Most houses have the hall & landing lights two way switched, and have
'upstairs lights' and 'downstairs lights' breakers/fuses.

I were changing a landing light fitting t'other day & pulling the downstairs
fuse left it on.

I thought the landing light took its power from the 'downstairs' lights?

Is there an accepted way of wiring these up of is either acceptable?


--
Dave - The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk

The Medway Handyman wrote:
Most houses have the hall & landing lights two way switched, and have
'upstairs lights' and 'downstairs lights' breakers/fuses.

I were changing a landing light fitting t'other day & pulling the downstairs
fuse left it on.

I thought the landing light took its power from the 'downstairs' lights?

Is there an accepted way of wiring these up of is either acceptable?



Don't know, but mine - 10yr old build uses the upstairs circuit.

"The Medway Handyman" wrote in message
om...
Most houses have the hall & landing lights two way switched, and have
'upstairs lights' and 'downstairs lights' breakers/fuses.

I were changing a landing light fitting t'other day & pulling the
downstairs fuse left it on.

I thought the landing light took its power from the 'downstairs' lights?

Is there an accepted way of wiring these up of is either acceptable?


--
Dave - The Medway Handyman


I'll bet that you had a borrowed neutral on the landing light

Adam

The Medway Handyman pretended :
Most houses have the hall & landing lights two way switched, and have
'upstairs lights' and 'downstairs lights' breakers/fuses.

I were changing a landing light fitting t'other day & pulling the downstairs
fuse left it on.

I thought the landing light took its power from the 'downstairs' lights?

Is there an accepted way of wiring these up of is either acceptable?

I would suggest - most usual would be on the upstairs circuit.

1. It is an upstairs light.

2. It would be easier to wire if done correctly [1].

3. It will usually be the lightest loaded circuit anyway.

[1] But be aware of neutrals being borrowed from other than the circuit
it is actually fed from.

--
Regards,
Harry (M1BYT) (L)
http://www.ukradioamateur.co.uk

"ARWadsworth" wrote in message
om...

"The Medway Handyman" wrote in
message om...
Most houses have the hall & landing lights two way switched, and have
'upstairs lights' and 'downstairs lights' breakers/fuses.

I were changing a landing light fitting t'other day & pulling the
downstairs fuse left it on.

I thought the landing light took its power from the 'downstairs' lights?

Is there an accepted way of wiring these up of is either acceptable?


--
Dave - The Medway Handyman


I'll bet that you had a borrowed neutral on the landing light

Is that some sort of insider joke?
Why would borrowing a neutral have any effect or are you suggesting that
handymen don't put the switches in the correct place?

"dennis@home" wrote in message
...


"ARWadsworth" wrote in message
om...

"The Medway Handyman" wrote in
message om...
Most houses have the hall & landing lights two way switched, and have
'upstairs lights' and 'downstairs lights' breakers/fuses.

I were changing a landing light fitting t'other day & pulling the
downstairs fuse left it on.

I thought the landing light took its power from the 'downstairs' lights?

Is there an accepted way of wiring these up of is either acceptable?


--
Dave - The Medway Handyman


I'll bet that you had a borrowed neutral on the landing light

Is that some sort of insider joke?

It is not a joke. Touch a borrowed neutral. It bites.

Why would borrowing a neutral have any effect or are you suggesting that
handymen don't put the switches in the correct place?

I am suggesting that a handyman may have seen a borrowed neutral that was
installed by a bad electrician. It is not a joke, insider or otherwise.

Adam

In an earlier contribution to this discussion, Harry Bloomfield
wrote:
The Medway Handyman pretended :
Most houses have the hall & landing lights two way switched, and have
'upstairs lights' and 'downstairs lights' breakers/fuses.

I were changing a landing light fitting t'other day & pulling the
downstairs fuse left it on.

I thought the landing light took its power from the 'downstairs'
lights? Is there an accepted way of wiring these up of is either
acceptable?

I would suggest - most usual would be on the upstairs circuit.

1. It is an upstairs light.

2. It would be easier to wire if done correctly [1].

3. It will usually be the lightest loaded circuit anyway.

[1] But be aware of neutrals being borrowed from other than the
circuit it is actually fed from.

Yes, but in my house, the hall and landing lights both have 2-way
switching - with one 2-gang switch in the hall and another on the landing.
Both lights are fed from the downstairs circuit. If the hall were fed from
downstairs and the landing from upstairs, you'd have to turn off *both*
breakers in order to isolate the switches - so that *surely* can't be good
practice?
--
Cheers,
Roger
_______
Please reply to Newsgroup. Whilst email address is valid, it is seldom
checked.

The Medway Handyman wrote:
Most houses have the hall & landing lights two way switched, and have
'upstairs lights' and 'downstairs lights' breakers/fuses.

I were changing a landing light fitting t'other day & pulling the
downstairs fuse left it on.

I thought the landing light took its power from the 'downstairs'
lights?
Is there an accepted way of wiring these up of is either acceptable?


TMH,

If you don't know what you are doing, then why are you playing with such
things in a "professional" capacity?

Did you check to see if the power was off before you started playing with
the wires? If you didn't, then that was two 'cardinal sins' committed:

1 You lack the qualifications to carry out such work in any capacity
(amateur [as a handyman] or professional).
2 You lack knowledge of the required safety procedures to carry out
such work.

