My back door is like this.
I think its pretty standard.
Brian

--
----- -
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...

Blind user, so no pictures please!
"James Wilkinson Sword" wrote in message
news
Are all locks designed this badly? I just had to break into my
neighbour's house because he'd left a key on the inside of the lock, which
prevented him from using a key on te outside of the lock. Can't they be
made so the keys don't reach each other? It must be seperate barrels, or
the key being the other way round wouldn't work unless it was symmetrical.
There was only about 3mm in it!

On 03/10/2017 23:28, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
SNAFU.* Situation normal, all ****ed up.* Nobody thinks before designing
things.

There may well be a reason - with many traditional locks you can slide a
button on the inside, which prevents a key being used from the outside.
The "one key prevents another being inserted" may be a deliberate
feature to "replicate" this function.

SteveW

On Tue, 03 Oct 2017 23:28:32 +0100, Birdbrain Macaw (now "James Wilkinson"),
the pathological attention whore of all the uk ngs, blathered again:

SNAFU. Situation normal, all ****ed up.

It's the motto of your sociopathic "life", sociopath.

--
More from ****** Birdbrain Macaw's (now "James Wilkinson" LOL) strange
sociopathic world:
"I pass out at the thought of an injection for any reason. Presumably the
idea of a long sharp foreign object being deliberately inserted into my body
without me attempting to stop it is too much for my brain to handle."
MID:

"James Wilkinson Sword" wrote in message
news
On Tue, 03 Oct 2017 23:50:44 +0100, Steve Walker
wrote:

On 03/10/2017 23:28, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
SNAFU. Situation normal, all ****ed up. Nobody thinks before designing
things.

There may well be a reason - with many traditional locks you can slide a
button on the inside, which prevents a key being used from the outside.
The "one key prevents another being inserted" may be a deliberate
feature to "replicate" this function.

Never seen the point in that.

It stops a pick being used.

I have a traditional Yale type lock and have never used that button. Why
would I wish to prevent someone (probably myself) with a valid key from
unlocking the door?

Because it can be a criminal, stupid.

On Wed, 04 Oct 2017 00:20:28 +0100, Birdbrain Macaw (now "James Wilkinson"),
the pathological attention whore of all the uk ngs, blathered again:

There may well be a reason - with many traditional locks you can slide a
button on the inside, which prevents a key being used from the outside.
The "one key prevents another being inserted" may be a deliberate
feature to "replicate" this function.

Never seen the point in that.

That's because you ARE a congenital idiot! So many people having made a
statement to that effect can't be wrong, Birdbrain.

--
More of Birdbrain Macaw's (now "James Wilkinson" LOL) usual sociopathic
bull****:
"Does your dog leave **** everywhere in your house because it hasn't wiped
it's arse? Do you allow it to urinate on people's walls and hedges like
most dog walkers?"
MID:

On Wednesday, 4 October 2017 00:20:32 UTC+1, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
On Tue, 03 Oct 2017 23:50:44 +0100, Steve Walker wrote:

On 03/10/2017 23:28, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
SNAFU. Situation normal, all ****ed up. Nobody thinks before designing
things.

There may well be a reason - with many traditional locks you can slide a
button on the inside, which prevents a key being used from the outside.
The "one key prevents another being inserted" may be a deliberate
feature to "replicate" this function.

Never seen the point in that. I have a traditional Yale type lock and have never used that button. Why would I wish to prevent someone (probably myself) with a valid key from unlocking the door?

I wouldn;t want someone breaking into my place when I was there what would be the point of them doing that unles sit was the fire brigade or a medical emergancy.
People have used bolts on doors and mortice locks been locked at night for years I thought most people locked themselves in.

"James Wilkinson Sword" wrote in message
news
On Wed, 04 Oct 2017 12:21:28 +0100, whisky-dave
wrote:

On Wednesday, 4 October 2017 00:20:32 UTC+1, James Wilkinson Sword
wrote:
On Tue, 03 Oct 2017 23:50:44 +0100, Steve Walker
wrote:

On 03/10/2017 23:28, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
SNAFU. Situation normal, all ****ed up. Nobody thinks before
designing
things.

There may well be a reason - with many traditional locks you can slide
a
button on the inside, which prevents a key being used from the
outside.
The "one key prevents another being inserted" may be a deliberate
feature to "replicate" this function.

Never seen the point in that. I have a traditional Yale type lock and
have never used that button. Why would I wish to prevent someone
(probably myself) with a valid key from unlocking the door?

I wouldn;t want someone breaking into my place when I was there what
would be the point of them doing that unles sit was the fire brigade or a
medical emergancy.
People have used bolts on doors and mortice locks been locked at night
for years I thought most people locked themselves in.

But if the lock works properly and cannot be picked, why do you need extra
steps to prevent someone with a valid key from unlocking it?

Agreed. If the lock works as designed, there's no point in preventing a key
being used from outside. I suppose if "one key prevents another being
inserted", it also makes it (presumably) much harder for anyone without a
key being able to pick the lock. It is a two-edged sword, though, because
it's also possible for a burglar to break the glass, retrieve the key and
then use it from the outside. In the olden days of doors with a large gap
between the door and the floor, it also allowed someone to joggle the key
out of the lock onto a piece of paper that you put through the gap, and then
you pull the paper back with the key on it. That only works with a) internal
doors that don't have a ledge on the bottom edge that the door butts up
against, and b) if there's enough of a gap, which isn't the case with modern
doors that rub against a carpet and doesn't leave a big enough gap to get
the key through.

The problem comes when it locks someone out who has a key. Several times
I've gone out while my wife has been in the house, and she's put her key in
the inside of the front door after I've locked it from the outside, and I've
been unable to get back in when I return home. That's usually resolved by
knocking and ringing until she unlocks the door, usually with a sheepish "oh
****, I forgot".

On Wednesday, 4 October 2017 13:05:15 UTC+1, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
On Wed, 04 Oct 2017 12:21:28 +0100, whisky-dave wrote:

On Wednesday, 4 October 2017 00:20:32 UTC+1, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
On Tue, 03 Oct 2017 23:50:44 +0100, Steve Walker wrote:

On 03/10/2017 23:28, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
SNAFU. Situation normal, all ****ed up. Nobody thinks before designing
things.

There may well be a reason - with many traditional locks you can slide a
button on the inside, which prevents a key being used from the outside.
The "one key prevents another being inserted" may be a deliberate
feature to "replicate" this function.

Never seen the point in that. I have a traditional Yale type lock and have never used that button. Why would I wish to prevent someone (probably myself) with a valid key from unlocking the door?

I wouldn;t want someone breaking into my place when I was there what would be the point of them doing that unles sit was the fire brigade or a medical emergancy.
People have used bolts on doors and mortice locks been locked at night for years I thought most people locked themselves in.

But if the lock works properly and cannot be picked, why do you need extra steps to prevent someone with a valid key from unlocking it?

What makes you so sure it's a valid key ? whatever that means.
Are skeleton keys valid. ?

On Wednesday, 4 October 2017 15:05:02 UTC+1, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
On Wed, 04 Oct 2017 14:45:08 +0100, whisky-dave wrote:

On Wednesday, 4 October 2017 13:05:15 UTC+1, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
On Wed, 04 Oct 2017 12:21:28 +0100, whisky-dave wrote:

On Wednesday, 4 October 2017 00:20:32 UTC+1, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
On Tue, 03 Oct 2017 23:50:44 +0100, Steve Walker wrote:

On 03/10/2017 23:28, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
SNAFU. Situation normal, all ****ed up. Nobody thinks before designing
things.

There may well be a reason - with many traditional locks you can slide a
button on the inside, which prevents a key being used from the outside.
The "one key prevents another being inserted" may be a deliberate
feature to "replicate" this function.

Never seen the point in that. I have a traditional Yale type lock and have never used that button. Why would I wish to prevent someone (probably myself) with a valid key from unlocking the door?

I wouldn;t want someone breaking into my place when I was there what would be the point of them doing that unles sit was the fire brigade or a medical emergancy.
People have used bolts on doors and mortice locks been locked at night for years I thought most people locked themselves in.

But if the lock works properly and cannot be picked, why do you need extra steps to prevent someone with a valid key from unlocking it?

What makes you so sure it's a valid key ? whatever that means.
Are skeleton keys valid. ?

