Tis the time of year for ye visitation of steam and diesel traction displays. Looking some up on line, it occurred to me that the average lawn mower has more oomph than that lot had in the goode olde daies.

How much would be done around a farm with 5 horse power?
I just realised whilst writing this, that in the days of horse power, 5-Hp was quite a tidy investment.

I can remember a small-hold neighbour, now long dead, who had a petrol starting TVO tractor some 35 years ago. Even then it was a relic. But he also used a Victorian looking hand pump to get water out of his well.

Any idea how much horse power that old TVO represented?

In article ,
Weatherlawyer writes
Tis the time of year for ye visitation of steam and diesel traction
displays. Looking some up on line, it occurred to me that the average
lawn mower has more oomph than that lot had in the goode olde daies.

How much would be done around a farm with 5 horse power?
I just realised whilst writing this, that in the days of horse power,
5-Hp was quite a tidy investment.

I can remember a small-hold neighbour, now long dead, who had a petrol
starting TVO tractor some 35 years ago. Even then it was a relic. But
he also used a Victorian looking hand pump to get water out of his well.

Any idea how much horse power that old TVO represented?
Which one? As far as I can tell the Fordson Major was about 40 whereas
the little grey Fergie was about 28.
--
bert

In message ,
Weatherlawyer writes
Tis the time of year for ye visitation of steam and diesel traction
displays. Looking some up on line, it occurred to me that the average
lawn mower has more oomph than that lot had in the goode olde daies.

How much would be done around a farm with 5 horse power?
I just realised whilst writing this, that in the days of horse power,
5-Hp was quite a tidy investment.

I can remember a small-hold neighbour, now long dead, who had a petrol
starting TVO tractor some 35 years ago. Even then it was a relic. But
he also used a Victorian looking hand pump to get water out of his well.

Any idea how much horse power that old TVO represented?

The Ferguson TE 20 up to 1956 was 20HP, after that they were fitted with
the standard engine and gave 28HP.

The one we had in the late 60's had the same stroke and bore as the
Standard Vanguard engine fitted in the Triumph TR2 (I think).

--
Tim Lamb

On Saturday, 30 April 2016 21:18:44 UTC+1, bert wrote:
In article ,
Weatherlawyer writes
Tis the time of year for ye visitation of steam and diesel traction
displays. Looking some up on line, it occurred to me that the average
lawn mower has more oomph than that lot had in the goode olde daies.

How much would be done around a farm with 5 horse power?
I just realised whilst writing this, that in the days of horse power,
5-Hp was quite a tidy investment.

I can remember a small-hold neighbour, now long dead, who had a petrol
starting TVO tractor some 35 years ago. Even then it was a relic. But
he also used a Victorian looking hand pump to get water out of his well.

Any idea how much horse power that old TVO represented?
Which one? As far as I can tell the Fordson Major was about 40 whereas
the little grey Fergie was about 28.

I have no idea what it was but vaguely recall it as grey. But this was too long ago to be honest. The mind recalls what the memory slips into adjacent spaces. When you are busy trying to pay for your daily bread, what turns out to be even more valuable years later, is too far off to go back and fetch.

On Sat, 30 Apr 2016 21:10:21 +0100, bert wrote:


I can remember a small-hold neighbour, now long dead, who had a petrol
starting TVO tractor some 35 years ago. Even then it was a relic. But
he also used a Victorian looking hand pump to get water out of his well.

Any idea how much horse power that old TVO represented?
Which one? As far as I can tell the Fordson Major was about 40 whereas
the little grey Fergie was about 28.

Our 1941 built Fordson N type was 27 BHP, used until 1971,Dad replaced
it with a grey Fergie but that was a Diesel version.
Dad could not hand crank the Fordson due to a shoulder injury so I
started before setting off to school in the morning and it was then
left running all day,that was normal practise anyway as letting one
partially cool made it a (even More of) sod to start being too hot for
petrol and too cool for TVO.
As I was about to leave home the purchase of a tractor with an
electric start was required and with TVO supply about to cease it made
sense to go for a diesel even though TVO Fergies were being sold
cheap. You could/can still run TVO tractors but on one of the grades
of heating oil sometimes mixed with paraffin with various opinions on
what mix is best.

G.Harman

In article ,
Tim Lamb wrote:
The Ferguson TE 20 up to 1956 was 20HP, after that they were fitted with
the standard engine and gave 28HP.

The one we had in the late 60's had the same stroke and bore as the
Standard Vanguard engine fitted in the Triumph TR2 (I think).

Think it's actually the other way round. Harry Ferguson designed the
engine later used by Standard Triumph. Of course it came in a variety of
sizes and power outputs.

--
*Why is it considered necessary to screw down the lid of a coffin?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In message ,
Weatherlawyer writes
On Saturday, 30 April 2016 21:18:44 UTC+1, bert wrote:
In article ,
Weatherlawyer writes
Tis the time of year for ye visitation of steam and diesel traction
displays. Looking some up on line, it occurred to me that the average
lawn mower has more oomph than that lot had in the goode olde daies.

How much would be done around a farm with 5 horse power?
I just realised whilst writing this, that in the days of horse power,
5-Hp was quite a tidy investment.

I can remember a small-hold neighbour, now long dead, who had a petrol
starting TVO tractor some 35 years ago. Even then it was a relic. But
he also used a Victorian looking hand pump to get water out of his well.

Any idea how much horse power that old TVO represented?
Which one? As far as I can tell the Fordson Major was about 40 whereas
the little grey Fergie was about 28.

I have no idea what it was but vaguely recall it as grey. But this was
too long ago to be honest. The mind recalls what the memory slips into
adjacent spaces. When you are busy trying to pay for your daily bread,
what turns out to be even more valuable years later, is too far off to
go back and fetch.

Sooted plugs was a big problem for our little grey fergie. Farms were
changing over to diesel and a small delivery of TVO was often
contaminated with diesel left in the delivery lorry pipe.



