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UK diy (uk.d-i-y) For the discussion of all topics related to diy (do-it-yourself) in the UK. All levels of experience and proficency are welcome to join in to ask questions or offer solutions. |
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#1
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Propane or Butane
OK .. at a basic caravanning level 0 Propane is used for cold weather at
Butane the rest of the year. Fully understand Butane has performance drop off with temp. I jut bought a new gas BBQ ... it came with a 75mBar Propane Regulator ...... Now temporarily I just stuck on a Butane regulator and connected to an existing Butane bottle. My question is will I get higher heat output performance if I use Propane ? Read on several forums -= Propane burns hotter Yet the facts seem to be: Propane = 96 Megajoules of energy per cubic metre. Butane = 126 Megajoules of energy per cubic metre (far more than propane) However Propane regulators feed a higher rate or gas to compensate. So is it worth me changing to Propane for more heat? |
#2
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Propane or Butane
rick wrote:
OK .. at a basic caravanning level 0 Propane is used for cold weather at Butane the rest of the year. Fully understand Butane has performance drop off with temp. I jut bought a new gas BBQ ... it came with a 75mBar Propane Regulator ..... Now temporarily I just stuck on a Butane regulator and connected to an existing Butane bottle. My question is will I get higher heat output performance if I use Propane ? Read on several forums -= Propane burns hotter Yet the facts seem to be: Propane = 96 Megajoules of energy per cubic metre. Butane = 126 Megajoules of energy per cubic metre (far more than propane) However Propane regulators feed a higher rate or gas to compensate. So is it worth me changing to Propane for more heat? If my memory serves me right, from our caravanning days when we used both fuels (with the appropriate regulators), the heat output of the grill, oven and hob seemed to be higher on butane. Interestingly, the modern way to do it is to have one regulator for both fuels. I guess this means that heat output must be higher on butane. Tim -- Please don't feed the trolls |
#3
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Propane or Butane
rick used his keyboard to write :
Yet the facts seem to be: Propane = 96 Megajoules of energy per cubic metre. Butane = 126 Megajoules of energy per cubic metre (far more than propane) There is more heat / better value to be had from butane. The only benefit of propane is that it turns to gas at temperatures below freezing. The two different regulators are of a different pressure of output, so the results at the burner are the same. Some modern caravan systems use a single, bulkhead mounted regulator which is a compromise between the two pressures needed and the gas appliances designed to work reasonably well with either pressure. |
#4
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Propane or Butane
Tim+ explained :
Interestingly, the modern way to do it is to have one regulator for both fuels. I guess this means that heat output must be higher on butane. That is correct - the OP is wrong, for the same flame size butane will be the hotter. |
#5
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Propane or Butane
On 26/05/2017 21:25, rick wrote:
OK .. at a basic caravanning level 0 Propane is used for cold weather at Butane the rest of the year. Fully understand Butane has performance drop off with temp. I jut bought a new gas BBQ ... it came with a 75mBar Propane Regulator ..... Now temporarily I just stuck on a Butane regulator and connected to an existing Butane bottle. My question is will I get higher heat output performance if I use Propane ? Read on several forums -= Propane burns hotter Yet the facts seem to be: Propane = 96 Megajoules of energy per cubic metre. Butane = 126 Megajoules of energy per cubic metre (far more than propane) However Propane regulators feed a higher rate or gas to compensate. So is it worth me changing to Propane for more heat? Flow-rate is also important. When running a water heater from bottled gas (running a shower), it was specified to run on propane (37mbar) or butane (28mbar). It was also specified that a single propane bottle was sufficient, but if butane was used, two must be used in parallel. The reason was (and we proved this practically) that the high flow rate (and hence high quantities of gas vaporising) cooled the bottle and if a single butane bottle was used, the temperature would drop so low that it would cease to vaporise - dual bottles halved the rate from each and kept them warm enough, while propane can vaporise at a lower temperature anyway. During the winter, only propane would work due to the lower ambient temperature. SteveW |
#6
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Propane or Butane
On 26/05/2017 21:42, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
