In article ,
tim... wrote:

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Mike Tomlinson wrote:
En el artículo , tim...
escribió:

how can you avoid this

Don't use Windows 10. Simples.

Just the same has been happening with Win7.

no it's not

with Win 7 you can accept each new update manually (it's awkward to do,
but not impossible)

With Win 10 you either set your PC in a mode that no downloads are
installed,

You can set Win7 not to download any upgrades too.

or get all the "new" ones all at once

As will Win7 if you turn it on again.

tim



--
*Can fat people go skinny-dipping?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

If you look carefully at windows 10 settings you will see that you can set
so called quiet times for updates. What I've noticed is that its kind of
intelligent in that if its a small update that does not require a restart,
then it silently does this, but leaves the larger ones until the quiet
times.
I'm guess ing one of the updates you got was the anniversary update. After
a while Windows needs you to be running this complete new version of windows
as after this, starting this month of October its delivering updates as what
they call roll ups via a kind of system that allows one machine to help out
updating another much like the way torrents work.
Then the file sits and waits and is all installed as one big chunk at the
quiet time or when you tell it to look and do any updates.
I believe myself though that there is a limit to this don't do it now
system as several times the machine has given me prompts to restart and has
taken an age to do so.

The other annoyance is that when a major update comes long like the
anniversary one, you get new so called features usually meaning adware and
prompts to buy something new Microsoft wants to sell you, like a rental of
Office or some other service, not only that but you also find that some of
your 'adjusted' software such as Outlook Express that has been adapted to
run on 10 are dumped into a removed folder conveniently without telling you
so you lose all the emails you had stored.
Until Microsoft stop being so petty and precious about older software I
still distrust their motives.
Brian

--
----- -
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...

Blind user, so no pictures please!
"Broadback" wrote in message
...
Twice in the last 24 hours my computer has rebooted and spent a long time
updating Windows 10. Why 2 large updates in such a short period?

Another sillyness is that if you have installed, lets say Office 2002 and
the 2007 compatibility pack and its format conversion kit, you will get
failed update reports for some of the security updates that software had and
have been removed by Microsoft. its as if Microsoft still leave up the links
to the updates but moved the data.As yet apart form finding the updates from
various sources and installing them manually you will it seems keep getting
nice reports on failed updates. You can hide some of them, but it seems the
office ones keep on being retried no matter what.

I was actually surprised that this old version of Office works, and to be
honest its really all one needs with the conversion routines.
Another mod I did was the return of classic menus in explorer and classic
shell as well.
Brian

--
----- -
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...

Blind user, so no pictures please!
"tim..." wrote in message
...

"Clive Page" wrote in message
...
On 23/10/2016 10:33, Broadback wrote:
Twice in the last 24 hours my computer has rebooted and spent a long
time updating Windows 10. Why 2 large updates in such a short period?

If you tell it you have a metered connection you can avoid having
(almost) all updates. Then when it's convenient, change that setting and
you get them. Since Microsoft make so may cock-ups, it's good to be a
month or two behind on updates.

unfortunately, when you do this you are still going to get the most recent
one "untested"

how can you avoid this

tim

In message , Mike Tomlinson
writes
or get all the "new" ones all at once

That's the way it works for Win7 now. All or nothing. Is the view
nice from that stone you've been living under?

Last night I set this W7 machine up to perform some extended processing
while I slept. This morning it had restarted, and there were a whole
bunch of new updates installed. I suspect the large number was because
the Windows update service has just been sitting there when I have
manually checked for updates.
It had been set to download but don't install. It was now set to
automatic downloads.
I have now reset it to download but don't install. It appears that this
works as it always did ie providing a list of updates with the ability
to select or deselect installation.

I have only lost what was done last night, but it is way beyond just
annoying.

Have there been any recent changes to the way W7 updates operate, and
are the changes documented anywhere?
--
Bill

On 23/10/2016 23:12, bert wrote:

Well I switched on a W10 laptop which wasn't on this occasion within
wi-fi range and none of my apps were available.


Which apps?

Bill wrote:

Have there been any recent changes to the way W7 updates operate

Yes, they're now based on "roll-ups" where you get all updates at once,
same as Win10, see the microsoft blog entry I posted up there ^^^

In message , Andy Burns
writes
Bill wrote:

Have there been any recent changes to the way W7 updates operate

Yes, they're now based on "roll-ups" where you get all updates at once,
same as Win10, see the microsoft blog entry I posted up there ^^^

https://blogs.technet.microsoft.com/windowsitpro/2016/10/07/more-on-wi
ndows-7-and-windows-8-1-servicing-changes/

Hmmm, yes I did see that and assumed that, in my case, if I left updates
set as previously, they would just download and not install until
requested.

Indeed, the (post restart?) optional updates that are listed seem to be
still sitting there waiting for their boxes to be ticked. Additionally,
the preview of the October monthly rollup seems to provide some relevant
"more info" unlike the Wndows 10 updates, which seem to be offered
blind.

What really does worry me is if W10's forced updating of drivers comes
to W7.
--
Bill

On Sunday, 23 October 2016 11:57:24 UTC+1, GB wrote:
On 23/10/2016 11:46, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 23/10/16 11:24, Bod wrote:
On 23/10/2016 11:13, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 23/10/16 10:33, Broadback wrote:
Twice in the last 24 hours my computer has rebooted and spent a long
time updating Windows 10. Why 2 large updates in such a short period?

Because one depended on the other.
Because its ****ing winders.

You dont think you own that computer do you? Microsoft owns it.


Only when you go online. Microsuck has no control when offline.


Don't be silly. It owns the operating system you are renting. It
controls the whole thing.

It's no worse than Apple. They send down a bunch of updates.

Which you have the option not to update.
I've been offered seirai the latest for a week or two if not longer, still haven't installed it, because I don't want to.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
tim... wrote:

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Mike Tomlinson wrote:
En el artículo , tim...
escribió:

how can you avoid this

Don't use Windows 10. Simples.

Just the same has been happening with Win7.

no it's not

with Win 7 you can accept each new update manually (it's awkward to do,
but not impossible)

With Win 10 you either set your PC in a mode that no downloads are
installed,

You can set Win7 not to download any upgrades too.

or get all the "new" ones all at once

As will Win7 if you turn it on again.