Which would mean the lock is rubbish. If you're out of your house, how can you lock it from the inside to prevent a key being used?

You can't, but when leaving the house you have to have some way of getting back in, but when already in the house you don't need a way to get in because you're already in.

Leaving your key in the door when you're inside has advanatges too, such as in a fire you don't have to go find your key and neither does anyone else who might happen to be in your house.
There are disadvantages too if someone broke in or could get to yuor key through the letter bix like I did once. (although) that was an advantage in my case.

"whisky-dave" wrote in message
...
On Wednesday, 4 October 2017 15:05:02 UTC+1, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
On Wed, 04 Oct 2017 14:45:08 +0100, whisky-dave
wrote:

On Wednesday, 4 October 2017 13:05:15 UTC+1, James Wilkinson Sword
wrote:
On Wed, 04 Oct 2017 12:21:28 +0100, whisky-dave
wrote:

On Wednesday, 4 October 2017 00:20:32 UTC+1, James Wilkinson Sword
wrote:
On Tue, 03 Oct 2017 23:50:44 +0100, Steve Walker
wrote:

On 03/10/2017 23:28, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
SNAFU. Situation normal, all ****ed up. Nobody thinks before
designing
things.

There may well be a reason - with many traditional locks you can
slide a
button on the inside, which prevents a key being used from the
outside.
The "one key prevents another being inserted" may be a deliberate
feature to "replicate" this function.

Never seen the point in that. I have a traditional Yale type lock
and have never used that button. Why would I wish to prevent
someone (probably myself) with a valid key from unlocking the door?

I wouldn;t want someone breaking into my place when I was there what
would be the point of them doing that unles sit was the fire brigade
or a medical emergancy.
People have used bolts on doors and mortice locks been locked at
night for years I thought most people locked themselves in.

But if the lock works properly and cannot be picked, why do you need
extra steps to prevent someone with a valid key from unlocking it?

What makes you so sure it's a valid key ? whatever that means.
Are skeleton keys valid. ?

Which would mean the lock is rubbish. If you're out of your house, how
can you lock it from the inside to prevent a key being used?

You can't, but when leaving the house you have to have some way of getting
back in, but when already in the house you don't need a way to get in
because you're already in.

Leaving your key in the door when you're inside has advanatges too, such
as in a fire you don't have to go find your key and neither does anyone
else who might happen to be in your house.
There are disadvantages too if someone broke in or could get to yuor key
through the letter bix like I did once. (although) that was an advantage
in my case.

I thought that doors only had one key in general use, with the spare key in
some safe place, in which case the problem doesn't arise. If a couple keep
one key each, then if one leaves the house taking the key with them, the
problem doesn't arise. If one is in the house, the other can ring to be let
in. If one of them does not keep the key in their pocket when they leave the
house, then one of them will not be able to get in - no worse than a single
person forgetting to take the key with them when they leave the house via an
automatically locking door.
--
Dave W

On Wed, 04 Oct 2017 13:05:11 +0100, Birdbrain Macaw (now "James Wilkinson"),
the pathological attention whore of all the uk ngs, blathered again:

FLUSH all the endless useless idiotic DRIVEL unread again

--
More of Birdbrain Macaw's (now "James Wilkinson" LOL) endless sociopathic
bull****:
"We don't have shrinks here because we don't need them, we're not ****ed in
the head like Americans."
MID:

On Wed, 04 Oct 2017 14:19:24 +0100, Birdbrain Macaw (now "James Wilkinson"),
the pathological attention whore of all the uk ngs, blathered again:

FLUSH sociopath's sociopathic sick drivel

--
More Birdbrain Macaw's (now "James Wilkinson" LOL), the village idiot's,
drivel:
"99% of people are thick, ignorant, or just plain stupid."
MID:

On Wed, 04 Oct 2017 15:04:58 +0100, Birdbrain Macaw (now "James Wilkinson"),
the pathological attention whore of all the uk ngs, blathered again:

FLUSH all the ****

--
Birdbrain Macaw's (now "James Wilkinson" LOL) scientific "mind" at work
again:
"Try this - have some sort of inflated thing with no
hole, and lie on the floor with it on your chest. Have a friend drop a
large rock onto it. Now try dropping the same rock directly onto you.
Even without doing it, it's obvious which would hurt more."
MID:

On Wed, 04 Oct 2017 17:16:07 +0100, Birdbrain Macaw (now "James Wilkinson"),
the pathological attention whore of all the uk ngs, blathered again:


You're such a pessimist thinking of fire. Try not setting light to your
house in the first place.

You are such an unbelievable idiot. Try to find a doctor again who can treat
you, Birdbrain!

--
More of Birdbrain Macaw's (now "James Wilkinson" LOL) sociopathic "wisdom":
"Anyone with ginger hair is inferior, they cannot handle the natural
phenomenon called the sun. They deserve to catch fire!"
MID:

On Wed, 04 Oct 2017 17:42:34 +0100, Birdbrain Macaw (now "James Wilkinson"),
the pathological attention whore of all the uk ngs, blathered again:

FLUSH idiot's drivel

--
More details from Birdbrain Macaw's (now "James Wilkinson" LOL) sociopathic
"life":
"When I were a lad, I was a vegetarian and my friend wasn't. But I broke
the necks of the rabbits we caught and he couldn't bring himself to. Yet he
would eat the result and I wouldn't. Very odd."
MID:

On 04/10/2017 14:45, whisky-dave wrote:
On Wednesday, 4 October 2017 13:05:15 UTC+1, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
On Wed, 04 Oct 2017 12:21:28 +0100, whisky-dave wrote:
On Wednesday, 4 October 2017 00:20:32 UTC+1, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
On Tue, 03 Oct 2017 23:50:44 +0100, Steve Walker wrote:
On 03/10/2017 23:28, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:

SNAFU. Situation normal, all ****ed up. Nobody thinks before designing
things.

There may well be a reason - with many traditional locks you can slide a
button on the inside, which prevents a key being used from the outside.
The "one key prevents another being inserted" may be a deliberate
feature to "replicate" this function.

Never seen the point in that. I have a traditional Yale type lock and have never used that button. Why would I wish to prevent someone (probably myself) with a valid key from unlocking the door?

I wouldn;t want someone breaking into my place when I was there what would be the point of them doing that unles sit was the fire brigade or a medical emergancy.
People have used bolts on doors and mortice locks been locked at night for years I thought most people locked themselves in.

But if the lock works properly and cannot be picked, why do you need extra steps to prevent someone with a valid key from unlocking it?

What makes you so sure it's a valid key ? whatever that means.
Are skeleton keys valid. ?

Skeleton keys only work with simple, warded locks, only used on sheds
these days.

--
Max Demian

"whisky-dave" wrote in message
...
On Wednesday, 4 October 2017 00:20:32 UTC+1, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
On Tue, 03 Oct 2017 23:50:44 +0100, Steve Walker
wrote:

On 03/10/2017 23:28, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
SNAFU. Situation normal, all ****ed up. Nobody thinks before
designing
things.

There may well be a reason - with many traditional locks you can slide
a
button on the inside, which prevents a key being used from the outside.
The "one key prevents another being inserted" may be a deliberate
feature to "replicate" this function.

Never seen the point in that. I have a traditional Yale type lock and
have never used that button. Why would I wish to prevent someone
(probably myself) with a valid key from unlocking the door?

I wouldn;t want someone breaking into my place when
I was there what would be the point of them doing that
unles sit was the fire brigade or a medical emergancy.

And those wouldnt be picking the lock anyway, they
would break a window because that is a lot quicker.

People have used bolts on doors and mortice locks been locked
at night for years I thought most people locked themselves in.

But its more convenient to have some easy way of stopping
the lock being picked by just putting the key in the other side.

Main downside with that approach tho is if the crim breaks in,
it makes it a lot easier for them to get out again quickly if say
you start belting the **** out of them with a baseball bat etc.

"James Wilkinson Sword" wrote in message
news
On Wed, 04 Oct 2017 12:21:28 +0100, whisky-dave
wrote:

On Wednesday, 4 October 2017 00:20:32 UTC+1, James Wilkinson Sword
wrote:
On Tue, 03 Oct 2017 23:50:44 +0100, Steve Walker
wrote:

On 03/10/2017 23:28, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
SNAFU. Situation normal, all ****ed up. Nobody thinks before
designing
things.

