Just had an email from my supplier (OVO) saying that a meter needs
replacing and giving me an option to have a smart meter.

Are there any down-sides?

On Fri, 06 Mar 2015 12:57:52 +0000, newshound
wrote:

Just had an email from my supplier (OVO) saying that a meter needs
replacing and giving me an option to have a smart meter.

Are there any down-sides?

It's not just your Samsung Smart TV that ought to give you cause for
concern...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/shop...-recorded.html



....Professor Ross Anderson of Cambridge University Computer
Laboratories has been banging on about smart meters for years. Read
stuff he
http://www.carbonbrief.org/blog/2012...am-on-the-loo/

and he

http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~rja14/Paper...-offswitch.pdf

and he

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/07...er_meter_plan/

...and anywhere else a google search on Ross Anderson Smart Meter may
take you

Nick

On 06/03/2015 13:16, Nick Odell wrote:
On Fri, 06 Mar 2015 12:57:52 +0000, newshound
wrote:

Just had an email from my supplier (OVO) saying that a meter needs
replacing and giving me an option to have a smart meter.

Are there any down-sides?

It's not just your Samsung Smart TV that ought to give you cause for
concern...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/shop...-recorded.html



...Professor Ross Anderson of Cambridge University Computer
Laboratories has been banging on about smart meters for years. Read
stuff he
http://www.carbonbrief.org/blog/2012...am-on-the-loo/

and he

http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~rja14/Paper...-offswitch.pdf

and he

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/07...er_meter_plan/

..and anywhere else a google search on Ross Anderson Smart Meter may
take you

Nick

Thanks. Anderson sounds a bit tinfoil hat brigade to me. So how exactly
do they communicate? And more to the point, is there some sort of
"off-switch" which makes them dumb?

I can see the logic and potential cost saving of automated meter
reading. I'm not *that* bothered about having the display, although I
suppose it could be useful.

If part of the driver is to set up houses so that "payment defaulters
can be switched off at will" then I guess I am a bit more uneasy. Not
that I am ever likely to be a payment defaulter, but if that capability
does exist one could be a victim of organisational error or, at a pinch,
cyber attack.

On 06/03/2015 13:32, newshound wrote:
On 06/03/2015 13:16, Nick Odell wrote:
On Fri, 06 Mar 2015 12:57:52 +0000, newshound
wrote:

Just had an email from my supplier (OVO) saying that a meter needs
replacing and giving me an option to have a smart meter.

Are there any down-sides?

It's not just your Samsung Smart TV that ought to give you cause for
concern...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/shop...-recorded.html


...Professor Ross Anderson of Cambridge University Computer
Laboratories has been banging on about smart meters for years. Read
stuff he
http://www.carbonbrief.org/blog/2012...am-on-the-loo/


and he

http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~rja14/Paper...-offswitch.pdf

and he

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/07...er_meter_plan/

..and anywhere else a google search on Ross Anderson Smart Meter may
take you

Nick

Thanks. Anderson sounds a bit tinfoil hat brigade to me. So how exactly

You could not be more wrong. He is an excellent computer scientist and
his lab has previously demonstrated major cryptographic flaws in PINs,
3D secure and Oyster so what he says needs to be taken seriously.

do they communicate? And more to the point, is there some sort of
"off-switch" which makes them dumb?

The ability to read the meter is fairly harmless. But the ability to for
example disconnect supply creates a strategic vulnerability.

I can see the logic and potential cost saving of automated meter
reading. I'm not *that* bothered about having the display, although I
suppose it could be useful.

If part of the driver is to set up houses so that "payment defaulters
can be switched off at will" then I guess I am a bit more uneasy. Not
that I am ever likely to be a payment defaulter, but if that capability
does exist one could be a victim of organisational error or, at a pinch,
cyber attack.

It is that latter possibility with hostile nation state players doing it
that bothers him. He is definitely not tin foil hat brigade...

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

On 06/03/2015 14:29, Martin Brown wrote:
On 06/03/2015 13:32, newshound wrote:

Thanks. Anderson sounds a bit tinfoil hat brigade to me. So how exactly

You could not be more wrong. He is an excellent computer scientist and
his lab has previously demonstrated major cryptographic flaws in PINs,
3D secure and Oyster so what he says needs to be taken seriously.

Indeed, he has done research on quite a number of significant security
flaws...