No

you can get it to display a box where you can select which downloads you
want and which you don't

or did last time I tried

tim

"Brian Gaff" wrote in message
...
If you look carefully at windows 10 settings you will see that you can set
so called quiet times for updates.

Which can't be more than 12 hours (or was it 8?).

what about people who don't want to be disturbed for the whole of the waking
day. Not everybody uses their computer for only the "working" day

what a nonsense

tim

tim... wrote:

"Brian Gaff" wrote in message
...
If you look carefully at windows 10 settings you will see that you can
set so called quiet times for updates.

Which can't be more than 12 hours (or was it 8?).

what about people who don't want to be disturbed for the whole of the
waking day. Not everybody uses their computer for only the "working" day

what a nonsense

tim


I leave mine running for weeks, sometimes months, and I only just
noticed that 'restart when it's quiet' setting when I was trying to work
out why I hadn't received the anniversary update. In fact, I had
received it, but I'm guessing that it was choosing not to restart and
upgrade because I leave some applications running. Either that, or my
task scheduler is broken :-)

On 24/10/16 11:50, Dan S. MacAbre wrote:
tim... wrote:

"Brian Gaff" wrote in message
...
If you look carefully at windows 10 settings you will see that you can
set so called quiet times for updates.

Which can't be more than 12 hours (or was it 8?).

what about people who don't want to be disturbed for the whole of the
waking day. Not everybody uses their computer for only the "working" day

what a nonsense

tim


I leave mine running for weeks, sometimes months, and I only just
noticed that 'restart when it's quiet' setting when I was trying to work
out why I hadn't received the anniversary update. In fact, I had
received it, but I'm guessing that it was choosing not to restart and
upgrade because I leave some applications running. Either that, or my
task scheduler is broken :-)

THank Clapton for Linux. There's a little thingy in the task bar that
comes up with an exclamation mark. It means there are updates. Even if I
click on it and say 'yes, It's my machine, and here's a password to
prove it' it wont affect anything else, and it certainly wont *insist*
on a reboot to install the changes.

--
€œBut what a weak barrier is truth when it stands in the way of an
hypothesis!€�

Mary Wollstonecraft

In article ,
tim... wrote:
Just the same has been happening with Win7.

no it's not

with Win 7 you can accept each new update manually (it's awkward to do,
but not impossible)

With Win 10 you either set your PC in a mode that no downloads are
installed,

You can set Win7 not to download any upgrades too.

or get all the "new" ones all at once

As will Win7 if you turn it on again.

No

you can get it to display a box where you can select which downloads you
want and which you don't

or did last time I tried

Mine has a 'Never check for updates (not recommended)' option. And 'Check
for updates but let me choose whether to download and install them'
And some more options. Basically covers pretty well all the needed
options.

Which option doesn't it give you'd like?

--
*Jokes about German sausage are the wurst.*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 24/10/16 11:50, Dan S. MacAbre wrote:
tim... wrote:

"Brian Gaff" wrote in message
...
If you look carefully at windows 10 settings you will see that you can
set so called quiet times for updates.

Which can't be more than 12 hours (or was it 8?).

what about people who don't want to be disturbed for the whole of the
waking day. Not everybody uses their computer for only the "working"
day

what a nonsense

tim


I leave mine running for weeks, sometimes months, and I only just
noticed that 'restart when it's quiet' setting when I was trying to work
out why I hadn't received the anniversary update. In fact, I had
received it, but I'm guessing that it was choosing not to restart and
upgrade because I leave some applications running. Either that, or my
task scheduler is broken :-)

THank Clapton for Linux. There's a little thingy in the task bar that

I'd have to say 'Thank Akkerman' :-)

comes up with an exclamation mark. It means there are updates. Even if I
click on it and say 'yes, It's my machine, and here's a password to
prove it' it wont affect anything else, and it certainly wont *insist*
on a reboot to install the changes.

I may go with Linux soon. I used to be an MVP (before I had children,
and had more spare time), so MS sent me free product install disks all
the time. But if/when I have to start paying for MS stuff, I'll
probably jump track and learn something new.

On 24/10/16 13:56, Dan S. MacAbre wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 24/10/16 11:50, Dan S. MacAbre wrote:
tim... wrote:

"Brian Gaff" wrote in message
...
If you look carefully at windows 10 settings you will see that you can
set so called quiet times for updates.

Which can't be more than 12 hours (or was it 8?).

what about people who don't want to be disturbed for the whole of the
waking day. Not everybody uses their computer for only the "working"
day

what a nonsense

tim


I leave mine running for weeks, sometimes months, and I only just
noticed that 'restart when it's quiet' setting when I was trying to work
out why I hadn't received the anniversary update. In fact, I had
received it, but I'm guessing that it was choosing not to restart and
upgrade because I leave some applications running. Either that, or my
task scheduler is broken :-)

THank Clapton for Linux. There's a little thingy in the task bar that

I'd have to say 'Thank Akkerman' :-)

comes up with an exclamation mark. It means there are updates. Even if I
click on it and say 'yes, It's my machine, and here's a password to
prove it' it wont affect anything else, and it certainly wont *insist*
on a reboot to install the changes.

I may go with Linux soon. I used to be an MVP (before I had children,
and had more spare time), so MS sent me free product install disks all
the time. But if/when I have to start paying for MS stuff, I'll
probably jump track and learn something new.

I am sure you already know how to use a mouse to click on something.

My experience ws always windows for GUIS and Linux/unix on non graphical
kit.

Moving to graphical linux was trivial.

If you can drive XP. you can drive linux Mint.

The more challenging thing is the newer applications that are not
windows apps, so have their won styles.

But Thunderbird and firefox and Libre Office all behave like they do on
wind0ows.

As does VLC for media.

Unless you want to play with it under the hood, you really dont need to
know it IS linux.



--
No Apple devices were knowingly used in the preparation of this post.

The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 24/10/16 13:56, Dan S. MacAbre wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 24/10/16 11:50, Dan S. MacAbre wrote:
tim... wrote:

"Brian Gaff" wrote in message
...
If you look carefully at windows 10 settings you will see that you
can
set so called quiet times for updates.