There may well be a reason - with many traditional locks you can slide
a
button on the inside, which prevents a key being used from the
outside.
The "one key prevents another being inserted" may be a deliberate
feature to "replicate" this function.

Never seen the point in that. I have a traditional Yale type lock and
have never used that button. Why would I wish to prevent someone
(probably myself) with a valid key from unlocking the door?

I wouldn;t want someone breaking into my place when I was there what
would be the point of them doing that unles sit was the fire brigade or a
medical emergancy.
People have used bolts on doors and mortice locks been locked at night
for years I thought most people locked themselves in.

But if the lock works properly and cannot be picked,

Any affordable lock can be.

why do you need extra steps to prevent someone with a valid key from
unlocking it?

Because you know that no one with a valid key
will need to when everyone is already inside.

And its better to have a key inside that will unlock
it from inside in case there is a fire and you need
to be able to get out quickly instead of having
to find the damned key so you can get out.

"NY" wrote in message
o.uk...
"James Wilkinson Sword" wrote in message
news
On Wed, 04 Oct 2017 12:21:28 +0100, whisky-dave
wrote:

On Wednesday, 4 October 2017 00:20:32 UTC+1, James Wilkinson Sword
wrote:
On Tue, 03 Oct 2017 23:50:44 +0100, Steve Walker
wrote:

On 03/10/2017 23:28, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
SNAFU. Situation normal, all ****ed up. Nobody thinks before
designing
things.

There may well be a reason - with many traditional locks you can
slide a
button on the inside, which prevents a key being used from the
outside.
The "one key prevents another being inserted" may be a deliberate
feature to "replicate" this function.

Never seen the point in that. I have a traditional Yale type lock and
have never used that button. Why would I wish to prevent someone
(probably myself) with a valid key from unlocking the door?

I wouldn;t want someone breaking into my place when I was there what
would be the point of them doing that unles sit was the fire brigade or
a medical emergancy.
People have used bolts on doors and mortice locks been locked at night
for years I thought most people locked themselves in.

But if the lock works properly and cannot be picked, why do you need
extra steps to prevent someone with a valid key from unlocking it?

Agreed. If the lock works as designed, there's no point in preventing a
key being used from outside.

Corse there is if you know no one with a key will want
to use it from outside, because they are all inside.

And you have the key in the lock on the inside so that
if the place does catch fire, you can be sure that you can
get out of that door as quickly as possible if necessary.

I suppose if "one key prevents another being inserted", it also makes it
(presumably) much harder for anyone without a key being able to pick the
lock.

That's less clear. Presumably the picker can just use
something to push the key that's been put in the lock
from the inside, right out of the lock onto the floor
and they are then free to pick the lock in the usual way.

It is a two-edged sword, though, because it's also possible for a burglar
to break the glass, retrieve the key and then use it from the outside.

That only true of doors that stupidly have
glass panels in them or next to them.

In the olden days of doors with a large gap between the door and the
floor, it also allowed someone to joggle the key out of the lock onto a
piece of paper that you put through the gap, and then you pull the paper
back with the key on it. That only works with a) internal doors that don't
have a ledge on the bottom edge that the door butts up against, and b) if
there's enough of a gap, which isn't the case with modern doors that rub
against a carpet and doesn't leave a big enough gap to get the key
through.

And its all academic with decent modern
electronic locks which don't need a key at all.

The problem comes when it locks someone out who has a key. Several times
I've gone out while my wife has been in the house, and she's put her key
in the inside of the front door after I've locked it from the outside, and
I've been unable to get back in when I return home.

That's to give the milkman time to put his pants back
on and get out the back door while she's letting you in.

That's usually resolved by knocking and ringing until she unlocks the
door,

And has let the milkman or Adam escape.

usually with a sheepish "oh ****, I forgot".

And you were silly enough to believe her {-(

On Wed, 04 Oct 2017 19:38:44 +0100, Birdbrain Macaw (now "James Wilkinson"),
the pathological attention whore of all the uk ngs, blathered again:


Skeleton keys only work with simple, warded locks, only used on sheds
these days.

I often see sheds with a padlock attached with pozidrive screws and think WTF?

You think, idiot? REALLY? LOL

--
More of Birdbrain Macaw's (now "James Wilkinson" LOL) usual sociopathic
bull****:
"Does your dog leave **** everywhere in your house because it hasn't wiped
it's arse? Do you allow it to urinate on people's walls and hedges like
most dog walkers?"
MID:

"James Wilkinson Sword" wrote in message
news
On Wed, 04 Oct 2017 16:42:34 +0100, whisky-dave
wrote:

On Wednesday, 4 October 2017 15:05:02 UTC+1, James Wilkinson Sword
wrote:
On Wed, 04 Oct 2017 14:45:08 +0100, whisky-dave
wrote:

On Wednesday, 4 October 2017 13:05:15 UTC+1, James Wilkinson Sword
wrote:
On Wed, 04 Oct 2017 12:21:28 +0100, whisky-dave
wrote:

On Wednesday, 4 October 2017 00:20:32 UTC+1, James Wilkinson Sword
wrote:
On Tue, 03 Oct 2017 23:50:44 +0100, Steve Walker
wrote:

On 03/10/2017 23:28, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
SNAFU. Situation normal, all ****ed up. Nobody thinks before
designing
things.

There may well be a reason - with many traditional locks you can
slide a
button on the inside, which prevents a key being used from the
outside.
The "one key prevents another being inserted" may be a
deliberate
feature to "replicate" this function.

Never seen the point in that. I have a traditional Yale type lock
and have never used that button. Why would I wish to prevent
someone (probably myself) with a valid key from unlocking the
door?

I wouldn;t want someone breaking into my place when I was there
what would be the point of them doing that unles sit was the fire
brigade or a medical emergancy.
People have used bolts on doors and mortice locks been locked at
night for years I thought most people locked themselves in.

But if the lock works properly and cannot be picked, why do you need
extra steps to prevent someone with a valid key from unlocking it?

What makes you so sure it's a valid key ? whatever that means.
Are skeleton keys valid. ?

Which would mean the lock is rubbish. If you're out of your house, how
can you lock it from the inside to prevent a key being used?

You can't, but when leaving the house you have to have some way of
getting back in, but when already in the house you don't need a way to
get in because you're already in.

Leaving your key in the door when you're inside has advanatges too, such
as in a fire you don't have to go find your key and neither does anyone
else who might happen to be in your house.
There are disadvantages too if someone broke in or could get to yuor key
through the letter bix like I did once. (although) that was an advantage
in my case.

You're such a pessimist thinking of fire. Try not setting light to your
house in the first place.

Its not necessarily that easy, as Grenfell proves.

"Dave W" wrote in message
news

"whisky-dave" wrote in message
...
On Wednesday, 4 October 2017 15:05:02 UTC+1, James Wilkinson Sword
wrote:
On Wed, 04 Oct 2017 14:45:08 +0100, whisky-dave
wrote:

On Wednesday, 4 October 2017 13:05:15 UTC+1, James Wilkinson Sword
wrote:
On Wed, 04 Oct 2017 12:21:28 +0100, whisky-dave
wrote:

On Wednesday, 4 October 2017 00:20:32 UTC+1, James Wilkinson Sword
wrote:
On Tue, 03 Oct 2017 23:50:44 +0100, Steve Walker
wrote:

On 03/10/2017 23:28, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
SNAFU. Situation normal, all ****ed up. Nobody thinks before
designing
things.

There may well be a reason - with many traditional locks you can
slide a
button on the inside, which prevents a key being used from the
outside.
The "one key prevents another being inserted" may be a
deliberate
feature to "replicate" this function.

Never seen the point in that. I have a traditional Yale type lock
and have never used that button. Why would I wish to prevent
someone (probably myself) with a valid key from unlocking the
door?

I wouldn;t want someone breaking into my place when I was there
what would be the point of them doing that unles sit was the fire
brigade or a medical emergancy.
People have used bolts on doors and mortice locks been locked at
night for years I thought most people locked themselves in.

But if the lock works properly and cannot be picked, why do you need
extra steps to prevent someone with a valid key from unlocking it?

What makes you so sure it's a valid key ? whatever that means.
Are skeleton keys valid. ?

