not cheap tho.