On Tue, 7 Jun 2016 23:39:02 +0100, "michael adams"
wrote:


"T i m" wrote in message
.. .
If you read the manual for that type of saw:

"CHAIN SAW 2000W TTB355CHN6.
ADDITIONAL SAFETY RULES FOR CHAIN SAW.

d. Do not operate a chain saw in a tree.
Operation of a chain saw while up in a
tree may result in personal injury."

http://www.free-instruction-manuals..../pa_597577.pdf

It also says (p 14)

" Wearing thick protective gloves, drape the chain over the
guide bar ensuring the direction(A) of travel is as marked
on the guide bar and it is fully engaged in the guide bar
sprocket.(see Fig. 6 & 7)"

As a matter of interest and just to be sure we're both
singing from the same song-sheet here, in your personal
experience do you find it necessary to wear thick
protective gloves when fitting a chain on your
chainsaw ?

Have I *always*? No. Do I normally, yes.

Speaking only for myself if somebody can't handle a
saw chain without cutting their hands to ribbons
then they maybe shouldn't be allowed near chainsaws in
the first place.

I guess it all depends on how sharp the chain is and what you are
doing with it.

Daughter repaired a garden saw for someone and sharpened it whilst she
was there. Whilst doing so she noticed a broken tooth and so when
handing it back to the customer, took the scabbard off and went to
rotate the chain to show him the broken tooth. She slipped slightly
and took a nasty chunk out of the back of one of her fingers that took
ages to heal. All the other times she was working on the saw she was
wearing gloves of course and hasn't hurt herself like that previously
AFAIK. ;-(

Assuming they can ever get the
thing on in the first place, wearing these "thick
protective gloves".

;-)

So what do you think ?

Well, I would go as far as to say 'thick' gloves were an ideal choice
(as you say, exactly what are you doing with the thing) but I
generally wear some sort of glove when working on any engines or other
hot / greasy things, simply to save my hands getting covered in
grease, cut, pinched or burned (or getting dermatitis). Even some
thinish gloves can save quite a bit of damage to skin.

When not dealing with something specifically nasty I wear gloves that
have a reasonably thin rubber grip (but thicker than those surgical
type gloves that I usually tear putting on) that have cotton backs
that stop your hands getting all sweaty.

Cheers, T i m

p.s. When she was taking her CS-30 the examiner asked one of the other
students if he was happy he had finished re-assembling the saw and
that it was ready for inspection. The student replied 'yes'. He asked
again, if he was sure and again, 'yes'. He then failed him because he
had put the chain on back_to_front. ;-(

"T i m" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 7 Jun 2016 23:21:03 +0100, "michael adams"
wrote:


"T i m" wrote in message
. ..
On Tue, 7 Jun 2016 22:39:58 +0100, "michael adams"
wrote:


"John Rumm" wrote in message
...

. I am not sure I would fancy climbing with a normal electric saw.

There's no need. As with everythng else you might need at the top of a ladder
you tie a rope around it and just take the rope(s) up with you and pull
them up afterwards. Small stuff in a bucket etc. All of which can also
have loops to hang it from branches or hooks

Not sure that was the point John was making.

If you read the manual for that type of saw:

"CHAIN SAW 2000W TTB355CHN6.
ADDITIONAL SAFETY RULES FOR CHAIN SAW.

d. Do not operate a chain saw in a tree.


So where was John climbing then ?

I'm not sure John was but he just suggested he wouldn't want to with
that type of (two handed) saw

But according to the instructions you just quoted, John
shouldn't have ever contemplated climbing anywhere with
any type of chainsaw should he ?

Given that the only place anyone would ever want to climb
with a chainsaw, is presumably a tree. And given that you
haven't come up with any alternative to trees as a likely
destination.


As for myself, being someone who takes many instructions
for the arse covering baloney they actually are, I took
John to be implying that were he to find it necessary to
climb with a chainsaw, a less cumbersome model would be
preferable. I was merely pointing out that this needn't
necessarily be an obstacle.

Your observation concerning the portentially deletarious
effects on live trees of a few cuphooks has been noted
BTW. You may console yourself with the fact that not
being made of cuphooks, they're unscrewed once they've
served their purpose, ready for next time; and most likely
the holes heal up.


michael adams

....

On Tue, 07 Jun 2016 23:55:38 +0100, Mark wrote:

T i m wrote:

Nope, I 'heard it' long before the Internet
'running lean'. shrug

http://www.off-road.com/dirtbike/tec...s-premix-myth-
vs-reality-54169.html

" A typical example: you go from a 50:1 ratio to a 20:1 ratio. Your
engine will now run leaner, and you?ll have to make jetting changes."


but that’s just another "i read it on the internet"

Versus?

do you really think that Stihl one of the largest makers of 2T engines would
advise using 25:1 in place of 50:1 if it would cause damage?

No. Just to be sure here, they advise the use of 25:1 when not using
their oil.

The theory is fine but in real life it makes “almost” no difference to the
mixture at all, I have tested this on a Dyno with a villiers starmaker
engine, cyl head temp/spark plug temp and plug colour.

Ok.

2T Lubrication is marginal at the best of time
this from your link is proven fact based
and not EU eco emissions 50:1 ********

Ok?

Tell that to an MZ I had, passed to a mate and got back some years
later with another 100,000 km's on the clock and still pulled like a
train. I must have had a whole range of 2/ oil in it over the years
but because it was autolube, didn't rely on tank mixed oil. Not to say
that it would have been any different if it had just been fed tank
mixed oil but not being a 'high performance' or a 'racing' machine it
probably wouldn't have been that sensitive.

However, a saw that is often running flat out might be able to cope
with 'anyone's' 2/ oil at 25:1 but can get away with a higher ratio
(less viscous fuel/ oil mix, so would have less impact on the fuel /
air ratio other than making it slightly *richer*) as the lubrication
would supposedly be to a higher standard.

?All the major manufacturers produce two-stroke racing engines in their off-
road motorcycles. Virtually all of them recommended 20:1 or 24:1 mix ratios.

The issue isn't the actual ratio, it's the ratio when used on a
specific machine and it's designed roll.


?3. A second test they performed was to run synthetic in two identical
engines and one was run at 24:1, the other was run at 50:1 The engine that
ran 24:1 had less piston skirt wear, and less rod bearing wear, but had the
same main roller bearing wear as the engine run at 50:1.

Yup? So, what ratio was it designed to run on, 24:1 I hope?

Cheers, T i m

p.s. It's funny that Stihls '4-Mix' generation of engines have valves
and run as a 4/ but still use fuel / oil mix for lubrication (saves
having a wet sump). Worst of all worlds?

On Wed, 8 Jun 2016 00:14:13 +0100, "michael adams"
wrote:


"T i m" wrote in message
.. .
On Tue, 7 Jun 2016 23:21:03 +0100, "michael adams"
wrote:


"T i m" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 7 Jun 2016 22:39:58 +0100, "michael adams"
wrote:


"John Rumm" wrote in message
...

. I am not sure I would fancy climbing with a normal electric saw.

There's no need. As with everythng else you might need at the top of a ladder
you tie a rope around it and just take the rope(s) up with you and pull
them up afterwards. Small stuff in a bucket etc. All of which can also
have loops to hang it from branches or hooks

Not sure that was the point John was making.

If you read the manual for that type of saw:

"CHAIN SAW 2000W TTB355CHN6.
ADDITIONAL SAFETY RULES FOR CHAIN SAW.

d. Do not operate a chain saw in a tree.


So where was John climbing then ?

I'm not sure John was but he just suggested he wouldn't want to with
that type of (two handed) saw

But according to the instructions you just quoted, John
shouldn't have ever contemplated climbing anywhere with
any type of chainsaw should he ?