Which would mean the lock is rubbish. If you're out of your house, how
can you lock it from the inside to prevent a key being used?

You can't, but when leaving the house you have to have some way of
getting back in, but when already in the house you don't need a way to
get in because you're already in.

Leaving your key in the door when you're inside has advanatges too, such
as in a fire you don't have to go find your key and neither does anyone
else who might happen to be in your house.
There are disadvantages too if someone broke in or could get to yuor key
through the letter bix like I did once. (although) that was an advantage
in my case.

I thought that doors only had one key in general use, with the spare key
in some safe place,

Most with even half a clue have everyone in the house with a key
to the door except little kids who don’t even go to school etc.

That way they can let themselves in regardless of who is there already.

in which case the problem doesn't arise.

Bet that’s a rare situation now with so few women
not working and always being home during the day.

Even then, it makes no sense to have to have someone who lives
there let someone who has been out, back into the house again.

If a couple keep one key each, then if one leaves the house taking the key
with them, the problem doesn't arise.

Except that some can forget to take the key with them
when they leave and there can then be a problem
if there is no one in the house when they return.

If one is in the house, the other can ring to be let in. If one of them
does not keep the key in their pocket when they leave the house, then one
of them will not be able to get in

And that is obviously an undesirable situation.

- no worse than a single person forgetting to take the key with them when
they leave the house via an automatically locking door.

Also a situation best avoided.

On Wednesday, 4 October 2017 17:25:28 UTC+1, Dave W wrote:
"whisky-dave" wrote in message
...
On Wednesday, 4 October 2017 15:05:02 UTC+1, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
On Wed, 04 Oct 2017 14:45:08 +0100, whisky-dave
wrote:

On Wednesday, 4 October 2017 13:05:15 UTC+1, James Wilkinson Sword
wrote:
On Wed, 04 Oct 2017 12:21:28 +0100, whisky-dave
wrote:

On Wednesday, 4 October 2017 00:20:32 UTC+1, James Wilkinson Sword
wrote:
On Tue, 03 Oct 2017 23:50:44 +0100, Steve Walker
wrote:

On 03/10/2017 23:28, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
SNAFU. Situation normal, all ****ed up. Nobody thinks before
designing
things.

There may well be a reason - with many traditional locks you can
slide a
button on the inside, which prevents a key being used from the
outside.
The "one key prevents another being inserted" may be a deliberate
feature to "replicate" this function.

Never seen the point in that. I have a traditional Yale type lock
and have never used that button. Why would I wish to prevent
someone (probably myself) with a valid key from unlocking the door?

I wouldn;t want someone breaking into my place when I was there what
would be the point of them doing that unles sit was the fire brigade
or a medical emergancy.
People have used bolts on doors and mortice locks been locked at
night for years I thought most people locked themselves in.

But if the lock works properly and cannot be picked, why do you need
extra steps to prevent someone with a valid key from unlocking it?

What makes you so sure it's a valid key ? whatever that means.
Are skeleton keys valid. ?

Which would mean the lock is rubbish. If you're out of your house, how
can you lock it from the inside to prevent a key being used?

You can't, but when leaving the house you have to have some way of getting
back in, but when already in the house you don't need a way to get in
because you're already in.

Leaving your key in the door when you're inside has advanatges too, such
as in a fire you don't have to go find your key and neither does anyone
else who might happen to be in your house.
There are disadvantages too if someone broke in or could get to yuor key
through the letter bix like I did once. (although) that was an advantage
in my case.

I thought that doors only had one key in general use,

What makes you think that ? I knopw couples that have a key each some even give a key to thier kids when they are old enough.


with the spare key in
some safe place, in which case the problem doesn't arise.

What do you mean in a safe place ?


If a couple keep
one key each, then if one leaves the house taking the key with them, the
problem doesn't arise.

Which problem is that ?

If one is in the house,

IF.

the other can ring to be let
in.

What happens IF that person dies or is taken seriously ill.

If one of them does not keep the key in their pocket when they leave the
house,

Why wouldn;t they what do you expect tghem to do with it ?


then one of them will not be able to get in - no worse than a single
person forgetting to take the key with them when they leave the house via an
automatically locking door.

So not much use then is it.

--
Dave W

On Wednesday, 4 October 2017 19:34:20 UTC+1, Max Demian wrote:
On 04/10/2017 14:45, whisky-dave wrote:
On Wednesday, 4 October 2017 13:05:15 UTC+1, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
On Wed, 04 Oct 2017 12:21:28 +0100, whisky-dave wrote:
On Wednesday, 4 October 2017 00:20:32 UTC+1, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
On Tue, 03 Oct 2017 23:50:44 +0100, Steve Walker wrote:
On 03/10/2017 23:28, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:

SNAFU. Situation normal, all ****ed up. Nobody thinks before designing
things.

There may well be a reason - with many traditional locks you can slide a
button on the inside, which prevents a key being used from the outside.
The "one key prevents another being inserted" may be a deliberate
feature to "replicate" this function.

Never seen the point in that. I have a traditional Yale type lock and have never used that button. Why would I wish to prevent someone (probably myself) with a valid key from unlocking the door?

I wouldn;t want someone breaking into my place when I was there what would be the point of them doing that unles sit was the fire brigade or a medical emergancy.
People have used bolts on doors and mortice locks been locked at night for years I thought most people locked themselves in.

But if the lock works properly and cannot be picked, why do you need extra steps to prevent someone with a valid key from unlocking it?

What makes you so sure it's a valid key ? whatever that means.
Are skeleton keys valid. ?

Skeleton keys only work with simple, warded locks, only used on sheds
these days.

Not true as a friend of mine was a locksmith and he can get through certain doors without needing to drill out the locks.

"whisky-dave" wrote in message
...
On Wednesday, 4 October 2017 17:25:28 UTC+1, Dave W wrote:
"whisky-dave" wrote in message
...

JWS rubbish snipped

You can't, but when leaving the house you have to have some way of
getting
back in, but when already in the house you don't need a way to get in
because you're already in.

Leaving your key in the door when you're inside has advanatges too,
such
as in a fire you don't have to go find your key and neither does anyone
else who might happen to be in your house.
There are disadvantages too if someone broke in or could get to yuor
key
through the letter bix like I did once. (although) that was an
advantage
in my case.

I thought that doors only had one key in general use,

What makes you think that ? I knopw couples that have a key each some
even give a key to thier kids when they are old enough.


with the spare key in
some safe place, in which case the problem doesn't arise.

What do you mean in a safe place ?

Anywhere except in the lock.


If a couple keep
one key each, then if one leaves the house taking the key with them, the
problem doesn't arise.

Which problem is that ?

The problem stated by the OP at the beginning of the thread.


If one is in the house,

IF.

the other can ring to be let
in.

What happens IF that person dies or is taken seriously ill.

You can't get in, either because you left the house by slamming the Yale
lock without having its key, or you left the house via the key lock we're
talking about, and the person put their own key in the lock after you'd
gone.

If one of them does not keep the key in their pocket when they leave the
house,

Why wouldn;t they what do you expect tghem to do with it ?

I would expect them to keep the key in their pocket to get back in again.

then one of them will not be able to get in - no worse than a single
person forgetting to take the key with them when they leave the house via
an
automatically locking door.

So not much use then is it.

It would be OK if the users acted sensibly.
--
Dave W

"whisky-dave" wrote in message
...
On Wednesday, 4 October 2017 17:25:28 UTC+1, Dave W wrote:
"whisky-dave" wrote in message
...
On Wednesday, 4 October 2017 15:05:02 UTC+1, James Wilkinson Sword
wrote:
On Wed, 04 Oct 2017 14:45:08 +0100, whisky-dave

wrote:

On Wednesday, 4 October 2017 13:05:15 UTC+1, James Wilkinson Sword
wrote:
On Wed, 04 Oct 2017 12:21:28 +0100, whisky-dave
wrote:

On Wednesday, 4 October 2017 00:20:32 UTC+1, James Wilkinson
Sword
wrote:
On Tue, 03 Oct 2017 23:50:44 +0100, Steve Walker
wrote:

On 03/10/2017 23:28, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
SNAFU. Situation normal, all ****ed up. Nobody thinks
before
designing
things.

There may well be a reason - with many traditional locks you
can
slide a
button on the inside, which prevents a key being used from the
outside.
The "one key prevents another being inserted" may be a
deliberate
feature to "replicate" this function.