Even Bruce recommends him:

https://www.schneier.com/blog/archiv...ty_vulner.html

For another take:

http://krebsonsecurity.com/2012/04/f...ely-to-spread/

do they communicate? And more to the point, is there some sort of
"off-switch" which makes them dumb?

The ability to read the meter is fairly harmless. But the ability to for
example disconnect supply creates a strategic vulnerability.

I can see the logic and potential cost saving of automated meter
reading. I'm not *that* bothered about having the display, although I
suppose it could be useful.

If part of the driver is to set up houses so that "payment defaulters
can be switched off at will" then I guess I am a bit more uneasy. Not
that I am ever likely to be a payment defaulter, but if that capability
does exist one could be a victim of organisational error or, at a pinch,
cyber attack.

It is that latter possibility with hostile nation state players doing it
that bothers him. He is definitely not tin foil hat brigade...

Do you also want to hand your supplier the ability to "manage demand" by
turning you off?


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 06/03/2015 14:29, Martin Brown wrote:
On 06/03/2015 13:32, newshound wrote:


Thanks. Anderson sounds a bit tinfoil hat brigade to me. So how exactly

You could not be more wrong. He is an excellent computer scientist and
his lab has previously demonstrated major cryptographic flaws in PINs,
3D secure and Oyster so what he says needs to be taken seriously.


I did only say "a bit"!

And I'm very happy to be enlightened.

On 2015-03-06, newshound wrote:

On 06/03/2015 13:16, Nick Odell wrote:

...Professor Ross Anderson of Cambridge University Computer
Laboratories has been banging on about smart meters for years. Read
stuff he
http://www.carbonbrief.org/blog/2012...am-on-the-loo/

and he

http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~rja14/Paper...-offswitch.pdf

and he

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/07...er_meter_plan/

..and anywhere else a google search on Ross Anderson Smart Meter may
take you

Nick

Thanks. Anderson sounds a bit tinfoil hat brigade to me.

I don't get that impression at all, but I think it's unfortunate that
they mixed the bit about sensitivity to the "electromagnetic field
from smart meters" in there among Anderson's stuff.

On 06/03/2015 13:32, newshound wrote:

I can see the logic and potential cost saving of automated meter
reading. I'm not *that* bothered about having the display, although I
suppose it could be useful.

Never mind you having the ability - what about if an outsider has it
also? Your electricity usage patterns reveal all kinds of information
about your lifestyle, including when the house is occupied or not.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 06/03/2015 13:16, Nick Odell wrote:

...Professor Ross Anderson of Cambridge University Computer
Laboratories has been banging on about smart meters for years. Read
stuff he
http://www.carbonbrief.org/blog/2012...am-on-the-loo/

That article gets off to a poor start in the third paragraph where it says:

"... Energy meters show which appliances use the most electricity so
that you can plan energy use effectively. Because of the different ways
that appliances use electricity, such data could, for example, reveal
whether you use medical devices or baby monitors, or even show the TV
programme you're watching. And obviously, it can give information on
when you're in or out, or track when you toilet light goes on. So,
technically, it might know when you are on the loo."

So smart meters have magical telepathic powers.

Though I think only some of the later sections of that article refer to
Anderson's work.

and he

http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~rja14/Paper...-offswitch.pdf

Now that is much more relevant - and scary

In section B. - "Prepayment" we have:

"Britains Department of
Energy and Climate Change (DECC) has decided that meter
communications will be centralised at a government head-end
and then relayed to the utilities. DECC will be able to
monitor use, set targets, and even enforce power cuts on a
per-household basis."

Given the government's proven incompetence with IT systems that provides
the hackers with a great incentive to try to break in to the single
centralised point.

In section E. - "Possible application architecture" there's reference to
the possibility of complex non linear tariffs such as for example €œ15p
per kWh from 6pm to 9pm weekdays up to a 2kW limit, then 50p per kWh€�.
We could end up with a charging system as complex as that used for
calling 08xx phone numbers with no idea what the cost of running an
appliance at any particular time would be. For example I could turn on
the washing machine and dishwasher at a time when the meter displays a
low tariff but by the time the heater cuts in we could be in a high
tariff slot and might have gone over the threshold load for even higher
rates.

Taken to extremes the variable tariffs could become dynamic and increase
every time the wind drops or the weather goes cloudy.