Erm no, that's not what I was saying. I was agreeing with him that
when lopping and pruning whilst climbing (in a tree) they normally use
a 'top handle' saw (not the type of saw suggested by the OP).

Given that the only place anyone would ever want to climb
with a chainsaw, is presumably a tree. And given that you
haven't come up with any alternative to trees as a likely
destination.

shrug


As for myself, being someone who takes many instructions
for the arse covering baloney they actually are, I took
John to be implying that were he to find it necessary to
climb with a chainsaw, a less cumbersome model would be
preferable.

A more 'appropriate' design of model, yes.

I was merely pointing out that this needn't
necessarily be an obstacle.

No, quite. If you a chogging down a big tree you need a big (two
handled) saw but that's a different kettle of fish and procedure.

Your observation concerning the portentially deletarious
effects on live trees of a few cuphooks has been noted
BTW.

Ok.

You may console yourself with the fact that not
being made of cuphooks, they're unscrewed once they've
served their purpose, ready for next time; and most likely
the holes heal up.

'Most likely?' I'm not sure the local Tree Inspector would accept your
'hopes' on a 500 year oak with a TPO on it? ;-) Oh, and the last thing
anyone would want sticking out of a tree they were climbing in would
be any sort of 'hook' (for all sorts of reasons).

Even when climbing in a live tree (you don't want to damage) you try
to use 'cambium savers' on your main climbing ropes. Not that everyone
does of course and I think it depends on the tree, how often it might
be climbed, what the goals are and who is doing it (eg, if they care
or not).

Cheers, T i m

"T i m" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 7 Jun 2016 09:19:45 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

On Tuesday, 7 June 2016 16:25:41 UTC+1, Jonathan wrote:
On Tuesday, June 7, 2016 at 3:50:01 PM UTC+1, Michael Chare wrote:
On 07/06/2016 12:24, Jonathan wrote:
On Tuesday, June 7, 2016 at 10:20:23 AM UTC+1, tabbypurr wrote:
On Tuesday, 7 June 2016 08:42:39 UTC+1, John Rumm wrote:
On 06/06/2016 22:15, tabbypurr wrote:

I'm after a chainsaw. They span from £50 Titan to a lot more for
Makitas. What should I look for? Are Titans good enough for
occasional jobs? It won't get used a lot. 16" bar needed, or
more.

Electric or petrol?

What jobs do you need to do with it?

Always on the ground, or working from a ladder / while climbing?

Electric. Primarily for slicing stuff up on the ground. Inevitably
it will end up being used in climbing too, but primarily ground
work. I'm also looking at making a frame/holder for it to slice up
wood relatively accurately.

My safety training told us that was very dangerous with a chain saw.

Jonathan


Which, using saw whilst up a tree or using saw with a frame to hold
wood?

Using a frame to hold wood. There is a tendancy for the saw to catch and
spin the log dangerously. Much safer to sut it on the ground, if worse
for your back.

jonathan

There's misunderstanding somewhere in all this. Nothing is going to spin
tree trunks any day soon, no matter how much it tries.

I'm not sure you mentioned the size of wood being cut before now?

He did say he needs a 16" bar or more.

It's the saw that will be put in a frame to operate like a chop saw.

So not the way you might normally cut though 'a trunk' using the
bumper spikes / dogs as a lever?

The trunks will be on the ground at all time - or maybe a couple of
inches off it. The resulting restraint of the saw must make it much safer
I'd think.

If the trunks were in a 'V' or up against something in your frame that
might resist the more cylindrical ones rolling back then it might work
(to be safer than a hand held saw doing the same).

I guess what I'm asking at this point is whether we'll run into trouble
doing this with a £50 Titan. I expect it's what we'll get for now. It
might do a day or 2 of chopping once a month.

As long as you aren't putting any extra strain on the cheaper saw
(that a more 'industrial saw might deal with better) then no, I can't
see any reason why it wouldn't do what you want, especially if the
'day or two's worth aren't 8 hours continuous use (as the cheaper saws
might not be rated for that (as has been mentioned elsewhere)).

On 07/06/2016 22:39, michael adams wrote:
"John Rumm" wrote in message
...

. I am not sure I would fancy climbing with a normal electric saw.

There's no need. As with everythng else you might need at the top of a ladder
you tie a rope around it and just take the rope(s) up with you and pull
them up afterwards. Small stuff in a bucket etc. All of which can also
have loops to hang it from branches or hooks

Not really what I was talking about... I was more thinking of using the
saw at height, where you may need to use the saw safely one handed. You
can do that with a top handle saw, but not a normal layout one.

(tree climbers will normally have the saw on a lanyard anyway, so they
can climb freely and pull the saw up to use when they need it, and
simply "drop" it when they are done).



--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 08/06/2016 00:14, michael adams wrote:
"T i m" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 7 Jun 2016 23:21:03 +0100, "michael adams"
wrote:


"T i m" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 7 Jun 2016 22:39:58 +0100, "michael adams"
wrote:


"John Rumm" wrote in message
...

. I am not sure I would fancy climbing with a normal electric saw.

There's no need. As with everythng else you might need at the top of a ladder
you tie a rope around it and just take the rope(s) up with you and pull
them up afterwards. Small stuff in a bucket etc. All of which can also
have loops to hang it from branches or hooks

Not sure that was the point John was making.

If you read the manual for that type of saw:

"CHAIN SAW 2000W TTB355CHN6.
ADDITIONAL SAFETY RULES FOR CHAIN SAW.

d. Do not operate a chain saw in a tree.


So where was John climbing then ?

I'm not sure John was but he just suggested he wouldn't want to with
that type of (two handed) saw

But according to the instructions you just quoted, John
shouldn't have ever contemplated climbing anywhere with
any type of chainsaw should he ?

For the avoidance of doubt, I was suggesting that using a two handled
saw which also has a trailing flex, while elevated was not something I
personally would want to do. Since the flex alone would be a right PITA
and a risk of entanglement, and a saw that you can only use safely two
handed is not ideal if you lack a third arm to steady yourself.

Given that the only place anyone would ever want to climb
with a chainsaw, is presumably a tree. And given that you

Or a ladder...

haven't come up with any alternative to trees as a likely
destination.

I have used a chainsaw for chopping through rafters in a roof, lifting
joists from a plasterboard ceiling, and sectioning and removing a beam
embedded in a masonry wall.

As for myself, being someone who takes many instructions
for the arse covering baloney they actually are, I took
John to be implying that were he to find it necessary to
climb with a chainsaw, a less cumbersome model would be
preferable. I was merely pointing out that this needn't
necessarily be an obstacle.

Indeed, see above.

Your observation concerning the portentially deletarious
effects on live trees of a few cuphooks has been noted
BTW. You may console yourself with the fact that not
being made of cuphooks, they're unscrewed once they've
served their purpose, ready for next time; and most likely
the holes heal up.

You can perhaps appreciate that if someone get a pro in to prune a tree,
its worth their while not engaging in any practices that will endanger
the tree and expose themselves to future claims.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 08/06/2016 00:11, T i m wrote:

p.s. When she was taking her CS-30 the examiner asked one of the other
students if he was happy he had finished re-assembling the saw and
that it was ready for inspection. The student replied 'yes'. He asked
again, if he was sure and again, 'yes'. He then failed him because he
had put the chain on back_to_front. ;-(

I did that on a pole / pruner saw the other day - took the bar off to
clean out the gunk and see if I could improve the oiling. Reassembled,
and then though this does not seem to be cutting at all well ;-)

The do cut so much better when you drive them in the right direction!