Never seen the point in that. I have a traditional Yale type
lock
and have never used that button. Why would I wish to prevent
someone (probably myself) with a valid key from unlocking the
door?

I wouldn;t want someone breaking into my place when I was there
what
would be the point of them doing that unles sit was the fire
brigade
or a medical emergancy.
People have used bolts on doors and mortice locks been locked at
night for years I thought most people locked themselves in.

But if the lock works properly and cannot be picked, why do you
need
extra steps to prevent someone with a valid key from unlocking it?

What makes you so sure it's a valid key ? whatever that means.
Are skeleton keys valid. ?

Which would mean the lock is rubbish. If you're out of your house,
how
can you lock it from the inside to prevent a key being used?

You can't, but when leaving the house you have to have some way of
getting
back in, but when already in the house you don't need a way to get in
because you're already in.

Leaving your key in the door when you're inside has advanatges too,
such
as in a fire you don't have to go find your key and neither does anyone
else who might happen to be in your house.
There are disadvantages too if someone broke in or could get to yuor
key
through the letter bix like I did once. (although) that was an
advantage
in my case.

I thought that doors only had one key in general use,

What makes you think that ? I knopw couples that have a key
each some even give a key to thier kids when they are old enough.

Yeah, IMO its stupid not to do it that way for all but the youngest kids.

with the spare key in
some safe place, in which case the problem doesn't arise.

What do you mean in a safe place ?

Where the house occupants can get at it
easily, but a burglar is unlikely to find it.

When we were kids we used to do that with the car
key, the spare was kept inside the hinged door that
covered the petrol tank filler on the Zephyr estate.

Great when out shopping with the car in the big
carparks so the kids could go off by themselves
and be able to get in the car when they arrived
back at the car before the driver did.

If a couple keep one key each, then if one leaves the house
taking the key with them, the problem doesn't arise.

Which problem is that ?

A key left in the lock on the inside and someone showing
up outside and not being able to get in so that someone
inside the house has to let them in. Stupid waste of time
for those inside the house.

If one is in the house, the other can ring to be let in.

What happens IF that person dies or is taken seriously ill.

Doesnt happen often enough to matter and
the hidden key fixes that problem anyway.

If one of them does not keep the key in their pocket
when they leave the house, then one of them will
not be able to get in - no worse than a single person
forgetting to take the key with them when they
leave the house via an automatically locking door.

So not much use then is it.

The hidden key obviously is.

"whisky-dave" wrote in message
...
On Wednesday, 4 October 2017 19:34:20 UTC+1, Max Demian wrote:
On 04/10/2017 14:45, whisky-dave wrote:
On Wednesday, 4 October 2017 13:05:15 UTC+1, James Wilkinson Sword
wrote:
On Wed, 04 Oct 2017 12:21:28 +0100, whisky-dave
wrote:
On Wednesday, 4 October 2017 00:20:32 UTC+1, James Wilkinson Sword
wrote:
On Tue, 03 Oct 2017 23:50:44 +0100, Steve Walker
wrote:
On 03/10/2017 23:28, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:

SNAFU. Situation normal, all ****ed up. Nobody thinks before
designing
things.

There may well be a reason - with many traditional locks you can
slide a
button on the inside, which prevents a key being used from the
outside.
The "one key prevents another being inserted" may be a deliberate
feature to "replicate" this function.

Never seen the point in that. I have a traditional Yale type lock
and have never used that button. Why would I wish to prevent
someone (probably myself) with a valid key from unlocking the door?

I wouldn;t want someone breaking into my place when I was there what
would be the point of them doing that unles sit was the fire brigade
or a medical emergancy.
People have used bolts on doors and mortice locks been locked at
night for years I thought most people locked themselves in.

But if the lock works properly and cannot be picked, why do you need
extra steps to prevent someone with a valid key from unlocking it?

What makes you so sure it's a valid key ? whatever that means.
Are skeleton keys valid. ?

Skeleton keys only work with simple, warded locks, only used on sheds
these days.

Not true as a friend of mine was a locksmith and he can get through
certain doors without needing to drill out the locks.

Yeah, one of our reality TV shows had the goons who hunt down
illegal immigrants show up at a place they knew had something
like 8 illegals staying there as a result of a tipoff. The illegals just
refused to open the door when the goons keep banging on the
door at 4am with the illegals inside. The goons got a locksmith
to open the door from the outside, very quick and easy and no
damage to the lock at all.

On Wednesday, 11 October 2017 12:21:48 UTC+1, Dave W wrote:
"whisky-dave" wrote in message
...
On Wednesday, 4 October 2017 17:25:28 UTC+1, Dave W wrote:
"whisky-dave" wrote in message
...

JWS rubbish snipped

You can't, but when leaving the house you have to have some way of
getting
back in, but when already in the house you don't need a way to get in
because you're already in.

Leaving your key in the door when you're inside has advanatges too,
such
as in a fire you don't have to go find your key and neither does anyone
else who might happen to be in your house.
There are disadvantages too if someone broke in or could get to yuor
key
through the letter bix like I did once. (although) that was an
advantage
in my case.

I thought that doors only had one key in general use,

What makes you think that ? I knopw couples that have a key each some
even give a key to thier kids when they are old enough.


with the spare key in
some safe place, in which case the problem doesn't arise.

What do you mean in a safe place ?

Anywhere except in the lock.

So yuo havenlt got a clue then have you.

Are you saying keeping a key under the flower pot in the front garden is a safe place ?



If a couple keep
one key each, then if one leaves the house taking the key with them, the
problem doesn't arise.

Which problem is that ?

The problem stated by the OP at the beginning of the thread.

So you forgot they want to keep a key in the door on the inside.


If one is in the house,

IF.

the other can ring to be let
in.

What happens IF that person dies or is taken seriously ill.

You can't get in, either because you left the house by slamming the Yale
lock without having its key,

where did you get that info from ?
because slamming a door hard doesn't change the way it locks.


or you left the house via the key lock we're
talking about, and the person put their own key in the lock after you'd
gone.

Yep and that's part of the problem isnlt it, decide which is the more to happen.



then one of them will not be able to get in - no worse than a single
person forgetting to take the key with them when they leave the house via
an
automatically locking door.

So not much use then is it.

It would be OK if the users acted sensibly.

Which isn't the question.

On Wednesday, 11 October 2017 14:44:08 UTC+1, Rod Speed wrote:
"whisky-dave" wrote in message
...
On Wednesday, 4 October 2017 17:25:28 UTC+1, Dave W wrote:
"whisky-dave" wrote in message
...
On Wednesday, 4 October 2017 15:05:02 UTC+1, James Wilkinson Sword
wrote:
On Wed, 04 Oct 2017 14:45:08 +0100, whisky-dave

wrote:

On Wednesday, 4 October 2017 13:05:15 UTC+1, James Wilkinson Sword
wrote:
On Wed, 04 Oct 2017 12:21:28 +0100, whisky-dave
wrote:

On Wednesday, 4 October 2017 00:20:32 UTC+1, James Wilkinson
Sword
wrote:
On Tue, 03 Oct 2017 23:50:44 +0100, Steve Walker
wrote:

On 03/10/2017 23:28, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
SNAFU. Situation normal, all ****ed up. Nobody thinks
before
designing
things.

There may well be a reason - with many traditional locks you
can
slide a
button on the inside, which prevents a key being used from the
outside.
The "one key prevents another being inserted" may be a
deliberate
feature to "replicate" this function.

Never seen the point in that. I have a traditional Yale type
lock
and have never used that button. Why would I wish to prevent
someone (probably myself) with a valid key from unlocking the
door?

I wouldn;t want someone breaking into my place when I was there
what
would be the point of them doing that unles sit was the fire
brigade
or a medical emergancy.
People have used bolts on doors and mortice locks been locked at
night for years I thought most people locked themselves in.

But if the lock works properly and cannot be picked, why do you
need
extra steps to prevent someone with a valid key from unlocking it?

What makes you so sure it's a valid key ? whatever that means.
Are skeleton keys valid. ?

Which would mean the lock is rubbish. If you're out of your house,
how
can you lock it from the inside to prevent a key being used?

You can't, but when leaving the house you have to have some way of
getting
back in, but when already in the house you don't need a way to get in
because you're already in.

