"This is because the two reservoirs are linked by one of Britains biggest
post-war industrial projects: the Dinorwig pumped storage power station,
hidden within this mountain. It is effectively a monster battery: power is
stored by pumping water from Llyn Peris to Marchlyn Mawr at night, then
generated by letting it flow back down at times of peak demand"

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/05...tric_mountain/

--
(\_/)
(='.'=) Windows 10: less of an OS, more of a drive-by mugging.
(")_(") -- "Esme" on el Reg

On 16/05/16 15:14, Mike Tomlinson wrote:

"This is because the two reservoirs are linked by one of Britains biggest
post-war industrial projects: the Dinorwig pumped storage power station,
hidden within this mountain. It is effectively a monster battery: power is
stored by pumping water from Llyn Peris to Marchlyn Mawr at night, then
generated by letting it flow back down at times of peak demand"

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/05...tric_mountain/


What's even more amazing is that with the press of a button marked
"MAXGEN"[1], it can go from zero to full output in 15 seconds.

[1] At least when the control was at Bankside

On Mon, 16 May 2016 16:07:05 +0100, Tim Watts wrote:

On 16/05/16 15:14, Mike Tomlinson wrote:

"This is because the two reservoirs are linked by one of Britains
biggest post-war industrial projects: the Dinorwig pumped storage power
station, hidden within this mountain. It is effectively a monster
battery: power is stored by pumping water from Llyn Peris to Marchlyn
Mawr at night, then generated by letting it flow back down at times of
peak demand"

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/05...tric_mountain/


What's even more amazing is that with the press of a button marked
"MAXGEN"[1], it can go from zero to full output in 15 seconds.

[1] At least when the control was at Bankside

ISTR the 0 to 360MW time was 10 seconds[A], according to the full-time
tour guide at Dinorwig's "Electric Mountain" (and, iirc, this fact was
also mentioned by the part time "Tour Guide"[b] at the Ffestiniog PSH
facility on a prior visit when we were informed that the 0 to full output
time there was 60 seconds).

[A] This only applied when one (possibly more) of the 360MW gensets were
motoring the runners in dry air at a cost of a mere 4MW draw from the
national grid for each genset. ISTR Dinorwig had a total of 6 gensets
whilst Ffestiniog only had four[C]).

[b] The "Tour Guides" at Ffestiniog were only part timers on account of
their main job being plant maintenance engineers. Without a doubt, the
quality of the information being imparted (both prepared spiel and
answers to questions raised by their audiences) was far superior to that
given by the full time tour guides at Dinorwig.

Assuming Ffestiniog still operates guided tours these days, if you're
planning on touring both facilities, I'd recommend saving the Ffestiniog
tour for last just to save an anticlimactic disappointment unless you're
a bit of a technophobe (in which case, only do the Dinorwig tour and
forget the Ffestiniog one).

[C] I think, from memory alone, Ffestiniog's gensets were 180MW each.
Easy enough to check with google but ICBA right now. :-)

--
Johnny B Good

En el artículo , Tim Watts
escribió:

What's even more amazing is that with the press of a button marked
"MAXGEN"[1], it can go from zero to full output in 15 seconds.

Ah, that's why the two old ladies wet themselves.

"He adds that staff activate them without warning. Once, a group of more
mature ladies were standing by unit one when this happened. Amazing how
fast they went round the rest of the tour, he adds"

I think I quite fancy a trip there this summer.

--
(\_/)
(='.'=) Windows 10: less of an OS, more of a drive-by mugging.
(")_(") -- "Esme" on el Reg

On Mon, 16 May 2016 16:07:05 +0100, Tim Watts wrote:

What's even more amazing is that with the press of a button marked
"MAXGEN"[1], it can go from zero to full output in 15 seconds.

I think that's from in sync spinning in air, rather than stationary.
The switch round from fully pumping to full generation is the one
that is really impressive. It's not that much longer than the in
sync/spinning in air one but there is an awful lot of water that has
to change direction of movement.

--
Cheers
Dave.

Mike Tomlinson wrote:
"This is because the two reservoirs are linked by one of Britain's
biggest post-war industrial projects: the Dinorwig pumped storage
power station, hidden within this mountain. It is effectively a
monster battery: power is stored by pumping water from Llyn Peris to
Marchlyn Mawr at night, then generated by letting it flow back down
at times of peak demand"

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/05...tric_mountain/

I visited it about fifteen years ago, very interesting tour for just a few
quid, you are taken inside the mountain on a full sized 56 seater coach!