Until we all end up with lots of smart appliances that can communicate
with the meter we'd need to keep running round turning things on and off
to match the peaks and troughs in the tariff.

My attitude would be to avoid having a smart meter for as long as I could.

--
Mike Clarke

On 06/03/2015 16:44, Mike Clarke wrote:


My attitude would be to avoid having a smart meter for as long as I could.


Look on the bright side, they can cut off customers on green tariffs
when the wind doesn't blow at the right speed or when its dark.

In message , at
16:44:47 on Fri, 6 Mar 2015, Mike Clarke
remarked:
"... Energy meters show which appliances use the most electricity so
that you can plan energy use effectively. Because of the different ways
that appliances use electricity, such data could, for example, reveal
whether you use medical devices or baby monitors, or even show the TV
programme you're watching. And obviously, it can give information on
when you're in or out, or track when you toilet light goes on. So,
technically, it might know when you are on the loo."

So smart meters have magical telepathic powers.

These sorts of comments are based on an ability to do a waveform
analysis (of your total consumption) and pick out the components using
fairly basic digital filtering methods.

For example, if you see a 2kW spike that lasts around 90 seconds, you
can hypothesise that it's an electric kettle or a toaster. And if it
happens during Coronation Street advertising breaks, more likely the
latter (and will also correlate fairly well with watching ITV).

Other appliances will have their own characteristic components.

The TV programme thing is also related to being able to filter out a
pattern where the power consumption of the TV varies with the brightness
of the picture, and seeing if any of the contemporaneously broadcast TV
channels has a likely candidate.

What I'm not convinced about, however, is whether the smart meter in
your house [one of which was shown on Breakfast TV this morning] can use
those sorts of techniques to tell you how much power your deep freeze is
using (you'd need quite an impressive user interface - and they just
seem to have a few buttons and a small LCD display).

Meanwhile, one of the hiccups with the scheme is apparently that telling
people what the cost of their consumption is *now* [I have had a
clamp-on meter for that for over five years now] results in them using
*more* electricity not less.

For example mine is telling me that my current consumption [the
background on a Saturday mid-morning] is ~600W at a cost of £1.77/day.

That's very little incentive to go round switching off lights just to
save the odd 20p.

Although when the next bill comes in, at typically £250/*quarter* then
it's possible I'll think about how I might get that down by £50.

--
Roland Perry

On 07/03/2015 11:32, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at
16:44:47 on Fri, 6 Mar 2015, Mike Clarke
remarked:
"... Energy meters show which appliances use the most electricity so
that you can plan energy use effectively. Because of the different
ways that appliances use electricity, such data could, for example,
reveal whether you use medical devices or baby monitors, or even show
the TV programme you're watching. And obviously, it can give
information on when you're in or out, or track when you toilet light
goes on. So, technically, it might know when you are on the loo."

So smart meters have magical telepathic powers.

These sorts of comments are based on an ability to do a waveform
analysis (of your total consumption) and pick out the components using
fairly basic digital filtering methods.

For example, if you see a 2kW spike that lasts around 90 seconds, you
can hypothesise that it's an electric kettle or a toaster. And if it
happens during Coronation Street advertising breaks, more likely the
latter (and will also correlate fairly well with watching ITV).

Yes but this would require continuous real time analysis, probably too
complex for a design that just sends power usage for each 30 minute period.

Other appliances will have their own characteristic components.

The TV programme thing is also related to being able to filter out a
pattern where the power consumption of the TV varies with the brightness
of the picture, and seeing if any of the contemporaneously broadcast TV
channels has a likely candidate.

These variations will be very small compared to total usage by
everything else in the house. I doubt if smart meters will have that
sort of computing power. And likely to be unable to sort out what's
happening if 2 TV's are in use in the house at the same time with people
watching different channels.

And as to the claim "track when you toilet light goes on" - it's going
to be a very smart meter to know the difference between the light in the
toilet and any other light in the house.

What I'm not convinced about, however, is whether the smart meter in
your house [one of which was shown on Breakfast TV this morning] can use
those sorts of techniques to tell you how much power your deep freeze is
using

That would probably depend the use of smart devices capable of talking
to the meter.

Meanwhile, one of the hiccups with the scheme is apparently that telling
people what the cost of their consumption is *now* [I have had a
clamp-on meter for that for over five years now] results in them using
*more* electricity not less.