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On Wednesday, 8 June 2016 02:00:22 UTC+1, John Rumm wrote:
On 08/06/2016 00:11, T i m wrote:

p.s. When she was taking her CS-30 the examiner asked one of the other
students if he was happy he had finished re-assembling the saw and
that it was ready for inspection. The student replied 'yes'. He asked
again, if he was sure and again, 'yes'. He then failed him because he
had put the chain on back_to_front. ;-(

I did that on a pole / pruner saw the other day - took the bar off to
clean out the gunk and see if I could improve the oiling. Reassembled,
and then though this does not seem to be cutting at all well ;-)

The do cut so much better when you drive them in the right direction!

I'll try & remember that


NT

On 08/06/2016 09:00, wrote:
On Wednesday, 8 June 2016 02:00:22 UTC+1, John Rumm wrote:
On 08/06/2016 00:11, T i m wrote:

p.s. When she was taking her CS-30 the examiner asked one of the other
students if he was happy he had finished re-assembling the saw and
that it was ready for inspection. The student replied 'yes'. He asked
again, if he was sure and again, 'yes'. He then failed him because he
had put the chain on back_to_front. ;-(

I did that on a pole / pruner saw the other day - took the bar off to
clean out the gunk and see if I could improve the oiling. Reassembled,
and then though this does not seem to be cutting at all well ;-)

The do cut so much better when you drive them in the right direction!

I'll try & remember that


NT

Years ago my neighbour was struggling to cut up a dead apple tree with a
borrowed chain saw. One look at it and I saw the chain was on backwards.
Apparently the guy he borrowed it from said "best of luck, I cant cut
anything with it"

Mike

On Wed, 8 Jun 2016 01:44:27 +0100, John Rumm
wrote:

On 07/06/2016 22:39, michael adams wrote:
"John Rumm" wrote in message
...

. I am not sure I would fancy climbing with a normal electric saw.

There's no need. As with everythng else you might need at the top of a ladder
you tie a rope around it and just take the rope(s) up with you and pull
them up afterwards. Small stuff in a bucket etc. All of which can also
have loops to hang it from branches or hooks

Not really what I was talking about... I was more thinking of using the
saw at height, where you may need to use the saw safely one handed. You
can do that with a top handle saw, but not a normal layout one.

And the whole thing about working in a tree by 'climbing' (typically
with rope and harness and / or strop and spikes to get up into the
canopy) is you don't have to keep hold of a ladder and so have both
hands free for use (inc a two handed saw).

This also comes into it for many (professionals):

http://www.trees.org.uk/Help-Advice/...king-at-height

(tree climbers will normally have the saw on a lanyard anyway, so they
can climb freely and pull the saw up to use when they need it, and
simply "drop" it when they are done).

Yup. Ideally they will also be anchored to the tree with a 'wire'
strop that can't be accidentally cut though with the saw, unlike their
climbing and safety lines. ;-(

And much of this climbing gear needs regular (6 months?) LOLER testing
.....

http://www.ecotreecare.co.uk/loler-inspection.htm

(archive page but still relevant)

Cheers, T i m

"T i m" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 7 Jun 2016 23:39:02 +0100, "michael adams"
As a matter of interest and just to be sure we're both
singing from the same song-sheet here, in your personal
experience do you find it necessary to wear thick
protective gloves when fitting a chain on your
chainsaw ?

Have I *always*? No. Do I normally, yes.

We're clearly singing from different songsheets then.

Speaking only for myself if somebody can't handle a
saw chain without cutting their hands to ribbons
then they maybe shouldn't be allowed near chainsaws in
the first place.

I guess it all depends on how sharp the chain is and what you are
doing with it.

If a chain isn't sharp, either new or re-sharpened, then I can't
really see much point in fitting it on the chainsaw myself.

But then YMMV I suppose.


michael adams

....

"T i m" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 8 Jun 2016 01:44:27 +0100, John Rumm
wrote:

On 07/06/2016 22:39, michael adams wrote:
"John Rumm" wrote in message
...

. I am not sure I would fancy climbing with a normal electric saw.

There's no need. As with everythng else you might need at the top of a ladder
you tie a rope around it and just take the rope(s) up with you and pull
them up afterwards. Small stuff in a bucket etc. All of which can also
have loops to hang it from branches or hooks

Not really what I was talking about... I was more thinking of using the
saw at height, where you may need to use the saw safely one handed. You
can do that with a top handle saw, but not a normal layout one.

And the whole thing about working in a tree by 'climbing' (typically
with rope and harness and / or strop and spikes to get up into the
canopy) is you don't have to keep hold of a ladder and so have both
hands free for use (inc a two handed saw).

But hold on. Only just a while back you posted this

If you read the manual for that type of saw:

"CHAIN SAW 2000W TTB355CHN6.
ADDITIONAL SAFETY RULES FOR CHAIN SAW.

d. Do not operate a chain saw in a tree.

So have you now changed your mind about it being permissable to
use a two handed saw* in a tree ?

Oh and BTW nobody is suggesting anyone has to hold onto a
ladder. In order to develop a strong trunk, the standard
procedure for most trees is to remove all the lower
branches usually to a height of six or eight feet
leaving a smooth trunk. And so short of trying to
jump the usual expedient is to use a ladder to get
get up to the branches.

*Simply because a saw is two handed doesn't necessarily
mean it takes requires to hands to operate. A rope sling
or similar around the neck can be looped through
the top handle and the saw suspended from that.
Certainly when making vertical cuts in horizontal
branches
All the electrics I've ever used have an instant brake -
the saw stops dead as soon as the trigger is
released which IMHO anyway means that anyone with
any appreciation of kickback and the importance of
not binding the saw - by taking two or more angled
cuts and removing segments rather than going straight
through would need to be pretty dumb to come to grief.
The chainsaw is only used for the bulk of the cut in
any case. Once the branch start to creak its an easy
matter to finish the job with a bowsaw.





This also comes into it for many (professionals):

http://www.trees.org.uk/Help-Advice/...king-at-height

(tree climbers will normally have the saw on a lanyard anyway, so they
can climb freely and pull the saw up to use when they need it, and
simply "drop" it when they are done).

Yup. Ideally they will also be anchored to the tree with a 'wire'
strop that can't be accidentally cut though with the saw, unlike their
climbing and safety lines. ;-(

The safety lines won't be under tension so why wouldn't they drape
them behind their shoulder as is standard practice with cords
when using power tools.


And much of this climbing gear needs regular (6 months?) LOLER testing
....

http://www.ecotreecare.co.uk/loler-inspection.htm

(archive page but still relevant)

Relevant how exactly ?

So how often will your average DIY'er be using all this
climbing gear ?

Unlike DIY'ers professionals are in a hurry, and need to satisfy
insurance companies; who for sound business reasons need to assume
that all the people they insure are idiots. Who will therefore
need to be kitted out with idiot proof equipment. At great
expense natch.


michael adams

....

On 08/06/2016 12:39, michael adams wrote:
"T i m" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 8 Jun 2016 01:44:27 +0100, John Rumm
wrote:

On 07/06/2016 22:39, michael adams wrote:
"John Rumm" wrote in message
...

. I am not sure I would fancy climbing with a normal electric saw.

There's no need. As with everythng else you might need at the top of a ladder
you tie a rope around it and just take the rope(s) up with you and pull
them up afterwards. Small stuff in a bucket etc. All of which can also
have loops to hang it from branches or hooks

Not really what I was talking about... I was more thinking of using the
saw at height, where you may need to use the saw safely one handed. You
can do that with a top handle saw, but not a normal layout one.

And the whole thing about working in a tree by 'climbing' (typically
with rope and harness and / or strop and spikes to get up into the
canopy) is you don't have to keep hold of a ladder and so have both
hands free for use (inc a two handed saw).

