alan_m wrote
Tim Watts wrote

Aye - that's true of you buy solely on features.

I'll bet that 95% of the features on items like washing machines are never
used

Its unlikely that they arent ever used by someone.

so there is a potential to save money by buying a lower specified machine.

Not when you are talking about a modern computer
controlled device where allowing you to say specify
a mode that doesn’t bother to save water when you
don’t care about the water use and care about how
well the rinsing has been done to get all of the
detergent out of what is being washed. Including
that extra mode doesn’t cost anything at all with
the cost of making the machine. Same with say a
wool cycle which you never use, with a modern
computer controlled machine that doesn’t add
anything at all to the cost of the machine even
if you never use it.

But if you want it to:

1) Last;

2) Be economic to repair;

3) Not burn the house down.

(Pick any 2)

You need to do a little more research.

It may be a lot cheaper to buy something at third to half the price and
chuck it after 5/10 years than pay insurance or repair costs.

Particularly when there isnt any reliable way of checking how
often it will need to be repaired when used the way you use it.

For me: Miele for 1+3 followed by Bosch Logixx (or whatever the actually
made in Germany is badged as now).

Are Bosch washers/dryers still made in Germany?

Doesn’t really matter where they are made in most cases.
What matters repair cost wise is the design, not where its made.

Tim Watts wrote:
On 19/09/16 13:30, Graeme wrote:
In message , alan_m
writes
[1] I no longer take any notice of a recommendation from someone who
says that have a reliable service from their 20 year old machine.
What's on the market today is likely to be designed by a different
company who have bought the brand, by different designers and farmed
out to a third party far eastern manufacturers.

I long ago gave up researching TVs, white goods etc., and just buy
whatever is on special offer at Tesco, or wherever. Whatever we buy
these days seems to have far more buttons and options than we ever use,
but perhaps we're the ignorant minority.


Aye - that's true of you buy solely on features.

But if you want it to:

1) Last;

2) Be economic to repair;

3) Not burn the house down.

(Pick any 2)


You need to do a little more research.

For me: Miele for 1+3 followed by Bosch Logixx (or whatever the
actually made in Germany is badged as now).

White Knight if I don't want it to work at all!

I'd reverse that order.

Tim+ wrote:
Tim wrote:


White Knight if I don't want it to work at all!


26 years old and still going strong in this household. (A gas model
admittedly).

Tim



Electric in this household.

polygonum wrote:
On 19/09/2016 02:55, Capitol wrote:


Why condenser? I'd buy a White Knight and vent to outside. Although
ours currently vents inside without any condensation problems?

Even White Knight are singling the praises of condensers now...

And, quite simply, we don't want a gas one.

Why not a straightforward vented electric? It will take years to
recover the cost of a condenser unit.

Capitol wrote:

Tim+ wrote:

Tim Watts wrote:

White Knight if I don't want it to work at all!

26 years old and still going strong in this household. (A gas model
admittedly).

Electric in this household.

Which may tell you they were good a long time ago, but does that
translate into the same brand being good now, or even under the same
ownership?

On 20/09/2016 14:59, Capitol wrote:
polygonum wrote:
On 19/09/2016 02:55, Capitol wrote:


Why condenser? I'd buy a White Knight and vent to outside. Although
ours currently vents inside without any condensation problems?

Even White Knight are singling the praises of condensers now...

And, quite simply, we don't want a gas one.

Why not a straightforward vented electric? It will take years to
recover the cost of a condenser unit.

Not sure I agree!

Maybe if you go by the models I posted originally, which were
middle-to-upper cost (but by no means the most expensive). But on the
simplest criteria (not Hotpoint!), we could choose:

Indesit IDV75 Vented Tumble Dryer, 7kg Load, B Energy Rating, White at
£157.00 using 3.98 kWh per cycle

Beko DHY7340W Heat Pump Condenser Tumble Dryer, 7kg Load, A++ Energy
Rating, White at £309.00 using 1.68kWh/cycle

The formatting will get trashed, I'm sure, but the data below shows
costs of these two models over considerable numbers of cycles. All sorts
of assumptions are made, of course.

Cost Per Cost of Cost over base model
cycle cycle
157.00 3.98 0.56 0.00
309.00 1.68 0.24 152.00

Cycles & cost (upper - cheap m/c, lower expensive m/c)
160 320 480 640 800
246.152 335.304 424.456 513.608 602.76
346.632 384.264 421.896 459.528 497.16

So after three years there is nothing in it, and every additional year
has reduced cost compared against vented.