The tubes that the water comes down are immense when you get close to them

On 5/16/2016 3:14 PM, Mike Tomlinson wrote:

"This is because the two reservoirs are linked by one of Britains biggest
post-war industrial projects: the Dinorwig pumped storage power station,
hidden within this mountain. It is effectively a monster battery: power is
stored by pumping water from Llyn Peris to Marchlyn Mawr at night, then
generated by letting it flow back down at times of peak demand"

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/05...tric_mountain/


Never been there, but there used to be (perhaps still is) an interesting
drive through big underground tunnels to get to the control rooms for
RAF Fylingdales. I had the good fortune in the 1980s to have a tour
including the inside of one of the original Golf-balls which contained
big steerable parabolic dishes, in the days before phased array radar.

This was seriously impressive mechanical engineering (and had an
amazingly good availability). I can't immediately spot any web links,
but it's the sort of thing which should have been preserved, but hasn't
been.

It was also a bit of a time warp, being manned by RAF officers with more
than a passing resemblance to Peter Sellers' Wing Commander in Dr
Strangelove.

We watched a video of a test made on an American site, but they also ran
a test for us there, after talking to their opposite numbers in Wyoming.

In the American film, as the blips were confirmed on the screens to
controller drawled slowly "We are entering a severe tactical situation".
At the same point in the UK test, the two RAF officers were literally
hopping up and down with excitement, saying "It's a raid, it's a raid,
it's definitely a raid!".

On 16/05/16 19:42, Johnny B Good wrote:
On Mon, 16 May 2016 16:07:05 +0100, Tim Watts wrote:

On 16/05/16 15:14, Mike Tomlinson wrote:

"This is because the two reservoirs are linked by one of Britains
biggest post-war industrial projects: the Dinorwig pumped storage power
station, hidden within this mountain. It is effectively a monster
battery: power is stored by pumping water from Llyn Peris to Marchlyn
Mawr at night, then generated by letting it flow back down at times of
peak demand"

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/05...tric_mountain/


What's even more amazing is that with the press of a button marked
"MAXGEN"[1], it can go from zero to full output in 15 seconds.

[1] At least when the control was at Bankside

ISTR the 0 to 360MW time was 10 seconds[A], according to the full-time
tour guide at Dinorwig's "Electric Mountain" (and, iirc, this fact was
also mentioned by the part time "Tour Guide"[b] at the Ffestiniog PSH
facility on a prior visit when we were informed that the 0 to full output
time there was 60 seconds).

[A] This only applied when one (possibly more) of the 360MW gensets were
motoring the runners in dry air at a cost of a mere 4MW draw from the
national grid for each genset. ISTR Dinorwig had a total of 6 gensets
whilst Ffestiniog only had four[C]).

[b] The "Tour Guides" at Ffestiniog were only part timers on account of
their main job being plant maintenance engineers. Without a doubt, the
quality of the information being imparted (both prepared spiel and
answers to questions raised by their audiences) was far superior to that
given by the full time tour guides at Dinorwig.

Assuming Ffestiniog still operates guided tours these days, if you're
planning on touring both facilities, I'd recommend saving the Ffestiniog
tour for last just to save an anticlimactic disappointment unless you're
a bit of a technophobe (in which case, only do the Dinorwig tour and
forget the Ffestiniog one).

[C] I think, from memory alone, Ffestiniog's gensets were 180MW each.
Easy enough to check with google but ICBA right now. :-)


My source was a Nat Grid Engineer who's job involved maintaining the
original control panel

Can there be anyone who did not already know about this?I remember when it
was being built and all the hype surrounding it. Is it still the only one?
Brian

--
----- -
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...

Blind user, so no pictures please!
"Mike Tomlinson" wrote in message
...

"This is because the two reservoirs are linked by one of Britain's biggest
post-war industrial projects: the Dinorwig pumped storage power station,
hidden within this mountain. It is effectively a monster battery: power is
stored by pumping water from Llyn Peris to Marchlyn Mawr at night, then
generated by letting it flow back down at times of peak demand"

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/05...tric_mountain/

--
(\_/)
(='.'=) Windows 10: less of an OS, more of a drive-by mugging.
(")_(") -- "Esme" on el Reg

On 17/05/16 08:12, Brian Gaff wrote:
Can there be anyone who did not already know about this?I remember when it
was being built and all the hype surrounding it. Is it still the only one?

