On Monday, 27 July 2015 21:00:20 UTC+1, harry wrote:
On Monday, 27 July 2015 10:56:52 UTC+1, whisky-dave wrote:
On Sunday, 26 July 2015 10:23:09 UTC+1, harry wrote:
On Friday, 24 July 2015 21:25:26 UTC+1, bert wrote:
In article ,
newshound writes
On 20/07/2015 00:42, Rod Speed wrote:



Only the brain dead can'tseethis.

Only the brain dead can't see that the cost of
renewable energy makes it unviable for heating.

Direct solar for DHW might make sense,

It doesn't in Britain.

particularly if no mains gas and on well insulated new build.

Electricity makes a lot more sense for DHW, because its ideal
for storage hot water because it evens out the load on the
coal fired power stations and makes them run more efficiently.

For thermodynamic reasons, it's a bad idea deliberately to convert what
is effectively mechanical energy into heat. Night storage heaters were
popular decades ago when coal was relatively cheap. There's more
wiring, but with smart metering I suppose we might see a bit of a
come-back.
Nothing to do with smart metering - they're just crap

In the future smart meters will turn things in when electricity is plentiful and cheap.
Nothing to do with time if day.

No it'll do the opposite.
What they want is to use green energy which we all know costs more to produce
and when is that most likely to be most available ?

You really are a dimwit.

but still brighter than you.

In the future renewable energy will be the cheapest.

In the future when it is cheaper then that's when it'll be best to use it,
but time travel isn't possible so will have to wait until the future gets to us.

The energy source is free.
Capturing it isn't.

Life is free too, food is free, air is free water is free, sex is free.


We will use it when it is available.

and we won't use it when it isn't.

On Monday, 27 July 2015 21:02:54 UTC+1, harry wrote:
On Monday, 27 July 2015 12:59:58 UTC+1, Tim Streater wrote:
In article ,
harry wrote:

On Sunday, 26 July 2015 16:38:00 UTC+1, Tim Streater wrote:
In article ,
harry wrote:

On Saturday, 25 July 2015 08:16:28 UTC+1, Chris Hogg wrote:
On Sat, 25 Jul 2015 11:45:49 +1000, "Rod Speed"
wrote:

Nothing to do with smart metering

Everything to do with smart meters when they can turn
on some devices like DHW when the supply system needs
to avoid running down some coal generated power to
load balance.

- they're just crap

Wrong again. They encourage the consumers to use
their higher power consuming devices when the system
has surplus power.

There seem to be two interpretations of the term 'smart meter' here.
The present generation aren't particularly smart and AIUI are
incapable of controlling individual circuits within the home. OTOH a
really smart meter would combine the properties of meter and consumer
unit, and be quite capable of switching high demand items such as DHW
or CH, which are on their own circuits anyway, under control by the
electricity supplier.

Smart meters have infinite capability. What they do now is neither here nor
there. It can be changed quite easily.

They will be able to turn stuff on when there is plenty of (cheap) power.

There's nothing here that I'd like someone else to be turning on and
off.

That'll be an option.

So which items will be turned on and off by others, then, harry? Items
I'll be pleased about, I mean.

Stuff like water heaters and refrigerators. Electric car charging.

So it's going to turn my water heater and the fridge/freezer of an on depending on whether or not the sun is shining or the winds blowing.

On Monday, 27 July 2015 23:08:11 UTC+1, Tim Streater wrote:

Why don't you read up about them?

I will do one day.

On Monday, 27 July 2015 23:08:11 UTC+1, Tim Streater wrote:

Why don't you read up about them?

Although, even then It's likely I'd have been here asking if the
1 kW insolation figure is the 10% efficiency value, or PV panels
are only 10% efficient from the 1 kW value!

In article , Tim Streater
writes
In article ,
harry wrote:

On Monday, 27 July 2015 12:59:58 UTC+1, Tim Streater wrote:

So which items will be turned on and off by others, then, harry? Items
I'll be pleased about, I mean.

Stuff like water heaters and refrigerators. Electric car charging.

I use oil for heating water, and have no electric car. And I don't want
the fridge turned off.

0/10 harry. Must try harder.

The only time you might agree to having the fridge turned off is when it
is at its designated temperature - when its thermostat has switched it
off - doh.
--
bert

On Tuesday, 28 July 2015 20:27:15 UTC+1, bert wrote:
In article , Tim Streater
writes
In article ,
harry wrote:

On Monday, 27 July 2015 12:59:58 UTC+1, Tim Streater wrote:

So which items will be turned on and off by others, then, harry? Items
I'll be pleased about, I mean.

Stuff like water heaters and refrigerators. Electric car charging.

I use oil for heating water, and have no electric car. And I don't want
the fridge turned off.

0/10 harry. Must try harder.

The only time you might agree to having the fridge turned off is when it
is at its designated temperature - when its thermostat has switched it
off - doh.
--
bert

But I'd still want the little light on when I open the door, so I can find things in the dark. But that might only happen when the sun is out and the wind is blowing.....

On Wednesday, July 15, 2015 at 2:27:53 PM UTC+1, David Paste wrote:
According to:

http://www.fwi.co.uk/business/hampsh...ks-largest.htm

48 MW solar farm is being built.

No info on that page, as expected. Look at:

http://renewables-map.co.uk/details....Solar %20Farm

for more details:

Solar Panels: 50000
Capacity: 40 MW
Acreage: 200

More info:

200 acres = 80.9 hectares = 809,371.284 square metres.

40 MW from 809,371.284 square metres.

40,000,000 / 809,371.284 = 49.42 watts per square metre.

I am aware that this will be the avaerage over day and night, and over the year. I am aware that solar insolation is very variable. But 49 watts per square metre? Can that really be right? Is the 200 acres the site size, or the combined size of all the panels?

I assume I have calculated something wrong. Can any one help?

Thanks in advance,

David Paste.



Background:

A not-particularly-technologically-minded friend was pondering whether or not an electric train covered in PV panels would be viable. I said no, assuming an easy to calculate figure of 10 MW for a Eurostar (wikipedia has values ranging from 3.4 MW to 12.2 MW). I was assuming that the *avaerage* yearly insolation for the UK was 1kW per square metre, garnered from:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insolation

so for 10 MW, you'd need (10,000,000/1,000 = 10,000 square metres = 1 hectare = 2.47 acres of panels for one train.