--
Rod

On 20/09/2016 04:28, Rod Speed wrote:


Not when you are talking about a modern computer
controlled device where allowing you to say specify
a mode that doesn’t bother to save water when you
don’t care about the water use and care about how
well the rinsing has been done to get all of the
detergent out of what is being washed. Including
that extra mode doesn’t cost anything at all with
the cost of making the machine. Same with say a
wool cycle which you never use, with a modern
computer controlled machine that doesn’t add
anything at all to the cost of the machine even
if you never use it.

It may not add anything to the cost of manufacture but modern sales
techniques require three models, a budget, a mid-range and a luxury
model. There are enough people out there who will buy just because its
expensive but the manufacturer cannot just rely on these customers and
has to cater for the lower end of the market All models will be the
same/similar except for the functionality enabled on the front panel.

It's also the same with equipment that is just re-badged. Identical
equipment can be badged with different brands and sold at vastly
different prices. This is to catch those who stick with brand loyalty
little realising the the well regarded company of the past has gone bust
and the brand name has been sold on (many times) as the only thing of
value.

Both of these sales techniques have been going on for decades and
continue because they work.

--
mailto: news {at} admac {dot] myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

On 20/09/2016 20:37, alan_m wrote:
Both of these sales techniques have been going on for decades and
continue because they work.

While we may know the techniques exist, and that they work, it isn't
always so easy to identify precisely what features have been tweaked
away that we might actually care about.

--
Rod

On 20/09/2016 20:54, polygonum wrote:
On 20/09/2016 20:37, alan_m wrote:
Both of these sales techniques have been going on for decades and
continue because they work.

While we may know the techniques exist, and that they work, it isn't
always so easy to identify precisely what features have been tweaked
away that we might actually care about.


Unless you are a first time purchaser/user of white goods you should
have some idea of what is essential and what features are a waste of
time. The dividing line between the two may not be the same for
everyone and depends on lifestyle and family circumstances.

--
mailto: news {at} admac {dot] myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

On 20/09/2016 21:16, alan_m wrote:
On 20/09/2016 20:54, polygonum wrote:
On 20/09/2016 20:37, alan_m wrote:
Both of these sales techniques have been going on for decades and
continue because they work.

While we may know the techniques exist, and that they work, it isn't
always so easy to identify precisely what features have been tweaked
away that we might actually care about.


Unless you are a first time purchaser/user of white goods you should
have some idea of what is essential and what features are a waste of
time. The dividing line between the two may not be the same for
everyone and depends on lifestyle and family circumstances.

Some idea - yes. And indeed, we may each have our own collection of
things we need/want. There are features we don't even really notice
until we don't have them. For example, brightness adjustment of displays
and LED indicators. I really don't like super-bright displays!

--
Rod

On 20/09/2016 21:30, polygonum wrote:

For example, brightness adjustment of displays
and LED indicators. I really don't like super-bright displays!


I have 'painted' over bright leds with a permanent marker pen which dims
the output seen by the viewer. It's cheaper than buying a sheet of
LightDims

http://www.lightdims.com/





--
mailto: news {at} admac {dot] myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

alan_m wrote
Rod Speed wrote

Not when you are talking about a modern computer
controlled device where allowing you to say specify
a mode that doesn’t bother to save water when you
don’t care about the water use and care about how
well the rinsing has been done to get all of the
detergent out of what is being washed. Including
that extra mode doesn’t cost anything at all with the cost of making the
machine. Same with say a wool cycle which you never use, with a modern
computer controlled machine that doesn’t add anything at all to the cost
of the machine even if you never use it.

It may not add anything to the cost of manufacture but modern sales
techniques require three models, a budget, a mid-range and a luxury model.

That isnt how Miele does it.

There are enough people out there who will buy just because its expensive
but the manufacturer cannot just rely on these customers and has to cater
for the lower end of the market

Miele doesn’t.

All models will be the same/similar except for the functionality enabled
on the front panel.

Bet you can't list even a single example of that.

It's also the same with equipment that is just re-badged. Identical
equipment can be badged with different brands

Yes.

and sold at vastly different prices.

Nope, not sold for both the low end and high end prices.

This is to catch those who stick with brand loyalty little realising the
the well regarded company of the past has gone bust and the brand name has
been sold on (many times) as the only thing of value.

Yes, but they arent in fact identical to the Miele products
with a different brand on them and ultra low prices.