No, and its not even the first, cos I went round one in wales in the 60s.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ffestiniog_Power_Station


Brian



--
All political activity makes complete sense once the proposition that
all government is basically a self-legalising protection racket, is
fully understood.

On Tue, 17 May 2016 08:12:18 +0100, Brian Gaff wrote:

Can there be anyone who did not already know about this?I remember when
it was being built and all the hype surrounding it. Is it still the only
one?

No, Brian. As I've already mentioned, there's a smaller version just up
the road at Ffestiniog. Apart from the smaller scale (just four 180MW
turbine motor/generators), Ffestiniog isn't buried inside a mountain.

BTW, according to wikipedia, Dinorwig's 6 turbine motor/generators are
300MW, not the 360MW I claimed (possibly a conflation of twice 180MW of a
Ffestiniog turbine and the actual 300MW of the Dinorwig units).

Both facilities are well worth the guided tours (assuming they're still
being run at Ffestiniog - I visited the place about a decade back).

Dinorwig is very impressive for its sheer scale and the fact that it's
completely self contained within the man made caverns of a mountain but
is very light on technical detail (full time tour guides).

Ffestiniog doesn't have the grand scale of Dinorwig but you get to see a
lot more of the machinery close up under the guidance of part time tour
guides whose day job is maintaining and operating the station which means
you get much higher quality information on the technicalities of
operating a pumped storage hydro station, especially if you care to ask
the "Tour Guide" supplemental questions (which, when tried on the Dinorwig
tour guides, often got a blank stare or, at best, an oversimplified
explanation that begged more questions than answers - luckily today,
there's always wikipedia to help fill in the missing blanks although it
falls short of 'hearing it from the horse's mouth' experience at
Ffestiniog).

--
Johnny B Good

On Tue, 17 May 2016 08:12:18 +0100, Brian Gaff wrote:

Can there be anyone who did not already know about this?I remember when
it was being built and all the hype surrounding it. Is it still the only
one?
Brian

The Ffestiniog unit just down the road actually has a *total* capacity
of 360MW. The turbine sets are only rated at 90MW each, not the 180MW I
mentioned previously. My bad for not double checking the facts and
relying on memory alone. :-(

--
Johnny B Good

In article , Johnny B Good
wrote:
On Tue, 17 May 2016 08:12:18 +0100, Brian Gaff wrote:

Can there be anyone who did not already know about this?I remember when
it was being built and all the hype surrounding it. Is it still the
only one?

No, Brian. As I've already mentioned, there's a smaller version just up
the road at Ffestiniog. Apart from the smaller scale (just four 180MW
turbine motor/generators), Ffestiniog isn't buried inside a mountain.

BTW, according to wikipedia, Dinorwig's 6 turbine motor/generators are
300MW, not the 360MW I claimed (possibly a conflation of twice 180MW of a
Ffestiniog turbine and the actual 300MW of the Dinorwig units).

Both facilities are well worth the guided tours (assuming they're still
being run at Ffestiniog - I visited the place about a decade back).

Dinorwig is very impressive for its sheer scale and the fact that it's
completely self contained within the man made caverns of a mountain but
is very light on technical detail (full time tour guides).

Ffestiniog doesn't have the grand scale of Dinorwig but you get to see a
lot more of the machinery close up under the guidance of part time tour
guides whose day job is maintaining and operating the station which means
you get much higher quality information on the technicalities of
operating a pumped storage hydro station, especially if you care to ask
the "Tour Guide" supplemental questions (which, when tried on the
Dinorwig tour guides, often got a blank stare or, at best, an
oversimplified explanation that begged more questions than answers -
luckily today, there's always wikipedia to help fill in the missing
blanks although it falls short of 'hearing it from the horse's mouth'
experience at Ffestiniog).

There is also a similar scheme at Ben Cruachan in Scotland. It's knowna s
the Hollow Mountain.

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England

On Mon, 16 May 2016 15:14:06 +0100, Mike Tomlinson
wrote:


"This is because the two reservoirs are linked by one of Britains biggest
post-war industrial projects: the Dinorwig pumped storage power station,
hidden within this mountain. It is effectively a monster battery: power is
stored by pumping water from Llyn Peris to Marchlyn Mawr at night, then
generated by letting it flow back down at times of peak demand"

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/05...tric_mountain/


Went around in 2003 - very impressive. Would be even more impressive
in solar/wind could be used to refill the top reservoir.
--
AnthonyL

On 5/17/2016 8:12 AM, Brian Gaff wrote:
Can there be anyone who did not already know about this?I remember when it
was being built and all the hype surrounding it. Is it still the only one?
Brian

I think it was the world's biggest when it was being built, although now
US and China have larger. The first one to be comparable in capacity to
a contemporary power station.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...power_stations

"Mike Tomlinson" wrote in message
...