A rough estimation for BR Class 373 on the Eurostar gives about 1,000 square metres of roof on a 20 car set. Or 1 MW at theoretical maximum. But it won't be, will it. Curved roof, adverse weather, panel efficiency, all of that.

I know that PV panels are not 100% efficient at converting light into leccy, but I was still staggered to see that 49 watts per square metre was the average figure used for that solar farm.

And so surely I've done something wrong.


The thing is if they find that they are not paying back as forecasted to the bank etc. the company will go bankrupt and the general public will again bail out the banks.

On 7/26/2015 10:26 AM, harry wrote:

Smart meters have infinite capability. What they do now is neither here nor there. It can be changed quite easily.

That's not really true...

A smart meter may be able to disconnect the whole supply, but any
ability to selectively turn other stuff on or off requires co-operation
from the appliance or domestic switching infrastructure to make it
possible.

They will be able to turn stuff on when there is plenty of (cheap) power.
Anyone overiding them will have to pay (lots?) more.

A smart meter in communication with suitable "smart" appliances perhaps.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On Wednesday, 29 July 2015 12:05:23 UTC+1, John Rumm wrote:
On 7/26/2015 10:26 AM, harry wrote:

Smart meters have infinite capability. What they do now is neither here nor there. It can be changed quite easily.

That's not really true...

A smart meter may be able to disconnect the whole supply, but any
ability to selectively turn other stuff on or off requires co-operation
from the appliance or domestic switching infrastructure to make it
possible.

It will be intresting to see what they do. I guess if you buy a 3kw kettle
they could put cirucry in it that will either turn the kettle off or switch it down to 1kw. But that ciruitry might not be cheap enough to include in the £5 kettles you can buy.


They will be able to turn stuff on when there is plenty of (cheap) power.

On 29/07/2015 13:42, whisky-dave wrote:
It will be intresting to see what they do. I guess if you buy a 3kw kettle
they could put cirucry in it that will either turn the kettle off or switch it down to 1kw. But that ciruitry might not be cheap enough to include in the £5 kettles you can buy.

That won't help much.

If a million people put the kettle on when the program ends that's 3
million kW for about a minute.

If they power it down it's 1 million for 3 minutes. Sounds good - except
that's a rare case, they aren't usually synchronised like that, and if
they aren't the energy used around 11am-ish teabreak will be the same.

Andy

In article , Chris Hogg
writes
On Wed, 29 Jul 2015 01:53:31 -0700 (PDT), whisky-dave
wrote:

On Tuesday, 28 July 2015 20:27:15 UTC+1, bert wrote:
In article , Tim Streater
writes
In article ,
harry wrote:

On Monday, 27 July 2015 12:59:58 UTC+1, Tim Streater wrote:

So which items will be turned on and off by others, then, harry? Items
I'll be pleased about, I mean.

Stuff like water heaters and refrigerators. Electric car charging.

I use oil for heating water, and have no electric car. And I don't want
the fridge turned off.

0/10 harry. Must try harder.

The only time you might agree to having the fridge turned off is when it
is at its designated temperature - when its thermostat has switched it
off - doh.
--
bert

But I'd still want the little light on when I open the door, so I can
find things in the dark. But that might only happen when the sun is
out and the wind is blowing.....

Surely, operators of truly 'smart' meters will only bother to control
high-demand items such as DHW, CH and Harry's car*. If power becomes
limited (too many green generators, but no wind or sun), I don't see
the point of switching off the minor stuff. They, by definition, will
only make a minor difference.

*whether that should include cookers will no doubt be debated when the
meters become widely installed. I can see Xmas lunch on a dull,
windless Xmas Day being somewhat delayed, if they do!

There's no such animal. "Smart meter" is a marketing term dreamt up to
persuade people to accept meters which can be read remotely rather than
have a man in a van calling round. As a further part of their bull****
they try to persuade you that by sitting in your garage or under the
stairs watching the meter click over you will somehow magically save
electricity.

It's only the eco-warriors who have seized on the term and tried to
interpret it as something which it is not to try to cover the
deficiencies in their concept of renewable energy being a viable
provider of power.
--
bert

On Wednesday, 29 July 2015 21:20:12 UTC+1, Vir Campestris wrote:
On 29/07/2015 13:42, whisky-dave wrote:
It will be intresting to see what they do. I guess if you buy a 3kw kettle
they could put cirucry in it that will either turn the kettle off or switch it down to 1kw. But that ciruitry might not be cheap enough to include in the £5 kettles you can buy.

That won't help much.

If a million people put the kettle on when the program ends that's 3
million kW for about a minute.

or more accuratly 5 million people making the switch on about 5GW.


If they power it down it's 1 million for 3 minutes. Sounds good - except
that's a rare case, they aren't usually synchronised like that,

They are that's how power stations know when they need to suplpy more to the grid. EEs one example there are others such as large sporting events.
If tehy do this it won't just be kettles either, it could be put into ovens and other high power equipment.


and if
they aren't the energy used around 11am-ish teabreak will be the same.

spread across a longer time period that's the whole point isn't it.

On Thursday, 30 July 2015 14:27:41 UTC+1, bert wrote:
In article , Chris Hogg
writes
On Wed, 29 Jul 2015 01:53:31 -0700 (PDT), whisky-dave
wrote:

On Tuesday, 28 July 2015 20:27:15 UTC+1, bert wrote:
In article , Tim Streater
writes
In article ,
harry wrote:

On Monday, 27 July 2015 12:59:58 UTC+1, Tim Streater wrote:

So which items will be turned on and off by others, then, harry? Items
I'll be pleased about, I mean.

Stuff like water heaters and refrigerators. Electric car charging.

I use oil for heating water, and have no electric car. And I don't want
the fridge turned off.

0/10 harry. Must try harder.

The only time you might agree to having the fridge turned off is when it
is at its designated temperature - when its thermostat has switched it
off - doh.
--
bert

But I'd still want the little light on when I open the door, so I can
find things in the dark. But that might only happen when the sun is
out and the wind is blowing.....