Both of these sales techniques have been going on for decades

Badge engineering, sure, but not with identical products
to the Miele products, just with a chinese brand on them.

and continue because they work.

It isnt done the way you claim.

alan_m wrote
polygonum wrote
alan_m wrote

Both of these sales techniques have been going on for decades and
continue because they work.

While we may know the techniques exist, and that they work, it isn't
always so easy to identify precisely what features have been tweaked away
that we might actually care about.

Unless you are a first time purchaser/user of white goods you should have
some idea of what is essential and what features are a waste of time.

But you wont necessarily be able to work out what would
be very useful new feature wise until you get one with that
feature and try it to see if it makes things more convenient.

The dividing line between the two may not be the same for everyone and
depends on lifestyle and family circumstances.

And that can change significantly over time too.

On 20/09/2016 23:13, Rod Speed wrote:

There are enough people out there who will buy just because its
expensive but the manufacturer cannot just rely on these customers and
has to cater for the lower end of the market

Miele doesn’t.


Miele only sell one high quality machine?

A 5 second google search suggests that their machines range in price
between expensive and 3x expensive.

The high price one is aimed at those who will buy just because it's a
lot of money

The lower price one is aimed at those who perceive that the machine is
quality but cannot afford the top price.

It's the same marketing trick. As you stated there is no difference in
the cost to add lots of bells and whistles.

And then there is the marking hype - you get what you pay for.

The Stella Artois “Reassuringly Expensive” campaign tried to persuade UK
drinkers that high prices meant quality. Roll on a few years and it
earned the nickname of the 'wife beater' as it became the favourite
tipple of the UK hooligan binge drinker when sold in supermarkets
cheaper than the cheapest bottled water!




--
mailto: news {at} admac {dot] myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

alan_m wrote
Rod Speed wrote

There are enough people out there who will buy just because its
expensive but the manufacturer cannot just rely on these customers and
has to cater for the lower end of the market

Miele doesn’t.

Miele only sell one high quality machine?

They only sell high end machines.

A 5 second google search suggests that their machines range in price
between expensive and 3x expensive.

But no low end machines anything even
remotely like the cheapest on the market.

And the range they do sell arent with identical
machines with just the control panel different either.

The high price one is aimed at those who will buy just because it's a lot
of money

The lower price one is aimed at those who perceive that the machine is
quality but cannot afford the top price.

The lower priced one is in fact less capable and isnt and identical
machine with just a different control panel, as you claimed.

It's the same marketing trick.

No it isnt.

As you stated there is no difference in the cost to add lots of bells and
whistles.

There is a considerable difference in the cost with a
vented tumble dryer and a condenser tumble dryer.

And then there is the marking hype - you get what you pay for.

The Stella Artois “Reassuringly Expensive” campaign tried to persuade UK
drinkers that high prices meant quality. Roll on a few years and it earned
the nickname of the 'wife beater' as it became the favourite tipple of the
UK hooligan binge drinker when sold in supermarkets cheaper than the
cheapest bottled water!

Tumble dryers are completely different.

alan_m wrote:

And then there is the marking hype - you get what you pay for.

The Stella Artois €œReassuringly Expensive€� campaign tried to persuade UK
drinkers that high prices meant quality. Roll on a few years and it
earned the nickname of the 'wife beater' as it became the favourite
tipple of the UK hooligan binge drinker when sold in supermarkets
cheaper than the cheapest bottled water!


2L of cheapest bottled sparkling water is sold for 17 pence in our local
supermarket. I don't think Stella has ever been sold that cheap!

Tim

--
Please don't feed the trolls

On 19/09/2016 13:30, Graeme wrote:

Whatever we buy
these days seems to have far more buttons and options than we ever use,
but perhaps we're the ignorant minority.

I'm in the same club then.

"cottons @ 40 degrees" for everything generally on "short cycle", only
variation being a bundle of DIY clothes or whites then it gets the full
length cycle and very occasionally for things like the sofa cover it
gets a "water plus" treatment.

Refusing to wash "her" jumpers also simplifies things enormously.

On Wed, 21 Sep 2016 10:22:49 +0000, Huge wrote:

On 2016-09-20, alan_m wrote:
On 20/09/2016 21:30, polygonum wrote:

For example, brightness adjustment of displays and LED indicators. I
really don't like super-bright displays!