Tim+ explained : Interestingly, the modern way to do it is to have one regulator for both fuels. I guess this means that heat output must be higher on butane. That is correct - the OP is wrong, for the same flame size butane will be the hotter. Not me .. saying it is hotter .. just what is posted on many sites ... http://www.infomania.co.uk/archives/234 http://singletrackworld.com/forum/to...pane-or-butane etc etc Hence my question ... Best explanation so far ( I think ) is: Butane has a higher heat output by volume (ie it produces more heat per litre), but it's slightly lower by weight (ie it produces slightly less heat per Kg). Depends which figures you read. Again.Butane has a higher calorific value than Propane though. (3300 BTU/cu.ft vs 2500 BTU/cu.ft) To offset this, Propane is supplied from the cylinder at a slightly higher pressure than Butane (37mbar vs 28mbar). So, in theory at least, the two gases should be practically indistinguishable in use at normal temps. A Propane cylinder will not last quite as long as Butane though because of this, but has the advantage of far superior cold weather performance. |
#7
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Propane or Butane
On 26/05/17 21:25, rick wrote:
OK .. at a basic caravanning level 0 Propane is used for cold weather at Butane the rest of the year. Fully understand Butane has performance drop off with temp. From the old caravanning days: In autumn after a frosty night, we got zero out of the cylinders until the morning warmed up slightly. I jut bought a new gas BBQ ... it came with a 75mBar Propane Regulator ..... Now temporarily I just stuck on a Butane regulator and connected to an existing Butane bottle. My question is will I get higher heat output performance if I use Propane ? Read on several forums -= Propane burns hotter Yet the facts seem to be: Propane = 96 Megajoules of energy per cubic metre. Butane = 126 Megajoules of energy per cubic metre (far more than propane) However Propane regulators feed a higher rate or gas to compensate. So is it worth me changing to Propane for more heat? I don't think so - it's propane if you wnat it to work all year around, but otherwise either works as well. |
#8
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Propane or Butane
On 26/05/2017 21:40, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
rick used his keyboard to write : Yet the facts seem to be: Propane = 96 Megajoules of energy per cubic metre. Butane = 126 Megajoules of energy per cubic metre (far more than propane) There is more heat / better value to be had from butane. That is correct, however butane regulators run at 28 mbar and propane at 37 mbar, or at least they should. I thought the idea was that the gasses at these pressures gave approximately the same output for the same injector/burner. It's not a coincidence that (126 / 96) x 28 = ~37 |
#9
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Propane or Butane
On 26/05/2017 21:25, rick wrote:
OK .. at a basic caravanning level 0 Propane is used for cold weather at Butane the rest of the year. Fully understand Butane has performance drop off with temp. It stops working altogether at just above freezing point. So that early cuppa can't be had. Bah! I jut bought a new gas BBQ ... it came with a 75mBar Propane Regulator ..... Now temporarily I just stuck on a Butane regulator and connected to an existing Butane bottle. My question is will I get higher heat output performance if I use Propane ? Read on several forums -= Propane burns hotter Yet the facts seem to be: Propane = 96 Megajoules of energy per cubic metre. Butane = 126 Megajoules of energy per cubic metre (far more than propane) However Propane regulators feed a higher rate or gas to compensate. So is it worth me changing to Propane for more heat? No. I use both and there's no difference. Bill |
#10
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Propane or Butane
On 27/05/2017 05:13, Bill Wright wrote:
So is it worth me changing to Propane for more heat? No. I use both and there's no difference. Bill Thanks guys - I'll stick with Butane Bottle I have then. |
#11
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Propane or Butane
After serious thinking rick wrote :
On 26/05/2017 21:42, Harry Bloomfield wrote: Tim+ explained : Interestingly, the modern way to do it is to have one regulator for both fuels. I guess this means that heat output must be higher on butane. That is correct - the OP is wrong, for the same flame size butane will be the hotter. Not me .. saying it is hotter .. just what is posted on many sites ... http://www.infomania.co.uk/archives/234 You are mis-reading it quote.. 'A given quantity of butane will burn hotter than propane but in fact propane regulators release the gas at a higher rate to compensate.' As I said, butane burns hotter than propane. |
#12
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Propane or Butane
On 27/05/2017 17:47, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