"This is because the two reservoirs are linked by one of Britain's biggest
post-war industrial projects: the Dinorwig pumped storage power station,
hidden within this mountain. It is effectively a monster battery: power is
stored by pumping water from Llyn Peris to Marchlyn Mawr at night, then
generated by letting it flow back down at times of peak demand"

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/05...tric_mountain/



You do realise of course that that project was initiated by Lefty**** Socialists ?

By the time Our Leader assumed Supreme Power in 1979 she was told that it
would cost even more to cancel the project than had already been spent.

Our leader was also misled by Lefty**** socialists who'd infiltrated the
Ministry of Technology into commissioning the Sizewell B Power Station.
However once the traitors were unmasked and dealt with Our Leader
immediately cancelled all plans for any more nuclear power stations,
and in 1984 transformed BNFL into a public limited company.
This enabled her successor the traitor Major to complete her work by finally
privatising BNFL as British (sic)Energy allowing it be bought by EDF
Électricité de France (sic) in 2009.

So that while all our Nuclear Power stations may be owned by France, all our
nuclear weapons are leased from the USA we have to buy all our gas from the
Russians, most of our car factories are owned by the Japanese, the Germans,
the Chinese, all our steelworks by Indians at least on June 23rd we British will
be able to show all these bloody foreigners what we really think of them.
It's what Our Leader would have wanted, after all.


michael adams

....

newshound wrote
Brian Gaff wrote

Can there be anyone who did not already know about this?I remember when
it was being built and all the hype surrounding it. Is it still the only
one?

I think it was the world's biggest when it was being built,

Nothing like it, the Snowy Scheme always left it
for dead and was done a long time before it too.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snowy_...Power_stations

although now US and China have larger. The first one to be comparable in
capacity to a contemporary power station.

That's wrong too.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...power_stations

That's a misleading list because the Snowy system is lots of separate pumped
storage hydro power stations all part of the one overall system.

On 16 May 2016 21:31:51 GMT, Huge wrote:

What's even more amazing is that with the press of a button
marked
"MAXGEN"[1], it can go from zero to full output in 15 seconds.

I think that's from in sync spinning in air, rather than
stationary.

They keep one turbine spinning all the time in order to provide
"instant" output. I think it's rather less that 15 seconds, too.

The information about the various start times seems to have
disappeared from the web. A turbine on line and using water I should
imagine can go from "tickover" to full chat as fast as the inlet
valve can open. As you say I'd expect rather less than 15 seconds.

I wonder how many tonnes of water per second each turbine uses at
maxium output?

--
Cheers
Dave.

"Chris Hogg" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 18 May 2016 07:38:48 +1000, "Rod Speed"
wrote:

newshound wrote
Brian Gaff wrote

Can there be anyone who did not already know about this?I remember when
it was being built and all the hype surrounding it. Is it still the
only
one?

I think it was the world's biggest when it was being built,

Nothing like it, the Snowy Scheme always left it
for dead and was done a long time before it too.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snowy_...Power_stations

although now US and China have larger. The first one to be comparable in
capacity to a contemporary power station.

That's wrong too.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...power_stations

That's a misleading list because the Snowy system is lots of separate
pumped
storage hydro power stations all part of the one overall system.

According to your first Wiki link, the bulk of the Snowy Mountain
scheme is simple hydro.

The list may imply that but the reality is very different.

Only one pumping station is mentioned, confirmed as the
Tumut-3 pumped storage system in your second Wiki link.

That is because the complex series of storages isnt
just a set of turbines and pumps for each storage.

It is rated at 1500 MW and was completed in 1974

That was the last in the Snowy system.

http://tinyurl.com/hc7cqqv (Dinorwig 1730 MW, duration 6 hrs,
completed 1984). Marchlyn Mawr, the Dinorwig reservoir, has a
capacity of 9.2 million cubic metres http://tinyurl.com/zvx7lbb
http://tinyurl.com/hr8qwlx , whereas the reservoir at Talbingo
that feeds Tumut-3 has a capacity of 920 million cubic metres
http://tinyurl.com/z8ljova http://tinyurl.com/haonl9r about 100 times
the capacity of Marchlyn_Mawr (although whether all of this is
available to Tumut-3 isn't stated).

It is. And so is all the other storage too.