Perhaps now that you are a handyman running a business, then perhaps the HSE
ought to be informed about your lack of safety procedures (both for yourself
and your customers safety) and asked to visit you at your registered
business address [1] to make you aware of them before an accident (or
incident) occurs.

Note: that this really isn't a personal attack or wind-up ( I can't be
bothered tonight) but simply an observation from the comments and questions
that you post on this group - many of those really do raise serious doubts
as to your capabilities for *SAFELY* doing some of the work you do as a
"professional" Handyman.

Remember that if a person is injured or killed by your incompetence in doing
a job, then it's you (as a sole trader) who carries the can - along with
possibly serving a stretch at 'Her Majesty's Pleasure' and for paying any
awarded compensation.

As I said, this is a valid observation, but I am expecting your normal
vitriolic reply to such comments - along with your favourite acronym -- FOAD
(but before you use that one, reflect on my last paragraph) -- so thinking
of *YOUR* safety by preventing an incidence of Repetitive Strain Injury -
DON'T bother to reply if that's the response.

1 If you have one that is. If not, then your home address.

On Sat, 06 Feb 2010 20:15:56 GMT, The Medway Handyman wrote:

Most houses have the hall & landing lights two way switched, and have
'upstairs lights' and 'downstairs lights' breakers/fuses.

I were changing a landing light fitting t'other day & pulling the downstairs
fuse left it on.

I thought the landing light took its power from the 'downstairs' lights?

Is there an accepted way of wiring these up of is either acceptable?

Our are on the upstairs circuit and this has proved very useful - in the
early hours of one morning we walked in and turned the hall light on, a
bulb blew and tripped the breaker, but of course the other downstairs
lights were on their own breaker and so by opening the kitchen door, we
could get enough light to see the alarm keypad to disarm it before we woke
half the street!

SteveW

Roger Mills wrote:
In an earlier contribution to this discussion, Harry Bloomfield
wrote:
The Medway Handyman pretended :
Most houses have the hall & landing lights two way switched, and
have 'upstairs lights' and 'downstairs lights' breakers/fuses.

I were changing a landing light fitting t'other day & pulling the
downstairs fuse left it on.

I thought the landing light took its power from the 'downstairs'
lights? Is there an accepted way of wiring these up of is either
acceptable?

I would suggest - most usual would be on the upstairs circuit.

1. It is an upstairs light.

2. It would be easier to wire if done correctly [1].

3. It will usually be the lightest loaded circuit anyway.

[1] But be aware of neutrals being borrowed from other than the
circuit it is actually fed from.

Yes, but in my house, the hall and landing lights both have 2-way
switching - with one 2-gang switch in the hall and another on the
landing. Both lights are fed from the downstairs circuit. If the hall
were fed from downstairs and the landing from upstairs, you'd have to
turn off *both* breakers in order to isolate the switches - so that
*surely* can't be good practice?

Exactly my thoughts Roger.


--
Dave - The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk

On Sat, 06 Feb 2010 21:04:19 GMT, wrote:

On 6 Feb,
"The Medway Handyman" wrote:

Most houses have the hall & landing lights two way switched, and have
'upstairs lights' and 'downstairs lights' breakers/fuses.

I were changing a landing light fitting t'other day & pulling the
downstairs fuse left it on.

I thought the landing light took its power from the 'downstairs' lights?

Is there an accepted way of wiring these up of is either acceptable?

There doesn't. BEWARE! One recent installation I was checking had the
hall/landing lights fed from both upstairs and downstairs circuits, depending
on which way the 2 way switches were set, due to a mistake in the wiring.

Personally, I'd prefer them both fed from the same circuit, preferably the
downstairs* circuit, to prevent this problem.

A problem I had with the installation in this house was skimping on the
neutral, connecting the landing light to the downstairs live and the upstairs
neutral, found out the hard way!

* Marginally safer in allowing lights on the stairs to get down if the
upstairs lights fail. (If downstairs lights fail an upstairs light will
usually light the stairs with a door left open.)

On the other hand some houses don't actually have a downstairs light,
relying only on an upstairs one (particularly where there's an open
staircase in the living room). If there were to be a convention, it would
therefore make sense for the landing/hall lights to be on the upstairs
circuit.

SteveW

Unbeliever wrote:
The Medway Handyman wrote:
Most houses have the hall & landing lights two way switched, and have
'upstairs lights' and 'downstairs lights' breakers/fuses.

I were changing a landing light fitting t'other day & pulling the
downstairs fuse left it on.

I thought the landing light took its power from the 'downstairs'
lights?
Is there an accepted way of wiring these up of is either acceptable?


TMH,

If you don't know what you are doing, then why are you playing with
such things in a "professional" capacity?

Oh dear, its the ****wit again. Don't you have a life? Are you Unbeliever
tonight? Or Tanner OP? Or Squared?

Did you check to see if the power was off before you started playing
with the wires? If you didn't, then that was two 'cardinal sins'
committed:

Of course I didn't check **** for brains, I regularly try to electrocute
myself. I only bought the volt stick & DMM because I like the pretty red
lights.

1 You lack the qualifications to carry out such work in any
capacity (amateur [as a handyman] or professional).

No I don't idiot boy. I can carry out any like for like replacement, but
you are clearly too ****ing stupid to understand that. Refer to Part P of
the Buiding Regs, but take it slowly, it contains long words you won't
understand.

2 You lack knowledge of the required safety procedures to carry
out such work.

Of course I do. I look forward to electrocution on a daily basis.