But hold on. Only just a while back you posted this

If you read the manual for that type of saw:

"CHAIN SAW 2000W TTB355CHN6.
ADDITIONAL SAFETY RULES FOR CHAIN SAW.

d. Do not operate a chain saw in a tree.

So have you now changed your mind about it being permissable to
use a two handed saw* in a tree ?

There are times when pros will use larger saws while in the canopy
(usually when felling large trees in sections), but its not the general
choice of saw when pruning etc.

Note that those instructions cited above are for a non pro user of a
light duty non pro *electric* tool. There is a world of difference
between what can be made safe enough for someone fit, well trained, and
with all the appropriate tools and PPE (not to mention co-workers
trained in aerial rescue standing by), as opposed to a casual user
working alone without the benefit of much experience, or adequate kit.

*Simply because a saw is two handed doesn't necessarily
mean it takes requires to hands to operate. A rope sling
or similar around the neck can be looped through
the top handle and the saw suspended from that.
Certainly when making vertical cuts in horizontal
branches

You could do that, but it would be stupid IMHO since you would defeat
the chain brake that needs the presence of a hand on the front handle.

All the electrics I've ever used have an instant brake -
the saw stops dead as soon as the trigger is
released which IMHO anyway means that anyone with

The key flaw in that argument is "as soon as the trigger is released".
Kickback happens fast - the chain will be in your face long before you
get a chance to let go of the trigger. The brake is designed so that its
activated, and the chain is stopped, by the kickback of the saw itself.

Yup. Ideally they will also be anchored to the tree with a 'wire'
strop that can't be accidentally cut though with the saw, unlike their
climbing and safety lines. ;-(

The safety lines won't be under tension so why wouldn't they drape
them behind their shoulder as is standard practice with cords
when using power tools.

Hard to guarantee when you are falling out of a tree with a saw on full
revs!

So how often will your average DIY'er be using all this
climbing gear ?

Hardly ever - hence why the instructions simply say "don't do it".

Unlike DIY'ers professionals are in a hurry, and need to satisfy
insurance companies; who for sound business reasons need to assume
that all the people they insure are idiots. Who will therefore
need to be kitted out with idiot proof equipment. At great
expense natch.

The correct kit does not make the tasks of working at height, with
trees, and with chainsaws "idiot proof" by any stretch of the
imagination. Each can be dangerous tasks in isolation, let alone when
doing all at once.



--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On Wednesday, 8 June 2016 13:36:39 UTC+1, John Rumm wrote:
On 08/06/2016 12:39, michael adams wrote:
"T i m" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 8 Jun 2016 01:44:27 +0100, John Rumm
wrote:
On 07/06/2016 22:39, michael adams wrote:
"John Rumm" wrote in message
...

. I am not sure I would fancy climbing with a normal electric saw.

There's no need. As with everythng else you might need at the top of a ladder
you tie a rope around it and just take the rope(s) up with you and pull
them up afterwards. Small stuff in a bucket etc. All of which can also
have loops to hang it from branches or hooks

Not really what I was talking about... I was more thinking of using the
saw at height, where you may need to use the saw safely one handed. You
can do that with a top handle saw, but not a normal layout one.

And the whole thing about working in a tree by 'climbing' (typically
with rope and harness and / or strop and spikes to get up into the
canopy) is you don't have to keep hold of a ladder and so have both
hands free for use (inc a two handed saw).

But hold on. Only just a while back you posted this

If you read the manual for that type of saw:

"CHAIN SAW 2000W TTB355CHN6.
ADDITIONAL SAFETY RULES FOR CHAIN SAW.

d. Do not operate a chain saw in a tree.

So have you now changed your mind about it being permissable to
use a two handed saw* in a tree ?

There are times when pros will use larger saws while in the canopy
(usually when felling large trees in sections), but its not the general
choice of saw when pruning etc.

Note that those instructions cited above are for a non pro user of a
light duty non pro *electric* tool. There is a world of difference
between what can be made safe enough for someone fit, well trained, and
with all the appropriate tools and PPE (not to mention co-workers
trained in aerial rescue standing by), as opposed to a casual user
working alone without the benefit of much experience, or adequate kit.

*Simply because a saw is two handed doesn't necessarily
mean it takes requires to hands to operate. A rope sling
or similar around the neck can be looped through
the top handle and the saw suspended from that.
Certainly when making vertical cuts in horizontal
branches

You could do that, but it would be stupid IMHO since you would defeat
the chain brake that needs the presence of a hand on the front handle.

All the electrics I've ever used have an instant brake -
the saw stops dead as soon as the trigger is
released which IMHO anyway means that anyone with

The key flaw in that argument is "as soon as the trigger is released".
Kickback happens fast - the chain will be in your face long before you
get a chance to let go of the trigger. The brake is designed so that its
activated, and the chain is stopped, by the kickback of the saw itself.

Yup. Ideally they will also be anchored to the tree with a 'wire'
strop that can't be accidentally cut though with the saw, unlike their
climbing and safety lines. ;-(

The safety lines won't be under tension so why wouldn't they drape
them behind their shoulder as is standard practice with cords
when using power tools.

Hard to guarantee when you are falling out of a tree with a saw on full
revs!

So how often will your average DIY'er be using all this
climbing gear ?

Hardly ever - hence why the instructions simply say "don't do it".

Unlike DIY'ers professionals are in a hurry, and need to satisfy
insurance companies; who for sound business reasons need to assume
that all the people they insure are idiots. Who will therefore
need to be kitted out with idiot proof equipment. At great
expense natch.

The correct kit does not make the tasks of working at height, with
trees, and with chainsaws "idiot proof" by any stretch of the
imagination. Each can be dangerous tasks in isolation, let alone when
doing all at once.

My fondness for removing tree limbs with a chainsaw is rapidly fading.


NT

"John Rumm" wrote in message
...

The key flaw in that argument is "as soon as the trigger is released". Kickback happens
fast - the chain will be in your face long before you get a chance to let go of the
trigger. The brake is designed so that its activated, and the chain is stopped, by the
kickback of the saw itself.

Not when using the underside of the blade, which when lopping
branches from above or level seems the most sensible course to take.
The teeth on the underside of the blade are moving towards the user.
Any kickback on the underside of the blade will be in opposition
to the direction of the teeth.
Kickback basically means the teeth of the saw gripping the work and
spitting it back towards the user. However in this case the work
- a branch is fixed, so rather than the saw spitting the branch
back to the user it jumps the other way. Out of the users hands
and into the blue beyond on the other side of the branch.
The trigger having long been released before any possibily
arises of it "walking" around the branch.



In any case chainsaws are so efficient at removing wood that
there's no real excuse for anyone to leave themselves open to
kickback by attempting to lop branches with a single straight
through cut, IMO. I prefer to cut out a v shaped notch widening
and deepening it it with successive strokes. Finishing with a
bowsaw.
Basically anyone doing otherwise is asking for trouble
IMO as when the branch starts to bend there's always the
possibility of the cut closing up and pinching the chain
at the bottom. This has been my experince when using
bowsaws and there's no reason to think the same won't
apply in this case. Which is why I've never been tempted
to put it to the test


michael adams

....

On 08/06/2016 13:45, wrote:
On Wednesday, 8 June 2016 13:36:39 UTC+1, John Rumm wrote:

The correct kit does not make the tasks of working at height, with
trees, and with chainsaws "idiot proof" by any stretch of the
imagination. Each can be dangerous tasks in isolation, let alone when
doing all at once.

My fondness for removing tree limbs with a chainsaw is rapidly fading.

It would be worth looking at either a dedicated pole saw, or one that is
an attachment to a weed whacker style power head (sometimes called a
"pruner" attachment). These mean you can easily lop branches a few
meters up while working from the ground, with the only real risk being
hit by bits that you have just cut off.