On Tue, 17 May 2016 13:56:11 +0100, Chris Hogg wrote:

On Tue, 17 May 2016 11:54:13 GMT, lid (AnthonyL)
wrote:

On Mon, 16 May 2016 15:14:06 +0100, Mike Tomlinson
wrote:


"This is because the two reservoirs are linked by one of Britains biggest
post-war industrial projects: the Dinorwig pumped storage power station,
hidden within this mountain. It is effectively a monster battery: power is
stored by pumping water from Llyn Peris to Marchlyn Mawr at night, then
generated by letting it flow back down at times of peak demand"

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/05...tric_mountain/


Went around in 2003 - very impressive. Would be even more impressive
in solar/wind could be used to refill the top reservoir.

What makes you think it isn't ATM? Electricity, once generated,
becomes anonymous and untraceable, so it's reasonable to assume that a
proportion of the night-time wind-generated electricity goes to
refilling the top reservoir, when there's wind, that is. Of course,
that reservoir is filled at night when demand is low and there's
surplus on the grid, so no solar available for what you suggest.


Solar could do some refilling during the day. Just cover most of
Wales with panels. Out of curiosity, anyone calculate how many panels
would be needed to lift one ton(ne) in say 6hrs of average light?

--
AnthonyL

En el artículo , AnthonyL
escribió:

Solar could do some refilling during the day. Just cover most of
Wales with panels.



Some would say that would be an improvement.

--
(\_/)
(='.'=) Windows 10: less of an OS, more of a drive-by mugging.
(")_(") -- "Esme" on el Reg

On 18/05/2016 17:04, Mike Tomlinson wrote:
En el artículo , AnthonyL
escribió:

Solar could do some refilling during the day. Just cover most of
Wales with panels.



Some would say that would be an improvement.

Nah - just import it from Portugal:

http://www.theguardian.com/environme...e-energy-alone

There are loads of solar panels covering enough of Wales already.

--
Rod

On 18/05/16 17:17, Chris Hogg wrote:
On Wed, 18 May 2016 13:59:31 +0100, Chris Hogg wrote:

On Wed, 18 May 2016 11:45:44 GMT, lid (AnthonyL)
wrote:

Out of curiosity, anyone calculate how many panels
would be needed to lift one ton(ne) in say 6hrs of average light?

To make that question sensible, you'd need to specify the height
you're lifting it to.

Here's a calculation (stepwise, for my benefit, and to allow it to be
torn to shreds by those who can do it better, as I don't believe the
result!).

The upper lake at Dinorwig is a little over 500 metres above the lower
lake, so I'll assume a height of 500 metres.

1 tonne exerts 9806 Newtons of force.

The work done raising 1 tonne by 500 metres is 9806x500 = 4903000
Newton-metres.

A Joule is 1 Newton-metre, so the work done raising 1 tonne by 500
metres is 4903000 Joules.

This is achieved in 6 hrs, or 6x60x60 = 21600 seconds.

Units of power are Joules per second

So the power required is 4903000/21600 = 227 Joules per second.

A Joule per second is a Watt.

So the power required to raise 1 tonne by 500 metres in 6 hours is 227
Watts.

AIUI a typical domestic solar panel delivers 260 Watts at full blast.

So 1 panel should do it, with a little to spare.

I find that hard to believe! Where have I gone wrong?

Seems OK to me. 100 meters an hour is 27mm or a little over an inch a
second.

A human being with a tackle can lift a tonne that fast easy.

In fact an Irish Navvy could shovel and lift 30 tonnes a day back in the
50's.

I think you are encountering the true meaning of 'energy density' - that
a tonne of water up a hill is actually not really that interesting -
maybe a couple of Kwh at best.


--
"The great thing about Glasgow is that if there's a nuclear attack it'll
look exactly the same afterwards."

Billy Connolly

On 18/05/16 17:48, Chris Hogg wrote:
On Wed, 18 May 2016 17:37:52 +0100, polygonum
wrote:

On 18/05/2016 17:04, Mike Tomlinson wrote:
En el artÃ*culo , AnthonyL
escribió:

Solar could do some refilling during the day. Just cover most of
Wales with panels.



Some would say that would be an improvement.

Nah - just import it from Portugal:

http://www.theguardian.com/environme...e-energy-alone

There are loads of solar panels covering enough of Wales already.

On the same page was linked this: Solar power sets new British record
by beating coal for a day http://tinyurl.com/h2vqvox

Better start buying in stocks of candles and winter woollies!