Leaving your key in the door when you're inside has advanatges too,
such
as in a fire you don't have to go find your key and neither does anyone
else who might happen to be in your house.
There are disadvantages too if someone broke in or could get to yuor
key
through the letter bix like I did once. (although) that was an
advantage
in my case.

I thought that doors only had one key in general use,

What makes you think that ? I knopw couples that have a key
each some even give a key to thier kids when they are old enough.

Yeah, IMO its stupid not to do it that way for all but the youngest kids.

Unless you can't trust the kid for some reason or other same with 'adults' too.


with the spare key in
some safe place, in which case the problem doesn't arise.

What do you mean in a safe place ?

Where the house occupants can get at it
easily, but a burglar is unlikely to find it.

Yes that's the idea.


When we were kids we used to do that with the car
key, the spare was kept inside the hinged door that
covered the petrol tank filler on the Zephyr estate.

I guess that's OK unless someone is watching.


Great when out shopping with the car in the big
carparks so the kids could go off by themselves
and be able to get in the car when they arrived
back at the car before the driver did.

I guess so but I can't work out the advantage in that.
Why can't the kids learn to wait for the adults to get back to the car.




If a couple keep one key each, then if one leaves the house
taking the key with them, the problem doesn't arise.

Which problem is that ?

A key left in the lock on the inside and someone showing
up outside and not being able to get in so that someone
inside the house has to let them in. Stupid waste of time
for those inside the house.

If the key is left in the lock inside then you won't be able to lock the door from the outside, in fact the key won't go in the lock.


If one is in the house, the other can ring to be let in.

What happens IF that person dies or is taken seriously ill.

Doesnt happen often enough to matter and
the hidden key fixes that problem anyway.

It does happens, and hidden keys are OK if you know where they are and can get to them. Last year a care for downstairs couldn't get in to help the old lady downstairs because she was bedridden so couldn't answer the door.
The key was in a box that had a combination lock and the carer was covering for someone that was off work due to ill health, her phone had just died (power wise) so she could know the care compnay to get the combination, lucmkily I was in and luckily she had an old iphone with 30 pin connector so charged her phone enough to make the call to get the combination to the key.


If one of them does not keep the key in their pocket
when they leave the house, then one of them will
not be able to get in - no worse than a single person
forgetting to take the key with them when they
leave the house via an automatically locking door.

So not much use then is it.

The hidden key obviously is.

Only if you know where it is and then if anyone else knows or guesses what they.
Do you keep a hidden key under the flower pot or front mat, do you keep yuor spare set of cars keys in the glowe compartment or stuck behind the rear mirror ?

On Wed, 11 Oct 2017 12:21:51 +0100, Dave W wrote:

the other can ring to be let in.

What happens IF that person dies or is taken seriously ill.

You can't get in, either because you left the house by slamming the Yale
lock without having its key, or you left the house via the key lock
we're talking about, and the person put their own key in the lock after
you'd gone.

Which is why I can unlock our front door from my mobile.

--
My posts are my copyright and if @diy_forums or Home Owners' Hub
wish to copy them they can pay me £1 a message.
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK: http://www.mirrorservice.org
*lightning surge protection* - a w_tom conductor

"whisky-dave" wrote in message
...
On Wednesday, 11 October 2017 14:44:08 UTC+1, Rod Speed wrote:
"whisky-dave" wrote in message
...
On Wednesday, 4 October 2017 17:25:28 UTC+1, Dave W wrote:
"whisky-dave" wrote in message
...
On Wednesday, 4 October 2017 15:05:02 UTC+1, James Wilkinson Sword
wrote:
On Wed, 04 Oct 2017 14:45:08 +0100, whisky-dave

wrote:

On Wednesday, 4 October 2017 13:05:15 UTC+1, James Wilkinson
Sword
wrote:
On Wed, 04 Oct 2017 12:21:28 +0100, whisky-dave
wrote:

On Wednesday, 4 October 2017 00:20:32 UTC+1, James Wilkinson
Sword
wrote:
On Tue, 03 Oct 2017 23:50:44 +0100, Steve Walker
wrote:

On 03/10/2017 23:28, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
SNAFU. Situation normal, all ****ed up. Nobody thinks
before
designing
things.

There may well be a reason - with many traditional locks
you
can
slide a
button on the inside, which prevents a key being used from
the
outside.
The "one key prevents another being inserted" may be a
deliberate
feature to "replicate" this function.

Never seen the point in that. I have a traditional Yale type
lock
and have never used that button. Why would I wish to prevent
someone (probably myself) with a valid key from unlocking the
door?

I wouldn;t want someone breaking into my place when I was
there
what
would be the point of them doing that unles sit was the fire
brigade
or a medical emergancy.
People have used bolts on doors and mortice locks been locked
at
night for years I thought most people locked themselves in.

But if the lock works properly and cannot be picked, why do you
need
extra steps to prevent someone with a valid key from unlocking
it?

What makes you so sure it's a valid key ? whatever that means.
Are skeleton keys valid. ?

Which would mean the lock is rubbish. If you're out of your house,
how
can you lock it from the inside to prevent a key being used?

You can't, but when leaving the house you have to have some way of
getting
back in, but when already in the house you don't need a way to get
in
because you're already in.

Leaving your key in the door when you're inside has advanatges too,
such
as in a fire you don't have to go find your key and neither does
anyone
else who might happen to be in your house.
There are disadvantages too if someone broke in or could get to yuor
key
through the letter bix like I did once. (although) that was an
advantage
in my case.

I thought that doors only had one key in general use,

What makes you think that ? I knopw couples that have a key
each some even give a key to thier kids when they are old enough.

Yeah, IMO its stupid not to do it that way for all but the youngest kids.

Unless you can't trust the kid for some reason

The only real consideration there is that some lose things a lot
and some are mindlessly paranoid about what someone else
might do with a lost key. Unlikely to be much of a problem
with most given that hardly anyone is likely to know what
the key fits, tho I spose you could argue that if the loser is
a teenager, they might have arsehole druggy mates who do.

Mad to never give a kid like that a key so that someone
else has to always be home to let them into the house
now that so many have both or the only parent working.

or other same with 'adults' too.

with the spare key in
some safe place, in which case the problem doesn't arise.

What do you mean in a safe place ?

Where the house occupants can get at it
easily, but a burglar is unlikely to find it.

Yes that's the idea.

Easy to do if the hidden key is only ever used very
occasionally when someone forgets to take the key
with them and is in the habit of just shutting the
door behind them as they leave. Trivially fixed by
changing the lock so it has to be locked with a key.

When we were kids we used to do that with the car
key, the spare was kept inside the hinged door that
covered the petrol tank filler on the Zephyr estate.

I guess that's OK unless someone is watching.

Unlikely that they would find the car again some time
later, remember what they saw and use the key to steal it.

Never happened with us.

Great when out shopping with the car in the big
carparks so the kids could go off by themselves
and be able to get in the car when they arrived
back at the car before the driver did.

I guess so but I can't work out the advantage in that.

Yes, you actually are that stupid.

Why can't the kids learn to wait for the adults to get back to the car.

Corse they can, but its more convenient to be able to
wait in the car, particularly in winter with outside carparks.

If a couple keep one key each, then if one leaves the house
taking the key with them, the problem doesn't arise.

Which problem is that ?

A key left in the lock on the inside and someone showing
up outside and not being able to get in so that someone
inside the house has to let them in. Stupid waste of time
for those inside the house.

If the key is left in the lock inside then you won't be able to lock
the door from the outside, in fact the key won't go in the lock.

But the key can be inserted on the inside well after its been
locked from the outside when someone leaves the house earlier.

If one is in the house, the other can ring to be let in.

What happens IF that person dies or is taken seriously ill.

Doesnt happen often enough to matter and
the hidden key fixes that problem anyway.

It does happens,

Not often enough to matter. And you can always break
in in the very unlikely event that that does happen.

and hidden keys are OK if you know where they are and can get to them.

Duh.

Last year a care for downstairs couldn't get in to help the old lady
downstairs because she was bedridden so couldn't answer the door.

So that person should have their own key. Hardly rocket science.

The key was in a box that had a combination lock and the carer was
? covering for someone that was off work due to ill health, her phone
had just died (power wise) so she could know the care compnay to
get the combination, lucmkily I was in and luckily she had an old
iphone with 30 pin connector so charged her phone enough to
make the call to get the combination to the key.