For example mine is telling me that my current consumption [the
background on a Saturday mid-morning] is ~600W at a cost of £1.77/day.

Exactly. instantaneous values are pretty well useless for overall cost
calculation purposes.

--
Mike Clarke

In message , at
12:40:27 on Sat, 7 Mar 2015, Mike Clarke
remarked:

For example, if you see a 2kW spike that lasts around 90 seconds, you
can hypothesise that it's an electric kettle or a toaster. And if it
happens during Coronation Street advertising breaks, more likely the
latter (and will also correlate fairly well with watching ITV).

Yes but this would require continuous real time analysis,

The analysis can be later.

probably too complex for a design that just sends power usage for each
30 minute period.

Yes, it requires the power usage to be transmitted much more often than
that.

Other appliances will have their own characteristic components.

The TV programme thing is also related to being able to filter out a
pattern where the power consumption of the TV varies with the brightness
of the picture, and seeing if any of the contemporaneously broadcast TV
channels has a likely candidate.

These variations will be very small compared to total usage by
everything else in the house.

Every radio receiver is picking up programmes which are very small
compared to the total RF arriving on their aerial.

I doubt if smart meters will have that sort of computing power.

Me too. This is something which I think has to be done centrally.

And likely to be unable to sort out what's happening if 2 TV's are in
use in the house at the same time with people watching different
channels.

That's no different to a radio being able to tune into either of two
weak transmissions.

And as to the claim "track when you toilet light goes on" - it's going
to be a very smart meter to know the difference between the light in
the toilet and any other light in the house.

There's probably some journalist licence there. It could of course be
just as likely as the light in the cupboard under the stairs, assuming
you visit that briefly several times a day.

What I'm not convinced about, however, is whether the smart meter in
your house [one of which was shown on Breakfast TV this morning] can use
those sorts of techniques to tell you how much power your deep freeze is
using

That would probably depend the use of smart devices capable of talking
to the meter.

Hmm, they appear to be promising this data without me having to upgrade
my appliances.

Meanwhile, one of the hiccups with the scheme is apparently that telling
people what the cost of their consumption is *now* [I have had a
clamp-on meter for that for over five years now] results in them using
*more* electricity not less.

For example mine is telling me that my current consumption [the
background on a Saturday mid-morning] is ~600W at a cost of £1.77/day.

Exactly. instantaneous values are pretty well useless for overall cost
calculation purposes.

They are quite useful (eg my quarterly bill is fairly consistently about
twice the displayed cost of my base load), it's just that telling
someone how much it's costing for *today's* consumption gives such a low
figure they are likely to think "so what".
--
Roland Perry

"Mike Clarke" wrote in message
o.uk...
On 07/03/2015 11:32, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at
16:44:47 on Fri, 6 Mar 2015, Mike Clarke
remarked:
"... Energy meters show which appliances use the most electricity so
that you can plan energy use effectively. Because of the different
ways that appliances use electricity, such data could, for example,
reveal whether you use medical devices or baby monitors, or even show
the TV programme you're watching. And obviously, it can give
information on when you're in or out, or track when you toilet light
goes on. So, technically, it might know when you are on the loo."

So smart meters have magical telepathic powers.

These sorts of comments are based on an ability to do a waveform
analysis (of your total consumption) and pick out the components using
fairly basic digital filtering methods.

For example, if you see a 2kW spike that lasts around 90 seconds, you
can hypothesise that it's an electric kettle or a toaster. And if it
happens during Coronation Street advertising breaks, more likely the
latter (and will also correlate fairly well with watching ITV).

Yes but this would require continuous real time analysis, probably too
complex for a design that just sends power usage for each 30 minute
period.

Other appliances will have their own characteristic components.

The TV programme thing is also related to being able to filter out a
pattern where the power consumption of the TV varies with the brightness
of the picture, and seeing if any of the contemporaneously broadcast TV
channels has a likely candidate.

These variations will be very small compared to total usage by everything
else in the house. I doubt if smart meters will have that sort of
computing power. And likely to be unable to sort out what's happening if 2
TV's are in use in the house at the same time with people watching
different channels.

And as to the claim "track when you toilet light goes on" - it's going to
be a very smart meter to know the difference between the light in the
toilet and any other light in the house.