Which can't be more than 12 hours (or was it 8?).

what about people who don't want to be disturbed for the whole of the
waking day. Not everybody uses their computer for only the "working"
day

what a nonsense

tim


I leave mine running for weeks, sometimes months, and I only just
noticed that 'restart when it's quiet' setting when I was trying to
work
out why I hadn't received the anniversary update. In fact, I had
received it, but I'm guessing that it was choosing not to restart and
upgrade because I leave some applications running. Either that, or my
task scheduler is broken :-)

THank Clapton for Linux. There's a little thingy in the task bar that

I'd have to say 'Thank Akkerman' :-)

comes up with an exclamation mark. It means there are updates. Even if I
click on it and say 'yes, It's my machine, and here's a password to
prove it' it wont affect anything else, and it certainly wont *insist*
on a reboot to install the changes.

I may go with Linux soon. I used to be an MVP (before I had children,
and had more spare time), so MS sent me free product install disks all
the time. But if/when I have to start paying for MS stuff, I'll
probably jump track and learn something new.

I am sure you already know how to use a mouse to click on something.

My experience ws always windows for GUIS and Linux/unix on non graphical
kit.

Moving to graphical linux was trivial.

If you can drive XP. you can drive linux Mint.

I did try to install Mint on a old machine (in the possibly mistaken
belief that you can run Linux on any old kit). But there must have been
a problem with the graphics drivers. The GUI updates were so slow that
it was entirely unusable. Since I was just trying it out of curiosity,
I gave up. I need more time, TBH.

The more challenging thing is the newer applications that are not
windows apps, so have their won styles.

But Thunderbird and firefox and Libre Office all behave like they do on
wind0ows.

As does VLC for media.

Unless you want to play with it under the hood, you really dont need to
know it IS linux.

In article om,
lid writes
On 23/10/2016 23:12, bert wrote:

Well I switched on a W10 laptop which wasn't on this occasion within
wi-fi range and none of my apps were available.


Which apps?
All of them on the start screen.
--
bert

On 24/10/16 14:40, Dan S. MacAbre wrote:
The GUI updates were so slow that it was entirely unusable. Since I was
just trying it out of curiosity, I gave up. I need more time, TBH.

Yes. Probably some arcane hardware that never got proper Linux support.

So no hardware acceleration running on default drivers.

--
To ban Christmas, simply give turkeys the vote.

On Mon, 24 Oct 2016 13:56:36 +0100, Dan S. MacAbre wrote:

The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 24/10/16 11:50, Dan S. MacAbre wrote:
tim... wrote:

"Brian Gaff" wrote in message
...
If you look carefully at windows 10 settings you will see that you
can set so called quiet times for updates.

Which can't be more than 12 hours (or was it 8?).

what about people who don't want to be disturbed for the whole of the
waking day. Not everybody uses their computer for only the "working"
day

what a nonsense

tim


I leave mine running for weeks, sometimes months, and I only just
noticed that 'restart when it's quiet' setting when I was trying to
work out why I hadn't received the anniversary update. In fact, I had
received it, but I'm guessing that it was choosing not to restart and
upgrade because I leave some applications running. Either that, or my
task scheduler is broken :-)

THank Clapton for Linux. There's a little thingy in the task bar that

I'd have to say 'Thank Akkerman' :-)

Looks like TNP is a Viv Stanshall fan (a misquote from the "Sir Henry At
Rawlinson End" album). :-)

--
Johnny B Good

On 24/10/16 15:23, Johnny B Good wrote:
On Mon, 24 Oct 2016 13:56:36 +0100, Dan S. MacAbre wrote:

The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 24/10/16 11:50, Dan S. MacAbre wrote:
tim... wrote:

"Brian Gaff" wrote in message
...
If you look carefully at windows 10 settings you will see that you
can set so called quiet times for updates.

Which can't be more than 12 hours (or was it 8?).

what about people who don't want to be disturbed for the whole of the
waking day. Not everybody uses their computer for only the "working"
day

what a nonsense

tim


I leave mine running for weeks, sometimes months, and I only just
noticed that 'restart when it's quiet' setting when I was trying to
work out why I hadn't received the anniversary update. In fact, I had
received it, but I'm guessing that it was choosing not to restart and
upgrade because I leave some applications running. Either that, or my
task scheduler is broken :-)

THank Clapton for Linux. There's a little thingy in the task bar that

I'd have to say 'Thank Akkerman' :-)

Looks like TNP is a Viv Stanshall fan (a misquote from the "Sir Henry At
Rawlinson End" album). :-)


Oh dear.

Did you really think that that was the origin?

I guess you weren't hanging out in Londo9n in the late 60s.

'Clapton is God' vied for 'Empire Loyalists say "Stop coloured
immigration"' as the graffiti of choice.

Stanshall's reference is meaningless to anyone who wasn't there at that
time.

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=cl...w=1560&bih=825



--
Truth welcomes investigation because truth knows investigation will lead
to converts. It is deception that uses all the other techniques.

The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 24/10/16 14:40, Dan S. MacAbre wrote:
The GUI updates were so slow that it was entirely unusable. Since I was
just trying it out of curiosity, I gave up. I need more time, TBH.

Yes. Probably some arcane hardware that never got proper Linux support.

So no hardware acceleration running on default drivers.


An oldish Radeon AGP card, ISTR.

On 24/10/16 16:09, Dan S. MacAbre wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 24/10/16 14:40, Dan S. MacAbre wrote:
The GUI updates were so slow that it was entirely unusable. Since I was
just trying it out of curiosity, I gave up. I need more time, TBH.

Yes. Probably some arcane hardware that never got proper Linux support.

So no hardware acceleration running on default drivers.


An oldish Radeon AGP card, ISTR.

yeah. Never the best support in Linux.

https://help.ubuntu.com/community/RadeonDriver

is a reasonable summary of the position.

If I am not using 'intel onboard' graphics I tend to buy Nvidia instead

These 'just work' with nvidia drivers.


--
A lie can travel halfway around the world while the truth is putting on
its shoes.

On Mon, 24 Oct 2016 13:56:36 +0100, "Dan S. MacAbre"
wrote:
snip

I may go with Linux soon.

Or not (from what you say later). ;-)

I used to be an MVP (before I had children,
and had more spare time), so MS sent me free product install disks all
the time.

Same here when I was a MCT (not that I used much of it as I was also a
CNI and had a Netware 3.12 Server at home with Thin Ethernet, 4M Token
Ring and ArcNet g).