--
Tim Lamb

"Dave Plowman (News)" Wrote in message:
In article ,
Tim Lamb wrote:
The Ferguson TE 20 up to 1956 was 20HP, after that they were fitted with
the standard engine and gave 28HP.

The one we had in the late 60's had the same stroke and bore as the
Standard Vanguard engine fitted in the Triumph TR2 (I think).

Think it's actually the other way round. Harry Ferguson designed the
engine later used by Standard Triumph. Of course it came in a variety of
sizes and power outputs.


Er no.

"Earlier versions used an imported American engine (the 1966cc
Continental Z-120) but once the 2088 cc unit being developed for
the Standard Vanguard car became available in September 1947 this
was fitted instead, exclusively so from July 1948."

--
Jim K


----Android NewsGroup Reader----
http://usenet.sinaapp.com/

In article ,
writes
On Sat, 30 Apr 2016 21:10:21 +0100, bert wrote:


I can remember a small-hold neighbour, now long dead, who had a petrol
starting TVO tractor some 35 years ago. Even then it was a relic. But
he also used a Victorian looking hand pump to get water out of his well.

Any idea how much horse power that old TVO represented?
Which one? As far as I can tell the Fordson Major was about 40 whereas
the little grey Fergie was about 28.

Our 1941 built Fordson N type was 27 BHP, used until 1971,Dad replaced
it with a grey Fergie but that was a Diesel version.
Didn't they fit a 3 cylinder Perkins?
Dad could not hand crank the Fordson due to a shoulder injury so I
started before setting off to school in the morning and it was then
left running all day,that was normal practise anyway as letting one
partially cool made it a (even More of) sod to start being too hot for
petrol and too cool for TVO.
As I was about to leave home the purchase of a tractor with an
electric start was required and with TVO supply about to cease it made
sense to go for a diesel even though TVO Fergies were being sold
cheap. You could/can still run TVO tractors but on one of the grades
of heating oil sometimes mixed with paraffin with various opinions on
what mix is best.

G.Harman

--
bert

In article ,
jim k wrote:
Think it's actually the other way round. Harry Ferguson designed the
engine later used by Standard Triumph. Of course it came in a variety of
sizes and power outputs.


Er no.

"Earlier versions used an imported American engine (the 1966cc
Continental Z-120) but once the 2088 cc unit being developed for
the Standard Vanguard car became available in September 1947 this
was fitted instead, exclusively so from July 1948."

Bit of a chicken and egg situation. But given Harry Ferguson designed the
engine, it would be safe to assume he intended it for both. But the design
- wet liners - was more what you'd expect for a commercial unit than for a
mid price car. Ie, designed to last rather longer than was common for cars
of the day.

--
*If I agreed with you, we'd both be wrong.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Sunday, 1 May 2016 00:27:09 UTC+1, wrote:
On Sat, 30 Apr 2016 21:10:21 +0100, bert wrote:


I can remember a small-hold neighbour, now long dead, who had a petrol
starting TVO tractor some 35 years ago. Even then it was a relic. But
he also used a Victorian looking hand pump to get water out of his well..

Any idea how much horse power that old TVO represented?
Which one? As far as I can tell the Fordson Major was about 40 whereas
the little grey Fergie was about 28.

Our 1941 built Fordson N type was 27 BHP, used until 1971,Dad replaced
it with a grey Fergie but that was a Diesel version.
Dad could not hand crank the Fordson due to a shoulder injury so I
started before setting off to school in the morning and it was then
left running all day,that was normal practise anyway as letting one
partially cool made it a (even More of) sod to start being too hot for
petrol and too cool for TVO.
As I was about to leave home the purchase of a tractor with an
electric start was required and with TVO supply about to cease it made
sense to go for a diesel even though TVO Fergies were being sold
cheap. You could/can still run TVO tractors but on one of the grades
of heating oil sometimes mixed with paraffin with various opinions on
what mix is best.

I thought TVO was paraffin:

As a substitute for petrol, TVO was developed. Paraffin (kerosene) was commonly used as a domestic heating fuel and was untaxed. Paraffin has an octane rating of zero and would damage an engine built for petrol. The manufacture of paraffin involves the removal of aromatic hydrocarbons from what is now sold as heating oil. These aromatics have an octane rating, so adding some of that otherwise waste product material back in a controlled manner into paraffin gave TVO. The resulting octane rating of TVO was somewhere between 55 and 70.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tractor_vaporising_oil

Presumably these were side valved engines with very low compression ratios and the addition of a little petrol would activate modern paraffin for them?

It sounds like the petrol engine only got a foothold on farms following Fordson's sweep into that territory with converted automobile parts?

The more expensive diesel engine would be capable of doing much more work for longer, something that I doubt compared when considering the initial outlay on small farms especially in the 1930's.

From what I recall of the prewar Fordson, it was extremely well thought out with the fuel tank (for instance) incorporated in the bodywork above the engine. Typical Henry Ford thinking.

On Saturday, 30 April 2016 18:34:35 UTC+1, Weatherlawyer wrote:
Tis the time of year for ye visitation of steam and diesel traction displays. Looking some up on line, it occurred to me that the average lawn mower has more oomph than that lot had in the goode olde daies.

How much would be done around a farm with 5 horse power?
I just realised whilst writing this, that in the days of horse power, 5-Hp was quite a tidy investment.

I can remember a small-hold neighbour, now long dead, who had a petrol starting TVO tractor some 35 years ago. Even then it was a relic. But he also used a Victorian looking hand pump to get water out of his well.

Any idea how much horse power that old TVO represented?

Well now that we have all set off down to the good old days, batons in hand, how about soem throughput for the OP?

How much of a game changer was the 5 (or less) horsepower engine when they started to get a grip on farms?

Apparently the 5-Hp was quite a substantial motor, for its time.
Anyone have any real idea?