But not necessarily very smart at all with the usage pattern.

There aren't any other lights with that usage pattern.

What I'm not convinced about, however, is whether the smart meter in
your house [one of which was shown on Breakfast TV this morning] can use
those sorts of techniques to tell you how much power your deep freeze is
using

That would probably depend the use of smart devices capable of talking to
the meter.

Meanwhile, one of the hiccups with the scheme is apparently that telling
people what the cost of their consumption is *now* [I have had a
clamp-on meter for that for over five years now] results in them using
*more* electricity not less.

For example mine is telling me that my current consumption [the
background on a Saturday mid-morning] is ~600W at a cost of £1.77/day.

Exactly. instantaneous values are pretty well useless for overall cost
calculation purposes.

But could for example tell you that the way you use the outside
lights could save you useful money if you changed them to LEDs
or that the way you use them means that changing to LEDs isn't
going to save you anything much.

"Roland Perry" wrote in message
...
In message , at
16:44:47 on Fri, 6 Mar 2015, Mike Clarke
remarked:
"... Energy meters show which appliances use the most electricity so that
you can plan energy use effectively. Because of the different ways that
appliances use electricity, such data could, for example, reveal whether
you use medical devices or baby monitors, or even show the TV programme
you're watching. And obviously, it can give information on when you're in
or out, or track when you toilet light goes on. So, technically, it might
know when you are on the loo."

So smart meters have magical telepathic powers.

These sorts of comments are based on an ability to do a waveform analysis
(of your total consumption) and pick out the components using fairly basic
digital filtering methods.

For example, if you see a 2kW spike that lasts around 90 seconds, you can
hypothesise that it's an electric kettle or a toaster. And if it happens
during Coronation Street advertising breaks, more likely the latter (and
will also correlate fairly well with watching ITV).

Other appliances will have their own characteristic components.

The TV programme thing is also related to being able to filter out a
pattern where the power consumption of the TV varies with the brightness
of the picture,

I'm not convinced that it does anymore with modern TVs.

and seeing if any of the contemporaneously broadcast TV
channels has a likely candidate.

What I'm not convinced about, however, is whether the smart meter in your
house [one of which was shown on Breakfast TV this morning] can use those
sorts of techniques to tell you how much power your deep freeze is using
(you'd need quite an impressive user interface - and they just seem to
have a few buttons and a small LCD display).

Meanwhile, one of the hiccups with the scheme is apparently that telling
people what the cost of their consumption is *now* [I have had a clamp-on
meter for that for over five years now] results in them using *more*
electricity not less.

For example mine is telling me that my current consumption [the background
on a Saturday mid-morning] is ~600W at a cost of £1.77/day.

That's very little incentive to go round switching off lights just to save
the odd 20p.

Although when the next bill comes in, at typically £250/*quarter* then
it's possible I'll think about how I might get that down by £50.

In message , at 06:49:15 on Sun, 8 Mar
2015, john james remarked:

The TV programme thing is also related to being able to filter out a
pattern where the power consumption of the TV varies with the
brightness of the picture,

I'm not convinced that it does anymore with modern TVs.

http://www.trustedreviews.com/opinio...ur-hdtv_Page-4

...the dynamic contrast feature carried by most LCD and a few
plasma TVs. The idea behind these is that the TV continually
assesses the content of the picture you're watching, to see how
bright or dark a shot is. And if it detects that a shot is
predominantly dark, it will reduce the TV's light output in a
bid to make blacks look less grey. Then, when it detects a scene
that's brighter, it will up the light output again to give this
scene more intensity.
--
Roland Perry

On 06/03/2015 12:57, newshound wrote:
Just had an email from my supplier (OVO) saying that a meter needs
replacing and giving me an option to have a smart meter.

Are there any down-sides?

In the past 14 months, two out of two factory units with 3-phase smart
meters have had them fail, leaving no record of the readings. The older
ones with rotating wheel digital displays in the other factories are
still going strong.

--
Colin Bignell

On 06/03/2015 13:22, Nightjar "cpb"@ wrote:
On 06/03/2015 12:57, newshound wrote:
Just had an email from my supplier (OVO) saying that a meter needs
replacing and giving me an option to have a smart meter.

Are there any down-sides?