Perhaps now that you are a handyman running a business, then perhaps
the HSE ought to be informed about your lack of safety procedures
(both for yourself and your customers safety) and asked to visit you
at your registered business address [1] to make you aware of them
before an accident (or incident) occurs.

Thats your problem isn't it ****wit. You always wanted to start a business,
but were a complete ****** who couldn't cut the mustard. More likely your
wife wouldn't let you. Promotion to 'foreman' was your only achievement.
This has left you so bitter & twisted you attack anyone who has succeeded.

Note: that this really isn't a personal attack or wind-up ( I can't be
bothered tonight) but simply an observation from the comments and
questions that you post on this group - many of those really do raise
serious doubts as to your capabilities for *SAFELY* doing some of the
work you do as a "professional" Handyman.

Oh it isn't a personal attack? Then what is it? A constructive comment? A
helpful reply?

Its a personal attack from a bitter twisted ****** who failed to achieve
anything.

Remember that if a person is injured or killed by your incompetence
in doing a job, then it's you (as a sole trader) who carries the can
- along with possibly serving a stretch at 'Her Majesty's Pleasure'
and for paying any awarded compensation.

Just as well I'm a competant person who only does like for like
replacements, which fall outside of Part P of the Building Regs, and that I
carry £2 million public liability insurance, and have the approval of
Trading Standards.

As I said, this is a valid observation, but I am expecting your normal
vitriolic reply to such comments - along with your favourite acronym
-- FOAD (but before you use that one, reflect on my last paragraph)
-- so thinking of *YOUR* safety by preventing an incidence of
Repetitive Strain Injury - DON'T bother to reply if that's the
response.

Its not a valid observation you sad little ******, its a personal attack to
make you feel better about being an absolute failure in life.

The only Repetitive Strain Injury is you wanking youself silly.

1 If you have one that is. If not, then your home address.

All on the website ****wit, 100% in accordance with the requirement of
Trading Standards.

Anything else to say? Bring it on so I can rip the **** out of you again.

Tosser.


--
Dave - The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk

dennis@home wrote:
"ARWadsworth" wrote in message
om...

"The Medway Handyman" wrote in
message om...
Most houses have the hall & landing lights two way switched, and
have 'upstairs lights' and 'downstairs lights' breakers/fuses.

I were changing a landing light fitting t'other day & pulling the
downstairs fuse left it on.

I thought the landing light took its power from the 'downstairs'
lights? Is there an accepted way of wiring these up of is either
acceptable?


--
Dave - The Medway Handyman


I'll bet that you had a borrowed neutral on the landing light

Is that some sort of insider joke?
Why would borrowing a neutral have any effect or are you suggesting
that handymen don't put the switches in the correct place?

Handymen don't 'put' switches anywhere. They replace like for like.


--
Dave - The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk

The Medway Handyman wrote:
Unbeliever wrote:
The Medway Handyman wrote:
Most houses have the hall & landing lights two way switched, and
have 'upstairs lights' and 'downstairs lights' breakers/fuses.

I were changing a landing light fitting t'other day & pulling the
downstairs fuse left it on.

I thought the landing light took its power from the 'downstairs'
lights?
Is there an accepted way of wiring these up of is either acceptable?


TMH,

If you don't know what you are doing, then why are you playing with
such things in a "professional" capacity?

Oh dear, its the ****wit again. Don't you have a life? Are you
Unbeliever tonight? Or Tanner OP? Or Squared?

Did you check to see if the power was off before you started playing
with the wires? If you didn't, then that was two 'cardinal sins'
committed:

Of course I didn't check **** for brains, I regularly try to
electrocute myself. I only bought the volt stick & DMM because I
like the pretty red lights.

1 You lack the qualifications to carry out such work in any
capacity (amateur [as a handyman] or professional).

No I don't idiot boy. I can carry out any like for like replacement,
but you are clearly too ****ing stupid to understand that. Refer to
Part P of the Buiding Regs, but take it slowly, it contains long
words you won't understand.

2 You lack knowledge of the required safety procedures to carry
out such work.

Of course I do. I look forward to electrocution on a daily basis.

Perhaps now that you are a handyman running a business, then perhaps
the HSE ought to be informed about your lack of safety procedures
(both for yourself and your customers safety) and asked to visit you
at your registered business address [1] to make you aware of them
before an accident (or incident) occurs.

Thats your problem isn't it ****wit. You always wanted to start a
business, but were a complete ****** who couldn't cut the mustard.
More likely your wife wouldn't let you. Promotion to 'foreman' was
your only achievement. This has left you so bitter & twisted you
attack anyone who has succeeded.
Note: that this really isn't a personal attack or wind-up ( I can't
be bothered tonight) but simply an observation from the comments and
questions that you post on this group - many of those really do raise
serious doubts as to your capabilities for *SAFELY* doing some of the
work you do as a "professional" Handyman.

Oh it isn't a personal attack? Then what is it? A constructive
comment? A helpful reply?

Its a personal attack from a bitter twisted ****** who failed to
achieve anything.

Remember that if a person is injured or killed by your incompetence
in doing a job, then it's you (as a sole trader) who carries the can
- along with possibly serving a stretch at 'Her Majesty's Pleasure'
and for paying any awarded compensation.

Just as well I'm a competant person who only does like for like
replacements, which fall outside of Part P of the Building Regs, and
that I carry £2 million public liability insurance, and have the
approval of Trading Standards.