Well since coal is now pretty much off for the summer, that's not hard


--
€œSome people like to travel by train because it combines the slowness of
a car with the cramped public exposure of €¨an airplane.€�

Dennis Miller

En el artículo , polygonum
escribió:

http://www.theguardian.com/environme...for-four-days-
straight-on-renewable-energy-alone

Yes, just seen that, thanks. Interesting.

There are loads of solar panels covering enough of Wales already

In a country where it ****es down most of the time. Must make sense to
*someone*.

I saw a solar panel installation a couple days ago. On the gable end of
a house. Pointing roughly north-east. With the gable end of the
adjacent house about 6m away.

The installers must be laughing all the way to the bank. I'll take a
pic next time I'm in the area.

--
(\_/)
(='.'=) Windows 10: less of an OS, more of a drive-by mugging.
(")_(") -- "Esme" on el Reg

En el artículo , Chris Hogg
escribió:

Better start buying in stocks of candles and winter woollies!

Better still: emigrate to somewhere warm and sunny, like I did.

--
(\_/)
(='.'=) Windows 10: less of an OS, more of a drive-by mugging.
(")_(") -- "Esme" on el Reg

On 18/05/16 18:24, Chris Hogg wrote:
On Wed, 18 May 2016 18:06:54 +0100, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

On 18/05/16 17:17, Chris Hogg wrote:
On Wed, 18 May 2016 13:59:31 +0100, Chris Hogg wrote:

On Wed, 18 May 2016 11:45:44 GMT, lid (AnthonyL)
wrote:

Out of curiosity, anyone calculate how many panels
would be needed to lift one ton(ne) in say 6hrs of average light?

To make that question sensible, you'd need to specify the height
you're lifting it to.

Here's a calculation (stepwise, for my benefit, and to allow it to be
torn to shreds by those who can do it better, as I don't believe the
result!).

The upper lake at Dinorwig is a little over 500 metres above the lower
lake, so I'll assume a height of 500 metres.

1 tonne exerts 9806 Newtons of force.

The work done raising 1 tonne by 500 metres is 9806x500 = 4903000
Newton-metres.

A Joule is 1 Newton-metre, so the work done raising 1 tonne by 500
metres is 4903000 Joules.

This is achieved in 6 hrs, or 6x60x60 = 21600 seconds.

Units of power are Joules per second

So the power required is 4903000/21600 = 227 Joules per second.

A Joule per second is a Watt.

So the power required to raise 1 tonne by 500 metres in 6 hours is 227
Watts.

AIUI a typical domestic solar panel delivers 260 Watts at full blast.

So 1 panel should do it, with a little to spare.

I find that hard to believe! Where have I gone wrong?

Seems OK to me. 100 meters an hour is 27mm or a little over an inch a
second.

A human being with a tackle can lift a tonne that fast easy.

In fact an Irish Navvy could shovel and lift 30 tonnes a day back in the
50's.

I think you are encountering the true meaning of 'energy density' - that
a tonne of water up a hill is actually not really that interesting -
maybe a couple of Kwh at best.

Thanks for the confirmation. Reversing the calculation, as it were,
Dinorwig dumps 60 tonnes per second through its turbines, from a head
of 500 metres and for a period of 6 hours. If 1 tonne moving through
500 metres in 6 hours is equivalent to 1 solar panel, Dinorwig is
equivalent to 60x21600 solar panels, i.e. 1,296,000 panels. I'll leave
it to AnthonyL to work out how much of Wales that would cover!

Actually insolation is on average about 100W/sq meter and a solar panel
maybe gets to 25% efficiency, so 25W/sq meter on average. Obviously
midsummer midday peaks are considerably higher - 10 x that.

IIRC Dinorwig can peak at 2GW, but not for 6h, thats less than a GW at
that level.

At 4 sq meters per hundred watts, that's 40 sq meters for a killer-watt
or 40 sq km for a gigawatt?

--
New Socialism consists essentially in being seen to have your heart in
the right place whilst your head is in the clouds and your hand is in
someone else's pocket.

On 18/05/2016 18:35, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

At 4 sq meters per hundred watts, that's 40 sq meters for a killer-watt
or 40 sq km for a gigawatt?

Covering that much land by panels could be expected to have a
significant impact on the shaded land.

Today I noticed a fairly substantial commercial building roof covered by
panels. (A typical industrial estate cheap warehouse/factory/B&Q type of
construction.) Strikes me that, so long as the panels are going to be
deployed, those roofs are probably the most appropriate locations.
Rather than a few square metres on each of hundreds or thousands of
houses. Or covering up more land. Also might help to reduce maximum
temperature in the building.