But if/when I have to start paying for MS stuff,

Who does that (versus getting Windows 'free' with your new PC or cheap
with new PC hardware)?

I'll
probably jump track and learn something new.

No reason why you couldn't be finding out IF it could be a viable
option for you alongside running Windows (or OSX etc), and it could
well / easily be, if your needs happen to fit what is often a very
limited subset of what you (if an ordinary user) can do with / on
Windows.

What I mean by that is *if* all your hardware works under Linux
(remembering much of it will only have been *officially* supported by
the manufacturers under Windows and possibly also OSX) and you can get
all the programs, or equivalent programs as you *need* under Linux.

Like ... I use Forte Agent and there is a 'Linux Clone' called Pan
that is a pretty good clone, but it's not the same. Whilst I sometimes
find it useable it's often *very* slow and for reasons I've yet to be
able to work out. Agent has always been lightening fast on any (old)
PC I've tried it on.

The likes of Thunderbird, Firefox or OO / Libre Office and they work
equally well across all 3 desktop OS platforms ... whilst you have
Gimp under Linux it's no Photoshop (I'm told).

And then you (or the Mrs / one of the kids) wants to rip some CD's and
put them on their iPad or worse (for Linux), access the iTunes Music
Store and only want to use iTunes you are back to Windows / OSX.

And then there are all the 'Windows only' games and car diagnostic
apps (should you want to use either etc).

If however you are lucky in that you needs match the range of (good)
apps available on Linux (and there are some very good ones) or you
just use your PC as many Linux geeks do, and just as a web terminal,
you could be very happy. ;-)

It's quite funny for the 3 or so people I've introduced to Linux and
who are still using it as their primary desktop OS, how many have
windows programs they have downloaded (because they wanted them) and
tried to install and tell me that they 'didn't work'. No sh1t
Sherlock. ;-)

And re your 'learning' thing ... after being a self taught Windows
user-admin (and to a lesser degree, same with Apple OS / OSX) and
*not* coming from a Mainframe background ... just how 'different /
difficult' dealing with Linux issues can be. And I have loads of
(friendly / helpful / ordinary) people I could turn to to resolve
Windows issues and similar (to a lesser degree, OSX) and even
considering I'm the go-to guy for many re anything technical
(especially PC related), I don't know of a single person ITRW I could
turn to for *real* Linux help (as in 'fix it for me and make it work
fully / properly and I'll buy you a beer').

Some (often without a wife, girlfriend, kids or 'life' as we would
know it g) actually 'love' spending disproportionate amounts of time
pouring over 'Man pages', text / help files (that often assume the
reader is already fairly familiar with Linux and the CLI) and rising
to what they see as the challenge of tweaking and programming and
re-compiling stuff to make it do what most of us would only bother
with if it just required us to click on 'Setup.exe'.

And that's what I'm talking about ... learning (when that isn't the
goal, like how many people *want* to go though the process of learning
to drive a car over just wanting to drive a car ...) how to do
something in a completely different way and nearly not being able to
use any skills built up from installing and maintaining Windows or
even OSX (for most people) because so much real work done under the
hood of Linux is done at an unintuitive terminal and not an 'easy to
explore' GUI).

That said, I try to leave a Linux boot DVD everywhere I have to
support a PC of some sort (and keep a couple in the car) as it is very
handy to be able to boot an OS up from a DVD *and* (more often than
not these days) be able to get on the Internet etc.

And most of the above (the getting stuff to work under Linux bit) is
echoed by Linus himself:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KFKxlYNfT_o

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZPUk1yNVeEI

Cheers, T i m

On Mon, 24 Oct 2016 16:09:56 +0100, "Dan S. MacAbre"
wrote:

The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 24/10/16 14:40, Dan S. MacAbre wrote:
The GUI updates were so slow that it was entirely unusable. Since I was
just trying it out of curiosity, I gave up. I need more time, TBH.

Yes. Probably some arcane hardware that never got proper Linux support.

So no hardware acceleration running on default drivers.


An oldish Radeon AGP card, ISTR.

Again, you will probably get different advice (from the Linux fanboys)
based on the spirit of your comment. So, if you had said:

I tried Mint 18 on an 'old PC running A Radeon AGP card and it ran
fine' you would be told just how good the legacy support for old
hardware Linux is.

If you had said 'I tried Mint 18 on an old PC running A Radeon AGP
card and it ran really slowly' you would be berated for being stupid
enough to even try to run Linux on that age of hardware. ;-(

I have found that 'most people' who (happen to in most cases) run
Windows dgaf about any OS but those who have 'made the move' ...
'turned away from the darkside' or 'turned away from Windoze' (or some
other childish term) are the fanatics. Just in the same way they say
ex-smokers are the worst re anti-smoking?

Cheers, T i m

T i m wrote:
On Mon, 24 Oct 2016 13:56:36 +0100, "Dan S. MacAbre"
wrote:
snip

I may go with Linux soon.

Or not (from what you say later). ;-)

I used to be an MVP (before I had children,
and had more spare time), so MS sent me free product install disks all
the time.

Same here when I was a MCT (not that I used much of it as I was also a
CNI and had a Netware 3.12 Server at home with Thin Ethernet, 4M Token
Ring and ArcNet g).

My first server at home and at work was Netware. Good times. I used
thin ethernet at home, so that I wouldn't have to buy a hub. I set it
up at home because it was the only way I could think of getting the
experience to get my first computing job, and it worked!

But if/when I have to start paying for MS stuff,

Who does that (versus getting Windows 'free' with your new PC or cheap
with new PC hardware)?

Dunno - it's a long time since I had to pay for anything other than
games for our little boy. I'm not sure how long Win10 is going to be
free for.

I'll
probably jump track and learn something new.

No reason why you couldn't be finding out IF it could be a viable
option for you alongside running Windows (or OSX etc), and it could
well / easily be, if your needs happen to fit what is often a very
limited subset of what you (if an ordinary user) can do with / on
Windows.

What I mean by that is *if* all your hardware works under Linux
(remembering much of it will only have been *officially* supported by
the manufacturers under Windows and possibly also OSX) and you can get
all the programs, or equivalent programs as you *need* under Linux.