A moderate length one, can also be more safely used on a ladder etc,
since the saw itself is far enough away that you can't easily come into
contact with it.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On Wednesday, 8 June 2016 17:13:23 UTC+1, John Rumm wrote:
On 08/06/2016 13:45, tabbypurr wrote:
On Wednesday, 8 June 2016 13:36:39 UTC+1, John Rumm wrote:

The correct kit does not make the tasks of working at height, with
trees, and with chainsaws "idiot proof" by any stretch of the
imagination. Each can be dangerous tasks in isolation, let alone when
doing all at once.

My fondness for removing tree limbs with a chainsaw is rapidly fading.

It would be worth looking at either a dedicated pole saw, or one that is
an attachment to a weed whacker style power head (sometimes called a
"pruner" attachment). These mean you can easily lop branches a few
meters up while working from the ground, with the only real risk being
hit by bits that you have just cut off.

a rather large and fatal risk. The one just down weighs nearly 2 tonnes. No way am I being anywhere near under them when they come down.

A moderate length one, can also be more safely used on a ladder etc,
since the saw itself is far enough away that you can't easily come into
contact with it.

being on a ladder with a 2 tonne branch dropping past sounds suicidal. Or swinging past, bouncing past etc. I'm not even considering it.


NT

On 08/06/2016 14:25, michael adams wrote:
"John Rumm" wrote in message
...

The key flaw in that argument is "as soon as the trigger is released". Kickback happens
fast - the chain will be in your face long before you get a chance to let go of the
trigger. The brake is designed so that its activated, and the chain is stopped, by the
kickback of the saw itself.

Not when using the underside of the blade, which when lopping
branches from above or level seems the most sensible course to take.
The teeth on the underside of the blade are moving towards the user.
Any kickback on the underside of the blade will be in opposition
to the direction of the teeth.

The risk of kickback when limbing is not usually from the direct cut you
are making, but from the inherent difficulties of making cuts in spaces
with lots of branches. Kickback (in the proper sense) happens with the
top quadrant of the nose wheel of the bar hits something. Typically
another branch or something you can't easily see from where you are
working. That then tries to flip the bar toward the operator.

Kickback basically means the teeth of the saw gripping the work and
spitting it back towards the user. However in this case the work

With fixed limbs that is less of a risk - although its possible to end
up launching the cut end at you nadgers.

- a branch is fixed, so rather than the saw spitting the branch
back to the user it jumps the other way. Out of the users hands
and into the blue beyond on the other side of the branch.
The trigger having long been released before any possibily
arises of it "walking" around the branch.

There is a risk when not on stable ground that a sudden "pull" on the
saw might unbalance you. Keeping the saws dog teeth engaged or close to
the limb helps. As does fitting a semi chisel chain with properly filed
cut limiters.

In any case chainsaws are so efficient at removing wood that
there's no real excuse for anyone to leave themselves open to
kickback by attempting to lop branches with a single straight
through cut, IMO. I prefer to cut out a v shaped notch widening
and deepening it it with successive strokes. Finishing with a
bowsaw.

If I am cutting a thickish branch, then I start with a partial cut on
the under side of the limb (i.e. using the top of the bar - so you have
to take care to keep well out of the kickback zone) a bit less than a
quarter of the branch thickness - i.e. not so far that the cut can begin
to close on the bar. Then cut from the top down toward the partial cut.
That will stop the branch from folding down and splitting away as you
get near the end of the cut, since the position it would naturally try
to hinge about is now in the log and not at the bottom of it. It will
normally come off cleanly.

Basically anyone doing otherwise is asking for trouble
IMO as when the branch starts to bend there's always the
possibility of the cut closing up and pinching the chain
at the bottom. This has been my experince when using
bowsaws and there's no reason to think the same won't
apply in this case. Which is why I've never been tempted
to put it to the test


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 08/06/2016 17:37, wrote:
On Wednesday, 8 June 2016 17:13:23 UTC+1, John Rumm wrote:
On 08/06/2016 13:45, tabbypurr wrote:
On Wednesday, 8 June 2016 13:36:39 UTC+1, John Rumm wrote:

The correct kit does not make the tasks of working at height, with
trees, and with chainsaws "idiot proof" by any stretch of the
imagination. Each can be dangerous tasks in isolation, let alone when
doing all at once.

My fondness for removing tree limbs with a chainsaw is rapidly fading.

It would be worth looking at either a dedicated pole saw, or one that is
an attachment to a weed whacker style power head (sometimes called a
"pruner" attachment). These mean you can easily lop branches a few
meters up while working from the ground, with the only real risk being
hit by bits that you have just cut off.

a rather large and fatal risk. The one just down weighs nearly 2 tonnes. No way am I being anywhere near under them when they come down.

One option is to prune it in sections - take the end off first, then
work back toward the trunk. That way you are not cutting free massive
amounts of timber in any one go.

A moderate length one, can also be more safely used on a ladder etc,
since the saw itself is far enough away that you can't easily come into
contact with it.

being on a ladder with a 2 tonne branch dropping past sounds suicidal. Or swinging past, bouncing past etc. I'm not even considering it.

Yup, not the way to go for that size of branch - but ok for 2" - 3"
thick branches usually.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On Wed, 8 Jun 2016 12:16:26 +0100, "michael adams"
wrote:

snip
Speaking only for myself if somebody can't handle a
saw chain without cutting their hands to ribbons
then they maybe shouldn't be allowed near chainsaws in
the first place.

I guess it all depends on how sharp the chain is and what you are
doing with it.

If a chain isn't sharp, either new or re-sharpened, then I can't
really see much point in fitting it on the chainsaw myself.

What if you were taking it off, or testing the engine?

But then YMMV I suppose.

Possibly, assuming you never need to take a chain off, or rotate one
by hand to test for free movement or a snag / tight spot, only fit
them? ;-)

Cheers, T i m

On Wed, 8 Jun 2016 18:18:10 +0100, John Rumm
wrote:

snip

One option is to prune it in sections - take the end off first, then
work back toward the trunk. That way you are not cutting free massive
amounts of timber in any one go.

'Taking a tree down' rather than 'felling' and dismantling on the
ground.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OdOyOK7MEz0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EOBsbLac8lw


Cheers, T i m

wrote in message
...
On Wednesday, 8 June 2016 13:36:39 UTC+1, John Rumm wrote:
On 08/06/2016 12:39, michael adams wrote:
"T i m" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 8 Jun 2016 01:44:27 +0100, John Rumm
wrote:
On 07/06/2016 22:39, michael adams wrote:
"John Rumm" wrote in message
...

. I am not sure I would fancy climbing with a normal electric saw.

There's no need. As with everythng else you might need at the top of
a ladder
you tie a rope around it and just take the rope(s) up with you and
pull
them up afterwards. Small stuff in a bucket etc. All of which can
also
have loops to hang it from branches or hooks

Not really what I was talking about... I was more thinking of using
the
saw at height, where you may need to use the saw safely one handed.
You
can do that with a top handle saw, but not a normal layout one.

And the whole thing about working in a tree by 'climbing' (typically
with rope and harness and / or strop and spikes to get up into the
canopy) is you don't have to keep hold of a ladder and so have both
hands free for use (inc a two handed saw).

But hold on. Only just a while back you posted this

If you read the manual for that type of saw:

"CHAIN SAW 2000W TTB355CHN6.
ADDITIONAL SAFETY RULES FOR CHAIN SAW.

d. Do not operate a chain saw in a tree.

So have you now changed your mind about it being permissable to
use a two handed saw* in a tree ?