As I said, this is a valid observation, but I am expecting your
normal vitriolic reply to such comments - along with your favourite
acronym -- FOAD (but before you use that one, reflect on my last
paragraph)
-- so thinking of *YOUR* safety by preventing an incidence of
Repetitive Strain Injury - DON'T bother to reply if that's the
response.

Its not a valid observation you sad little ******, its a personal
attack to make you feel better about being an absolute failure in
life.
The only Repetitive Strain Injury is you wanking youself silly.

1 If you have one that is. If not, then your home address.

All on the website ****wit, 100% in accordance with the requirement of
Trading Standards.

Anything else to say? Bring it on so I can rip the **** out of you
again.


Hmm? TMH, was it the smidgeon of smoked eel on the hook or the wriggling
shrimp? You took that one hook, line and sinker I think.

For what it is worth, the poster epitomises the Elfin Safety prats that
should be first aboard Douglas Adams' spaceship.

On Sat, 06 Feb 2010 21:04:19 GMT, wrote:

On 6 Feb,
"The Medway Handyman" wrote:

Most houses have the hall & landing lights two way switched, and have
'upstairs lights' and 'downstairs lights' breakers/fuses.

I were changing a landing light fitting t'other day & pulling the
downstairs fuse left it on.

I thought the landing light took its power from the 'downstairs' lights?

Is there an accepted way of wiring these up of is either acceptable?

There doesn't. BEWARE! One recent installation I was checking had the
hall/landing lights fed from both upstairs and downstairs circuits, depending
on which way the 2 way switches were set, due to a mistake in the wiring.

Personally, I'd prefer them both fed from the same circuit, preferably the
downstairs* circuit, to prevent this problem.

Possibly the best solution would be to have a completely separate
circuit (clearly labelled at the CU) for the hall/landing lights, in
view of the safety aspect of lighting a staircase.
Be careful though - some landing/hall switches also serve to do
vestibule ('lobby') lighting (typically in older townhouses), and it's
not a very good idea to have a, say, triple-gang, switch fed from more
than one fuse/MCB, in a domestic scenario.


A problem I had with the installation in this house was skimping on the
neutral, connecting the landing light to the downstairs live and the upstairs
neutral, found out the hard way!

I was involved with a small theatre a while ago. In the 'studio'
there were fluorescent 'working' lights and a couple of tracks with
R80 type spots (as well as the usual lighting bar/dimmerpack stuff).

The fluoros and the spots were fed from separate fuses in a Wylex
2-way switch-fuse.

I was replacing the fluoros (for twin luminaires) using the spots for
working light; I disconnected the (conduited) wiring from one of the
fluoros and the place fell into total darkness - the neutral had been
shared between both sets of lighting. Fortunately I had a Dragonlight
and a headlight handy, and had been following the good practice of
keeping fingers clear of screwdriver blades whilst 'dissing' (or
connecting) wires.

All this carry-on for the sake of saving a few feet (probably less
than 20') of black 3/0.029 wire...

* Marginally safer in allowing lights on the stairs to get down if the
upstairs lights fail. (If downstairs lights fail an upstairs light will
usually light the stairs with a door left open.)

Indeed.

--
Frank Erskine

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember "Unbeliever"
saying something like:

TMH,

If you don't know what you are doing, then why are you playing with such
things in a "professional" capacity?

Snip ****e.

Why don't you **** off back to the log you live under?

Frank Erskine wrote:
On Sat, 06 Feb 2010 21:04:19 GMT, wrote:

On 6 Feb,
"The Medway Handyman" wrote:

Most houses have the hall & landing lights two way switched, and
have 'upstairs lights' and 'downstairs lights' breakers/fuses.

I were changing a landing light fitting t'other day & pulling the
downstairs fuse left it on.

I thought the landing light took its power from the 'downstairs'
lights?

Is there an accepted way of wiring these up of is either acceptable?

There doesn't. BEWARE! One recent installation I was checking had the
hall/landing lights fed from both upstairs and downstairs circuits,
depending on which way the 2 way switches were set, due to a mistake
in the wiring.

Personally, I'd prefer them both fed from the same circuit,
preferably the downstairs* circuit, to prevent this problem.

Possibly the best solution would be to have a completely separate
circuit (clearly labelled at the CU) for the hall/landing lights, in
view of the safety aspect of lighting a staircase.
Be careful though - some landing/hall switches also serve to do
vestibule ('lobby') lighting (typically in older townhouses), and it's
not a very good idea to have a, say, triple-gang, switch fed from more
than one fuse/MCB, in a domestic scenario.

Whilst not a fan of the Elfin Safety mob, I think your suggestion has legs.
If I were to build/ purchase a new house, I would ask for that, having had a
belt from the landing light switch of a block of four flats designed for and
occupied by elderly folk, (despite having been assured that the landing
lighting was run through one specific meter for the upstairs flats).

Grimly Curmudgeon wrote:
We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember "Unbeliever"
saying something like:

TMH,

If you don't know what you are doing, then why are you playing with
such things in a "professional" capacity?

Snip ****e.

Why don't you **** off back to the log you live under?

You swine, Sir! I've now got a vin rouge haze upon the screen in front of
me. However, well said.

"John Rumm" wrote in message
news
Unbeliever wrote:

TMH,

If you don't know what you are doing, then why are you playing with such
things in a "professional" capacity?