Like ... I use Forte Agent and there is a 'Linux Clone' called Pan
that is a pretty good clone, but it's not the same. Whilst I sometimes
find it useable it's often *very* slow and for reasons I've yet to be
able to work out. Agent has always been lightening fast on any (old)
PC I've tried it on.

The likes of Thunderbird, Firefox or OO / Libre Office and they work
equally well across all 3 desktop OS platforms ... whilst you have
Gimp under Linux it's no Photoshop (I'm told).

And then you (or the Mrs / one of the kids) wants to rip some CD's and
put them on their iPad or worse (for Linux), access the iTunes Music
Store and only want to use iTunes you are back to Windows / OSX.

And then there are all the 'Windows only' games and car diagnostic
apps (should you want to use either etc).

If however you are lucky in that you needs match the range of (good)
apps available on Linux (and there are some very good ones) or you
just use your PC as many Linux geeks do, and just as a web terminal,
you could be very happy. ;-)

I don't actually have many computing needs, but I'm a developer of
products in the corporate MS-based world. So that dictates the sort of
stuff I need to keep running.

We've spent loads of money on Steam, etc. games for the lad. I'd be
very happy indeed if they were ever to run on Linux.

It's quite funny for the 3 or so people I've introduced to Linux and
who are still using it as their primary desktop OS, how many have
windows programs they have downloaded (because they wanted them) and
tried to install and tell me that they 'didn't work'. No sh1t
Sherlock. ;-)

And re your 'learning' thing ... after being a self taught Windows
user-admin (and to a lesser degree, same with Apple OS / OSX) and
*not* coming from a Mainframe background ... just how 'different /
difficult' dealing with Linux issues can be. And I have loads of
(friendly / helpful / ordinary) people I could turn to to resolve
Windows issues and similar (to a lesser degree, OSX) and even
considering I'm the go-to guy for many re anything technical
(especially PC related), I don't know of a single person ITRW I could
turn to for *real* Linux help (as in 'fix it for me and make it work
fully / properly and I'll buy you a beer').

MS gave me the MVP award (very much to my surprise) because I was a part
of that 'fluffy and helpful' MS world. I got to know loads of really
nice people. But like I say, I don't have time now, and it's only given
to you on a year-by-year basis.

I once needed some help setting up a firewall with ipfilter, and was
surprised at the fairly angry RTFM! responses.

Some (often without a wife, girlfriend, kids or 'life' as we would
know it g) actually 'love' spending disproportionate amounts of time
pouring over 'Man pages', text / help files (that often assume the
reader is already fairly familiar with Linux and the CLI) and rising
to what they see as the challenge of tweaking and programming and
re-compiling stuff to make it do what most of us would only bother
with if it just required us to click on 'Setup.exe'.

And that's what I'm talking about ... learning (when that isn't the
goal, like how many people *want* to go though the process of learning
to drive a car over just wanting to drive a car ...) how to do
something in a completely different way and nearly not being able to
use any skills built up from installing and maintaining Windows or
even OSX (for most people) because so much real work done under the
hood of Linux is done at an unintuitive terminal and not an 'easy to
explore' GUI).

That said, I try to leave a Linux boot DVD everywhere I have to
support a PC of some sort (and keep a couple in the car) as it is very
handy to be able to boot an OS up from a DVD *and* (more often than
not these days) be able to get on the Internet etc.

Actually, as a developer I think what I need to start learning now is
Android.

And most of the above (the getting stuff to work under Linux bit) is
echoed by Linus himself:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KFKxlYNfT_o

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZPUk1yNVeEI

Cheers, T i m


I'll give the videos a watch when I get home.

On 23/10/2016 10:33, Broadback wrote:
Twice in the last 24 hours my computer has rebooted and spent a long
time updating Windows 10. Why 2 large updates in such a short period?

One of the things I often do around the time of major updates is run the
Disk Clean-up tool to get rid some of the excess dross. Especially
important on machines with relatively small SSD drives such as 103 GB.

What I had failed to understand was that the Disk Clean-up tool embeds
magic. Nor had I appreciated quite how large Windows updates had become.
:-)

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...0How%20Big.png

--
Rod

On Mon, 24 Oct 2016 17:52:16 +0100, "Dan S. MacAbre"
wrote:

snip

But if/when I have to start paying for MS stuff,

Who does that (versus getting Windows 'free' with your new PC or cheap
with new PC hardware)?

Dunno - it's a long time since I had to pay for anything other than
games for our little boy. I'm not sure how long Win10 is going to be
free for.

With OSX being free now along with Android I can't see Windows as a
basic desktop OS solution ever going to be a paid for thing (well, not
for a long time anyway by which time *everything* will be on a paid
for basis).

snip

If however you are lucky in that you needs match the range of (good)
apps available on Linux (and there are some very good ones) or you
just use your PC as many Linux geeks do, and just as a web terminal,
you could be very happy. ;-)

I don't actually have many computing needs, but I'm a developer of
products in the corporate MS-based world. So that dictates the sort of
stuff I need to keep running.

Quite.

We've spent loads of money on Steam, etc. games for the lad. I'd be
very happy indeed if they were ever to run on Linux.

I thought it *was* running on Linux (even if the Steam Box never took
off)?

It's quite funny for the 3 or so people I've introduced to Linux and
who are still using it as their primary desktop OS, how many have
windows programs they have downloaded (because they wanted them) and
tried to install and tell me that they 'didn't work'. No sh1t
Sherlock. ;-)

And re your 'learning' thing ... after being a self taught Windows
user-admin (and to a lesser degree, same with Apple OS / OSX) and
*not* coming from a Mainframe background ... just how 'different /
difficult' dealing with Linux issues can be. And I have loads of
(friendly / helpful / ordinary) people I could turn to to resolve
Windows issues and similar (to a lesser degree, OSX) and even
considering I'm the go-to guy for many re anything technical
(especially PC related), I don't know of a single person ITRW I could
turn to for *real* Linux help (as in 'fix it for me and make it work
fully / properly and I'll buy you a beer').

MS gave me the MVP award (very much to my surprise) because I was a part
of that 'fluffy and helpful' MS world. I got to know loads of really
nice people.

I think they were just 'ordinary / everyday people'. It's those who
specifically choose a different path who are (obviously) the
'different' ones. ;-)

But like I say, I don't have time now, and it's only given
to you on a year-by-year basis.

Ok.