Something from the Victorian peasant's Space Age. How the Wright engine worked:

The engine had no fuel pump, carburettor, or spark plugs. Nor did it have a throttle. Yet the simple motor produced 12 horsepower, an acceptable margin above the Wrights' minimum requirement of 8 horsepower. Gasoline was gravity fed from a small quart-and-a-half tank mounted on a strut below the upper wing. The gasoline entered a shallow chamber next to the cylinders and mixed with the incoming air. Heat from the crankcase vaporized the fuel-air mixture, causing it to pass through the intake manifold into the cylinders.

Ignition was produced by opening and closing two contact breaker points in the combustion chamber of each cylinder via a camshaft. The initial spark for starting the engine was generated with a coil and four dry-cell batteries, not carried on the air-plane. A low-tension magneto driven by a 20-pound flywheel supplied electric current while the engine was running.

http://airandspace.si.edu/exhibition...903/engine.cfm

On Sunday, 1 May 2016 00:27:09 UTC+1, wrote:
On Sat, 30 Apr 2016 21:10:21 +0100, bert wrote:


I can remember a small-hold neighbour, now long dead, who had a petrol
starting TVO tractor some 35 years ago. Even then it was a relic. But
he also used a Victorian looking hand pump to get water out of his well.

Any idea how much horse power that old TVO represented?
Which one? As far as I can tell the Fordson Major was about 40 whereas
the little grey Fergie was about 28.

Our 1941 built Fordson N type was 27 BHP, used until 1971,Dad replaced
it with a grey Fergie but that was a Diesel version.
Dad could not hand crank the Fordson due to a shoulder injury so I
started before setting off to school in the morning and it was then
left running all day,that was normal practise anyway as letting one
partially cool made it a (even More of) sod to start being too hot for
petrol and too cool for TVO.
As I was about to leave home the purchase of a tractor with an
electric start was required and with TVO supply about to cease it made
sense to go for a diesel even though TVO Fergies were being sold
cheap. You could/can still run TVO tractors but on one of the grades
of heating oil sometimes mixed with paraffin with various opinions on
what mix is best.

Imagine storing a shed full of them for half a lifetime. What an investment for your children.

In article ,
jim k wrote:
"Dave Plowman (News)" Wrote in message:
In article ,
jim k wrote:
Think it's actually the other way round. Harry Ferguson designed the
engine later used by Standard Triumph. Of course it came in a variety of
sizes and power outputs.


Er no.

"Earlier versions used an imported American engine (the 1966cc
Continental Z-120) but once the 2088 cc unit being developed for
the Standard Vanguard car became available in September 1947 this
was fitted instead, exclusively so from July 1948."

Bit of a chicken and egg situation. But given Harry Ferguson designed
the engine, it would be safe to assume he intended it for both. But
the design - wet liners - was more what you'd expect for a commercial
unit than for a mid price car. Ie, designed to last rather longer than
was common for cars of the day.


But I don't recall ever seeing Ferguson credited with designing the
seperate body "Standard Motor Co"'s engine?

I'm talking about the engine which powered the Vanguard and subsequent
Triumph TRs.

--
*Laugh alone and the world thinks you're an idiot.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Dave Plowman (News)" Wrote in message:
In article ,
jim k wrote:
Think it's actually the other way round. Harry Ferguson designed the
engine later used by Standard Triumph. Of course it came in a variety of
sizes and power outputs.


Er no.

"Earlier versions used an imported American engine (the 1966cc
Continental Z-120) but once the 2088 cc unit being developed for
the Standard Vanguard car became available in September 1947 this
was fitted instead, exclusively so from July 1948."

Bit of a chicken and egg situation. But given Harry Ferguson designed the
engine, it would be safe to assume he intended it for both. But the design
- wet liners - was more what you'd expect for a commercial unit than for a
mid price car. Ie, designed to last rather longer than was common for cars
of the day.


But I don't recall ever seeing Ferguson credited with designing
the seperate body "Standard Motor Co"'s engine?

--
Jim K


----Android NewsGroup Reader----
http://usenet.sinaapp.com/

On Sun, 01 May 2016 11:06:40 +0100, bert wrote:

In article ,
writes
On Sat, 30 Apr 2016 21:10:21 +0100, bert wrote:


I can remember a small-hold neighbour, now long dead, who had a petrol
starting TVO tractor some 35 years ago. Even then it was a relic. But
he also used a Victorian looking hand pump to get water out of his
well.

Any idea how much horse power that old TVO represented?
Which one? As far as I can tell the Fordson Major was about 40 whereas
the little grey Fergie was about 28.

Our 1941 built Fordson N type was 27 BHP, used until 1971,Dad replaced
it with a grey Fergie but that was a Diesel version.
Didn't they fit a 3 cylinder Perkins?

Not sure about that but ISTR that was fitted in Allis tractors and
combines

"Dave Plowman (News)" Wrote in message:
In article ,
jim k wrote:
"Dave Plowman (News)" Wrote in message:
In article ,
jim k wrote:
Think it's actually the other way round. Harry Ferguson designed the
engine later used by Standard Triumph. Of course it came in a variety of
sizes and power outputs.


Er no.

"Earlier versions used an imported American engine (the 1966cc
Continental Z-120) but once the 2088 cc unit being developed for
the Standard Vanguard car became available in September 1947 this
was fitted instead, exclusively so from July 1948."

Bit of a chicken and egg situation. But given Harry Ferguson designed
the engine, it would be safe to assume he intended it for both. But
the design - wet liners - was more what you'd expect for a commercial
unit than for a mid price car. Ie, designed to last rather longer than
was common for cars of the day.


But I don't recall ever seeing Ferguson credited with designing the
seperate body "Standard Motor Co"'s engine?

I'm talking about the engine which powered the Vanguard and subsequent
Triumph TRs.


Er... aren't we all?