The question seemed perfectly reasonable since there are a variety of
ways - some more common than others - used for these two way switching
arrangements.

The real question is, having found such a wiring case can he fix it legally?
Its not legal to leave it in a dangerous condition and it would appear to be
in a dangerous condition.
Even if its not dangerous to the occupier its still not legal to leave it if
its dangerous to for example, another handyman.

"John Rumm" wrote in message
...
dennis@home wrote:


"John Rumm" wrote in message
news
Unbeliever wrote:

TMH,

If you don't know what you are doing, then why are you playing with
such things in a "professional" capacity?

The question seemed perfectly reasonable since there are a variety of
ways - some more common than others - used for these two way switching
arrangements.

The real question is, having found such a wiring case can he fix it
legally?

Of course...

Its not legal to leave it in a dangerous condition and it would appear to
be in a dangerous condition.

Not really - even wiring to the 17th edition using the "standard"
arrangement with 3&E run between floors to facilitate the "other" two way
switch, you will still have a switch position containing live wires from
two separate circuits.

Why?
You have live running to the top switch, two switched lives from the top
switch to the bottom switch and one switched live running back to the
fitting, only one live circuit is needed and no neutrals run down the cable
at all. Operating the switches will either turn the light on and off if the
wrong circuit is isolated or do nothing.


Even if its not dangerous to the occupier its still not legal to leave it
if its dangerous to for example, another handyman.

If it were truly dangerous, then yes one would either have to refuse to do
the work, or only agree if one were also allowed to rectify the cause of
the danger (or find an alternative workaround). However this is not
necessarily one of those situations. If working on a switch that is known
to switch lamps notionally covered by two different circuits, then its a
fair assumption that you may need to isolate both circuits to make it safe
to work on.

Cases with borrowed neutrals are certainly examples of poor practice - but
again its fairly common poor practice!

Well they are done by electricians and they aren't all the brightest of
people. ;-)

Clot wrote:
The Medway Handyman wrote:
Unbeliever wrote:
The Medway Handyman wrote:
Most houses have the hall & landing lights two way switched, and
have 'upstairs lights' and 'downstairs lights' breakers/fuses.

I were changing a landing light fitting t'other day & pulling the
downstairs fuse left it on.

I thought the landing light took its power from the 'downstairs'
lights?
Is there an accepted way of wiring these up of is either
acceptable?


TMH,


Replying to TMH btw Clot

If you don't know what you are doing, then why are you playing with
such things in a "professional" capacity?

Oh dear, its the ****wit again. Don't you have a life? Are you
Unbeliever tonight? Or Tanner OP? Or Squared?

Unbeliever for sure - Tanner Op was an old dance hall - and Squared was
well... squared - and you are full of paranoia about one or two posting
here - nope, I definitely an Unbeliever!!

Did you check to see if the power was off before you started playing
with the wires? If you didn't, then that was two 'cardinal sins'
committed:

Of course I didn't check **** for brains, I regularly try to
electrocute myself. I only bought the volt stick & DMM because I
like the pretty red lights.

Yep, you like pretty "lights" don't you TMH, especially when you can't
understand how they work! And when are you going to "offer for sale" here
your "volt stick & DMM" as 'surplus stock'?

1 You lack the qualifications to carry out such work in any
capacity (amateur [as a handyman] or professional).

No I don't idiot boy. I can carry out any like for like replacement,
but you are clearly too ****ing stupid to understand that. Refer to
Part P of the Buiding Regs, but take it slowly, it contains long
words you won't understand.

I suspect that you are NOT qualified for the job - and you really do seem
incapable on occasions!

2 You lack knowledge of the required safety procedures to
carry out such work.

Of course I do. I look forward to electrocution on a daily basis.

A "bright spark" I see then - but a rather dim light most of the time!

Perhaps now that you are a handyman running a business, then perhaps
the HSE ought to be informed about your lack of safety procedures
(both for yourself and your customers safety) and asked to visit you
at your registered business address [1] to make you aware of them
before an accident (or incident) occurs.

Thats your problem isn't it ****wit. You always wanted to start a
business, but were a complete ****** who couldn't cut the mustard.
More likely your wife wouldn't let you. Promotion to 'foreman' was
your only achievement. This has left you so bitter & twisted you
attack anyone who has succeeded.

Never wanted the hassle of running a business or being ' t'boss ' - as for
"cutting the mustard", can't stand the stuff, as for being "bitter and
twisted" - well I must admit, it would be impossible to match you on that!

Note: that this really isn't a personal attack or wind-up ( I can't
be bothered tonight) but simply an observation from the comments and
questions that you post on this group - many of those really do
raise serious doubts as to your capabilities for *SAFELY* doing
some of the work you do as a "professional" Handyman.

Oh it isn't a personal attack? Then what is it? A constructive
comment? A helpful reply?

Just as it said - but you cannot stand anyone criticising you - in other
words, you like to give it, but certainly can't take it!

Its a personal attack from a bitter twisted ****** who failed to
achieve anything.

Achievements, I have many - but I don't brag about them here! Failed in
what? But yes, I have 'failed' (who hasn't) in some things - but unlike you,
I put them down to experience and learned from them

Remember that if a person is injured or killed by your incompetence
in doing a job, then it's you (as a sole trader) who carries the can
- along with possibly serving a stretch at 'Her Majesty's Pleasure'
and for paying any awarded compensation.