After serious thinking rick wrote : On 26/05/2017 21:42, Harry Bloomfield wrote: Tim+ explained : Interestingly, the modern way to do it is to have one regulator for both fuels. I guess this means that heat output must be higher on butane. That is correct - the OP is wrong, for the same flame size butane will be the hotter. Not me .. saying it is hotter .. just what is posted on many sites ... http://www.infomania.co.uk/archives/234 You are mis-reading it quote.. 'A given quantity of butane will burn hotter than propane but in fact propane regulators release the gas at a higher rate to compensate.' As I said, butane burns hotter than propane. pedantic hat on This says otherwise! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adiaba...me_temperature Only by 10 degrees though! /pedantic hat on |
#13
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Propane or Butane
rick wrote:
On 27/05/2017 05:13, Bill Wright wrote: So is it worth me changing to Propane for more heat? No. I use both and there's no difference. Bill Thanks guys - I'll stick with Butane Bottle I have then. Definitely. With the appropriate regulator, heat output doesn't vary much but butane, per cylinder, per therm, is considerably cheaper. As long as you don't need cold weather performance it's cheapest option. Tim -- Please don't feed the trolls |
#14
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Propane or Butane
Fredxxx formulated on Saturday :
On 27/05/2017 17:47, Harry Bloomfield wrote: After serious thinking rick wrote : On 26/05/2017 21:42, Harry Bloomfield wrote: Tim+ explained : Interestingly, the modern way to do it is to have one regulator for both fuels. I guess this means that heat output must be higher on butane. That is correct - the OP is wrong, for the same flame size butane will be the hotter. Not me .. saying it is hotter .. just what is posted on many sites ... http://www.infomania.co.uk/archives/234 You are mis-reading it quote.. 'A given quantity of butane will burn hotter than propane but in fact propane regulators release the gas at a higher rate to compensate.' As I said, butane burns hotter than propane. The above mentions a given quantity, which also agrees with what I said about butane providing better value heat per £ spent. pedantic hat on This says otherwise! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adiaba...me_temperature Only by 10 degrees though! /pedantic hat on |
#15
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Propane or Butane
Tim+ was thinking very hard :
Definitely. With the appropriate regulator, heat output doesn't vary much but butane, per cylinder, per therm, is considerably cheaper. Cheaper, but not considerably so. Using the correct regulator pressure for the gas, there should be little noticeable difference. There is a slight difference when I used to bother to swap between butane and propane using the compromise between the two gases bulkhead regulator. Now I just use propane for all seasons. The petrol stations which supply car type gas, vary the butane/propane mix depending on the season. As long as you don't need cold weather performance it's cheapest option. That is about it, just remember butane is near useless -10 C. |
#16
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Propane or Butane
In article , Harry Bloomfield
writes rick used his keyboard to write : Yet the facts seem to be: Propane = 96 Megajoules of energy per cubic metre. Butane = 126 Megajoules of energy per cubic metre (far more than propane) There is more heat / better value to be had from butane. The only benefit of propane is that it turns to gas at temperatures below freezing. The two different regulators are of a different pressure of output, so the results at the burner are the same. Some modern caravan systems use a single, bulkhead mounted regulator I think they All do. EU regulations and all that. which is a compromise between the two pressures needed and the gas appliances designed to work reasonably well with either pressure. -- bert |
#17
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Propane or Butane
In article , Fredxxx
writes On 26/05/2017 21:40, Harry Bloomfield wrote: rick used his keyboard to write : Yet the facts seem to be: Propane = 96 Megajoules of energy per cubic metre. Butane = 126 Megajoules of energy per cubic metre (far more than propane) There is more heat / better value to be had from butane. That is correct, however butane regulators run at 28 mbar and propane at 37 mbar, or at least they should. I thought the idea was that the gasses at these pressures gave approximately the same output for the same injector/burner. It's not a coincidence that (126 / 96) x 28 = ~37 The idea is that a given appliance should perform identically ( and safely) regardless of which fuel was in use. As someone has already mentioned the fittings fixed bulkhead regulator on caravans has rather screwed that up -as well as creating problems with heavy ends. -- bert |
#18
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Propane or Butane
In article , Tim Watts
writes On 26/05/17 21:25, rick wrote: OK .. at a basic caravanning level 0 Propane is used for cold weather at Butane the rest of the year. Fully understand Butane has performance drop off with temp. From the old caravanning days: In autumn after a frosty night, we got zero out of the cylinders until the morning warmed up slightly. The funniest thing was to see people wrap the bottle in a blanket to keep it warm Snip -- bert |
#19
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Propane or Butane