Surely, operators of truly 'smart' meters will only bother to control
high-demand items such as DHW, CH and Harry's car*. If power becomes
limited (too many green generators, but no wind or sun), I don't see
the point of switching off the minor stuff. They, by definition, will
only make a minor difference.

*whether that should include cookers will no doubt be debated when the
meters become widely installed. I can see Xmas lunch on a dull,
windless Xmas Day being somewhat delayed, if they do!

There's no such animal. "Smart meter" is a marketing term dreamt up to
persuade people to accept meters which can be read remotely rather than
have a man in a van calling round.

There's a bit more too it than that as you'll be able to get graphs of yuor actual usage without haviong to type the data into an excel sheet. You'll be able to predict the usage for next year(But only if little changes in that year).
I know someone that's been writing software for a mobile phone app.
His employer keeps changing what he wants and how it's displayed almost every week.


As a further part of their bull****
they try to persuade you that by sitting in your garage or under the
stairs watching the meter click over you will somehow magically save
electricity.

You won't magically save it unless you take action to save it.
I don;t have to sit under the satairs I have a woreless unit that gives me a digital readout of how much power I'm currenly (pun intented) using.
I can even see it go up by ~9 watts when I plug my ipad into the charger.
Sometimes it's as almost as excitoing as watching the ads on TV.

Chris Hogg wrote:
On Wed, 29 Jul 2015 22:14:56 +0100, wrote:

In , Chris Hogg
writes
On Wed, 29 Jul 2015 01:53:31 -0700 (PDT), whisky-dave
wrote:

On Tuesday, 28 July 2015 20:27:15 UTC+1, bert wrote:
In t, Tim Streater
writes
In ,
wrote:

On Monday, 27 July 2015 12:59:58 UTC+1, Tim Streater wrote:

So which items will be turned on and off by others, then, harry? Items
I'll be pleased about, I mean.

Stuff like water heaters and refrigerators. Electric car charging.

I use oil for heating water, and have no electric car. And I don't want
the fridge turned off.

0/10 harry. Must try harder.

The only time you might agree to having the fridge turned off is when it
is at its designated temperature - when its thermostat has switched it
off - doh.
--
bert

But I'd still want the little light on when I open the door, so I can
find things in the dark. But that might only happen when the sun is
out and the wind is blowing.....

Surely, operators of truly 'smart' meters will only bother to control
high-demand items such as DHW, CH and Harry's car*. If power becomes
limited (too many green generators, but no wind or sun), I don't see
the point of switching off the minor stuff. They, by definition, will
only make a minor difference.

*whether that should include cookers will no doubt be debated when the
meters become widely installed. I can see Xmas lunch on a dull,
windless Xmas Day being somewhat delayed, if they do!

There's no such animal. "Smart meter" is a marketing term dreamt up to
persuade people to accept meters which can be read remotely rather than
have a man in a van calling round. As a further part of their bull****
they try to persuade you that by sitting in your garage or under the
stairs watching the meter click over you will somehow magically save
electricity.

It's only the eco-warriors who have seized on the term and tried to
interpret it as something which it is not to try to cover the
deficiencies in their concept of renewable energy being a viable
provider of power.

That's why I called them truly smart meters. The so-called smart
meters of today have very little in common with the sort of device
that could throttle back or switch on or off, your DHW or CH under
instruction from your supplier, depending on the availability of
electricity. It will be a sad day when it happens, but it's Harry's
nirvana!


I put it into the same category as condensing boilers, a black hole
into which my neighbours pour money due to the manufacturers inability
to produce a reliable product. Next door are on their 3rd boiler in 15 yrs.

On 30/07/2015 15:00, Chris Hogg wrote:


That's why I called them truly smart meters. The so-called smart
meters of today have very little in common with the sort of device
that could throttle back or switch on or off, your DHW or CH under
instruction from your supplier, depending on the availability of
electricity. It will be a sad day when it happens, but it's Harry's
nirvana!


Shirly a smart meter could cut your solar panels off if we have too much
power.

On Thursday, 30 July 2015 18:28:40 UTC+1, dennis @ home wrote:
On 30/07/2015 15:00, Chris Hogg wrote:


That's why I called them truly smart meters. The so-called smart
meters of today have very little in common with the sort of device
that could throttle back or switch on or off, your DHW or CH under
instruction from your supplier, depending on the availability of
electricity. It will be a sad day when it happens, but it's Harry's
nirvana!


Shirly a smart meter could cut your solar panels off if we have too much power.

In the future, when PV power &c is more extensive than at present, that's exactly what they'll do.
It won't be possible to add uncontrolled PV power to the public power supply forever.

However, some time to go before that situation arises.
The expensive fossil fuels will be cut back first.

On 30/07/2015 19:33, harry wrote:
On Thursday, 30 July 2015 18:28:40 UTC+1, dennis @ home wrote:
On 30/07/2015 15:00, Chris Hogg wrote:


That's why I called them truly smart meters. The so-called smart
meters of today have very little in common with the sort of device
that could throttle back or switch on or off, your DHW or CH under
instruction from your supplier, depending on the availability of
electricity. It will be a sad day when it happens, but it's Harry's
nirvana!


Shirly a smart meter could cut your solar panels off if we have too much power.

In the future, when PV power &c is more extensive than at present, that's exactly what they'll do.
It won't be possible to add uncontrolled PV power to the public power supply forever.

However, some time to go before that situation arises.
The expensive fossil fuels will be cut back first.


The expensive fossil fuels aren't the ones that fluctuate up and down by
the second so don't need the same control as the even more expensive
solar and wind does.

"Chris Hogg" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 29 Jul 2015 22:14:56 +0100, bert wrote:

In article , Chris Hogg
writes
On Wed, 29 Jul 2015 01:53:31 -0700 (PDT), whisky-dave
wrote:

On Tuesday, 28 July 2015 20:27:15 UTC+1, bert wrote:
In article , Tim Streater
writes
In article ,
harry wrote:

On Monday, 27 July 2015 12:59:58 UTC+1, Tim Streater wrote:

So which items will be turned on and off by others, then, harry?
Items
I'll be pleased about, I mean.

Stuff like water heaters and refrigerators. Electric car charging.

I use oil for heating water, and have no electric car. And I don't
want
the fridge turned off.

0/10 harry. Must try harder.