Just as well I'm a competant person who only does like for like
replacements, which fall outside of Part P of the Building Regs, and
that I carry £2 million public liability insurance, and have the
approval of Trading Standards.

Please describe what a "competent person" and what is the difference between
that and a "qualified person".

Does that insurance cover you for incompetence, and if you are relying on
that if things go wrong, well....that speaks volumes about you.

And are Trading Standards the same as the HSE? Try asking Trading Standards
to sort out a risky scaffolding etc - and see what they say! Conversely,
try reporting to the HSE the fact that a store is trying to con you out of
your rights to return faulty goods - they will be most polite in telling you
where to stick that complaint. ;-)

As I said, this is a valid observation, but I am expecting your
normal vitriolic reply to such comments - along with your favourite
acronym -- FOAD (but before you use that one, reflect on my last
paragraph)
-- so thinking of *YOUR* safety by preventing an incidence of
Repetitive Strain Injury - DON'T bother to reply if that's the
response.

Its not a valid observation you sad little ******, its a personal
attack to make you feel better about being an absolute failure in
life.

Are you a qualified electrician, are you a qulified trademan of any sort?

As for failure, that is a relative word, I suspect that you have failed in
many things - but your ego won't let you admit it!

The only Repetitive Strain Injury is you wanking youself silly.

Ah, another tosspot talking - but I suppose you spend too much time here
bragging about you exploits, asking for information (that you really should
know about as a pseudo- pro) and slagging-off the odd client or two - with
no time left for a bit of hand-relief on yourself - your life must be
awfully drab and soulless?

1 If you have one that is. If not, then your home address.

All on the website ****wit, 100% in accordance with the requirement
of Trading Standards.

Trading Standards is sod-all to to do with HSE - try looking it up.

Anything else to say? Bring it on so I can rip the **** out of you
again.

"Rip the **** out of..." - now that shows the level of your expertise! How
the hell can you rip a liquid out of something???? Bejusus and you reckon
that as a handyman, you're a pro? I think not!

--------------------

Hmm? TMH, was it the smidgeon of smoked eel on the hook or the
wriggling shrimp? You took that one hook, line and sinker I think.



Now replying to Clot

Not really Clot, but it elicited the reply that I expected - all great fun!

For what it is worth, the poster epitomises the Elfin Safety prats
that should be first aboard Douglas Adams' spaceship.

No I am not one of those "Elfin Safety prats".

Health and Safety interpretations really have gone too far in many instances
in this country - and that is down to the litigious culture being cultivated
by many who must blame anybody but themselves when things go wrong.

But I do believe that it has a part to play in the workplace, there are too
many killed in all industries for it not have that place - and TMH, as a
Sole Trader, should know that.

In an earlier contribution to this discussion, John Rumm
wrote:

Cases with borrowed neutrals are certainly examples of poor practice -
but again its fairly common poor practice!


It probably ony shows up if and when you add RCD protection to the circuits!
--
Cheers,
Roger
_______
Please reply to Newsgroup. Whilst email address is valid, it is seldom
checked.

dennis@home has brought this to us :
The real question is, having found such a wiring case can he fix it legally?
Its not legal to leave it in a dangerous condition and it would appear to be
in a dangerous condition.
Even if its not dangerous to the occupier its still not legal to leave it if
its dangerous to for example, another handyman.

Perhaps he cannot legally resolve the problem, so what he should do is
flag up the problem to the owner of the property and let them then
employ someone suitably qualified to resolve it.

--
Regards,
Harry (M1BYT) (L)
http://www.ukradioamateur.co.uk

The Medway Handyman wrote:
Most houses have the hall & landing lights two way switched, and have
'upstairs lights' and 'downstairs lights' breakers/fuses.

I were changing a landing light fitting t'other day & pulling the downstairs
fuse left it on.

I thought the landing light took its power from the 'downstairs' lights?

I've never come across that arrangement. It would appear to me to be a
dangerous practice to have an upstairs light on a circuit marked
'downstairs'

Is there an accepted way of wiring these up of is either acceptable?

I would expect the hall light to be on the downstairs light circuit and
the landing light to be on the upstairs cisuit. That way, if one circuit
fails, you still have light in the stairwell, which is one of the most
dangerous places in a house not to have any light. I also have an
emergency light above the stairs, in case of a total power failure.

Colin Bignell

"Roger Mills" wrote in message
...
In an earlier contribution to this discussion, John Rumm
wrote:

Cases with borrowed neutrals are certainly examples of poor practice -
but again its fairly common poor practice!


It probably ony shows up if and when you add RCD protection to the
circuits!
--
Cheers,
Roger


Or when you changing a lightfitting and break the neutral connection:-)

Adam

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember "ARWadsworth"
saying something like:

It probably ony shows up if and when you add RCD protection to the
circuits!


Or when you changing a lightfitting and break the neutral connection:-)

Or when you change a light fitting and get bitten by the floating
neutral. Btdtgtts.

After serious thinking dennis@home wrote :
How is that a borrowed neutral?
Only one neutral is connected, its the two lives that's the problem.
Using proper three core and earth makes the whole thing somewhat easier.

The neutral used for that section of circuit in the diagram supplied by
the downstairs circuit, is the neutral intended for the upstairs
circuit - it is therefore 'borrowed'. I agree that if the live for the
upstairs circuit were used, that there would not be a problem.