I once needed some help setting up a firewall with ipfilter, and was
surprised at the fairly angry RTFM! responses.

Ah, again, you asked a 'geeky' question so are bound to arouse the
geeks with their 'geeky ways'. ;-(

snip

That said, I try to leave a Linux boot DVD everywhere I have to
support a PC of some sort (and keep a couple in the car) as it is very
handy to be able to boot an OS up from a DVD *and* (more often than
not these days) be able to get on the Internet etc.

Actually, as a developer I think what I need to start learning now is
Android.

If you want to earn some money, that or iOS, yes.

And most of the above (the getting stuff to work under Linux bit) is
echoed by Linus himself:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KFKxlYNfT_o

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZPUk1yNVeEI



I'll give the videos a watch when I get home.

Again, they are nothing more than the man himself admitting what most
non geeks come up against when they first come across Linux and then
it's down to a range of things what you do next. Most I have offered
Linux to (FOC and all set up and going) generally don't see the point
.... of running something that often doesn't seem to do the same range
of things Windows does and no one they know has ever seen it before
and doesn't know how to fix it (/make it do stuff) either. If you are
looking for a hobby, to *learn* a new OS or are looking for a specific
or want to create your own solution then Linux could be a good
solution.

I have rarely bought any MS products (outside of the OS's etc) and
have definitely spent more money on Non MS solutions over the years.
However I have tried on several occasions to use Linux (like on my
home server, a PVR and CCTV solutions) and in every case I found the
hurdles insurmountable and then, often after wasting lots of time and
getting very frustrated with Linux, paying for a 'commercial'
solution that 'just worked' (like WHS V1 and then 2011).

But then I've never been a programmer and I really believe you have to
have that sort of skill / experience / mindset / patience to be
comfortable under the hood of Linux (and a good typist to boot). ;-)

Cheers, T i m

On 24/10/2016 13:19, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
THank Clapton for Linux. There's a little thingy in the task bar that
comes up with an exclamation mark. It means there are updates. Even if I
click on it and say 'yes, It's my machine, and here's a password to
prove it' it wont affect anything else, and it certainly wont *insist*
on a reboot to install the changes.

No, it won't insist on a reboot. But quite a few won't be running until
you do. This week's example being Dirty CoW.

https://dirtycow.ninja/

And according to this
https://git.kernel.org/cgit/linux/kernel/git/torvalds/linux.git/commit/?id=19be0eaffa3ac7d8eb6784ad9bdbc7d67ed8e619

Linus found it 11 years ago, and failed to fix it...

Andy

En el artículo , Bill
escribió:

Have there been any recent changes to the way W7 updates operate

Yes. Instead of being offered individual updates which you can research
and choose not to install if you wish, it's now offered as a monolithic
update with all the fixes rolled up into one package.

After the Win10 nagging, GWX fiasco and repeated attempts to install
Win10-style spying and telemetry, I switched Windows Update off for
Win7. Microsoft can no longer be trusted, if indeed they ever could.

--
(\_/)
(='.'=) systemd: the Linux version of Windows 10
(")_(")

In message , T i m
writes
I have rarely bought any MS products (outside of the OS's etc) and have
definitely spent more money on Non MS solutions over the years. However
I have tried on several occasions to use Linux (like on my home server,
a PVR and CCTV solutions) and in every case I found the hurdles
insurmountable and then, often after wasting lots of time and getting
very frustrated with Linux, paying for a 'commercial' solution that
'just worked' (like WHS V1 and then 2011).

I find that interesting because I ran Windows Home Server as a backup
server here on the suggestion of my son. He then had a disk crash on his
system and had a major job recovering the data in readable format (don't
know any details beyond that).
Soon after that I had a problem and decided to retreat by installing
CentOS and backing up to it in formats that I knew I could read on any
machine here. Suggestions from Mike Tomlinson here, and a friend in the
USA were really helpful in getting it going.
Then the power supply on my HP server died and while I was doing the
metal bodging to get a standard psu to fit, I decided I'd better have a
second backup server, so put one together and discovered that Centos7
was very different from Centos6. I had to be helped again.

I just don't know about any of this these days.

CentOS 6 has been reliable, CentOS 7 less so, but maybe that's because I
haven't bothered to understand the differences. The problem remains that
there are Windows programs that don't have equivalents in Linux and, for
example, audio still seems to be a mishmash of mediocre programs even
when compared with ancient Windows audio (which itself isn't that
brilliant). (Maybe it's time to give Harrison Mixbus another go).

On the other hand it just isn't acceptable to have Wndows7 programs
switching from "Don't update" to "Automatic" or W10 pushing in different
drivers under the radar. I caught it breaking my touchscreen drivers
because it was an obvious thing to have stopped working, but how do I
know what other obscure drivers might have changed without being
discovered until some critical moment.

The W7 rolled up drivers seem to still come with some hints about what
is being addressed, but W10's updates as far as I can see are still done
blind.

End of rant. Sorry.
--
Bill

On Mon, 24 Oct 2016 23:50:28 +0100, Bill wrote:

In message , T i m
writes
I have rarely bought any MS products (outside of the OS's etc) and have
definitely spent more money on Non MS solutions over the years. However
I have tried on several occasions to use Linux (like on my home server,
a PVR and CCTV solutions) and in every case I found the hurdles
insurmountable and then, often after wasting lots of time and getting
very frustrated with Linux, paying for a 'commercial' solution that
'just worked' (like WHS V1 and then 2011).

I find that interesting because I ran Windows Home Server as a backup
server here on the suggestion of my son. He then had a disk crash on his
system and had a major job recovering the data in readable format (don't
know any details beyond that).

I have read of that but it's not what I have observed so far myself.

Soon after that I had a problem and decided to retreat by installing
CentOS and backing up to it in formats that I knew I could read on any
machine here. Suggestions from Mike Tomlinson here, and a friend in the
USA were really helpful in getting it going.
Then the power supply on my HP server died and while I was doing the
metal bodging to get a standard psu to fit, I decided I'd better have a
second backup server, so put one together and discovered that Centos7
was very different from Centos6. I had to be helped again.

Ok.

I just don't know about any of this these days.