On 27/05/17 21:42, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
Tim+ was thinking very hard : Definitely. With the appropriate regulator, heat output doesn't vary much but butane, per cylinder, per therm, is considerably cheaper. Cheaper, but not considerably so. Using the correct regulator pressure for the gas, there should be little noticeable difference. There is a slight difference when I used to bother to swap between butane and propane using the compromise between the two gases bulkhead regulator. Now I just use propane for all seasons. The petrol stations which supply car type gas, vary the butane/propane mix depending on the season. As long as you don't need cold weather performance it's cheapest option. That is about it, just remember butane is near useless -10 C. More like -1C |
#20
Posted to uk.d-i-y
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Propane or Butane
In article , Harry Bloomfield
writes Tim+ was thinking very hard : Definitely. With the appropriate regulator, heat output doesn't vary much but butane, per cylinder, per therm, is considerably cheaper. Cheaper, but not considerably so. Using the correct regulator pressure for the gas, there should be little noticeable difference. There is a slight difference when I used to bother to swap between butane and propane using the compromise between the two gases bulkhead regulator. Now I just use propane for all seasons. The petrol stations which supply car type gas, vary the butane/propane mix depending on the season. Autogas in the UK is industrial grade propane. As long as you don't need cold weather performance it's cheapest option. That is about it, just remember butane is near useless -10 C. -- bert |
#21
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Propane or Butane
In article , Tim Watts
writes On 27/05/17 21:42, Harry Bloomfield wrote: Tim+ was thinking very hard : Definitely. With the appropriate regulator, heat output doesn't vary much but butane, per cylinder, per therm, is considerably cheaper. Cheaper, but not considerably so. Using the correct regulator pressure for the gas, there should be little noticeable difference. There is a slight difference when I used to bother to swap between butane and propane using the compromise between the two gases bulkhead regulator. Now I just use propane for all seasons. The petrol stations which supply car type gas, vary the butane/propane mix depending on the season. As long as you don't need cold weather performance it's cheapest option. That is about it, just remember butane is near useless -10 C. More like -1C Theoretical boiling point at atmospheric pressure but impurities and need for pressure to create flow means its pretty useless blew about 3C -- bert |
#22
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Propane or Butane
Tim Watts wrote:
On 27/05/17 21:42, Harry Bloomfield wrote: Tim+ was thinking very hard : Definitely. With the appropriate regulator, heat output doesn't vary much but butane, per cylinder, per therm, is considerably cheaper. Cheaper, but not considerably so. Using the correct regulator pressure for the gas, there should be little noticeable difference. There is a slight difference when I used to bother to swap between butane and propane using the compromise between the two gases bulkhead regulator. Now I just use propane for all seasons. The petrol stations which supply car type gas, vary the butane/propane mix depending on the season. As long as you don't need cold weather performance it's cheapest option. That is about it, just remember butane is near useless -10 C. More like -1C In practice, it's pretty rubbish well above that as any significant off-gassing cools the liquid below ambient and dramatically reduces output. Tim -- Please don't feed the trolls |
#23
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Propane or Butane
On Sat, 27 May 2017 23:35:11 +0100, bert wrote:
In article , Tim Watts writes On 26/05/17 21:25, rick wrote: OK .. at a basic caravanning level 0 Propane is used for cold weather at Butane the rest of the year. Fully understand Butane has performance drop off with temp. From the old caravanning days: In autumn after a frosty night, we got zero out of the cylinders until the morning warmed up slightly. The funniest thing was to see people wrap the bottle in a blanket to keep it warm Snip YUup, as most of the cooling is due to the gas boiling off. One cold day, in a mountain hut in N. Wales, I was using a twin-burner stove with the butane cylinder on one of the burners. There was much alarm due to this until I pointed out that the condensation on the cylinder was a good indicator of some way to go before the big bang! BTW, what about the propane/butane azeotropic mixture that I've seen around? ICR the colour of the cylinder, but it seemed to be a possible solution. -- Peter. The gods will stay away whilst religions hold sway |
#24
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Propane or Butane
bert used his keyboard to write :
-as well as creating problems with heavy ends. Which is easy to solve - I solved it by simply raising the height of the bulkhead regulator, so the heavy ends are forced to drain back to the tank. |
#25