--
Regards,
Harry (M1BYT) (L)
http://www.ukradioamateur.co.uk

In article ,
Roger Mills wrote:
Yes, but in my house, the hall and landing lights both have 2-way
switching - with one 2-gang switch in the hall and another on the
landing. Both lights are fed from the downstairs circuit. If the hall
were fed from downstairs and the landing from upstairs, you'd have to
turn off *both* breakers in order to isolate the switches - so that
*surely* can't be good practice?

I have three lighting circuits covering three floors. All multi way
switched. On the first floor I have three circuits on one plate. If one
circuit should trip, there will be enough spill from another to see your
way out.

Only a fool assumes a circuit is dead without checking before working on
it in a place strange to them. What seems logical to one may not to
another. Another example here is the light inside the cellar door where
the CU is. That isn't on the ground floor circuit for good reason. The CU
is clearly and accurately labelled, though.

--
*Arkansas State Motto: Don't Ask, Don't Tell, Don't Laugh.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"John Rumm" wrote in message
o.uk...
dennis@home wrote:

Not really - even wiring to the 17th edition using the "standard"
arrangement with 3&E run between floors to facilitate the "other" two
way switch, you will still have a switch position containing live wires
from two separate circuits.

Why?
You have live running to the top switch, two switched lives from the top
switch to the bottom switch and one switched live running back to the
fitting, only one live circuit is needed and no neutrals run down the
cable at all. Operating the switches will either turn the light on and
off if the wrong circuit is isolated or do nothing.

And that means the bottom two gang light switch has lives from the
upstairs and downstairs circuits. (and the upstairs likewise if two way
switching is implemented in both directions).

If its a two gang then the lives can come from any circuit, there isn't a
rule that says otherwise.

"John Rumm" wrote in message
o.uk...
dennis@home wrote:


"John Rumm" wrote in message
o.uk...
dennis@home wrote:

Not really - even wiring to the 17th edition using the "standard"
arrangement with 3&E run between floors to facilitate the "other" two
way switch, you will still have a switch position containing live
wires from two separate circuits.

Why?
You have live running to the top switch, two switched lives from the
top switch to the bottom switch and one switched live running back to
the fitting, only one live circuit is needed and no neutrals run down
the cable at all. Operating the switches will either turn the light on
and off if the wrong circuit is isolated or do nothing.

And that means the bottom two gang light switch has lives from the
upstairs and downstairs circuits. (and the upstairs likewise if two way
switching is implemented in both directions).

If its a two gang then the lives can come from any circuit, there isn't a
rule that says otherwise.

The live must come from the same circuit that the neutral returns two.
This normally means that the light on each storey will connect to the
neutral belonging to the circuit feeding that storey, hence the live needs
to come from there also.

I have drawn an example of double two way switching using the 17th (and
16th for that matter) edition recommended way of wiring two way switches
he

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?...tching_circuit

No borrowed neutrals (so RCBO safe), feed to each lamp from the adjacent
circuit for the storey, but two circuits live conductors present at each
two gang switch.

That's how I do them.

"Cicero" wrote in message
news

Does this mean that RCBOs on the two circuits connected by a borrowed
neutral will be ineffective? Would there be any direct danger in putting
RCBOs into such an arrangement?


It should result in lots of interruptions in supply as the RCD part trips
(although bad joints, etc. might actually prevent this).

If so, is removing the borrowed neutral the only remedy?

Yes or the RCD.

"dennis@home" wrote in message
...


"John Rumm" wrote in message


http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?...tching_circuit

No borrowed neutrals (so RCBO safe), feed to each lamp from the adjacent
circuit for the storey, but two circuits live conductors present at each
two gang switch.

That's how I do them.

Except for the error I just noticed.. the top live should be to the common.

"dennis@home" wrote in message
...


"dennis@home" wrote in message
...


"John Rumm" wrote in message


http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?...tching_circuit

No borrowed neutrals (so RCBO safe), feed to each lamp from the adjacent
circuit for the storey, but two circuits live conductors present at each
two gang switch.

That's how I do them.

Except for the error I just noticed.. the top live should be to the
common.


You've lost me.

I cannot see an error.

Adam

"John Rumm" wrote in message
...
dennis@home wrote:


"dennis@home" wrote in message
...


"John Rumm" wrote in message


http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?...tching_circuit

No borrowed neutrals (so RCBO safe), feed to each lamp from the
adjacent circuit for the storey, but two circuits live conductors
present at each two gang switch.

That's how I do them.

So why did you previously say: "If its a two gang then the lives can come
from any circuit, there isn't a rule that says otherwise."?

Except for the error I just noticed.. the top live should be to the
common.

looks fine to me. Same arrangement top and bottom.

Having had another look I agree it works.
Its not how I do them after all.

I wire live to common, then connect L1 to L1 and L2 to L2 using two of the
cores and common back to the switched live using the third core.
An intermediate just connects to the pair between the Ls.

Your way saves a joint BTW.

Cicero expressed precisely :
Does this mean that RCBOs on the two circuits connected by a borrowed
neutral will be ineffective? Would there be any direct danger in putting
RCBOs into such an arrangement?

It means that every time the light with the borrowed neutral is turned
on, that it will trip due to the imbalance.

If so, is removing the borrowed neutral the only remedy?

That is the only solution to preventing the tripping, other than
removal of the RCBO's.