The only time you might agree to having the fridge turned off is when
it
is at its designated temperature - when its thermostat has switched it
off - doh.
--
bert

But I'd still want the little light on when I open the door, so I can
find things in the dark. But that might only happen when the sun is
out and the wind is blowing.....

Surely, operators of truly 'smart' meters will only bother to control
high-demand items such as DHW, CH and Harry's car*. If power becomes
limited (too many green generators, but no wind or sun), I don't see
the point of switching off the minor stuff. They, by definition, will
only make a minor difference.

*whether that should include cookers will no doubt be debated when the
meters become widely installed. I can see Xmas lunch on a dull,
windless Xmas Day being somewhat delayed, if they do!

There's no such animal. "Smart meter" is a marketing term dreamt up to
persuade people to accept meters which can be read remotely rather than
have a man in a van calling round. As a further part of their bull****
they try to persuade you that by sitting in your garage or under the
stairs watching the meter click over you will somehow magically save
electricity.

It's only the eco-warriors who have seized on the term and tried to
interpret it as something which it is not to try to cover the
deficiencies in their concept of renewable energy being a viable
provider of power.

That's why I called them truly smart meters. The so-called smart
meters of today have very little in common with the sort of device
that could throttle back or switch on or off, your DHW or CH under
instruction from your supplier, depending on the availability of
electricity. It will be a sad day when it happens,

Don't see it as anything like a sad day if you get cheaper
electricity for the high demand devices like DHW and storage
heaters that you don't mind if they charge them when it suits
them and charge you less for the electricity they use to do that.

but it's Harry's nirvana!

In article , Chris Hogg
writes
On Wed, 29 Jul 2015 22:14:56 +0100, bert wrote:

In article , Chris Hogg
writes
On Wed, 29 Jul 2015 01:53:31 -0700 (PDT), whisky-dave
wrote:

On Tuesday, 28 July 2015 20:27:15 UTC+1, bert wrote:
In article , Tim Streater
writes
In article ,
harry wrote:

On Monday, 27 July 2015 12:59:58 UTC+1, Tim Streater wrote:

So which items will be turned on and off by others, then, harry? Items
I'll be pleased about, I mean.

Stuff like water heaters and refrigerators. Electric car charging.

I use oil for heating water, and have no electric car. And I don't want
the fridge turned off.

0/10 harry. Must try harder.

The only time you might agree to having the fridge turned off is when it
is at its designated temperature - when its thermostat has switched it
off - doh.
--
bert

But I'd still want the little light on when I open the door, so I can
find things in the dark. But that might only happen when the sun is
out and the wind is blowing.....

Surely, operators of truly 'smart' meters will only bother to control
high-demand items such as DHW, CH and Harry's car*. If power becomes
limited (too many green generators, but no wind or sun), I don't see
the point of switching off the minor stuff. They, by definition, will
only make a minor difference.

*whether that should include cookers will no doubt be debated when the
meters become widely installed. I can see Xmas lunch on a dull,
windless Xmas Day being somewhat delayed, if they do!

There's no such animal. "Smart meter" is a marketing term dreamt up to
persuade people to accept meters which can be read remotely rather than
have a man in a van calling round. As a further part of their bull****
they try to persuade you that by sitting in your garage or under the
stairs watching the meter click over you will somehow magically save
electricity.

It's only the eco-warriors who have seized on the term and tried to
interpret it as something which it is not to try to cover the
deficiencies in their concept of renewable energy being a viable
provider of power.

That's why I called them truly smart meters. The so-called smart
meters of today have very little in common with the sort of device
that could throttle back or switch on or off, your DHW or CH under
instruction from your supplier, depending on the availability of
electricity. It will be a sad day when it happens, but it's Harry's
nirvana!

My point is that as far as I now no-one is actually designing or
developing such a meter. Of course it is theoretically possible but
wholly implausible.
--
bert

In article ,
harry writes
On Thursday, 30 July 2015 18:28:40 UTC+1, dennis @ home wrote:
On 30/07/2015 15:00, Chris Hogg wrote:


That's why I called them truly smart meters. The so-called smart
meters of today have very little in common with the sort of device
that could throttle back or switch on or off, your DHW or CH under
instruction from your supplier, depending on the availability of
electricity. It will be a sad day when it happens, but it's Harry's
nirvana!


Shirly a smart meter could cut your solar panels off if we have too
much power.

In the future, when PV power &c is more extensive than at present,
that's exactly what they'll do.
It won't be possible to add uncontrolled PV power to the public power
supply forever.

However, some time to go before that situation arises.
The expensive fossil fuels will be cut back first.

Either fossil or nuclear will be required for cloudy days and night time
power. If PV is so cheap why am I having to subsidise it by and
additional charge on my energy bill?
--
bert

"bert" wrote in message
...
In article , Chris Hogg
writes
On Wed, 29 Jul 2015 22:14:56 +0100, bert wrote:

In article , Chris Hogg
writes
On Wed, 29 Jul 2015 01:53:31 -0700 (PDT), whisky-dave
wrote:

On Tuesday, 28 July 2015 20:27:15 UTC+1, bert wrote:
In article , Tim
Streater
writes
In article ,
harry wrote:

On Monday, 27 July 2015 12:59:58 UTC+1, Tim Streater wrote:

So which items will be turned on and off by others, then, harry?
Items
I'll be pleased about, I mean.

Stuff like water heaters and refrigerators. Electric car charging.

I use oil for heating water, and have no electric car. And I don't
want
the fridge turned off.

0/10 harry. Must try harder.

The only time you might agree to having the fridge turned off is when
it
is at its designated temperature - when its thermostat has switched
it
off - doh.
--
bert

But I'd still want the little light on when I open the door, so I can
find things in the dark. But that might only happen when the sun is
out and the wind is blowing.....

Surely, operators of truly 'smart' meters will only bother to control
high-demand items such as DHW, CH and Harry's car*. If power becomes
limited (too many green generators, but no wind or sun), I don't see
the point of switching off the minor stuff. They, by definition, will
only make a minor difference.

*whether that should include cookers will no doubt be debated when the
meters become widely installed. I can see Xmas lunch on a dull,
windless Xmas Day being somewhat delayed, if they do!