I'm nearly in the same position as I built my V1 WHS checks 2069
days ago and because I haven't really touched it since, have forgotten
what I did to build (install) it. And I use it every day (fileserver)
and it backs up all the PC's here every day and only draws about 40W
and shuts down when not in use ... ;-)

CentOS 6 has been reliable, CentOS 7 less so, but maybe that's because I
haven't bothered to understand the differences. The problem remains that
there are Windows programs that don't have equivalents in Linux and, for
example, audio still seems to be a mishmash of mediocre programs even
when compared with ancient Windows audio (which itself isn't that
brilliant).

Quite. A mate is still using Cardfile (from W3.1) every day for his
customer database because it still works (on W7). ;-)

(Maybe it's time to give Harrison Mixbus another go).

Again, I'm guessing not because you *want to* exactly?

On the other hand it just isn't acceptable to have Wndows7 programs
switching from "Don't update" to "Automatic" or W10 pushing in different
drivers under the radar.

Whilst as a fellow admin-user I understand and agree with you ... as a
user admin (ex professional, currently friends and family) I know they
simply won't do any of them if they aren't done for them. This is
generally only obvious on the odd Linux system I am party to (where
the updates have never been done since the last time I was there). ;-(

I caught it breaking my touchscreen drivers
because it was an obvious thing to have stopped working, but how do I
know what other obscure drivers might have changed without being
discovered until some critical moment.

Pass, I've never looked or been interested to look TBH (in nearly 40
years supporting Windows). OOI I've just (tonight) installed W10 as a
fresh install (using a W7 COA) and it went straight on. Mint 18 needed
to be handheld to deal with the Broadcom WiFi drivers (and luckily I
stumbled on a web page that actually helped).

The W7 rolled up drivers seem to still come with some hints about what
is being addressed, but W10's updates as far as I can see are still done
blind.

Just as 99.99% of the userbase want them. ;-)

End of rant. Sorry.

Thanks for sharing with the group. ;-)

Cheers, T i m

On Mon, 24 Oct 2016 23:17:51 +0100, Mike Tomlinson wrote:

En el artÃ*culo , Bill
escribió:

Have there been any recent changes to the way W7 updates operate

Yes. Instead of being offered individual updates which you can research
and choose not to install if you wish, it's now offered as a monolithic
update with all the fixes rolled up into one package.

After the Win10 nagging, GWX fiasco and repeated attempts to install
Win10-style spying and telemetry, I switched Windows Update off for
Win7. Microsoft can no longer be trusted, if indeed they ever could.

That much was obvious with the advent of winXP (but at least you still
had some control over its behaviour without having to jump through *too*
many hoops).

--
Johnny B Good

En el artículo , Dan S. MacAbre
escribió:

On 24/10/16 14:40, Dan S. MacAbre wrote:
The GUI updates were so slow that it was entirely unusable.

An oldish Radeon AGP card, ISTR.

Mint is released in three versions. The most commonly used one has the
Cinnamon desktop, which is heavily reliant on the video card will run
like treacle on that one.

The MATE version is much less graphics-intensive and will likely run
fine.

I installed Mint MATE on an older HP Microserver (1.3GHz AMD Neo cpu,
4GB ram, basic ATi onboard video) and it was perfectly usable. Using a
cheapy 27 quid 128GB SSD from fleabay made a big difference.

--
(\_/)
(='.'=) systemd: the Linux version of Windows 10
(")_(")

Johnny B Good posted
On Mon, 24 Oct 2016 23:17:51 +0100, Mike Tomlinson wrote:

En el artículo , Bill
escribió:

Have there been any recent changes to the way W7 updates operate

Yes. Instead of being offered individual updates which you can research
and choose not to install if you wish, it's now offered as a monolithic
update with all the fixes rolled up into one package.

After the Win10 nagging, GWX fiasco and repeated attempts to install
Win10-style spying and telemetry, I switched Windows Update off for
Win7. Microsoft can no longer be trusted, if indeed they ever could.

That much was obvious with the advent of winXP (but at least you still
had some control over its behaviour without having to jump through *too*
many hoops).


What was the danger with XP? (which I still use, though with updates
turned off, not that there are any now).
--
Jack

On 24/10/2016 21:39, Vir Campestris wrote:
On 24/10/2016 13:19, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
THank Clapton for Linux. There's a little thingy in the task bar that
comes up with an exclamation mark. It means there are updates. Even if I
click on it and say 'yes, It's my machine, and here's a password to
prove it' it wont affect anything else, and it certainly wont *insist*
on a reboot to install the changes.

No, it won't insist on a reboot. But quite a few won't be running until
you do. This week's example being Dirty CoW.

Well it fine to fix a bug and then leave a machine running for months
before it actually gets loaded into memory. It must be as linux does that.
I would be surprised if it even tells the user it needs to be rebooted
as it expects the users to know these things.


https://dirtycow.ninja/

And according to this
https://git.kernel.org/cgit/linux/kernel/git/torvalds/linux.git/commit/?id=19be0eaffa3ac7d8eb6784ad9bdbc7d67ed8e619


Linus found it 11 years ago, and failed to fix it...

Andy

You would have thought that with it being open source and having all
those people examining the code the bug would have been found and fixed
again within hours not years.
Just who reviews the changes made to the code and why didn't they spot
that it had been cocked up?
I expect there are more hackers reviewing the code than developers as
there is a financial incentive for the hacker to find an exploit.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
tim... wrote:
Just the same has been happening with Win7.

no it's not

with Win 7 you can accept each new update manually (it's awkward to
do,
but not impossible)

With Win 10 you either set your PC in a mode that no downloads are
installed,

You can set Win7 not to download any upgrades too.

or get all the "new" ones all at once

As will Win7 if you turn it on again.

No

you can get it to display a box where you can select which downloads you
want and which you don't

or did last time I tried

Mine has a 'Never check for updates (not recommended)' option. And 'Check
for updates but let me choose whether to download and install them'
And some more options. Basically covers pretty well all the needed
options.

Which option doesn't it give you'd like?

Win 7 gives me the option that I want ('Check for updates but let me choose
whether to download and install them')

Win 10 gives me no options - it only allows auto update. All you can do to
avoid that is tell it that your connection is metered, but you have to
remember to do that every time you connect to something new. Otherwise that
will start the auto update process, which, as I already said will install
everything, not just the ones that you choose. Thus there is no possibly to
have the ones that you "want" and not the rest.

tim

On 25/10/16 09:39, dennis@home wrote:
On 24/10/2016 21:39, Vir Campestris wrote:
On 24/10/2016 13:19, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
THank Clapton for Linux. There's a little thingy in the task bar that
comes up with an exclamation mark. It means there are updates. Even if I
click on it and say 'yes, It's my machine, and here's a password to
prove it' it wont affect anything else, and it certainly wont *insist*
on a reboot to install the changes.