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Propane or Butane
Tim Watts wrote :
That is about it, just remember butane is near useless -10 C. More like -1C Sorry, I meant +10 C - and ambient of +10 C. At +10 C the in use cylinder can rapidely be cooled by gas evaporation to below the -1 gassing temperature. |
#26
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Propane or Butane
On 27/05/2017 17:47, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
After serious thinking rick wrote : On 26/05/2017 21:42, Harry Bloomfield wrote: Tim+ explained : Interestingly, the modern way to do it is to have one regulator for both fuels. I guess this means that heat output must be higher on butane. That is correct - the OP is wrong, for the same flame size butane will be the hotter. Not me .. saying it is hotter .. just what is posted on many sites ... http://www.infomania.co.uk/archives/234 You are mis-reading it quote.. 'A given quantity of butane will burn hotter than propane but in fact propane regulators release the gas at a higher rate to compensate.' As I said, butane burns hotter than propane. On that one I agree .. but not on the others ... In fact on this one form a BBQ manufacturer ... it is even more confusing https://www.outbackbarbeque.co.uk/sh...do-i-need.html It states modern BBQ should be run on propane .... they will run on butane but not efficiently. Yet in their picture they show Butane !! |
#27
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Propane or Butane
On 27/05/2017 23:35, Tim Watts wrote:
On 27/05/17 21:42, Harry Bloomfield wrote: Tim+ was thinking very hard : Definitely. With the appropriate regulator, heat output doesn't vary much but butane, per cylinder, per therm, is considerably cheaper. Cheaper, but not considerably so. Using the correct regulator pressure for the gas, there should be little noticeable difference. There is a slight difference when I used to bother to swap between butane and propane using the compromise between the two gases bulkhead regulator. Now I just use propane for all seasons. The petrol stations which supply car type gas, vary the butane/propane mix depending on the season. As long as you don't need cold weather performance it's cheapest option. That is about it, just remember butane is near useless -10 C. More like -1C agree used a caravan once and at -3 not gas for heating or cooking at all ... very cold. |
#28
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Propane or Butane
Tim+ wrote:
Harry Bloomfield Wrote in message: Tim+ was thinking very hard : Definitely. With the appropriate regulator, heat output doesn't vary much but butane, per cylinder, per therm, is considerably cheaper. Cheaper, but not considerably so. Yes, considerably so. Cylinders of butane are generally 20% heavier (for the same cost) than their propane equivalents. Fuel is more calorific. Extra weight + extra calories = considerable cost saving. Tim Oops. Okay, not 20% and not the same price but the balance is still in favour of butane (cost-wise). Tim -- Please don't feed the trolls |
#29
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Propane or Butane
On 28/05/2017 21:55, Tim+ wrote:
Tim+ wrote: Harry Bloomfield Wrote in message: Tim+ was thinking very hard : Definitely. With the appropriate regulator, heat output doesn't vary much but butane, per cylinder, per therm, is considerably cheaper. Cheaper, but not considerably so. Yes, considerably so. Cylinders of butane are generally 20% heavier (for the same cost) than their propane equivalents. Fuel is more calorific. Extra weight + extra calories = considerable cost saving. Tim Oops. Okay, not 20% and not the same price but the balance is still in favour of butane (cost-wise). Tim Strange that manufacturers are now supplying Propane regs as standard and recommending propane as the most efficient - although admittedly they do say will also work on butane. Both Outbackand Fire Mountain (2 big names) give that advice. |
#30
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Propane or Butane
rick wrote:
On 28/05/2017 21:55, Tim+ wrote: Tim+ wrote: Harry Bloomfield Wrote in message: Tim+ was thinking very hard : Definitely. With the appropriate regulator, heat output doesn't vary much but butane, per cylinder, per therm, is considerably cheaper. Cheaper, but not considerably so. Yes, considerably so. Cylinders of butane are generally 20% heavier (for the same cost) than their propane equivalents. Fuel is more calorific. Extra weight + extra calories = considerable cost saving. Tim Oops. Okay, not 20% and not the same price but the balance is still in favour of butane (cost-wise). Tim Strange that manufacturers are now supplying Propane regs as standard and recommending propane as the most efficient - although admittedly they do say will also work on butane. Both Outbackand Fire Mountain (2 big names) give that advice. Probably because they don't want complaints from customers of the heat output dropping during use in colder weather. Easier to just say "use propane" and then they don't get any aggro from folk who don't understand physics. Tim -- Please don't feed the trolls |
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