IIRC those units are direct descendents of the engine *also* used
in Fergusons tractor, from the Standard Motor Co.

Early on Ferguson had a the famous "handshake deal" with Ford Sr
but having been shafted by Ford Jr needed a factory to
manufacture in and a suitable engine to bung in it. Both he found
with Standard Motor Co?

Where's Ferguson credited with designing any relevant engine?

--
Jim K


----Android NewsGroup Reader----
http://usenet.sinaapp.com/

On Saturday, 30 April 2016 18:34:35 UTC+1, Weatherlawyer wrote:
Tis the time of year for ye visitation of steam and diesel traction displays. Looking some up on line, it occurred to me that the average lawn mower has more oomph than that lot had in the goode olde daies.

How much would be done around a farm with 5 horse power?
I just realised whilst writing this, that in the days of horse power, 5-Hp was quite a tidy investment.

I can remember a small-hold neighbour, now long dead, who had a petrol starting TVO tractor some 35 years ago. Even then it was a relic. But he also used a Victorian looking hand pump to get water out of his well.

Any idea how much horse power that old TVO represented?

Welland Show is pretty good if you like that sort of thing.
http://www.wellandsteamrally.co.uk/

On Sun, 1 May 2016 04:47:36 -0700 (PDT), Weatherlawyer
wrote:


Any idea how much horse power that old TVO represented?

Well now that we have all set off down to the good old days, batons in hand, how about soem throughput for the OP?

How much of a game changer was the 5 (or less) horsepower engine when they started to get a grip on farms?

Apparently the 5-Hp was quite a substantial motor, for its time.
Anyone have any real idea?

Something from the Victorian peasant's Space Age. How the Wright engine worked:


Small IC engines made a huge difference from the 1900's but especially
after so after WW1 but not in tractor form*. Firms such as Lister and
Stuart Turner made 1000's that powered pumps, generators,sawbenches,
milking machines and all sorts of other machinery a situation that was
still common well into the 1960's until the majority of farms had
access to mains electric under the post WW2 rural electrification
scheme. Some will no doubt still be in use in some really. remote
places .
* There were some home produced makes of two wheeled walk behind
tractors that now days are more associated with the so called third
world , Trusty was one well known make.
http://www.vhgmc.co.uk/survivors/tru...ctor-register/

G.Harman

wrote in message ...

On Sun, 1 May 2016 04:47:36 -0700 (PDT), Weatherlawyer
wrote:


Any idea how much horse power that old TVO represented?

Well now that we have all set off down to the good old days, batons in
hand, how about soem throughput for the OP?

How much of a game changer was the 5 (or less) horsepower engine when they
started to get a grip on farms?

Apparently the 5-Hp was quite a substantial motor, for its time.
Anyone have any real idea?

Something from the Victorian peasant's Space Age. How the Wright engine
worked:


Small IC engines made a huge difference from the 1900's but especially
after so after WW1 but not in tractor form*. Firms such as Lister and
Stuart Turner made 1000's that powered pumps, generators,sawbenches,
milking machines and all sorts of other machinery a situation that was
still common well into the 1960's until the majority of farms had
access to mains electric under the post WW2 rural electrification
scheme. Some will no doubt still be in use in some really. remote
places .
* There were some home produced makes of two wheeled walk behind
tractors that now days are more associated with the so called third
world , Trusty was one well known make.
http://www.vhgmc.co.uk/survivors/tru...ctor-register/

G.Harman

The 'Grips' on the wheels in the first illustration look to my mind to be
pointing the wrong way to 'get a grip' ???

Andrew

wrote in message
...
On Sun, 1 May 2016 04:47:36 -0700 (PDT), Weatherlawyer
wrote:


Any idea how much horse power that old TVO represented?

Well now that we have all set off down to the good old days, batons in
hand, how about soem throughput for the OP?

How much of a game changer was the 5 (or less) horsepower engine when they
started to get a grip on farms?

Apparently the 5-Hp was quite a substantial motor, for its time.
Anyone have any real idea?

Something from the Victorian peasant's Space Age. How the Wright engine
worked:


Small IC engines made a huge difference from the 1900's but especially
after so after WW1 but not in tractor form*. Firms such as Lister and
Stuart Turner made 1000's that powered pumps, generators,sawbenches,
milking machines and all sorts of other machinery

And the striking thing is how much bigger and more noisy they were
than modern electric equivalents. One thing that struck me at one of
those vintage machinery field days was one that was used to pump
the whey from a diary to the pigs, as bigger than a modern washing
machine and a hell of a lot more noisy than a modern electric pump.

a situation that was still common well into the 1960's until
the majority of farms had access to mains electric under
the post WW2 rural electrification scheme. Some will
no doubt still be in use in some really. remote places .

* There were some home produced makes of two wheeled
walk behind tractors that now days are more associated with
the so called third world , Trusty was one well known make.
http://www.vhgmc.co.uk/survivors/tru...ctor-register/

On Sunday, 1 May 2016 18:38:25 UTC+1, wrote:
On Sun, 1 May 2016 04:47:36 -0700 (PDT), Weatherlawyer
wrote:


Any idea how much horse power that old TVO represented?

Well now that we have all set off down to the good old days, batons in hand, how about soem throughput for the OP?

How much of a game changer was the 5 (or less) horsepower engine when they started to get a grip on farms?

Apparently the 5-Hp was quite a substantial motor, for its time.
Anyone have any real idea?

Something from the Victorian peasant's Space Age. How the Wright engine worked:


Small IC engines made a huge difference from the 1900's but especially
after so after WW1 but not in tractor form*. Firms such as Lister and
Stuart Turner made 1000's that powered pumps, generators,sawbenches,
milking machines and all sorts of other machinery a situation that was
still common well into the 1960's until the majority of farms had
access to mains electric under the post WW2 rural electrification
scheme. Some will no doubt still be in use in some really. remote
places .
* There were some home produced makes of two wheeled walk behind
tractors that now days are more associated with the so called third
world , Trusty was one well known make.
http://www.vhgmc.co.uk/survivors/tru...ctor-register/

Ah yes it is all coming back to me how the evolution of the council yard maintenance squad replaced its kit over the decades. And to think we didn't even see it coming, most of us.