In the past 14 months, two out of two factory units with 3-phase smart
meters have had them fail, leaving no record of the readings. The older
ones with rotating wheel digital displays in the other factories are
still going strong.


Sounds like an advantage to me!

On 06/03/2015 13:40, newshound wrote:
On 06/03/2015 13:22, Nightjar "cpb"@ wrote:
On 06/03/2015 12:57, newshound wrote:
Just had an email from my supplier (OVO) saying that a meter needs
replacing and giving me an option to have a smart meter.

Are there any down-sides?

In the past 14 months, two out of two factory units with 3-phase smart
meters have had them fail, leaving no record of the readings. The older
ones with rotating wheel digital displays in the other factories are
still going strong.


Sounds like an advantage to me!

Not when the supplier over-estimates the reading and I have to try to
get back over £3k they took by direct debit.

--
Colin Bignell

In article ,
Nightjar cpb@ insert my surname here.me.uk wrote:
In the past 14 months, two out of two factory units with 3-phase smart
meters have had them fail, leaving no record of the readings. The older
ones with rotating wheel digital displays in the other factories are
still going strong.

Crikey. I've had a non smart digital meter for many years.

--
*If you must choose between two evils, pick the one you've never tried before

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

newshound wrote:
Just had an email from my supplier (OVO) saying that a meter needs
replacing and giving me an option to have a smart meter.

Are there any down-sides?

Are there any advantages?

--
Chris Green
·

wrote:
newshound wrote:
Just had an email from my supplier (OVO) saying that a meter needs
replacing and giving me an option to have a smart meter.

Are there any down-sides?

Are there any advantages?

I like the simplicity of getting a bill on about the 3rd of every month,
covering the actual consumption of gas and electricity in the previous
month.

--
Mike Barnes
Cheshire, England

Mike Barnes wrote:
wrote:
newshound wrote:
Just had an email from my supplier (OVO) saying that a meter needs
replacing and giving me an option to have a smart meter.

Are there any down-sides?

Are there any advantages?

I like the simplicity of getting a bill on about the 3rd of every
month, covering the actual consumption of gas and electricity in the
previous month.

+1

plus (if meter is within house) fewer visits from meter readers and less
chance of the meter having to be changed again when (if) the compulsory
roll-out of smart meters comes around.

--
Robin
reply to address is (meant to be) valid

Mike Barnes wrote:
wrote:
newshound wrote:
Just had an email from my supplier (OVO) saying that a meter needs
replacing and giving me an option to have a smart meter.

Are there any down-sides?

Are there any advantages?

I like the simplicity of getting a bill on about the 3rd of every month,
covering the actual consumption of gas and electricity in the previous
month.

Do you like the possibility that, through no fault of your own, your
supplies could be turned off by supplier error or malicious hacking of
the network by a third party?

"Bob Minchin" wrote in message
...
Mike Barnes wrote:
wrote:
newshound wrote:
Just had an email from my supplier (OVO) saying that a meter needs
replacing and giving me an option to have a smart meter.

Are there any down-sides?

Are there any advantages?

I like the simplicity of getting a bill on about the 3rd of every month,
covering the actual consumption of gas and electricity in the previous
month.

Do you like the possibility that, through no fault of your own, your
supplies could be turned off by supplier error or malicious hacking of the
network by a third party?


The electrical supply to the meter is not turned off. So you phone the
electric co to sort it out within in an hour or you DIY a solution getting
you power back on without the meter.

--
Adam

The electrical supply to the meter is not turned off. So you phone the
electric co to sort it out within in an hour or you DIY a solution
getting you power back on without the meter.

A toolbox with side cutters, screwdrivers etc does happen to live in the
cupboard under the stairs with the electricity meter, where there
happens also to be a used Henley box with holes for 2 sets of 25mm
tails. I figure if they cut me off for no good reason, or the hackers
take down half the country, they'll have better things to do than pursue
me for cutting a few seals.
--
Robin
reply to address is (meant to be) valid

On 06/03/2015 14:39, Bob Minchin wrote:

Do you like the possibility that, through no fault of your own, your
supplies could be turned off by supplier error or malicious hacking of
the network by a third party?

They can do that now, how do you think they managed rolling power cuts
in the past?

On 06/03/15 20:02, Dennis@home wrote:
On 06/03/2015 14:39, Bob Minchin wrote:

Do you like the possibility that, through no fault of your own, your
supplies could be turned off by supplier error or malicious hacking of
the network by a third party?