--
Rod

On Wed, 18 May 2016 09:29:04 +0100, Chris Hogg wrote:

On Wed, 18 May 2016 09:13:12 +0100 (BST), "Dave Liquorice"
wrote:

On 16 May 2016 21:31:51 GMT, Huge wrote:

What's even more amazing is that with the press of a button
marked
"MAXGEN"[1], it can go from zero to full output in 15 seconds.

I think that's from in sync spinning in air, rather than
stationary.

They keep one turbine spinning all the time in order to provide
"instant" output. I think it's rather less that 15 seconds, too.

The information about the various start times seems to have disappeared
from the web. A turbine on line and using water I should imagine can go
from "tickover" to full chat as fast as the inlet valve can open. As you
say I'd expect rather less than 15 seconds.

The 10 seconds figure I mentioned related to the time it took to open or
close the giant penstock gate valve(s) feeding the turbines.


I wonder how many tonnes of water per second each turbine uses at
maximum output?

At maximum flow to the turbine hall is 60 cu.m/sec. There are 6
turbines, so 10 cu.m/sec. i.e. 10 tonnes/sec. each
http://tinyurl.com/4nj8a9

I get the impression that they can keep them spinning with compressed
air, which reduces the time to full output compared with a standing
start. But whether all of them spin that way, all of the time, I don't
know.

They don't use compressed air to keep them spinning whenever they need
them in 'Hot Standby' running in air. The turbines use the generator as a
motor to maintain synchronous speed so all that is required to change
from motoring mode to generator mode is basically just a matter of
"Turning on the tap" and adjusting the excitation current to raise the
stator output voltage.

This rather neatly avoids the need to synchronise from a standing start
but at a cost of 4MW per turbine. I'm afraid I can't recall whether all
six turbine sets had this hot standby running in air capability or not.
One thing is for certain, the 90MW turbine sets at Ffestiniog had no such
hot standby feature, hence their much longer 60 seconds run up time.

--
Johnny B Good

En el artículo , Chris Hogg
escribió:

I'll leave
it to AnthonyL to work out how much of Wales that would cover!

I think the term would be "a metric ****load".

--
(\_/)
(='.'=) Windows 10: less of an OS, more of a drive-by mugging.
(")_(") -- "Esme" on el Reg

On 5/18/2016 1:56 PM, Chris Hogg wrote:
On Wed, 18 May 2016 20:47:16 +1000, "Rod Speed"


Unless of course you know better than the people that run the scheme,
in which case you should tell them they've got it wrong.

Thanks Chris for saving me the trouble of responding!

On 5/17/2016 7:53 PM, michael adams wrote:
"Mike Tomlinson" wrote in message
...

"This is because the two reservoirs are linked by one of Britain's biggest
post-war industrial projects: the Dinorwig pumped storage power station,
hidden within this mountain. It is effectively a monster battery: power is
stored by pumping water from Llyn Peris to Marchlyn Mawr at night, then
generated by letting it flow back down at times of peak demand"

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/05...tric_mountain/



You do realise of course that that project was initiated by Lefty**** Socialists ?


It was a license to print money. Which of course is why it was snapped
up by Americans when it was flogged off.

En el artículo , Chris Hogg
escribió:

Unless of course you know better than the people that run the scheme,
in which case you should tell them they've got it wrong.



--
(\_/)
(='.'=) Windows 10: less of an OS, more of a drive-by mugging.
(")_(") -- "Esme" on el Reg

En el artículo , Huge
escribió:

Except it was owned by Mitsui when I went round.

I thought that was a made-up jap-sounding brand name stuck on awful hi-
fi crap sold in the likes of Dixons and Currys in the '80s.

--
(\_/)
(='.'=) Windows 10: less of an OS, more of a drive-by mugging.
(")_(") -- "Esme" on el Reg

"Chris Hogg" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 18 May 2016 20:47:16 +1000, "Rod Speed"
wrote:



"Chris Hogg" wrote in message
. ..
On Wed, 18 May 2016 07:38:48 +1000, "Rod Speed"
wrote:

newshound wrote
Brian Gaff wrote

Can there be anyone who did not already know about this?I remember
when
it was being built and all the hype surrounding it. Is it still the
only
one?

I think it was the world's biggest when it was being built,

Nothing like it, the Snowy Scheme always left it
for dead and was done a long time before it too.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snowy_...Power_stations

although now US and China have larger. The first one to be comparable
in
capacity to a contemporary power station.