There are times when pros will use larger saws while in the canopy
(usually when felling large trees in sections), but its not the general
choice of saw when pruning etc.

Note that those instructions cited above are for a non pro user of a
light duty non pro *electric* tool. There is a world of difference
between what can be made safe enough for someone fit, well trained, and
with all the appropriate tools and PPE (not to mention co-workers
trained in aerial rescue standing by), as opposed to a casual user
working alone without the benefit of much experience, or adequate kit.

*Simply because a saw is two handed doesn't necessarily
mean it takes requires to hands to operate. A rope sling
or similar around the neck can be looped through
the top handle and the saw suspended from that.
Certainly when making vertical cuts in horizontal
branches

You could do that, but it would be stupid IMHO since you would defeat
the chain brake that needs the presence of a hand on the front handle.

All the electrics I've ever used have an instant brake -
the saw stops dead as soon as the trigger is
released which IMHO anyway means that anyone with

The key flaw in that argument is "as soon as the trigger is released".
Kickback happens fast - the chain will be in your face long before you
get a chance to let go of the trigger. The brake is designed so that its
activated, and the chain is stopped, by the kickback of the saw itself.

Yup. Ideally they will also be anchored to the tree with a 'wire'
strop that can't be accidentally cut though with the saw, unlike their
climbing and safety lines. ;-(

The safety lines won't be under tension so why wouldn't they drape
them behind their shoulder as is standard practice with cords
when using power tools.

Hard to guarantee when you are falling out of a tree with a saw on full
revs!

So how often will your average DIY'er be using all this
climbing gear ?

Hardly ever - hence why the instructions simply say "don't do it".

Unlike DIY'ers professionals are in a hurry, and need to satisfy
insurance companies; who for sound business reasons need to assume
that all the people they insure are idiots. Who will therefore
need to be kitted out with idiot proof equipment. At great
expense natch.

The correct kit does not make the tasks of working at height, with
trees, and with chainsaws "idiot proof" by any stretch of the
imagination. Each can be dangerous tasks in isolation, let alone when
doing all at once.

My fondness for removing tree limbs with a chainsaw is rapidly fading.

Trouble is that there aren't too many viable alternatives.

Using a manual bow saw is certainly a lot safer, but is a
hell of a lot or work, particularly with the thicker tree limbs.

An electric sabre saw is certainly much safer but isnt anything
like as good for cutting up the stuff on the ground so you
really need to have both, the sabre saw and the chainsaw.

And I'm just talking about DIY, not the professionals. They
exclusively use chainsaws for their much higher productivity
which matters a lot more for them than with DIY.

In article , T i m
scribeth thus
On Wed, 8 Jun 2016 18:18:10 +0100, John Rumm
wrote:

snip

One option is to prune it in sections - take the end off first, then
work back toward the trunk. That way you are not cutting free massive
amounts of timber in any one go.

'Taking a tree down' rather than 'felling' and dismantling on the
ground.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OdOyOK7MEz0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EOBsbLac8lw


Cheers, T i m


Heres a real Pro in action;!...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iemQmoDtS9c#t=78.724036
--
Tony Sayer

On Wednesday, 8 June 2016 18:18:08 UTC+1, John Rumm wrote:
On 08/06/2016 17:37, tabbypurr wrote:
On Wednesday, 8 June 2016 17:13:23 UTC+1, John Rumm wrote:
On 08/06/2016 13:45, tabbypurr wrote:
On Wednesday, 8 June 2016 13:36:39 UTC+1, John Rumm wrote:

The correct kit does not make the tasks of working at height, with
trees, and with chainsaws "idiot proof" by any stretch of the
imagination. Each can be dangerous tasks in isolation, let alone when
doing all at once.

My fondness for removing tree limbs with a chainsaw is rapidly fading.

It would be worth looking at either a dedicated pole saw, or one that is
an attachment to a weed whacker style power head (sometimes called a
"pruner" attachment). These mean you can easily lop branches a few
meters up while working from the ground, with the only real risk being
hit by bits that you have just cut off.

a rather large and fatal risk. The one just down weighs nearly 2 tonnes. No way am I being anywhere near under them when they come down.

One option is to prune it in sections - take the end off first, then
work back toward the trunk. That way you are not cutting free massive
amounts of timber in any one go.

the last one was a foot thick. Even a 3" length falling would be a hazard. I've got enough kit to do 6", the chainsaw is really wanted for bigger stuff.


A moderate length one, can also be more safely used on a ladder etc,
since the saw itself is far enough away that you can't easily come into
contact with it.

being on a ladder with a 2 tonne branch dropping past sounds suicidal. Or swinging past, bouncing past etc. I'm not even considering it.

Yup, not the way to go for that size of branch - but ok for 2" - 3"
thick branches usually.

Indeed. But I'd sooner use a safer saw for those. Chains are quick but don't exactly have a good safety record.


NT

wrote in message
...

the last one was a foot thick. Even a 3" length falling would be a hazard. I've got
enough
kit to do 6", the chainsaw is really wanted for bigger stuff.


being on a ladder with a 2 tonne branch dropping past sounds suicidal. Or swinging
past, bouncing past etc. I'm not even considering it.


Indeed. But I'd sooner use a safer saw for those. Chains are quick but don't exactly
have a good safety record.


NT

The exact nature of your situation isn't immediately obvious from what you posted.

This isn't supposed to be a cross examination I'm just trying to get it straight in my
head

If you're faced with branches which are a foot think then that suggests they
must be at a considerable height from the ground. Except maybe for
really old trees which are covered by a preservation order.

Which is what makes your ladder comment a bit puzzling unless its an
exceptionally long ladder.

Which also begs the question as to how, if you don't already own a
chainsaw the "last one" "came down".

First up with that weight and size, as has already been pointed out you'll need to
take it down in bits. Ideally you'd want to rope these from above and ease them
down slowly.

All my own tree pruning is in suburban gardens, sometimes branches overhanging
neighbours gardens, sometimes overhanging a roof. All these have to be secured
with ropes both from above and below to stop the branch tipping over
or crashing down prior to being cut.

Second up you need to be able to reach the site of the cut safely.

If you can't get to it with a ladder then you'll need to get men in with ropes

If you can do this using a ladder then as has been said you need to
secure this with a rope. You can do this prior to climbing the ladder by looping
a rope around the branch (the same technique using long poles, an overhanging
arm with a latch at the end, and a plumb bob all DIY as is used for the branch ropes)
and then looping this through the appropriate top rung of the ladder and pulling tight as
you ascend. To then secure it with another rope. This is mainly for dodgy angled
branches.
(With all loops not on branches to be cut you need a second
cord tied through the (metal) loop to ground level to open
the loop and pull it back down afterwards. A mistake you only
make once.)

Assuming you can reach it, before ever reaching for a chainsaw you
can severely weaken a branch - sufficient to make it less work with
a bowsaw, simply by drilling a succession of overlapping holes in
the topside, making flats with a chisel and mallet to site the drill
bit. How successful this would be would depend on the length
of the available drill but its advisable not to even try to go all the
way through. Basically the branch/section will start to separate
due to its own weight and this can be finished off with the bowsaw. It
will also be necessary to clean up any remaining stump with the bowsaw
afterwards.

However before even starting the above its maybe advisable to make sure
you have enough spare batteries, sharp drill bits and bowsaw blades to finish
the job in one go.


michael adams

....

"Rod Speed" wrote in message
...

An electric sabre saw is certainly much safer but isnt anything
like as good for cutting up the stuff on the ground so you
really need to have both, the sabre saw and the chainsaw.

Unless you spend a few hundred squd on a low vibration model
a reciprocating saw is also an ideal way of loosening/removing any
fillings at the same time. Having used every conceivable type of power
tool going my Aldlidl cheapo was the only time I've ever thought it advisable
to remove my watch before use.