I clearly remember thos reciprocating scythes on a bif trolly between a pair of motor cycle sized wheels. Odd nobody thought of the modern motor mower. it must have been one hell of a circumlocution to the present Briggs and Stratton throw-away.

On Sunday, 1 May 2016 13:30:51 UTC+1, Weatherlawyer wrote:
On Sunday, 1 May 2016 00:27:09 UTC+1, wrote:
On Sat, 30 Apr 2016 21:10:21 +0100, bert wrote:


I can remember a small-hold neighbour, now long dead, who had a petrol
starting TVO tractor some 35 years ago. Even then it was a relic. But
he also used a Victorian looking hand pump to get water out of his well.

Any idea how much horse power that old TVO represented?
Which one? As far as I can tell the Fordson Major was about 40 whereas
the little grey Fergie was about 28.

Our 1941 built Fordson N type was 27 BHP, used until 1971,Dad replaced
it with a grey Fergie but that was a Diesel version.
Dad could not hand crank the Fordson due to a shoulder injury so I
started before setting off to school in the morning and it was then
left running all day,that was normal practise anyway as letting one
partially cool made it a (even More of) sod to start being too hot for
petrol and too cool for TVO.
As I was about to leave home the purchase of a tractor with an
electric start was required and with TVO supply about to cease it made
sense to go for a diesel even though TVO Fergies were being sold
cheap. You could/can still run TVO tractors but on one of the grades
of heating oil sometimes mixed with paraffin with various opinions on
what mix is best.

Imagine storing a shed full of them for half a lifetime. What an investment for your children.

The shed would probably the better investment!

Weatherlawyer wrote:
On Sunday, 1 May 2016 18:38:25 UTC+1, wrote:
On Sun, 1 May 2016 04:47:36 -0700 (PDT), Weatherlawyer
wrote:


Any idea how much horse power that old TVO represented?

Well now that we have all set off down to the good old days, batons in
hand, how about soem throughput for the OP?

How much of a game changer was the 5 (or less) horsepower engine when
they started to get a grip on farms?

Apparently the 5-Hp was quite a substantial motor, for its time.
Anyone have any real idea?

Something from the Victorian peasant's Space Age. How the Wright engine worked:


Small IC engines made a huge difference from the 1900's but especially
after so after WW1 but not in tractor form*. Firms such as Lister and
Stuart Turner made 1000's that powered pumps, generators,sawbenches,
milking machines and all sorts of other machinery a situation that was
still common well into the 1960's until the majority of farms had
access to mains electric under the post WW2 rural electrification
scheme. Some will no doubt still be in use in some really. remote
places .
* There were some home produced makes of two wheeled walk behind
tractors that now days are more associated with the so called third
world , Trusty was one well known make.
http://www.vhgmc.co.uk/survivors/tru...ctor-register/

Ah yes it is all coming back to me how the evolution of the council yard
maintenance squad replaced its kit over the decades. And to think we
didn't even see it coming, most of us.

I clearly remember thos reciprocating scythes on a bif trolly between a
pair of motor cycle sized wheels. Odd nobody thought of the modern motor
mower. it must have been one hell of a circumlocution to the present
Briggs and Stratton throw-away.



Allen scythe?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allen_Scythe

--
--
Trolls and troll feeders go in my killfile

On 01/05/2016 20:55, Weatherlawyer wrote:
I clearly remember thos reciprocating scythes on a bif trolly between a pair of motor cycle sized wheels. Odd nobody thought of the modern motor mower. it must have been one hell of a circumlocution to the present Briggs and Stratton throw-away.

You mean an Allen Scythe?

We've got something a lot like it at our sailing club. No way will an
ordinary mower cut Norfolk Reed 8 feet high. This thing just chops it
off at the ankles.

Andy

On Sunday, 1 May 2016 16:18:38 UTC+1, harry wrote:
On Saturday, 30 April 2016 18:34:35 UTC+1, Weatherlawyer wrote:
Tis the time of year for ye visitation of steam and diesel traction displays. Looking some up on line, it occurred to me that the average lawn mower has more oomph than that lot had in the goode olde daies.

How much would be done around a farm with 5 horse power?
I just realised whilst writing this, that in the days of horse power, 5-Hp was quite a tidy investment.

I can remember a small-hold neighbour, now long dead, who had a petrol starting TVO tractor some 35 years ago. Even then it was a relic. But he also used a Victorian looking hand pump to get water out of his well.

Any idea how much horse power that old TVO represented?

Welland Show is pretty good if you like that sort of thing.
http://www.wellandsteamrally.co.uk/

WTF do you mean if?
What's the matter with you head?
Don't you?

On Sat, 30 Apr 2016 10:34:32 -0700 (PDT)
Weatherlawyer wrote:

Tis the time of year for ye visitation of steam and diesel traction
displays. Looking some up on line, it occurred to me that the average
lawn mower has more oomph than that lot had in the goode olde daies.

How much would be done around a farm with 5 horse power?
I just realised whilst writing this, that in the days of horse power,
5-Hp was quite a tidy investment.

I can remember a small-hold neighbour, now long dead, who had a
petrol starting TVO tractor some 35 years ago. Even then it was a
relic. But he also used a Victorian looking hand pump to get water
out of his well.

Any idea how much horse power that old TVO represented?

Try this place, in Iowa. I went to one of the Open Days back in 1978,
and there were about 100 working Traction Engines, and 500 stationary
engines in a field, it was great fun!

http://www.oldthreshers.org/

East Anglia, back in the UK, has a gathering at Henham Hall in
September.
http://www.henhamsteamrally.com/

--
Davey.