There's no such animal. "Smart meter" is a marketing term dreamt up to
persuade people to accept meters which can be read remotely rather than
have a man in a van calling round. As a further part of their bull****
they try to persuade you that by sitting in your garage or under the
stairs watching the meter click over you will somehow magically save
electricity.

It's only the eco-warriors who have seized on the term and tried to
interpret it as something which it is not to try to cover the
deficiencies in their concept of renewable energy being a viable
provider of power.

That's why I called them truly smart meters. The so-called smart
meters of today have very little in common with the sort of device
that could throttle back or switch on or off, your DHW or CH under
instruction from your supplier, depending on the availability of
electricity. It will be a sad day when it happens, but it's Harry's
nirvana!

My point is that as far as I now no-one is actually designing or
developing such a meter.

Its been around since long before smart meters were even invented.

Of course it is theoretically possible but
wholly implausible.

Must explain why it has been used since smart meters were even invented.

"zaax" wrote in message
...
On Wednesday, July 15, 2015 at 2:27:53 PM UTC+1, David Paste wrote:
According to:

http://www.fwi.co.uk/business/hampsh...ks-largest.htm

48 MW solar farm is being built.

No info on that page, as expected. Look at:

http://renewables-map.co.uk/details....Solar %20Farm

for more details:

Solar Panels: 50000
Capacity: 40 MW
Acreage: 200

More info:

200 acres = 80.9 hectares = 809,371.284 square metres.

40 MW from 809,371.284 square metres.

40,000,000 / 809,371.284 = 49.42 watts per square metre.

I am aware that this will be the avaerage over day and night, and over
the year. I am aware that solar insolation is very variable. But 49 watts
per square metre? Can that really be right? Is the 200 acres the site
size, or the combined size of all the panels?

I assume I have calculated something wrong. Can any one help?

Thanks in advance,

David Paste.



Background:

A not-particularly-technologically-minded friend was pondering whether or
not an electric train covered in PV panels would be viable. I said no,
assuming an easy to calculate figure of 10 MW for a Eurostar (wikipedia
has values ranging from 3.4 MW to 12.2 MW). I was assuming that the
*avaerage* yearly insolation for the UK was 1kW per square metre,
garnered from:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insolation

so for 10 MW, you'd need (10,000,000/1,000 = 10,000 square metres = 1
hectare = 2.47 acres of panels for one train.

A rough estimation for BR Class 373 on the Eurostar gives about 1,000
square metres of roof on a 20 car set. Or 1 MW at theoretical maximum.
But it won't be, will it. Curved roof, adverse weather, panel efficiency,
all of that.

I know that PV panels are not 100% efficient at converting light into
leccy, but I was still staggered to see that 49 watts per square metre
was the average figure used for that solar farm.

And so surely I've done something wrong.

The thing is if they find that they are not paying back as forecasted to
the bank etc. the company will go bankrupt

Yep.

and the general public will again bail out the banks.

Nope, because not bailing them out wont produce another great depression in
that case.

whisky-dave wrote
John Rumm wrote
harry wrote

Smart meters have infinite capability. What they do now
is neither here nor there. It can be changed quite easily.

That's not really true...

A smart meter may be able to disconnect the whole supply, but any
ability to selectively turn other stuff on or off requires co-operation
from the appliance or domestic switching infrastructure to make it
possible.

It will be intresting to see what they do.

We already know from what they did before smart meters
were even invented, just controlled the stuff like storage
DHW, storage heaters, electrically heated floors etc.

I guess if you buy a 3kw kettle

No point with loads like that that aren't used for long and which
the consumer wants to operate when they want the tea etc.

they could put cirucry in it that will either turn the kettle
off or switch it down to 1kw. But that ciruitry might not
be cheap enough to include in the £5 kettles you can buy.

Corse it would, doesn't cost much when its an ic.

They will be able to turn stuff on when there is plenty of (cheap)
power. Anyone overiding them will have to pay (lots?) more.

Maybe Harry's got that right at least.

Nope, he never does.

I really can;t see them offering true cheaper electricity,

They have done that for decades now, to encourage people
to use that cheaper electricity when its surplus to requirements.

what they'll do is charge you more for your
electric when renewable isn't availible.

They still have the need they always have done, to balance the load
on coal and nuke power stations because you can't economically
just them off when there is renewable power available.

A smart meter in communication with suitable "smart" appliances perhaps.

and smart people working out ways to override them.

Hasn't happened with the off peak power devices that have
been around since long before smart meters were even invented.

Not sure how practicle it will be to turn down or off all the kettles
in the country in the early evening just as Eastenders finishes.

Pointless, pumped water systems have handled those spikes for a long time
now.

On Friday, 31 July 2015 08:53:53 UTC+1, Rod Speed wrote:
whisky-dave wrote
John Rumm wrote
harry wrote

Smart meters have infinite capability. What they do now
is neither here nor there. It can be changed quite easily.

That's not really true...

A smart meter may be able to disconnect the whole supply, but any
ability to selectively turn other stuff on or off requires co-operation
from the appliance or domestic switching infrastructure to make it
possible.

It will be intresting to see what they do.

We already know from what they did before smart meters
were even invented, just controlled the stuff like storage
DHW, storage heaters, electrically heated floors etc.

So they'll be no differnce with smart meters.


I guess if you buy a 3kw kettle

No point with loads like that that aren't used for long and which
the consumer wants to operate when they want the tea etc.

But they are typically the highest usage things most homes have.


they could put cirucry in it that will either turn the kettle
off or switch it down to 1kw. But that ciruitry might not
be cheap enough to include in the £5 kettles you can buy.

Corse it would, doesn't cost much when its an ic.

an IC can't easily do such a thing as control a 3kw kettle unless it just switches it off.


They will be able to turn stuff on when there is plenty of (cheap)
power. Anyone overiding them will have to pay (lots?) more.

Maybe Harry's got that right at least.

Nope, he never does.

I really can;t see them offering true cheaper electricity,

They have done that for decades now, to encourage people
to use that cheaper electricity when its surplus to requirements.

which is only at night, and your' obviously too dim to know that those that have teh cheaper electricity get charged MORE for they no cheaqper electricity why do you think that is.
or put another way, why do those on E7 get charged more for the daytime electricity then pople that don;t have E7....

your answer is ....


what they'll do is charge you more for your
electric when renewable isn't availible.