No, it won't insist on a reboot. But quite a few won't be running until
you do. This week's example being Dirty CoW.

Well it fine to fix a bug and then leave a machine running for months
before it actually gets loaded into memory. It must be as linux does that.
I would be surprised if it even tells the user it needs to be rebooted
as it expects the users to know these things.


https://dirtycow.ninja/

And according to this
https://git.kernel.org/cgit/linux/kernel/git/torvalds/linux.git/commit/?id=19be0eaffa3ac7d8eb6784ad9bdbc7d67ed8e619



Linus found it 11 years ago, and failed to fix it...

Andy

You would have thought that with it being open source and having all
those people examining the code the bug would have been found and fixed
again within hours not years.

Great website on currently open vulnerability if you want some point
scoring fodder.

https://www.cvedetails.com/vendor/26/Microsoft.html
https://www.cvedetails.com/vendor/23/Debian.html

You would have thought that Microsoft being a company trusted with the
computing activities of so many users worldwide, would not do exactly
the stupid greedy and senseless things that make users so desire to
actually turn OFF their patch update service?

IMO, It's nuts

--
Adrian C

On 25/10/2016 13:38, Adrian Caspersz wrote:
On 25/10/16 09:39, dennis@home wrote:
On 24/10/2016 21:39, Vir Campestris wrote:
On 24/10/2016 13:19, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
THank Clapton for Linux. There's a little thingy in the task bar that
comes up with an exclamation mark. It means there are updates. Even
if I
click on it and say 'yes, It's my machine, and here's a password to
prove it' it wont affect anything else, and it certainly wont *insist*
on a reboot to install the changes.

No, it won't insist on a reboot. But quite a few won't be running until
you do. This week's example being Dirty CoW.

Well it fine to fix a bug and then leave a machine running for months
before it actually gets loaded into memory. It must be as linux does
that.
I would be surprised if it even tells the user it needs to be rebooted
as it expects the users to know these things.


https://dirtycow.ninja/

And according to this
https://git.kernel.org/cgit/linux/kernel/git/torvalds/linux.git/commit/?id=19be0eaffa3ac7d8eb6784ad9bdbc7d67ed8e619




Linus found it 11 years ago, and failed to fix it...

Andy

You would have thought that with it being open source and having all
those people examining the code the bug would have been found and fixed
again within hours not years.

Great website on currently open vulnerability if you want some point
scoring fodder.

I don't need any points thanks.
I just don't like the way some idiots go around telling the uninformed
that their preferred OS is more secure than whatever the others are
using. All OSes need looking after and some need more knowledge than the
average user has to look after them.


https://www.cvedetails.com/vendor/26/Microsoft.html
https://www.cvedetails.com/vendor/23/Debian.html

You would have thought that Microsoft being a company trusted with the
computing activities of so many users worldwide, would not do exactly
the stupid greedy and senseless things that make users so desire to
actually turn OFF their patch update service?

IMO, It's nuts


Well you only have to look at the big drop in vulnerabilities since
windows 10 went live to know who the nuts are and wonder why they really
don't want to upgrade from XP/win7 (XP I can understand as it cost money).

AFAICS debian had more vulnerabilities since windows 10 went live than
windows 10 did.

On Tue, 25 Oct 2016 13:38:56 +0100, Adrian Caspersz wrote:

On 25/10/16 09:39, dennis@home wrote:
On 24/10/2016 21:39, Vir Campestris wrote:
On 24/10/2016 13:19, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
THank Clapton for Linux. There's a little thingy in the task bar that
comes up with an exclamation mark. It means there are updates. Even
if I click on it and say 'yes, It's my machine, and here's a password
to prove it' it wont affect anything else, and it certainly wont
*insist* on a reboot to install the changes.

No, it won't insist on a reboot. But quite a few won't be running
until you do. This week's example being Dirty CoW.

Well it fine to fix a bug and then leave a machine running for months
before it actually gets loaded into memory. It must be as linux does
that.
I would be surprised if it even tells the user it needs to be rebooted
as it expects the users to know these things.


https://dirtycow.ninja/

And according to this
https://git.kernel.org/cgit/linux/ke...lds/linux.git/
commit/?id=19be0eaffa3ac7d8eb6784ad9bdbc7d67ed8e619



Linus found it 11 years ago, and failed to fix it...

Andy

You would have thought that with it being open source and having all
those people examining the code the bug would have been found and fixed
again within hours not years.

Great website on currently open vulnerability if you want some point
scoring fodder.

https://www.cvedetails.com/vendor/26/Microsoft.html
https://www.cvedetails.com/vendor/23/Debian.html

You would have thought that Microsoft being a company trusted with the
computing activities of so many users worldwide, would not do exactly
the stupid greedy and senseless things that make users so desire to
actually turn OFF their patch update service?

IMO, It's nuts

The short answer to that is because they can. MSFT have got their
customers right where they want them. No more pussyfooting about. They've
removed the soft options effectively placing their customers between a
rock and a hard place.

As far as MSFT are concerned, their customers will either have to like
it and lump it or go elsewhere knowing full well that, for 99% or more of
their precious customer base, there *is* no "Elsewhere" for them to go to.

--
Johnny B Good

On 25/10/16 17:34, Johnny B Good wrote:
As far as MSFT are concerned, their customers will either have to like
it and lump it or go elsewhere knowing full well that, for 99% or more of
their precious customer base, there *is* no "Elsewhere" for them to go to.

In this sample, I think out of maybe 50 regulars, we have 2-3 linux users.

I think its a fork in the road.
There are going to be corporate customers and there are going to be home
users. The latter will go for the slabs and bling and trust themselves
to the MS cloud, but corporate users want solid stable desktop
workstations, and they aren't getting that from MS. And they can buy
linux support from Red hat. And IBM.

At some stage major apps like photoshop will get ported.

And then its a whole new ballgame


--
To ban Christmas, simply give turkeys the vote.