They can do that now, how do you think they managed rolling power cuts
in the past?

They cut off entire towns at the substations.

Did you think they ran around to everyone's houses and pulled the cutout
fuse?

"Bob Minchin" wrote in message
...
Mike Barnes wrote:
wrote:
newshound wrote:
Just had an email from my supplier (OVO) saying that a meter needs
replacing and giving me an option to have a smart meter.

Are there any down-sides?

Are there any advantages?

I like the simplicity of getting a bill on about the 3rd of every month,
covering the actual consumption of gas and electricity in the previous
month.

Do you like the possibility that, through no fault of your own, your
supplies could be turned off by supplier error or malicious hacking of the
network by a third party?

I dont see that the risk is high enough to worry about.

My off peak system has been remotely controllable for
decades now so the supplier can decide when the off
peak hot water and electrical storage heater is charged
time of day wise and its never been done in error or
maliciously by a third party.

On 06/03/2015 14:25, Mike Barnes wrote:

I like the simplicity of getting a bill on about the 3rd of every month,
covering the actual consumption of gas and electricity in the previous
month.

That's what I have without a smart meter. I submit meter readings online
on the 21st of the month and a few days later I get an email saying that
the PDF bill for the period from the 22nd of the previous month is
available for me online. A smart meter would only remove the need for
the trivial task of me reading the meters once a month.

--
Mike Clarke

"Mike Clarke" wrote in message
o.uk...
On 06/03/2015 14:25, Mike Barnes wrote:

I like the simplicity of getting a bill on about the 3rd of every month,
covering the actual consumption of gas and electricity in the previous
month.

That's what I have without a smart meter. I submit meter readings online
on the 21st of the month and a few days later I get an email saying that
the PDF bill for the period from the 22nd of the previous month is
available for me online. A smart meter would only remove the need for the
trivial task of me reading the meters once a month.

+1
Also I like to keep an eye on monthly consumption so I would probably still
be taking readings anyway. Being old school I have an inherent mistrust of
(1) anybody putting their hand in my pocket and (2) technology that cannot
be trusted.
Nick.

In message , Nick
writes

"Mike Clarke" wrote in message
news:SomdnUI6X9w0WmTJnZ2dnUVZ8jidnZ2d@brightview. co.uk...
On 06/03/2015 14:25, Mike Barnes wrote:

I like the simplicity of getting a bill on about the 3rd of every month,
covering the actual consumption of gas and electricity in the previous
month.

That's what I have without a smart meter. I submit meter readings online
on the 21st of the month and a few days later I get an email saying that
the PDF bill for the period from the 22nd of the previous month is
available for me online. A smart meter would only remove the need for the
trivial task of me reading the meters once a month.

+1
Also I like to keep an eye on monthly consumption so I would probably still
be taking readings anyway. Being old school I have an inherent mistrust of
(1) anybody putting their hand in my pocket and (2) technology that cannot
be trusted.
Nick.


+1. The OP may wish to know that we ignored a hand-delivered "sorry you
weren't in" letter in the post-box about a year ago asking us to ring
them to get a smart meter. Not heard anything since, thank Darwin.

Also, if you want to support your local organic cannabis farm, I
understand they compare smart meter readings with the street sub-station
to see if anyone has accidentally bypassed their meter.
--
Nick (=----)

On 2015-03-06, Nick wrote:


"Mike Clarke" wrote in message
o.uk...
On 06/03/2015 14:25, Mike Barnes wrote:

I like the simplicity of getting a bill on about the 3rd of every month,
covering the actual consumption of gas and electricity in the previous
month.

That's what I have without a smart meter. I submit meter readings online
on the 21st of the month and a few days later I get an email saying that
the PDF bill for the period from the 22nd of the previous month is
available for me online. A smart meter would only remove the need for the
trivial task of me reading the meters once a month.
+1
Also I like to keep an eye on monthly consumption so I would probably still
be taking readings anyway. Being old school I have an inherent mistrust of
(1) anybody putting their hand in my pocket and (2) technology that cannot
be trusted.
Nick.

+2

In article ,
Mike Clarke writes:
On 06/03/2015 14:25, Mike Barnes wrote:

I like the simplicity of getting a bill on about the 3rd of every month,
covering the actual consumption of gas and electricity in the previous
month.