They still have the need they always have done, to balance the load
on coal and nuke power stations because you can't economically
just them off when there is renewable power available.

so will make actually mean the electricity costs more to produce and you're telling me the companies won't pass this higher cost on ?
yeah the same day islamic state will organise a flower arranging day.


A smart meter in communication with suitable "smart" appliances perhaps.

and smart people working out ways to override them.

Hasn't happened with the off peak power devices that have
been around since long before smart meters were even invented.

because they aren't smart you don't need to you just bypass them.
That's been done for years too.


Not sure how practicle it will be to turn down or off all the kettles
in the country in the early evening just as Eastenders finishes.

Pointless, pumped water systems have handled those spikes for a long time
now.

only because coal and nuclear provide the bulk of power ussage at them time, when they get rid of them they won't be there stupid.

In article , JHY
writes


"bert" wrote in message
...
In article , Chris Hogg
writes
On Wed, 29 Jul 2015 22:14:56 +0100, bert wrote:

In article , Chris Hogg
writes
On Wed, 29 Jul 2015 01:53:31 -0700 (PDT), whisky-dave
wrote:

On Tuesday, 28 July 2015 20:27:15 UTC+1, bert wrote:
In article , Tim
Streater
writes
In article ,
harry wrote:

On Monday, 27 July 2015 12:59:58 UTC+1, Tim Streater wrote:

So which items will be turned on and off by others, then,
harry? Items
I'll be pleased about, I mean.

Stuff like water heaters and refrigerators. Electric car charging.

I use oil for heating water, and have no electric car. And I
don't want
the fridge turned off.

0/10 harry. Must try harder.

The only time you might agree to having the fridge turned off is
when it
is at its designated temperature - when its thermostat has
switched it
off - doh.
--
bert

But I'd still want the little light on when I open the door, so I can
find things in the dark. But that might only happen when the sun is
out and the wind is blowing.....

Surely, operators of truly 'smart' meters will only bother to control
high-demand items such as DHW, CH and Harry's car*. If power becomes
limited (too many green generators, but no wind or sun), I don't see
the point of switching off the minor stuff. They, by definition, will
only make a minor difference.

*whether that should include cookers will no doubt be debated when the
meters become widely installed. I can see Xmas lunch on a dull,
windless Xmas Day being somewhat delayed, if they do!

There's no such animal. "Smart meter" is a marketing term dreamt up to
persuade people to accept meters which can be read remotely rather than
have a man in a van calling round. As a further part of their bull****
they try to persuade you that by sitting in your garage or under the
stairs watching the meter click over you will somehow magically save
electricity.

It's only the eco-warriors who have seized on the term and tried to
interpret it as something which it is not to try to cover the
deficiencies in their concept of renewable energy being a viable
provider of power.

That's why I called them truly smart meters. The so-called smart
meters of today have very little in common with the sort of device
that could throttle back or switch on or off, your DHW or CH under
instruction from your supplier, depending on the availability of
electricity. It will be a sad day when it happens, but it's Harry's
nirvana!

My point is that as far as I now no-one is actually designing or
developing such a meter.

Its been around since long before smart meters were even invented.

Of course it is theoretically possible but
wholly implausible.

Must explain why it has been used since smart meters were even
invented.
Yes , they are called "switches"
--
bert

"David Paste" wrote in message
...
According to:

http://www.fwi.co.uk/business/hampsh...ks-largest.htm

48 MW solar farm is being built.

No info on that page, as expected. Look at:

http://renewables-map.co.uk/details....Solar %20Farm

for more details:

Solar Panels: 50000
Capacity: 40 MW
Acreage: 200

More info:

200 acres = 80.9 hectares = 809,371.284 square metres.

40 MW from 809,371.284 square metres.

40,000,000 / 809,371.284 = 49.42 watts per square metre.

I am aware that this will be the avaerage over day and night, and over the
year. I am aware that solar insolation is very variable. But 49 watts per
square metre? Can that really be right? Is the 200 acres the site size, or
the combined size of all the panels?

I assume I have calculated something wrong. Can any one help?

Thanks in advance,

David Paste.



Background:

A not-particularly-technologically-minded friend was pondering whether or
not an electric train covered in PV panels would be viable. I said no,
assuming an easy to calculate figure of 10 MW for a Eurostar (wikipedia has
values ranging from 3.4 MW to 12.2 MW). I was assuming that the *avaerage*
yearly insolation for the UK was 1kW per square metre, garnered from:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insolation

so for 10 MW, you'd need (10,000,000/1,000 = 10,000 square metres = 1
hectare = 2.47 acres of panels for one train.

A rough estimation for BR Class 373 on the Eurostar gives about 1,000 square
metres of roof on a 20 car set. Or 1 MW at theoretical maximum. But it won't
be, will it. Curved roof, adverse weather, panel efficiency, all of that.

I know that PV panels are not 100% efficient at converting light into leccy,
but I was still staggered to see that 49 watts per square metre was the
average figure used for that solar farm.

And so surely I've done something wrong.

Thanks again.

Wodney will be along shortly.

"harry" wrote in message
...
On Thursday, 30 July 2015 18:28:40 UTC+1, dennis @ home wrote:
On 30/07/2015 15:00, Chris Hogg wrote:


That's why I called them truly smart meters. The so-called smart
meters of today have very little in common with the sort of device
that could throttle back or switch on or off, your DHW or CH under
instruction from your supplier, depending on the availability of
electricity. It will be a sad day when it happens, but it's Harry's
nirvana!


Shirly a smart meter could cut your solar panels off if we have too much
power.

In the future, when PV power &c is more extensive than at present, that's
exactly what they'll do.
It won't be possible to add uncontrolled PV power to the public power
supply forever.

However, some time to go before that situation arises.
The expensive fossil fuels will be cut back first.

Not with coal, you watch.

On 01/08/15 01:51, bm wrote:
"David Paste" wrote in message
...
According to:

http://www.fwi.co.uk/business/hampsh...ks-largest.htm

48 MW solar farm is being built.

No info on that page, as expected. Look at:

http://renewables-map.co.uk/details....Solar %20Farm

for more details:

Solar Panels: 50000
Capacity: 40 MW
Acreage: 200

More info:

200 acres = 80.9 hectares = 809,371.284 square metres.