Quite what it would be like up a tree is anyone's guess


michael adams

....

"T i m" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 8 Jun 2016 12:16:26 +0100, "michael adams"
wrote:

snip
Speaking only for myself if somebody can't handle a
saw chain without cutting their hands to ribbons
then they maybe shouldn't be allowed near chainsaws in
the first place.

I guess it all depends on how sharp the chain is and what you are
doing with it.

If a chain isn't sharp, either new or re-sharpened, then I can't
really see much point in fitting it on the chainsaw myself.

What if you were taking it off, or testing the engine?

But presumably anyone willing to fit a new chainsaw without
wearing gloves will have already taken off the previous one
without wearing gloves.

I fear you've rather shot yourself in the foot there.

I was only suggesting that

a) anyone foolish enough to cut their hands to ribbons simply
by fitting a chainsaw chain shouldn't be allowed anywhere
near a chainsaw in the first place

whereas you're now suggestion

b) anyone foolish enough to cut their hands to ribbons simply
by fitting a chainsaw chain having already cut their hands
to ribbons in removing the previous one *should* be allowed
near a chainsaw.

Chains have four sides. One with sharp cutting teeth; one with
innocuous teeth to engage the wheel; and two perfectly
safe flat sides.

You do the arithmetic.



michael adams

....

"John Rumm" wrote in message
...

The risk of kickback when limbing is not usually from the direct cut you are making,
but from the inherent difficulties of making cuts in spaces with lots of branches.

In my own case any obstructing branches will have already been
removed with the bowsaw.


If I am cutting a thickish branch, then I start with a partial cut on the under side of
the limb (i.e. using the top of the bar - so you have to take care to keep well out of
the kickback zone)

Well that's where we'll have to agree to differ them. While
"professionals" with their safety ropes, helmets and lightweight
saws may be happy making cuts with the top of the bar, the first
lesson I learned with chainsaws is to only make cuts from on top
using the bottom of the bar. Basically the amount of time and
effort saved as compared with using a bowsaw * on really substantial
branches of really dense wood makes the effort of finishing the cut
off and subsequently trimming if necessary with a bowsaw or pruning
saw well worth the trouble.


michael adams

* trial and error has demonstrated to my satisfaction at least
various disadvantages in trying to use any other type of powered
saw up a tree.


....


....

On Friday, 10 June 2016 10:02:43 UTC+1, michael adams wrote:
tabbypurr wrote in message
...

the last one was a foot thick. Even a 3" length falling would be a hazard. I've got
enough
kit to do 6", the chainsaw is really wanted for bigger stuff.


being on a ladder with a 2 tonne branch dropping past sounds suicidal. Or swinging
past, bouncing past etc. I'm not even considering it.


Indeed. But I'd sooner use a safer saw for those. Chains are quick but don't exactly
have a good safety record.

The exact nature of your situation isn't immediately obvious from what you posted.

This isn't supposed to be a cross examination I'm just trying to get it straight in my
head

If you're faced with branches which are a foot think then that suggests they
must be at a considerable height from the ground. Except maybe for
really old trees which are covered by a preservation order.

The last one was TPOed. I'm not really willing to climb great heights for this. More interested in doing fallen trees & sections, and ones where immediate removal is needed.

Which is what makes your ladder comment a bit puzzling unless its an
exceptionally long ladder.

Which also begs the question as to how, if you don't already own a
chainsaw the "last one" "came down".

It brought itself down, landing on 3 walls, 2 roofs & more. Lady luck was in attendance, no-one was in the way at the time and the roofs are fine. It has now been brought to the ground and everything upto 7" cut. Next job is to chop the main limb into usable wood. I'm thinking of rigging a frame so the saw works like a chopsaw. Accurate-ish cuts will make good use of the timber, it will become lots of small dimension stuff.

First up with that weight and size, as has already been pointed out you'll need to
take it down in bits. Ideally you'd want to rope these from above and ease them
down slowly.

All my own tree pruning is in suburban gardens, sometimes branches overhanging
neighbours gardens, sometimes overhanging a roof. All these have to be secured
with ropes both from above and below to stop the branch tipping over
or crashing down prior to being cut.

Second up you need to be able to reach the site of the cut safely.

If you can't get to it with a ladder then you'll need to get men in with ropes

If you can do this using a ladder then as has been said you need to
secure this with a rope. You can do this prior to climbing the ladder by looping
a rope around the branch (the same technique using long poles, an overhanging
arm with a latch at the end, and a plumb bob all DIY as is used for the branch ropes)
and then looping this through the appropriate top rung of the ladder and pulling tight as
you ascend. To then secure it with another rope. This is mainly for dodgy angled
branches.
(With all loops not on branches to be cut you need a second
cord tied through the (metal) loop to ground level to open
the loop and pull it back down afterwards. A mistake you only
make once.)

Assuming you can reach it, before ever reaching for a chainsaw you
can severely weaken a branch - sufficient to make it less work with
a bowsaw, simply by drilling a succession of overlapping holes in
the topside, making flats with a chisel and mallet to site the drill
bit. How successful this would be would depend on the length
of the available drill but its advisable not to even try to go all the
way through. Basically the branch/section will start to separate
due to its own weight and this can be finished off with the bowsaw. It
will also be necessary to clean up any remaining stump with the bowsaw
afterwards.

Bowsaws take too much time to be practical. We used them this time where nothing else would reach, but not otherwise.

However before even starting the above its maybe advisable to make sure
you have enough spare batteries, sharp drill bits and bowsaw blades to finish
the job in one go.


michael adams


NT

wrote in message
...

It brought itself down, landing on 3 walls, 2 roofs & more. Lady luck was in
attendance, no-one was in the
way at the time and the roofs are fine. It has now been brought to the ground and
everything upto 7" cut.
Next job is to chop the main limb into usable wood. I'm thinking of rigging a frame so
the saw works like
a chopsaw. Accurate-ish cuts will make good use of the timber, it will become lots of
small dimension
stuff.

Just so long as your insurers are happy about the rest of the tree, then presumably
there's no need to remove any more branches.

As to the chopsaw frame, without even looking I'd imagine there will be one
or two youtube videos, if not more, demonstrating that very thing.

As to your original question, with a cheapo saw, I'd be inclined to spread the work over
a number of days or even weeks with plenty of tea breaks rather than all in one go. You'd
probably need to budget for one or two new chains as well. So a first priority would be
to
make sure that these are readily available - ideally aimed at that specific make and
model
(among others) rather than just some generic specification ; and at a reasonable price
say
around £15 ish*. 1 minute's Googling should throw up any suppliers on Amazon and eBay
if such exist.

* By the time the cost of the file is included its probably not economical for all but
the
most dedicated hobbyist to even contemplate doing their own sharpening


michael adams

....

In article , michael
adams scribeth thus

"John Rumm" wrote in message
...

The risk of kickback when limbing is not usually from the direct cut you are
making,
but from the inherent difficulties of making cuts in spaces with lots of
branches.

In my own case any obstructing branches will have already been
removed with the bowsaw.


If I am cutting a thickish branch, then I start with a partial cut on the
under side of
the limb (i.e. using the top of the bar - so you have to take care to keep
well out of
the kickback zone)

Well that's where we'll have to agree to differ them. While
"professionals" with their safety ropes, helmets and lightweight
saws may be happy making cuts with the top of the bar, the first
lesson I learned with chainsaws is to only make cuts from on top
using the bottom of the bar. Basically the amount of time and
effort saved as compared with using a bowsaw * on really substantial
branches of really dense wood makes the effort of finishing the cut
off and subsequently trimming if necessary with a bowsaw or pruning
saw well worth the trouble.


michael adams

* trial and error has demonstrated to my satisfaction at least
various disadvantages in trying to use any other type of powered
saw up a tree.