And she would have been able to find someone with their
own phone and call using that to get the combination.

And those key boxes are trivially easy for a real crim to break into.

If one of them does not keep the key in their pocket
when they leave the house, then one of them will
not be able to get in - no worse than a single person
forgetting to take the key with them when they
leave the house via an automatically locking door.

So not much use then is it.

The hidden key obviously is.

reams of your even sillier **** flushed where it belongs

On Wednesday, 11 October 2017 17:25:28 UTC+1, Bob Eager wrote:
On Wed, 11 Oct 2017 12:21:51 +0100, Dave W wrote:

the other can ring to be let in.

What happens IF that person dies or is taken seriously ill.

You can't get in, either because you left the house by slamming the Yale
lock without having its key, or you left the house via the key lock
we're talking about, and the person put their own key in the lock after
you'd gone.

Which is why I can unlock our front door from my mobile.

Can others .

On Wednesday, 11 October 2017 17:27:33 UTC+1, Rod Speed wrote:
"whisky-dave" wrote in message
...
On Wednesday, 11 October 2017 14:44:08 UTC+1, Rod Speed wrote:
"whisky-dave" wrote in message
...
On Wednesday, 4 October 2017 17:25:28 UTC+1, Dave W wrote:
"whisky-dave" wrote in message
...
On Wednesday, 4 October 2017 15:05:02 UTC+1, James Wilkinson Sword
wrote:
On Wed, 04 Oct 2017 14:45:08 +0100, whisky-dave

wrote:

On Wednesday, 4 October 2017 13:05:15 UTC+1, James Wilkinson
Sword
wrote:
On Wed, 04 Oct 2017 12:21:28 +0100, whisky-dave
wrote:

On Wednesday, 4 October 2017 00:20:32 UTC+1, James Wilkinson
Sword
wrote:
On Tue, 03 Oct 2017 23:50:44 +0100, Steve Walker
wrote:

On 03/10/2017 23:28, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
SNAFU. Situation normal, all ****ed up. Nobody thinks
before
designing
things.

There may well be a reason - with many traditional locks
you
can
slide a
button on the inside, which prevents a key being used from
the
outside.
The "one key prevents another being inserted" may be a
deliberate
feature to "replicate" this function.

Never seen the point in that. I have a traditional Yale type
lock
and have never used that button. Why would I wish to prevent
someone (probably myself) with a valid key from unlocking the
door?

I wouldn;t want someone breaking into my place when I was
there
what
would be the point of them doing that unles sit was the fire
brigade
or a medical emergancy.
People have used bolts on doors and mortice locks been locked
at
night for years I thought most people locked themselves in.

But if the lock works properly and cannot be picked, why do you
need
extra steps to prevent someone with a valid key from unlocking
it?

What makes you so sure it's a valid key ? whatever that means.
Are skeleton keys valid. ?

Which would mean the lock is rubbish. If you're out of your house,
how
can you lock it from the inside to prevent a key being used?

You can't, but when leaving the house you have to have some way of
getting
back in, but when already in the house you don't need a way to get
in
because you're already in.

Leaving your key in the door when you're inside has advanatges too,
such
as in a fire you don't have to go find your key and neither does
anyone
else who might happen to be in your house.
There are disadvantages too if someone broke in or could get to yuor
key
through the letter bix like I did once. (although) that was an
advantage
in my case.

I thought that doors only had one key in general use,

What makes you think that ? I knopw couples that have a key
each some even give a key to thier kids when they are old enough.

Yeah, IMO its stupid not to do it that way for all but the youngest kids.

Unless you can't trust the kid for some reason

The only real consideration there is that some lose things a lot
and some are mindlessly paranoid about what someone else
might do with a lost key. Unlikely to be much of a problem
with most given that hardly anyone is likely to know what
the key fits, tho I spose you could argue that if the loser is
a teenager, they might have arsehole druggy mates who do.

Or that they are carrying something with their name and address on it.
Which is why I think it's not a good idea to walk around with a driver license, passport or any other info where you details can be easily aquried just by looking and reading.


Mad to never give a kid like that a key so that someone
else has to always be home to let them into the house
now that so many have both or the only parent working.

Depends on the kid and situation.



or other same with 'adults' too.

with the spare key in
some safe place, in which case the problem doesn't arise.

What do you mean in a safe place ?

Where the house occupants can get at it
easily, but a burglar is unlikely to find it.

Yes that's the idea.

Easy to do if the hidden key is only ever used very
occasionally when someone forgets to take the key
with them and is in the habit of just shutting the
door behind them as they leave. Trivially fixed by
changing the lock so it has to be locked with a key.

But most locks that I know of for front doors do lock when the door is closed.
I think most households in the UK have this type of door.
which is the oppersite for car doors which anyone can open once unlocked.


When we were kids we used to do that with the car
key, the spare was kept inside the hinged door that
covered the petrol tank filler on the Zephyr estate.

I guess that's OK unless someone is watching.

Unlikely that they would find the car again some time
later, remember what they saw and use the key to steal it.

Never happened with us.

Cars get stolen to order these thefts are planned.
If yuo are stealing a car for anythig other than perhaps a joy ride you'd be watching it and teh person using it.



Great when out shopping with the car in the big
carparks so the kids could go off by themselves
and be able to get in the car when they arrived
back at the car before the driver did.

I guess so but I can't work out the advantage in that.

Yes, you actually are that stupid.

I wouldnlt be stupid enough to hand car keys to kids telling them to go wait in the car while I shop or do anything else.


Why can't the kids learn to wait for the adults to get back to the car.

Corse they can, but its more convenient to be able to
wait in the car, particularly in winter with outside carparks.

So they are in the car with the keys and no one will think look a car with keys, easier to steal.
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-n...ds-it-10088735

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/m...-a3298921.html



If the key is left in the lock inside then you won't be able to lock
the door from the outside, in fact the key won't go in the lock.

But the key can be inserted on the inside well after its been
locked from the outside when someone leaves the house earlier.

So, how does that changes things ?


If one is in the house, the other can ring to be let in.

What happens IF that person dies or is taken seriously ill.

Doesnt happen often enough to matter and
the hidden key fixes that problem anyway.

It does happens,

Not often enough to matter. And you can always break
in in the very unlikely event that that does happen.

That's how I got my cat.
Person died in teh housbe opersite a friends, no one had seen him for 3 days and the door locked from the inside, the police had to break the door down. So good for security but not very good for much else.



and hidden keys are OK if you know where they are and can get to them.

Duh.

Most burlgulars have a pretty good idea where these so called secrete key places are.



Last year a care for downstairs couldn't get in to help the old lady
downstairs because she was bedridden so couldn't answer the door.

So that person should have their own key. Hardly rocket science.

They can't have their own key ****wit, the care company would need to keep all the keys for every person that look after it's just not practical.
This is why the care company had a unitl installed on the outside of the door with a combination that you needed to type in in order to open the biox to get the key to the door, it's standard practice.


The key was in a box that had a combination lock and the carer was
? covering for someone that was off work due to ill health, her phone
had just died (power wise) so she could know the care compnay to
get the combination, lucmkily I was in and luckily she had an old
iphone with 30 pin connector so charged her phone enough to
make the call to get the combination to the key.

And she would have been able to find someone with their
own phone and call using that to get the combination.
yes she cou,d have approached any starnger in teh street at 8pm and asked to borrow thier phone and phoned from an unkiown number asking for the combination to get into a house. yes very secure.


And those key boxes are trivially easy for a real crim to break into.

That's their problem the company not the carer.



reams of your even sillier **** flushed where it belongs

On Thu, 12 Oct 2017 03:19:14 -0700, whisky-dave wrote:

On Wednesday, 11 October 2017 17:25:28 UTC+1, Bob Eager wrote:
On Wed, 11 Oct 2017 12:21:51 +0100, Dave W wrote:

the other can ring to be let in.

What happens IF that person dies or is taken seriously ill.

You can't get in, either because you left the house by slamming the
Yale lock without having its key, or you left the house via the key
lock we're talking about, and the person put their own key in the
lock after you'd gone.

Which is why I can unlock our front door from my mobile.

Can others .

No. At least, a vrowbar would be easier. It has 2FA.