40 MW from 809,371.284 square metres.

40,000,000 / 809,371.284 = 49.42 watts per square metre.

I am aware that this will be the avaerage over day and night, and over the
year. I am aware that solar insolation is very variable. But 49 watts per
square metre? Can that really be right? Is the 200 acres the site size, or
the combined size of all the panels?

I assume I have calculated something wrong. Can any one help?

Thanks in advance,

David Paste.



Background:

A not-particularly-technologically-minded friend was pondering whether or
not an electric train covered in PV panels would be viable. I said no,
assuming an easy to calculate figure of 10 MW for a Eurostar (wikipedia has
values ranging from 3.4 MW to 12.2 MW). I was assuming that the *avaerage*
yearly insolation for the UK was 1kW per square metre, garnered from:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insolation

That graph and that figure is in fact WRONG.


I suspect its in Kwh per sq m per day not kw per sq m.

"The UK's annual insolation is in the range of 750€“1,100 kilowatt-hours
per square metre (kWh/m²). London receives 0.52 and 4.74 kWh/m² per day
in December and July, respectively."

If you divide 1000 kWh per year by 365 x 24 you get an average of around
110W/m which is about what the average insolation is given that its dark
and night and in winter.

PEAK midday midsummer insolation is about 1kW/sq meter.

Now the theoretical PV efficiency limit is 67% or thereabouts: In fact
IIRC they do around 20%, so the average output of a solar farm is
something of the order of 22w/sq m.

Contrast a wind farm at maybe 2W/sq m and biofuel at 0.1W /sq m.



so for 10 MW, you'd need (10,000,000/1,000 = 10,000 square metres = 1
hectare = 2.47 acres of panels for one train.

A rough estimation for BR Class 373 on the Eurostar gives about 1,000 square
metres of roof on a 20 car set. Or 1 MW at theoretical maximum. But it won't
be, will it. Curved roof, adverse weather, panel efficiency, all of that.

I know that PV panels are not 100% efficient at converting light into leccy,
but I was still staggered to see that 49 watts per square metre was the
average figure used for that solar farm.


That is in fact pretty close to the likely figure,


And so surely I've done something wrong.


Nope. renewable energy is for people who can't do sums.

For example, one onshore wind farm that is capable of delivering the
same average output as Fukushima did would permenently render an area of
land greater than the current exclusions zone *permanently
uninhabitable* on H & S grounds, It would be a desert covered in nothing
but windmills the size of greater london, and then some.

And it would STILL need a thwacking big coal or gas power station to
keep to working when the wind dropped.

Thanks again.

Wodney will be along shortly.




--
New Socialism consists essentially in being seen to have your heart in
the right place whilst your head is in the clouds and your hand is in
someone else's pocket.

On 01/08/2015 07:44, Tim Streater wrote:
In article om, bm
wrote:

A not-particularly-technologically-minded friend was pondering whether
or not an electric train covered in PV panels would be viable.

Amazing it doesn't occur to them to wonder about tunnels, night-time,
cuttings where the track is permanently shaded, cloudy days, ...


It'll be fine, just put it on 40,000 ft towers to keep it above the
clouds and avoid tunnels. Nobody needs trains at night so that's OK too.

On Thursday, 30 July 2015 23:38:04 UTC+1, bert wrote:
In article , Chris Hogg
writes
On Wed, 29 Jul 2015 22:14:56 +0100, bert wrote:

In article , Chris Hogg
writes
On Wed, 29 Jul 2015 01:53:31 -0700 (PDT), whisky-dave
wrote:

On Tuesday, 28 July 2015 20:27:15 UTC+1, bert wrote:
In article , Tim Streater
writes
In article ,
harry wrote:

On Monday, 27 July 2015 12:59:58 UTC+1, Tim Streater wrote:

So which items will be turned on and off by others, then, harry? Items
I'll be pleased about, I mean.

Stuff like water heaters and refrigerators. Electric car charging.

I use oil for heating water, and have no electric car. And I don't want
the fridge turned off.

0/10 harry. Must try harder.

The only time you might agree to having the fridge turned off is when it
is at its designated temperature - when its thermostat has switched it
off - doh.
--
bert

But I'd still want the little light on when I open the door, so I can
find things in the dark. But that might only happen when the sun is
out and the wind is blowing.....

Surely, operators of truly 'smart' meters will only bother to control
high-demand items such as DHW, CH and Harry's car*. If power becomes
limited (too many green generators, but no wind or sun), I don't see
the point of switching off the minor stuff. They, by definition, will
only make a minor difference.

*whether that should include cookers will no doubt be debated when the
meters become widely installed. I can see Xmas lunch on a dull,
windless Xmas Day being somewhat delayed, if they do!

There's no such animal. "Smart meter" is a marketing term dreamt up to
persuade people to accept meters which can be read remotely rather than
have a man in a van calling round. As a further part of their bull****
they try to persuade you that by sitting in your garage or under the
stairs watching the meter click over you will somehow magically save
electricity.

It's only the eco-warriors who have seized on the term and tried to
interpret it as something which it is not to try to cover the
deficiencies in their concept of renewable energy being a viable
provider of power.

That's why I called them truly smart meters. The so-called smart
meters of today have very little in common with the sort of device
that could throttle back or switch on or off, your DHW or CH under
instruction from your supplier, depending on the availability of
electricity. It will be a sad day when it happens, but it's Harry's
nirvana!

My point is that as far as I now no-one is actually designing or
developing such a meter. Of course it is theoretically possible but
wholly implausible.
--
bert

Up and running ****-fer-brains!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_demand_management
I believe there's a pilot project in the UK somewhere too.

You're not clever are you?

In article ,
harry writes
On Thursday, 30 July 2015 23:38:04 UTC+1, bert wrote:
In article , Chris Hogg
writes
On Wed, 29 Jul 2015 22:14:56 +0100, bert wrote:

In article , Chris Hogg
writes
On Wed, 29 Jul 2015 01:53:31 -0700 (PDT), whisky-dave
wrote:

On Tuesday, 28 July 2015 20:27:15 UTC+1, bert wrote:
In article , Tim Streater
writes
In article ,
harry wrote:

On Monday, 27 July 2015 12:59:58 UTC+1, Tim Streater wrote:

So which items will be turned on and off by others, then,
harry? Items
I'll be pleased about, I mean.