On 01/05/2016 11:06, bert wrote:

Our 1941 built Fordson N type was 27 BHP, used until 1971,Dad replaced
it with a grey Fergie but that was a Diesel version.
Didn't they fit a 3 cylinder Perkins?

The original grey fergy had a 4 cylinder petrol engine that was based
on the same engine used in Standard cars, because they made them
in the beginning (AFAIK). Later ones had 4 cylinder diesel engines.
The diesel version had an interesting starter button. You had to
press a brass plunger, on the side of the gearbox with your right
ankle, and then push the gear lever into a special position.

When Massey Harris bought the company, the later Massey Ferguson 35
and 35X had 3 a cylinder Perkins diesel engines.

On Mon, 2 May 2016 14:31:10 +0100, Andrew
wrote:

On 01/05/2016 11:06, bert wrote:

Our 1941 built Fordson N type was 27 BHP, used until 1971,Dad replaced
it with a grey Fergie but that was a Diesel version.
Didn't they fit a 3 cylinder Perkins?

The original grey fergy had a 4 cylinder petrol engine that was based
on the same engine used in Standard cars, because they made them
in the beginning (AFAIK).
It's a little more complicated than but it does depend on whether you
class the original ones built by Ford in the US as the original or the
later ones in the UK after the bust up so I'll pass on that.
Later ones had 4 cylinder diesel engines.
The diesel version had an interesting starter button. You had to
press a brass plunger, on the side of the gearbox with your right
ankle, and then push the gear lever into a special position.

The ankle start was because with one hand holding the gear lever in
the start position and hence not in gear you needed another hand to
pump the cold start pump which sprayed diesel from a small separate
tank over a heater coil in the air intake and you might still need
another hand to hold down the decompression lever.
This cold start components were made by an outside supplier called
KI-Gass who supplied similar systems to aircraft engines of the era
and some prewar cars.
I believe they made a fluid to go with the system it but in the
Ferguson tractor plain diesel was fine.The small tank only held a few
pints so on a cold day you fill it with some diesel that had been kept
in a warmer place.
Cause farmers being farmers never RTFM so the early Diesel Fergusons
got a reputation for being poor starters.
later versions used a thermostatically controlled valve which dripped
fuel onto the heater coil.
That said I can't recall ever having to use it on ours but it was kept
in a reasonably weatherproof shed alongside the cows so it never got
really cold.

G.Harman

On Sunday, 1 May 2016 11:14:34 UTC+1, bert wrote:

Didn't they fit a 3 cylinder Perkins?

Yes. Back in the late 50's, the farmers with the grey Fergies were getting them converted to the P3.144 Perkins. This was 144 cubic inches. This carried on via the Massey Ferguson 135 and subsequent models for about 30 years. It was built under licence in dozens of countries around the world.
A derivative was the F3.154 which was fitted to the Ford Dextra.

The P3 was certainly one of the most successful diesel engines ever made. Millions have been built and it is still in production.

On Sunday, May 1, 2016 at 11:14:34 AM UTC+1, bert wrote:
In article ,
writes
On Sat, 30 Apr 2016 21:10:21 +0100, bert wrote:


I can remember a small-hold neighbour, now long dead, who had a petrol
starting TVO tractor some 35 years ago. Even then it was a relic. But
he also used a Victorian looking hand pump to get water out of his well.

Any idea how much horse power that old TVO represented?
Which one? As far as I can tell the Fordson Major was about 40 whereas
the little grey Fergie was about 28.

Our 1941 built Fordson N type was 27 BHP, used until 1971,Dad replaced
it with a grey Fergie but that was a Diesel version.
Didn't they fit a 3 cylinder Perkins?
Dad could not hand crank the Fordson due to a shoulder injury so I
started before setting off to school in the morning and it was then
left running all day,that was normal practise anyway as letting one
partially cool made it a (even More of) sod to start being too hot for
petrol and too cool for TVO.
As I was about to leave home the purchase of a tractor with an
electric start was required and with TVO supply about to cease it made
sense to go for a diesel even though TVO Fergies were being sold
cheap. You could/can still run TVO tractors but on one of the grades
of heating oil sometimes mixed with paraffin with various opinions on
what mix is best.

G.Harman

--
bert

Didn't they fit a 3 cylinder Perkins?

Yes. I have one.

On Monday, May 2, 2016 at 6:17:54 PM UTC+1, jim wrote:
cryptogram Wrote in message:
On Sunday, May 1, 2016 at 11:14:34 AM UTC+1, bert wrote:
In article ,
writes
On Sat, 30 Apr 2016 21:10:21 +0100, bert wrote:


I can remember a small-hold neighbour, now long dead, who had a petrol
starting TVO tractor some 35 years ago. Even then it was a relic. But
he also used a Victorian looking hand pump to get water out of his well.

Any idea how much horse power that old TVO represented?
Which one? As far as I can tell the Fordson Major was about 40 whereas
the little grey Fergie was about 28.

Our 1941 built Fordson N type was 27 BHP, used until 1971,Dad replaced
it with a grey Fergie but that was a Diesel version.
Didn't they fit a 3 cylinder Perkins?
Dad could not hand crank the Fordson due to a shoulder injury so I
started before setting off to school in the morning and it was then
left running all day,that was normal practise anyway as letting one
partially cool made it a (even More of) sod to start being too hot for
petrol and too cool for TVO.
As I was about to leave home the purchase of a tractor with an
electric start was required and with TVO supply about to cease it made
sense to go for a diesel even though TVO Fergies were being sold
cheap. You could/can still run TVO tractors but on one of the grades
of heating oil sometimes mixed with paraffin with various opinions on
what mix is best.

G.Harman

--
bert

Didn't they fit a 3 cylinder Perkins?

Yes. I have one.