That's what I have without a smart meter. I submit meter readings online
on the 21st of the month and a few days later I get an email saying that
the PDF bill for the period from the 22nd of the previous month is
available for me online. A smart meter would only remove the need for
the trivial task of me reading the meters once a month.

Interesting - what supplier is this? I am not aware that mine provides
any monthy direct debit scheme that is based on real usage, rather than
an estimate which results in me lending them large amounts of money at
a zero interest rate.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

On 06/03/2015 19:52, Andrew Gabriel wrote:

Interesting - what supplier is this? I am not aware that mine provides
any monthy direct debit scheme that is based on real usage, rather than
an estimate which results in me lending them large amounts of money at
a zero interest rate.

OVO energy. Although they take a fixed monthly direct debit like all the
others they give 3% interest on any excess credit balance. They also
have a "Flexible Direct Debit Plan" which apparently gives the customer
more control over how much to pay each month but I'm happy with 3%
return on any overpayment.

--
Mike Clarke

On 06/03/2015 19:52, Andrew Gabriel wrote:


Interesting - what supplier is this? I am not aware that mine provides
any monthy direct debit scheme that is based on real usage, rather than
an estimate which results in me lending them large amounts of money at
a zero interest rate.


British Gas. I've been providing monthly meter readings and getting
accurate monthly direct debited bills as a result for the past 2 years.

However, my contract with BG has just expired and the best deal I can
get from them [1] is around 11% more expensive than I was paying so I'm
in the process of moving supplier.

[1] One other "supplier" gives a saving around £220. The small print
says that BG is their source and the bills come from BG trading. I'm
not going to give them my trade this way if I cannot get the same deal
as an existing customer.

Luckily there are plenty of other alternatives with savings of £220 to
£200 based on my average energy consumption figures for the past five years.



--
mailto: news {at} admac {dot] myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

In message , at 19:52:14 on Fri, 6 Mar 2015,
Andrew Gabriel remarked:
I like the simplicity of getting a bill on about the 3rd of every month,
covering the actual consumption of gas and electricity in the previous
month.

That's what I have without a smart meter. I submit meter readings online
on the 21st of the month and a few days later I get an email saying that
the PDF bill for the period from the 22nd of the previous month is
available for me online. A smart meter would only remove the need for
the trivial task of me reading the meters once a month.

Interesting - what supplier is this? I am not aware that mine provides
any monthy direct debit scheme that is based on real usage, rather than
an estimate which results in me lending them large amounts of money at
a zero interest rate.

British Gas keep nagging me to go onto such a scheme. But I refuse
because it's just another thing to add to the list of monthly
tasks-for-other-people (and which I'll forget, or not be at home that
week etc).

A quarterly post-paid bill is much better (that way they are lending me
energy, not me lending them money).

Are you on a monthly-DD-estimate tariff because you've been told it's
cheaper?
--
Roland Perry

On Fri, 6 Mar 2015 19:52:14 +0000 (UTC), Andrew Gabriel wrote:

Interesting - what supplier is this? I am not aware that mine provides
any monthy direct debit scheme that is based on real usage, rather than
an estimate which results in me lending them large amounts of money at
a zero interest rate.

Your fixed DD is set to high, complain they'll set it to a more
realistic level. Helps if you have past consumption figures to feed a
spreadsheet to work out what it should be.

Personally I prefer the fixed DD but then with E7 consumption varies
from 70kWhr/day down to 20 depending on season. Evening out that
fluctuation (approx £75/month winter to summer) makes domestic budget
management some what simpler. B-)

--
Cheers
Dave.

On 06/03/15 12:57, newshound wrote:
Just had an email from my supplier (OVO) saying that a meter needs
replacing and giving me an option to have a smart meter.

Are there any down-sides?

Can you transfer your supply to another provider? Not all providers can
work with foreign smart meters.

On 06/03/2015 12:57, newshound wrote:
Just had an email from my supplier (OVO) saying that a meter needs
replacing and giving me an option to have a smart meter.

Are there any down-sides?


Ask them if the meter they are going to supply compatible with other
energy suppliers that you may wish to move to in the future. A
non-smart meter may mean you have more choice for moving.

--
mailto: news {at} admac {dot] myzen {dot} co {dot} uk