We know a song about that;!.....


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QgaRd4d8hOY

...


...



--
Tony Sayer

On Friday, 10 June 2016 11:33:55 UTC+1, michael adams wrote:

As to your original question, with a cheapo saw, I'd be inclined to spread the work over
a number of days or even weeks with plenty of tea breaks rather than all in one go. You'd

not really practical. It will all be done in one shot, so a full day's work is expected. One lunch break is all. I also have doubts about a cheapass diy saw doing continuous work. But I also don't want to pay Makita, this job is more cost sensitive than is usual here.

probably need to budget for one or two new chains as well. So a first priority would be
to
make sure that these are readily available - ideally aimed at that specific make and
model
(among others) rather than just some generic specification ; and at a reasonable price
say
around £15 ish*. 1 minute's Googling should throw up any suppliers on Amazon and eBay
if such exist.

yup, will check that

* By the time the cost of the file is included its probably not economical for all but
the
most dedicated hobbyist to even contemplate doing their own sharpening

Why not? The files are cheap. I sharpen everything else.


NT

wrote in message
...
On Friday, 10 June 2016 11:33:55 UTC+1, michael adams wrote:
* By the time the cost of the file is included its probably not economical for all
but
the most dedicated hobbyist to even contemplate doing their own sharpening

Why not? The files are cheap. I sharpen everything else.

Given that sharpening things isn't an innate skill, but is something which needs to be
practised and learned for each new thing needing sharpening, this comes as close,
by my way of thinking anyway to a "dedicated hobbyist" as its possible to get, IMO.


michael adams

....

wrote in message
...
On Friday, 10 June 2016 11:33:55 UTC+1, michael adams wrote:

As to your original question, with a cheapo saw, I'd be inclined to spread the work
over
a number of days or even weeks with plenty of tea breaks rather than all in one go.
You'd

not really practical. It will all be done in one shot, so a full day's work is expected.
One lunch break is all.
I also have doubts about a cheapass diy saw doing continuous work. But I also don't
want to pay Makita,
this job is more cost sensitive than is usual here.

Sorry, not really paying attention. Assuming this is say a 31 ft branch which is
presumably
a gross over-estimate - and assuming you want it in 1 ft lumps that's only 30 cuts.
Say 2 minutes per cut another gross overestimate and 10 minutes rest/cooling for the
motor
each time thats only 360 minutes in total. Which even a cheapo should manage. However as
an insurance policy it might be an idea to fit a new chain after each ten cuts ,
regardless of
whether you think it needs one or not. So an outlay of an extra £30 max. Or £15 for
a branch of between 10 and 20ft.

When cutting the branch each side of the cut should ideally be supported in at least
two places, close to the cut either side and near each end. So there's absolutely no
movement
possible or pinching as the saw goes through the wood. (And subsequent faffing about
trying
to release the saw while keeping the chain in place) If the branch is already resting on
the ground then such a possibility will still need to be allowed for.

michael adams

....

On Friday, 10 June 2016 13:02:57 UTC+1, michael adams wrote:
tabbypurr wrote in message
...
On Friday, 10 June 2016 11:33:55 UTC+1, michael adams wrote:

As to your original question, with a cheapo saw, I'd be inclined to spread the work
over
a number of days or even weeks with plenty of tea breaks rather than all in one go.
You'd

not really practical. It will all be done in one shot, so a full day's work is expected.
One lunch break is all.
I also have doubts about a cheapass diy saw doing continuous work. But I also don't
want to pay Makita,
this job is more cost sensitive than is usual here.

Sorry, not really paying attention. Assuming this is say a 31 ft branch which is
presumably
a gross over-estimate - and assuming you want it in 1 ft lumps that's only 30 cuts.

It's around 12' long, and will be cut into 1.5-2" long discs. A cut every 2" would be 72 cuts. There's also some smaller material, so under 100 cuts. Thinking about this further the main time consumer will be moving the sawing platform, so it looks like the poor titan would get lots of brief breaks.

Say 2 minutes per cut another gross overestimate and 10 minutes rest/cooling for the
motor
each time thats only 360 minutes in total. Which even a cheapo should manage. However as
an insurance policy it might be an idea to fit a new chain after each ten cuts ,
regardless of
whether you think it needs one or not. So an outlay of an extra £30 max. Or £15 for
a branch of between 10 and 20ft.

I'm not clear what that would insure against.


When cutting the branch each side of the cut should ideally be supported in at least
two places, close to the cut either side and near each end. So there's absolutely no
movement
possible or pinching as the saw goes through the wood. (And subsequent faffing about
trying
to release the saw while keeping the chain in place) If the branch is already resting on
the ground then such a possibility will still need to be allowed for.

michael adams

Most of the cutting will be removing an unsupported 2" or so of wood, so it'll be relatively easy to support the main log and avoid movement. For the initial chop up into handleable lengths the limb will of course be supported close to the cut and elsewhere.


NT

wrote in message
...
On Friday, 10 June 2016 13:02:57 UTC+1, michael adams wrote:
.. However as

an insurance policy it might be an idea to fit a new chain after each ten cuts ,
regardless of
whether you think it needs one or not. So an outlay of an extra £30 max. Or £15 for
a branch of between 10 and 20ft.

I'm not clear what that would insure against.

A blunt chain will put more strain on the motor.

At a guess half the reason many cheapos give up the ghost so early is because
of the chain going blunt. And maybe its not being that good to start with. And the
same goes with the original blades fitted to any number of cheapo tools.

A new blade/drill bit/cutter/chain can often work wonders on any old rubbish
IMHE. Even if a premium replacement may cost half as much as the
original tool.

michael adams

....

On Friday, 10 June 2016 15:29:03 UTC+1, michael adams wrote:
tabbypurr wrote in message
...
On Friday, 10 June 2016 13:02:57 UTC+1, michael adams wrote:
. However as

an insurance policy it might be an idea to fit a new chain after each ten cuts ,
regardless of
whether you think it needs one or not. So an outlay of an extra £30 max. Or £15 for
a branch of between 10 and 20ft.

I'm not clear what that would insure against.

A blunt chain will put more strain on the motor.

At a guess half the reason many cheapos give up the ghost so early is because
of the chain going blunt. And maybe its not being that good to start with.. And the
same goes with the original blades fitted to any number of cheapo tools.

A new blade/drill bit/cutter/chain can often work wonders on any old rubbish
IMHE. Even if a premium replacement may cost half as much as the
original tool.

michael adams

2 chains at £15 each is £30. The saw is only £50. So to break even there would need to be a 60% chance of the original chain killing it..

I'm still undecided whether to go Titan or something 2-3 x the price.


NT

On Friday, June 10, 2016 at 10:52:38 AM UTC+1, wrote:
On Friday, 10 June 2016 10:02:43 UTC+1, michael adams wrote:
tabbypurr wrote in message
Next job is to chop the main limb into usable wood. I'm thinking of rigging a frame so the saw works like a chopsaw.


Sounds absolutely lethal to me.

Jonathan

Jonathan wrote
wrote

Next job is to chop the main limb into usable wood. I'm
thinking of rigging a frame so the saw works like a chopsaw.

Sounds absolutely lethal to me.

Dont see why it should be lethal.

But given that none of the pros use chainsaws
like that, not clear how well it would work either.

With a normal chainsaw you use the spikes on the
front of the saw body to dig into the wood and provide
a leaver that allows you to sort of leaver the bar into the
wood to put more pressure on the chain so it cuts better.
Can't see how that could work with a chainsaw rigged
up to work like a chopsaw.