Retrofitted?
--
Jim K


----Android NewsGroup Reader----
http://usenet.sinaapp.com/

Probably. In actual fact the tractor is a Reekie conversion with a P3, extra gearbox to provide 8 + 2 speeds, short axle tubes for a narrow track and small fronts and rears. A vineyard model.

On Sunday, May 1, 2016 at 7:33:46 PM UTC+1, Andrew Mawson wrote:
wrote in message ...

On Sun, 1 May 2016 04:47:36 -0700 (PDT), Weatherlawyer
wrote:


Any idea how much horse power that old TVO represented?

Well now that we have all set off down to the good old days, batons in
hand, how about soem throughput for the OP?

How much of a game changer was the 5 (or less) horsepower engine when they
started to get a grip on farms?

Apparently the 5-Hp was quite a substantial motor, for its time.
Anyone have any real idea?

Something from the Victorian peasant's Space Age. How the Wright engine
worked:


Small IC engines made a huge difference from the 1900's but especially
after so after WW1 but not in tractor form*. Firms such as Lister and
Stuart Turner made 1000's that powered pumps, generators,sawbenches,
milking machines and all sorts of other machinery a situation that was
still common well into the 1960's until the majority of farms had
access to mains electric under the post WW2 rural electrification
scheme. Some will no doubt still be in use in some really. remote
places .
* There were some home produced makes of two wheeled walk behind
tractors that now days are more associated with the so called third
world , Trusty was one well known make.
http://www.vhgmc.co.uk/survivors/tru...ctor-register/

G.Harman

The 'Grips' on the wheels in the first illustration look to my mind to be
pointing the wrong way to 'get a grip' ???

Andrew

The V of the lugs has to point forwards at the top of the tyre to enable the self-cleaning effect. It does look 'wrong' but it's right!

cryptogram Wrote in message:
On Sunday, May 1, 2016 at 11:14:34 AM UTC+1, bert wrote:
In article ,
writes
On Sat, 30 Apr 2016 21:10:21 +0100, bert wrote:


I can remember a small-hold neighbour, now long dead, who had a petrol
starting TVO tractor some 35 years ago. Even then it was a relic. But
he also used a Victorian looking hand pump to get water out of his well.

Any idea how much horse power that old TVO represented?
Which one? As far as I can tell the Fordson Major was about 40 whereas
the little grey Fergie was about 28.

Our 1941 built Fordson N type was 27 BHP, used until 1971,Dad replaced
it with a grey Fergie but that was a Diesel version.
Didn't they fit a 3 cylinder Perkins?
Dad could not hand crank the Fordson due to a shoulder injury so I
started before setting off to school in the morning and it was then
left running all day,that was normal practise anyway as letting one
partially cool made it a (even More of) sod to start being too hot for
petrol and too cool for TVO.
As I was about to leave home the purchase of a tractor with an
electric start was required and with TVO supply about to cease it made
sense to go for a diesel even though TVO Fergies were being sold
cheap. You could/can still run TVO tractors but on one of the grades
of heating oil sometimes mixed with paraffin with various opinions on
what mix is best.

G.Harman

--
bert

Didn't they fit a 3 cylinder Perkins?

Yes. I have one.


Retrofitted?
--
Jim K


----Android NewsGroup Reader----
http://usenet.sinaapp.com/

cryptogram Wrote in message:
On Monday, May 2, 2016 at 6:17:54 PM UTC+1, jim wrote:
cryptogram Wrote in message:
On Sunday, May 1, 2016 at 11:14:34 AM UTC+1, bert wrote:
In article ,
writes
On Sat, 30 Apr 2016 21:10:21 +0100, bert wrote:


I can remember a small-hold neighbour, now long dead, who had a petrol
starting TVO tractor some 35 years ago. Even then it was a relic. But
he also used a Victorian looking hand pump to get water out of his well.

Any idea how much horse power that old TVO represented?
Which one? As far as I can tell the Fordson Major was about 40 whereas
the little grey Fergie was about 28.

Our 1941 built Fordson N type was 27 BHP, used until 1971,Dad replaced
it with a grey Fergie but that was a Diesel version.
Didn't they fit a 3 cylinder Perkins?
Dad could not hand crank the Fordson due to a shoulder injury so I
started before setting off to school in the morning and it was then
left running all day,that was normal practise anyway as letting one
partially cool made it a (even More of) sod to start being too hot for
petrol and too cool for TVO.
As I was about to leave home the purchase of a tractor with an
electric start was required and with TVO supply about to cease it made
sense to go for a diesel even though TVO Fergies were being sold
cheap. You could/can still run TVO tractors but on one of the grades
of heating oil sometimes mixed with paraffin with various opinions on
what mix is best.

G.Harman

--
bert

Didn't they fit a 3 cylinder Perkins?

Yes. I have one.


Retrofitted?
--
Jim K


----Android NewsGroup Reader----
http://usenet.sinaapp.com/

Probably.

Er definitely :-)

?In actual fact the tractor is a Reekie conversion with a P3,
extra gearbox to provide 8 + 2 speeds, short axle tubes for a
narrow track and small fronts and rears. A vineyard
model.
....

Sounds rare which vineyards?

Restored? Or "working clothes"?

--
Jim K


----Android NewsGroup Reader----
http://usenet.sinaapp.com/

In article , "Dave Plowman (News)"
writes
In article ,
jim k wrote:
"Dave Plowman (News)" Wrote in message:
In article ,
jim k wrote:
Think it's actually the other way round. Harry Ferguson designed the
engine later used by Standard Triumph. Of course it came in a variety of
sizes and power outputs.


Er no.

"Earlier versions used an imported American engine (the 1966cc
Continental Z-120) but once the 2088 cc unit being developed for
the Standard Vanguard car became available in September 1947 this
was fitted instead, exclusively so from July 1948."

Bit of a chicken and egg situation. But given Harry Ferguson designed
the engine, it would be safe to assume he intended it for both. But
the design - wet liners - was more what you'd expect for a commercial
unit than for a mid price car. Ie, designed to last rather longer than
was common for cars of the day.