I have 'painted' over bright leds with a permanent marker pen which
dims the output seen by the viewer. It's cheaper than buying a sheet
of LightDims

http://www.lightdims.com/

Electrical tape works just as well and is *much* cheaper.

Blu-tack is adjustable for thickness.



--
My posts are my copyright and if @diy_forums or Home Owners' Hub
wish to copy them they can pay me £1 a message.
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK: http://www.mirrorservice.org
*lightning surge protection* - a w_tom conductor

On 19/09/2016 18:52, ARW wrote:
"polygonum" wrote in message
...
We are going to get a condenser dryer of some sort.

Very, very unlikely to get Hotpoint, but looking at others, I am utterly
perplexed by the efficiency ratings/electricity consumption.

Let her choose it.

If you do have a prefefence then your best bet is to say "I don't like that
one" whilst pointing and the one you want:-)

--


Adam





You mean point to the one you do want and say you don't like it
and then that will be the one she chooses. Female logic.

On 21/09/2016 08:06, Tim+ wrote:
alan_m wrote:

And then there is the marking hype - you get what you pay for.

The Stella Artois €œReassuringly Expensive€� campaign tried to persuade UK
drinkers that high prices meant quality. Roll on a few years and it
earned the nickname of the 'wife beater' as it became the favourite
tipple of the UK hooligan binge drinker when sold in supermarkets
cheaper than the cheapest bottled water!


2L of cheapest bottled sparkling water is sold for 17 pence in our local
supermarket. I don't think Stella has ever been sold that cheap!

Tim


I can get a cubic metre out of my cold tap for £3.48, half of
which is for 'sewage'. No need to collect it either.

It might not fizz but I challenge anyone to tell the
difference between it and still bottled water.

On 19/09/2016 19:49, polygonum wrote:
On 19/09/2016 08:13, RJH wrote:
Been very pleased with the Beko condensor I've had for the past 3 years.

Ahem, condenser.

Sorry but we can't have anything called "Beko" in the kitchen/utility.

Buy a few Miele stickers?! I've been pleasantly surprised with the Beko
- have a look at one next time you're in a showroom. Very chunkily put
together, and well designed.



--
Cheers, Rob

On Wed, 21 Sep 2016 15:03:57 +0100, RJH wrote:

On 19/09/2016 19:49, polygonum wrote:
On 19/09/2016 08:13, RJH wrote:
Been very pleased with the Beko condensor I've had for the past 3
years.

Ahem, condenser.

Sorry but we can't have anything called "Beko" in the kitchen/utility.

Buy a few Miele stickers?! I've been pleasantly surprised with the Beko
- have a look at one next time you're in a showroom. Very chunkily put
together, and well designed.

And they keep the house warn when they catch fire.



--
My posts are my copyright and if @diy_forums or Home Owners' Hub
wish to copy them they can pay me £1 a message.
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK: http://www.mirrorservice.org
*lightning surge protection* - a w_tom conductor

Andrew wrote:
On 21/09/2016 08:06, Tim+ wrote:
alan_m wrote:

And then there is the marking hype - you get what you pay for.

The Stella Artois “Reassuringly Expensive” campaign tried to
persuade UK
drinkers that high prices meant quality. Roll on a few years and it
earned the nickname of the 'wife beater' as it became the favourite
tipple of the UK hooligan binge drinker when sold in supermarkets
cheaper than the cheapest bottled water!


2L of cheapest bottled sparkling water is sold for 17 pence in our local
supermarket. I don't think Stella has ever been sold that cheap!

Tim


I can get a cubic metre out of my cold tap for £3.48, half of
which is for 'sewage'. No need to collect it either.

It might not fizz but I challenge anyone to tell the
difference between it and still bottled water.

It's not in a bottle?

On 21/09/2016 15:22, Bob Eager wrote:
On Wed, 21 Sep 2016 15:03:57 +0100, RJH wrote:

On 19/09/2016 19:49, polygonum wrote:
On 19/09/2016 08:13, RJH wrote:
Been very pleased with the Beko condensor I've had for the past 3
years.

Ahem, condenser.

Sorry but we can't have anything called "Beko" in the kitchen/utility.

Buy a few Miele stickers?! I've been pleasantly surprised with the Beko
- have a look at one next time you're in a showroom. Very chunkily put
together, and well designed.

And they keep the house warn when they catch fire.



The idea of Miele stickers has huge appeal, but absolutely zero chance
of getting away with it.