--
My posts are my copyright and if @diy_forums or Home Owners' Hub
wish to copy them they can pay me £1 a message.
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK: http://www.mirrorservice.org
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On Thursday, 12 October 2017 12:25:58 UTC+1, Bob Eager wrote:
On Thu, 12 Oct 2017 03:19:14 -0700, whisky-dave wrote:

On Wednesday, 11 October 2017 17:25:28 UTC+1, Bob Eager wrote:
On Wed, 11 Oct 2017 12:21:51 +0100, Dave W wrote:

the other can ring to be let in.

What happens IF that person dies or is taken seriously ill.

You can't get in, either because you left the house by slamming the
Yale lock without having its key, or you left the house via the key
lock we're talking about, and the person put their own key in the
lock after you'd gone.

Which is why I can unlock our front door from my mobile.

Can others .

No. At least, a vrowbar would be easier. It has 2FA.

So no one else can get into your property ? what happens if something goes wrong with the phone ?, what if someone such as the wife or kids want to get in ?

I'm glad I don;t have such an inflexable system.

On Thu, 12 Oct 2017 05:27:02 -0700, whisky-dave wrote:

On Thursday, 12 October 2017 12:25:58 UTC+1, Bob Eager wrote:
On Thu, 12 Oct 2017 03:19:14 -0700, whisky-dave wrote:

On Wednesday, 11 October 2017 17:25:28 UTC+1, Bob Eager wrote:
On Wed, 11 Oct 2017 12:21:51 +0100, Dave W wrote:

the other can ring to be let in.

What happens IF that person dies or is taken seriously ill.

You can't get in, either because you left the house by slamming
the Yale lock without having its key, or you left the house via
the key lock we're talking about, and the person put their own key
in the lock after you'd gone.

Which is why I can unlock our front door from my mobile.

Can others .

No. At least, a vrowbar would be easier. It has 2FA.

So no one else can get into your property ? what happens if something
goes wrong with the phone ?, what if someone such as the wife or kids
want to get in ?

The normal entry method is a key. Those flat metal things.

The family all have the same phone capability.

--
My posts are my copyright and if @diy_forums or Home Owners' Hub
wish to copy them they can pay me £1 a message.
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK: http://www.mirrorservice.org
*lightning surge protection* - a w_tom conductor

On Thursday, 12 October 2017 13:55:34 UTC+1, Bob Eager wrote:
On Thu, 12 Oct 2017 05:27:02 -0700, whisky-dave wrote:

On Thursday, 12 October 2017 12:25:58 UTC+1, Bob Eager wrote:
On Thu, 12 Oct 2017 03:19:14 -0700, whisky-dave wrote:

On Wednesday, 11 October 2017 17:25:28 UTC+1, Bob Eager wrote:
On Wed, 11 Oct 2017 12:21:51 +0100, Dave W wrote:

the other can ring to be let in.

What happens IF that person dies or is taken seriously ill.

You can't get in, either because you left the house by slamming
the Yale lock without having its key, or you left the house via
the key lock we're talking about, and the person put their own key
in the lock after you'd gone.

Which is why I can unlock our front door from my mobile.

Can others .

No. At least, a vrowbar would be easier. It has 2FA.

So no one else can get into your property ? what happens if something
goes wrong with the phone ?, what if someone such as the wife or kids
want to get in ?

The normal entry method is a key. Those flat metal things.

So the same problem as anyone else would have with a key from it getting lost stolen or broken.


The family all have the same phone capability.

So anyone with the phone can get in too, well hopefully whatever security is on your phone and everyone else in the family that has it.
Of course we all know phones with such security never get stolen.

On Thu, 12 Oct 2017 07:16:26 -0700, whisky-dave wrote:

On Thursday, 12 October 2017 13:55:34 UTC+1, Bob Eager wrote:
On Thu, 12 Oct 2017 05:27:02 -0700, whisky-dave wrote:

On Thursday, 12 October 2017 12:25:58 UTC+1, Bob Eager wrote:
On Thu, 12 Oct 2017 03:19:14 -0700, whisky-dave wrote:

On Wednesday, 11 October 2017 17:25:28 UTC+1, Bob Eager wrote:
On Wed, 11 Oct 2017 12:21:51 +0100, Dave W wrote:

the other can ring to be let in.

What happens IF that person dies or is taken seriously ill.

You can't get in, either because you left the house by slamming
the Yale lock without having its key, or you left the house via
the key lock we're talking about, and the person put their own
key in the lock after you'd gone.

Which is why I can unlock our front door from my mobile.

Can others .

No. At least, a vrowbar would be easier. It has 2FA.

So no one else can get into your property ? what happens if
something goes wrong with the phone ?, what if someone such as the
wife or kids want to get in ?

The normal entry method is a key. Those flat metal things.

So the same problem as anyone else would have with a key from it getting
lost stolen or broken.

No.

One can get into the house using a key.

If that is lost or stolen, or forgotten, one can use the phone to gain
entry.

The family all have the same phone capability.

So anyone with the phone can get in too, well hopefully whatever
security is on your phone and everyone else in the family that has it.
Of course we all know phones with such security never get stolen.

You clearly don't understand what 2FA is.

--
My posts are my copyright and if @diy_forums or Home Owners' Hub
wish to copy them they can pay me £1 a message.
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK: http://www.mirrorservice.org
*lightning surge protection* - a w_tom conductor

"Bob Eager" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 12 Oct 2017 07:16:26 -0700, whisky-dave wrote:

On Thursday, 12 October 2017 13:55:34 UTC+1, Bob Eager wrote:
On Thu, 12 Oct 2017 05:27:02 -0700, whisky-dave wrote:

On Thursday, 12 October 2017 12:25:58 UTC+1, Bob Eager wrote:
On Thu, 12 Oct 2017 03:19:14 -0700, whisky-dave wrote:

On Wednesday, 11 October 2017 17:25:28 UTC+1, Bob Eager wrote:
On Wed, 11 Oct 2017 12:21:51 +0100, Dave W wrote:

the other can ring to be let in.

What happens IF that person dies or is taken seriously ill.

You can't get in, either because you left the house by slamming
the Yale lock without having its key, or you left the house via
the key lock we're talking about, and the person put their own
key in the lock after you'd gone.

Which is why I can unlock our front door from my mobile.

Can others .

No. At least, a vrowbar would be easier. It has 2FA.

So no one else can get into your property ? what happens if
something goes wrong with the phone ?, what if someone such as the
wife or kids want to get in ?

The normal entry method is a key. Those flat metal things.

So the same problem as anyone else would have with a key from it getting
lost stolen or broken.

No.

One can get into the house using a key.

If that is lost or stolen, or forgotten, one can use the phone to gain
entry.

The family all have the same phone capability.

So anyone with the phone can get in too, well hopefully whatever
security is on your phone and everyone else in the family that has it.
Of course we all know phones with such security never get stolen.

You clearly don't understand what 2FA is.

I've never heard of a lock that can be opened by a mobile before; it must be
electric. Presumably it stays locked when there's a power cut. (I don't know
what 2FA is)
--
Dave W

"whisky-dave" wrote in message
...
On Wednesday, 11 October 2017 17:25:28 UTC+1, Bob Eager wrote:
On Wed, 11 Oct 2017 12:21:51 +0100, Dave W wrote:

the other can ring to be let in.

What happens IF that person dies or is taken seriously ill.

You can't get in, either because you left the house by slamming the
Yale
lock without having its key, or you left the house via the key lock
we're talking about, and the person put their own key in the lock after
you'd gone.

Which is why I can unlock our front door from my mobile.

Can others .

Yep, any decent modern electronic lock can unlock when any
phone you specify turns up. And have fancy rules so that will
only happen in the hours you specify for say pet feeders while
you are away, but not once you come home, and other rules
like say with service people who are only allowed in on one
day and can't get in in the future to loot the place etc.

The best of them allow the same rules with RFID things too
so with your person who helps someone daily who can't
open the door for them, no stupid box with a key in it
with a combination lock that can be broken into etc.

The world's moved on and its now so much easier to do
anything you like lock wise, even unlosable RFIDs for little
kids with rules about what is possible so that the more
adventurous 3 year old can't go wandering down the
street since they can't use it to get out, but if say they
climb out the window, they can get back in thru the door.

And you can track the little buggers if they do climb out
the window too.