That's wrong too.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...power_stations

That's a misleading list because the Snowy system is lots of separate
pumped
storage hydro power stations all part of the one overall system.

According to your first Wiki link, the bulk of the Snowy Mountain
scheme is simple hydro.

The list may imply that but the reality is very different.

Only one pumping station is mentioned, confirmed as the
Tumut-3 pumped storage system in your second Wiki link.

That is because the complex series of storages isnt
just a set of turbines and pumps for each storage.

It is rated at 1500 MW and was completed in 1974

That was the last in the Snowy system.

http://tinyurl.com/hc7cqqv (Dinorwig 1730 MW, duration 6 hrs,
completed 1984). Marchlyn Mawr, the Dinorwig reservoir, has a
capacity of 9.2 million cubic metres http://tinyurl.com/zvx7lbb
http://tinyurl.com/hr8qwlx , whereas the reservoir at Talbingo
that feeds Tumut-3 has a capacity of 920 million cubic metres
http://tinyurl.com/z8ljova http://tinyurl.com/haonl9r about 100 times
the capacity of Marchlyn_Mawr (although whether all of this is
available to Tumut-3 isn't stated).

It is. And so is all the other storage too.

It is indeed a complex system, but only one section of it can be
described as pumped storage, the power station at Tumut-3,

Wrong. That isnt the only pump in the system.

on that part of the system which moves water north
from Lake Eucumbene and the Tooma reservoir into
the Tumut river and then on into the Murrumbidgee
http://tinyurl.com/jeclz69 , http://tinyurl.com/jd2n49t
and in particular this quote "The Snowy Mountains Scheme
has one pumping station at Jindabyne

Which is in fact involved in the fact that the entire
Snowy scheme is a pumped storage system. It doesn't
have to have that pump at one of the power stations
to be part of the pump storage facility because all
those dams are interlinked.

and a pump storage facility at Tumut 3 Power
Station" from http://tinyurl.com/jgsqrpm .

Unless of course you know better than the people that run the scheme,
in which case you should tell them they've got it wrong.

What they say there is no different to what I said.

You are the one that doesn't understand what they were saying.

The entire system is a pump storage system because all
the dams are interconnected and it is only the oldest
dam, Burrinjuck, which has no way to move the water
that has got there back into the other dams.

On 18/05/2016 22:24, Mike Tomlinson wrote:
En el artículo , Huge
escribió:

Except it was owned by Mitsui when I went round.

I thought that was a made-up jap-sounding brand name stuck on awful hi-
fi crap sold in the likes of Dixons and Currys in the '80s.

My Matsui video still appears to be working :-) (I'd have not bought
hi-fi with that brand though).

polygonum wrote
The Natural Philosopher wrote

At 4 sq meters per hundred watts, that's 40 sq meters for a killer-watt
or 40 sq km for a gigawatt?

Covering that much land by panels could be expected to have a significant
impact on the shaded land.

No problem, they dont do anything useful with it anyway in Wales.

Today I noticed a fairly substantial commercial building roof covered by
panels. (A typical industrial estate cheap warehouse/factory/B&Q type of
construction.) Strikes me that, so long as the panels are going to be
deployed, those roofs are probably the most appropriate locations. Rather
than a few square metres on each of hundreds or thousands of houses. Or
covering up more land. Also might help to reduce maximum temperature in
the building.

"newshound" wrote in message
o.uk...
On 5/18/2016 1:56 PM, Chris Hogg wrote:
On Wed, 18 May 2016 20:47:16 +1000, "Rod Speed"


Unless of course you know better than the people that run the scheme,
in which case you should tell them they've got it wrong.

Thanks Chris for saving me the trouble of responding!

You both got it wrong.

Mike Tomlinson wrote:

I saw a solar panel installation a couple days ago. On the gable end of
a house. Pointing roughly north-east. With the gable end of the
adjacent house about 6m away.

Like this one?

http://www.flickr.com/photos/jim_eas...ok/5937685450/

Chris
--
Chris J Dixon Nottingham UK


Plant amazing Acers.

En el artículo , Chris J
Dixon escribió:

Like this one?

http://www.flickr.com/photos/jim_eas...ok/5937685450/

Yes, very much like that. I'm passing that way in the next couple of
days, so will take a pic.

--
(\_/)
(='.'=) Windows 10: less of an OS, more of a drive-by mugging.
(")_(") -- "Esme" on el Reg