--
Regards,
Harry (M1BYT) (L)
http://www.ukradioamateur.co.uk

"John Rumm" wrote in message
o.uk...
dennis@home wrote:


"John Rumm" wrote in message
...
dennis@home wrote:


"dennis@home" wrote in message
...


"John Rumm" wrote in message


http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?...tching_circuit

No borrowed neutrals (so RCBO safe), feed to each lamp from the
adjacent circuit for the storey, but two circuits live conductors
present at each two gang switch.

That's how I do them.

So why did you previously say: "If its a two gang then the lives can
come from any circuit, there isn't a rule that says otherwise."?

Except for the error I just noticed.. the top live should be to the
common.

looks fine to me. Same arrangement top and bottom.

Having had another look I agree it works.
Its not how I do them after all.

I wire live to common, then connect L1 to L1 and L2 to L2 using two of
the cores and common back to the switched live using the third core.

That sounds like you would be "exporting" the local live to the other
switch then. If so, how do you get the matching neutral there as well?

All the switches and cables are in the switched live bit so it uses the same
live and neutral that would be in the rose on a normal switch drop.

On 7 Feb, 11:12, "Roger Mills" wrote:
In an earlier contribution to this discussion, John Rumm

wrote:

Cases with borrowed neutrals are certainly examples of poor practice -
but again its fairly common poor practice!

It probably ony shows up if and when you add RCD protection to the circuits!
--
Cheers,
Roger
_______
Please reply to Newsgroup. Whilst email address is valid, it is seldom
checked.

Yep - been there, borrowed a neutral many years before, and then
couldn't understand why a particular light would trip the RCD in the
new CU. Took several months of trying various things before memory
kicked in ! It was all the more naughty in that the neutral had been
borrowed from power circuit - logic at the time being that it was the
nearest!!

Rob

"John Rumm" wrote in message
o.uk...
dennis@home wrote:


"John Rumm" wrote in message
o.uk...
dennis@home wrote:


"John Rumm" wrote in message
...
dennis@home wrote:


"dennis@home" wrote in message
...


"John Rumm" wrote in message


http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?...tching_circuit

No borrowed neutrals (so RCBO safe), feed to each lamp from the
adjacent circuit for the storey, but two circuits live conductors
present at each two gang switch.

That's how I do them.

So why did you previously say: "If its a two gang then the lives can
come from any circuit, there isn't a rule that says otherwise."?

Except for the error I just noticed.. the top live should be to the
common.

looks fine to me. Same arrangement top and bottom.

Having had another look I agree it works.
Its not how I do them after all.

I wire live to common, then connect L1 to L1 and L2 to L2 using two of
the cores and common back to the switched live using the third core.

That sounds like you would be "exporting" the local live to the other
switch then. If so, how do you get the matching neutral there as well?

All the switches and cables are in the switched live bit so it uses the
same live and neutral that would be in the rose on a normal switch drop.

perhaps I am having difficulty visualising it. Still never mind, it sounds
like we are describing a subtle variation of the same thing.


--
Cheers,

John.

I believe I have seen this before.

At the first lightswitch there is the perm live and switched live from the
fitting. Perm live goes to common and the 3 core is connected to L1 and L2
of the switch with the 3rd core connected to the switched live with a piece
of strip connector.
At the second lightswitch L1 and L2 use the same two cores connected to L1
and L2 of the first lightswitch and the 3rd core goes to common.

You just need a piece of paper and a pen to visualise it

Adam

ARWadsworth wrote:

"dennis@home" wrote in message
...


"ARWadsworth" wrote in message
om...

"The Medway Handyman" wrote in
message om...
Most houses have the hall & landing lights two way switched, and
have 'upstairs lights' and 'downstairs lights' breakers/fuses.

I were changing a landing light fitting t'other day & pulling the
downstairs fuse left it on.

I thought the landing light took its power from the 'downstairs'
lights?

Is there an accepted way of wiring these up of is either acceptable?


--
Dave - The Medway Handyman


I'll bet that you had a borrowed neutral on the landing light

Is that some sort of insider joke?

It is not a joke. Touch a borrowed neutral. It bites.


Which is why I don't want to mess with the electrics in our new house in the
slightest!

All switches and sockets are very nice brushed steel finish (or chrome or
whatever the design is called).

No problem with the sockets, but on any of the light switches (some are
dimmers, some are regular switches) you can usually feel a very faint tingle,
the same sort of tingle you get if you touch the metal case of a double
insulated appliance (where the case is connected to 0v DC but not to the
house earth).

Now part of me is wondering if this is because the 1960s/1970s house has two
core twin cable feeding the lighting circuits (ie no earth) and some bright
spark(y) in the past has decided it is a good idea to connect the faceplates
to neutral as there's no earth, so that should there be ever be a fault where
the faceplate could become live, it will blow the protecting fuse.

All it takes is for there to be a borrowed neutral and removing one or the
other of the upstairs or downstairs lighting fuses could mean that the other
switches become live!

In article ,
chunkyoldcortina wrote:
Now part of me is wondering if this is because the 1960s/1970s house has
two core twin cable feeding the lighting circuits (ie no earth) and
some bright spark(y) in the past has decided it is a good idea to
connect the faceplates to neutral as there's no earth, so that should
there be ever be a fault where the faceplate could become live, it will
blow the protecting fuse.

I'd get it sorted pronto. All the metal faced switches I've seen say they
*must* be earthed. If your wiring is so old it doesn't have an ECC, either
replace that (best way) or change to plastic switches.

--
*Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.