One of the impacts of stories like the Hotpoint and Beko fires is to
cause alarm - for obvious reasons. Trouble for the manufacturers is that
the memory of those stories and the alarm makes you not want to be near
them - ever - even if the design/manufacture has been thoroughly fixed.
The effect of an association (of a brand) with an outcome (a fire and
its consequences) which means you never want to see that brand in your
house.

--
Rod

On Mon, 19 Sep 2016 19:49:00 +0100, polygonum
wrote:

On 19/09/2016 08:13, RJH wrote:
Been very pleased with the Beko condensor I've had for the past 3 years.

Sorry but we can't have anything called "Beko" in the kitchen/utility.
Reminds someone of a gecko for some strange reason... And so what if it
does????

I saw a website of generic kitchen appliances with advice on the lines
of:
"Our appliances are intentionally unbranded so whichever you chose
will compliment each other perfectly".

Some people have appliences from different manufacturers? I wonder how
they sleep at night.



--

Graham.

%Profound_observation%

On 23/09/2016 00:00, Graham. wrote:
On Mon, 19 Sep 2016 19:49:00 +0100, polygonum
wrote:

On 19/09/2016 08:13, RJH wrote:
Been very pleased with the Beko condensor I've had for the past 3 years.

Sorry but we can't have anything called "Beko" in the kitchen/utility.
Reminds someone of a gecko for some strange reason... And so what if it
does????

I saw a website of generic kitchen appliances with advice on the lines
of:
"Our appliances are intentionally unbranded so whichever you chose
will compliment each other perfectly".

Some people have appliences from different manufacturers? I wonder how
they sleep at night.



we ended up with same make of refrigerator and freezer for one reason.
We were pleased with our freezer - which we bought towards ten years ago
- so we bought the same make of refrigerator. The one we had bought at
the same time as the freezer was chosen for a narrow space but had been
disappointing and, now, smaller than we want.

Neither is a Beko! :-)

--
Rod

On 23/09/2016 01:29, pamela wrote:
You don't need to go though all the tech stuff. Go down to John
Lewis and let her choose a basic Bosch machine. Job done. :-)

John Lewis is too far away to visit.

--
Rod

On Fri, 23 Sep 2016 07:37:37 +0100, polygonum wrote:

On 23/09/2016 00:00, Graham. wrote:
On Mon, 19 Sep 2016 19:49:00 +0100, polygonum
wrote:

On 19/09/2016 08:13, RJH wrote:
Been very pleased with the Beko condensor I've had for the past 3
years.

Sorry but we can't have anything called "Beko" in the kitchen/utility.
Reminds someone of a gecko for some strange reason... And so what if
it does????

I saw a website of generic kitchen appliances with advice on the lines
of:
"Our appliances are intentionally unbranded so whichever you chose will
compliment each other perfectly".

Some people have appliences from different manufacturers? I wonder how
they sleep at night.



we ended up with same make of refrigerator and freezer for one reason.
We were pleased with our freezer - which we bought towards ten years ago
- so we bought the same make of refrigerator. The one we had bought at
the same time as the freezer was chosen for a narrow space but had been
disappointing and, now, smaller than we want.

More by luck than judgement, we've ended up with a load of Bosch stuff:

- freezer, washing machine, tumble dryer, built in double oven,
kettle, bean-to-cup coffee machine, food mixer
- corded drill, cordless {drill/driver, Ixo small driver, jigsaw,
circular saw, radio [1]}
- and a WB boiler!


[1] Yes, Bosch radio. Google Bosch PRA radio - I got it half price or I
wouldn't have bought it. Uses same batteries as the other cordless stuff,
bar the Ixo of course). Weird beast.
--
My posts are my copyright and if @diy_forums or Home Owners' Hub
wish to copy them they can pay me £1 a message.
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK: http://www.mirrorservice.org
*lightning surge protection* - a w_tom conductor

On 21/09/2016 15:22, Bob Eager wrote:
On Wed, 21 Sep 2016 15:03:57 +0100, RJH wrote:

On 19/09/2016 19:49, polygonum wrote:
On 19/09/2016 08:13, RJH wrote:
Been very pleased with the Beko condensor I've had for the past 3
years.

Ahem, condenser.

Sorry but we can't have anything called "Beko" in the kitchen/utility.

Buy a few Miele stickers?! I've been pleasantly surprised with the Beko
- have a look at one next time you're in a showroom. Very chunkily put
together, and well designed.

And they keep the house warn when they catch fire.


They all do :-)


--
Cheers, Rob