But I don't recall ever seeing Ferguson credited with designing the
seperate body "Standard Motor Co"'s engine?

I'm talking about the engine which powered the Vanguard and subsequent
Triumph TRs.

We are talking about the engine which powered the little grey Fergie.
--
bert

In article ,
writes
On Sun, 1 May 2016 04:47:36 -0700 (PDT), Weatherlawyer
wrote:


Any idea how much horse power that old TVO represented?

Well now that we have all set off down to the good old days, batons in
hand, how about soem throughput for the OP?

How much of a game changer was the 5 (or less) horsepower engine when
they started to get a grip on farms?

Apparently the 5-Hp was quite a substantial motor, for its time.
Anyone have any real idea?

Something from the Victorian peasant's Space Age. How the Wright
engine worked:


Small IC engines made a huge difference from the 1900's but especially
after so after WW1 but not in tractor form*.
So when did the Standard Fordson, become commonplace? (The one with
single pedal for clutch and brake. I can remember driving one as a kid
in the 50s - no elfin safety in those days) It had metal wheels with the
lugs for grip. Tyres were an optional extra
Firms such as Lister and
Stuart Turner made 1000's that powered pumps, generators,sawbenches,
milking machines and all sorts of other machinery a situation that was
still common well into the 1960's until the majority of farms had
access to mains electric under the post WW2 rural electrification
scheme. Some will no doubt still be in use in some really. remote
places .
* There were some home produced makes of two wheeled walk behind
tractors that now days are more associated with the so called third
world , Trusty was one well known make.
http://www.vhgmc.co.uk/survivors/tru...ctor-register/

G.Harman

--
bert

On Mon, 2 May 2016 22:39:47 +0100, bert wrote:

In article ,
writes
On Sun, 1 May 2016 04:47:36 -0700 (PDT), Weatherlawyer
wrote:


Any idea how much horse power that old TVO represented?

Well now that we have all set off down to the good old days, batons in
hand, how about soem throughput for the OP?

How much of a game changer was the 5 (or less) horsepower engine when
they started to get a grip on farms?

Apparently the 5-Hp was quite a substantial motor, for its time.
Anyone have any real idea?

Something from the Victorian peasant's Space Age. How the Wright
engine worked:


Small IC engines made a huge difference from the 1900's but especially
after so after WW1 but not in tractor form*.
So when did the Standard Fordson, become commonplace? (The one with
single pedal for clutch and brake. I can remember driving one as a kid
in the 50s - no elfin safety in those days) It had metal wheels with the
lugs for grip. Tyres were an optional extra

It was introduced in WW1 as the Fordson F being purchased from the US
by the Government, a lot of horses had been sent to the battlefields
of France. It started to become common place on larger farms during
the 20's especially has Henry Ford moved the factory first to Ireland
and then Dagenham by which time the tractor had been modernised to the
N type which was produced until 1945 with again vast numbers being
built to improve agricultural efficiency during the war and quite a
few variants for the construction industry and the services ,the RAF
had many to tug aircraft and bomb trolleys around. A huge number
became available after WW2 and after that is when they really started
to displace the Horse even on small farms. As mentioned up thread my
dad got one around then.
The Fordson wasn't much more of a horse substitute though it could
have a pulley for driving saw benches and threshing machines etc thus
replacing traction engines and some later ones did have an optional
PTO shaft with a minimal guard put just where if your foot slipped
off that pedal you remember you stood on it. For small farmers like
my dad you adapted the old horse drawn implements from shafts to a
central hitch point and carried on using them though the ability to
haul more weight than a horse did allow some more modern equipment
such as balers or small towed combine harvesters which had their own
small engine to power them .

The Fordson has been called the tractor that won the war but like
Churchill towards the end it days were over.
Ferguson's tractor with it's new features such as the 3 point linkage
and hydraulic lifting and designed for a PTO from the start made it
obsolete at a stroke.
Another reason why Fordsons were cheap to acquire afterwards.

Ironically as Ford had moved his entire tractor production to Dagenham
including those for the US market the farmers of the US had turned
away and bought other US makes to the extant that they needed a really
good innovation to reestablish themselves in the US which is why they
grasped Harry Fergusons design with gusto and started production in
Detroit under the Ford badge just before WW2 and it was the fallout
afterwards that lead to the post war ones being built in the Standard
factory which was spare from having been a wartime production unit
rather than in the Ford UK plant.

What isn't often mentioned that the very first Ferguson tractors were
built in the mid thirties jointly with David Brown who later lent his
initials to Aston Martin models after he bought the company.
Ferguson and Brown had different ideas and went their separate ways.
If they had stayed together would Aston have made four wheel drive
before Jenson used the system?
G.Harman

In message , bert
writes
In article ,
writes
On Sun, 1 May 2016 04:47:36 -0700 (PDT), Weatherlawyer
wrote:


Any idea how much horse power that old TVO represented?

Well now that we have all set off down to the good old days, batons
in hand, how about soem throughput for the OP?

How much of a game changer was the 5 (or less) horsepower engine when
they started to get a grip on farms?

Apparently the 5-Hp was quite a substantial motor, for its time.
Anyone have any real idea?

Something from the Victorian peasant's Space Age. How the Wright
engine worked:


Small IC engines made a huge difference from the 1900's but especially
after so after WW1 but not in tractor form*.
So when did the Standard Fordson, become commonplace? (The one with
single pedal for clutch and brake. I can remember driving one as a kid
in the 50s - no elfin safety in those days) It had metal wheels with
the lugs for grip. Tyres were an optional extra

My father had one. Probably issued by the War Ag. Committee during WW2.
I remember it had a cast plate behind the steering wheel which claimed
1928 as the year of manufacture. At some stage a geared arrangement was
fitted to power a lifting draw bar, probably for ploughing.
--
Tim Lamb