Stuff like water heaters and refrigerators. Electric car charging.

I use oil for heating water, and have no electric car. And I
don't want
the fridge turned off.

0/10 harry. Must try harder.

The only time you might agree to having the fridge turned off
is when it
is at its designated temperature - when its thermostat has switched it
off - doh.
--
bert

But I'd still want the little light on when I open the door, so I can
find things in the dark. But that might only happen when the sun is
out and the wind is blowing.....

Surely, operators of truly 'smart' meters will only bother to control
high-demand items such as DHW, CH and Harry's car*. If power becomes
limited (too many green generators, but no wind or sun), I don't see
the point of switching off the minor stuff. They, by definition, will
only make a minor difference.

*whether that should include cookers will no doubt be debated when the
meters become widely installed. I can see Xmas lunch on a dull,
windless Xmas Day being somewhat delayed, if they do!

There's no such animal. "Smart meter" is a marketing term dreamt up to
persuade people to accept meters which can be read remotely rather than
have a man in a van calling round. As a further part of their bull****
they try to persuade you that by sitting in your garage or under the
stairs watching the meter click over you will somehow magically save
electricity.

It's only the eco-warriors who have seized on the term and tried to
interpret it as something which it is not to try to cover the
deficiencies in their concept of renewable energy being a viable
provider of power.

That's why I called them truly smart meters. The so-called smart
meters of today have very little in common with the sort of device
that could throttle back or switch on or off, your DHW or CH under
instruction from your supplier, depending on the availability of
electricity. It will be a sad day when it happens, but it's Harry's
nirvana!

My point is that as far as I now no-one is actually designing or
developing such a meter. Of course it is theoretically possible but
wholly implausible.
--
bert

Up and running ****-fer-brains!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_demand_management
I believe there's a pilot project in the UK somewhere too.

You're not clever are you?
Do you ever read what you link to?


--
bert

On 7/30/2015 7:33 PM, harry wrote:
On Thursday, 30 July 2015 18:28:40 UTC+1, dennis @ home wrote:
On 30/07/2015 15:00, Chris Hogg wrote:


That's why I called them truly smart meters. The so-called smart
meters of today have very little in common with the sort of device
that could throttle back or switch on or off, your DHW or CH under
instruction from your supplier, depending on the availability of
electricity. It will be a sad day when it happens, but it's Harry's
nirvana!


Shirly a smart meter could cut your solar panels off if we have too much power.

In the future, when PV power &c is more extensive than at present, that's exactly what they'll do.
It won't be possible to add uncontrolled PV power to the public power supply forever.

However, some time to go before that situation arises.
The expensive fossil fuels will be cut back first.

Solar power does not work without gas at the moment... last time I
looked that was still a fossil fuel.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On Saturday, 1 August 2015 23:12:03 UTC+1, bert wrote:
In article ,
harry writes
On Thursday, 30 July 2015 23:38:04 UTC+1, bert wrote:
In article , Chris Hogg

electricity. It will be a sad day when it happens, but it's Harry's
nirvana!

My point is that as far as I now no-one is actually designing or
developing such a meter. Of course it is theoretically possible but
wholly implausible.
--
bert

Up and running ****-fer-brains!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_demand_management
I believe there's a pilot project in the UK somewhere too.

You're not clever are you?
Do you ever read what you link to?


So you're so brain dead you can't see the significance of the link?

On 01/08/15 23:01, bert wrote:
In article ,
harry writes

Up and running ****-fer-brains!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_demand_management
I believe there's a pilot project in the UK somewhere too.

You're not clever are you?
Do you ever read what you link to?


he's not clever, is he?


--
New Socialism consists essentially in being seen to have your heart in
the right place whilst your head is in the clouds and your hand is in
someone else's pocket.

On 8/1/2015 11:01 PM, bert wrote:
In article ,

You're not clever are you?

Do you ever read what you link to?

Of course he doesn't - it would not be classic harry if his linked
referenced did not contradict the point he was trying to make.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On Sunday, 2 August 2015 20:01:15 UTC+1, John Rumm wrote:
On 8/1/2015 11:01 PM, bert wrote:
In article ,

You're not clever are you?

Do you ever read what you link to?

Of course he doesn't - it would not be classic harry if his linked
referenced did not contradict the point he was trying to make.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

I see you never read it either.
Or is it a case of comprehension?

On 03/08/2015 07:55, harry wrote:
On Sunday, 2 August 2015 20:01:15 UTC+1, John Rumm wrote:
On 8/1/2015 11:01 PM, bert wrote:
In article ,

You're not clever are you?

Do you ever read what you link to?

Of course he doesn't - it would not be classic harry if his linked
referenced did not contradict the point he was trying to make.

[snip sig, that harry (or his software) were too lame to snip]

I see you never read it either.

Since your reply was to bert, I had no actual need to read it. However
based on your past history of posting links that rarely if ever help
support your arguments, I was happy to take his word for it that this
was yet another example of you being lazy and sloppy.

However since you brought it up, I did go and read it. So now I can
confirm it *is* yet another example of you being lazy and sloppy, and
can confirm that article that bears no link to the topic under
discussion[1].

Or is it a case of comprehension?

I have no idea what your problem is, but that would be one plausible
explanation.


[1] For the avoidance of doubt, a short executive summary:

harry made extravagant claims as to all the clever things a smart meter
was going to do. Bert said he was unaware of anyone actually developing
such a meter, and harry responds by posting a link to an article that
makes no mention of smart meters at all.



--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 03/08/15 15:06, John Rumm wrote:
harry made extravagant claims as to all the clever things a smart meter
was going to do. Bert said he was unaware of anyone actually developing
such a meter, and harry responds by posting a link to an article that
makes no mention of smart meters at all.

It's a fairly normal 'green troll' technique, based on the assumption
that no one will actually follow the link:

e.g. http://mietar1.tumblr.com/

for more harry ********


--
New Socialism consists essentially in being seen to have your heart in
the right place whilst your head is in the clouds and your hand is in
someone else's pocket.