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Smart meters
"newshound" wrote in message o.uk... Just had an email from my supplier (OVO) saying that a meter needs replacing and giving me an option to have a smart meter. Are there any down-sides? They are the precursor the the Smart Grid. Which is about encouraging/discouraging people to use electctricity are certain times by charging more/less. ie, when there is plenty of electricity, it will be cheap. When there is a dearth, it will be expensive. Opportunity for the well informed to save money. Also they will conrol power exported from domestic PV panels/other renewable stuff. It's comng whether you like it or not. Everyone will have one. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smart_grid |
Smart meters
Just had an email from my supplier (OVO) saying that a meter needs
replacing and giving me an option to have a smart meter. Are there any down-sides? |
Smart meters
On 06/03/2015 13:01, dave wrote:
On Fri, 06 Mar 2015 12:57:52 +0000, newshound wrote: Just had an email from my supplier (OVO) saying that a meter needs replacing and giving me an option to have a smart meter. Are there any down-sides? Is there an option *not* to have a smart meter? Yes, apparently; it's free either way, but you have to ask for a Smart meter explicitly. It seems to be one "meter" for both gas and electricity (obviously, it must have separate parts). |
Smart meters
On Fri, 06 Mar 2015 12:57:52 +0000, newshound
wrote: Just had an email from my supplier (OVO) saying that a meter needs replacing and giving me an option to have a smart meter. Are there any down-sides? It's not just your Samsung Smart TV that ought to give you cause for concern... http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/shop...-recorded.html ....Professor Ross Anderson of Cambridge University Computer Laboratories has been banging on about smart meters for years. Read stuff he http://www.carbonbrief.org/blog/2012...am-on-the-loo/ and he http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~rja14/Paper...-offswitch.pdf and he http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/07...er_meter_plan/ ...and anywhere else a google search on Ross Anderson Smart Meter may take you Nick |
Smart meters
On 06/03/2015 12:57, newshound wrote:
Just had an email from my supplier (OVO) saying that a meter needs replacing and giving me an option to have a smart meter. Are there any down-sides? In the past 14 months, two out of two factory units with 3-phase smart meters have had them fail, leaving no record of the readings. The older ones with rotating wheel digital displays in the other factories are still going strong. -- Colin Bignell |
Smart meters
On 06/03/2015 13:16, Nick Odell wrote:
On Fri, 06 Mar 2015 12:57:52 +0000, newshound wrote: Just had an email from my supplier (OVO) saying that a meter needs replacing and giving me an option to have a smart meter. Are there any down-sides? It's not just your Samsung Smart TV that ought to give you cause for concern... http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/shop...-recorded.html ...Professor Ross Anderson of Cambridge University Computer Laboratories has been banging on about smart meters for years. Read stuff he http://www.carbonbrief.org/blog/2012...am-on-the-loo/ and he http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~rja14/Paper...-offswitch.pdf and he http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/07...er_meter_plan/ ..and anywhere else a google search on Ross Anderson Smart Meter may take you Nick Thanks. Anderson sounds a bit tinfoil hat brigade to me. So how exactly do they communicate? And more to the point, is there some sort of "off-switch" which makes them dumb? I can see the logic and potential cost saving of automated meter reading. I'm not *that* bothered about having the display, although I suppose it could be useful. If part of the driver is to set up houses so that "payment defaulters can be switched off at will" then I guess I am a bit more uneasy. Not that I am ever likely to be a payment defaulter, but if that capability does exist one could be a victim of organisational error or, at a pinch, cyber attack. |
Smart meters
On 06/03/2015 13:22, Nightjar "cpb"@ wrote:
On 06/03/2015 12:57, newshound wrote: Just had an email from my supplier (OVO) saying that a meter needs replacing and giving me an option to have a smart meter. Are there any down-sides? In the past 14 months, two out of two factory units with 3-phase smart meters have had them fail, leaving no record of the readings. The older ones with rotating wheel digital displays in the other factories are still going strong. Sounds like an advantage to me! |
Smart meters
On 06/03/2015 13:40, newshound wrote:
On 06/03/2015 13:22, Nightjar "cpb"@ wrote: On 06/03/2015 12:57, newshound wrote: Just had an email from my supplier (OVO) saying that a meter needs replacing and giving me an option to have a smart meter. Are there any down-sides? In the past 14 months, two out of two factory units with 3-phase smart meters have had them fail, leaving no record of the readings. The older ones with rotating wheel digital displays in the other factories are still going strong. Sounds like an advantage to me! Not when the supplier over-estimates the reading and I have to try to get back over £3k they took by direct debit. -- Colin Bignell |
Smart meters
newshound wrote:
Just had an email from my supplier (OVO) saying that a meter needs replacing and giving me an option to have a smart meter. Are there any down-sides? Are there any advantages? -- Chris Green · |
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On 06/03/2015 13:32, newshound wrote:
On 06/03/2015 13:16, Nick Odell wrote: On Fri, 06 Mar 2015 12:57:52 +0000, newshound wrote: Just had an email from my supplier (OVO) saying that a meter needs replacing and giving me an option to have a smart meter. Are there any down-sides? It's not just your Samsung Smart TV that ought to give you cause for concern... http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/shop...-recorded.html ...Professor Ross Anderson of Cambridge University Computer Laboratories has been banging on about smart meters for years. Read stuff he http://www.carbonbrief.org/blog/2012...am-on-the-loo/ and he http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~rja14/Paper...-offswitch.pdf and he http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/07...er_meter_plan/ ..and anywhere else a google search on Ross Anderson Smart Meter may take you Nick Thanks. Anderson sounds a bit tinfoil hat brigade to me. So how exactly You could not be more wrong. He is an excellent computer scientist and his lab has previously demonstrated major cryptographic flaws in PINs, 3D secure and Oyster so what he says needs to be taken seriously. do they communicate? And more to the point, is there some sort of "off-switch" which makes them dumb? The ability to read the meter is fairly harmless. But the ability to for example disconnect supply creates a strategic vulnerability. I can see the logic and potential cost saving of automated meter reading. I'm not *that* bothered about having the display, although I suppose it could be useful. If part of the driver is to set up houses so that "payment defaulters can be switched off at will" then I guess I am a bit more uneasy. Not that I am ever likely to be a payment defaulter, but if that capability does exist one could be a victim of organisational error or, at a pinch, cyber attack. It is that latter possibility with hostile nation state players doing it that bothers him. He is definitely not tin foil hat brigade... -- Regards, Martin Brown |
Smart meters
On 06/03/15 12:57, newshound wrote:
Just had an email from my supplier (OVO) saying that a meter needs replacing and giving me an option to have a smart meter. Are there any down-sides? Can you transfer your supply to another provider? Not all providers can work with foreign smart meters. |
Smart meters
Mike Barnes wrote:
wrote: newshound wrote: Just had an email from my supplier (OVO) saying that a meter needs replacing and giving me an option to have a smart meter. Are there any down-sides? Are there any advantages? I like the simplicity of getting a bill on about the 3rd of every month, covering the actual consumption of gas and electricity in the previous month. +1 plus (if meter is within house) fewer visits from meter readers and less chance of the meter having to be changed again when (if) the compulsory roll-out of smart meters comes around. -- Robin reply to address is (meant to be) valid |
Smart meters
Mike Barnes wrote:
wrote: newshound wrote: Just had an email from my supplier (OVO) saying that a meter needs replacing and giving me an option to have a smart meter. Are there any down-sides? Are there any advantages? I like the simplicity of getting a bill on about the 3rd of every month, covering the actual consumption of gas and electricity in the previous month. Do you like the possibility that, through no fault of your own, your supplies could be turned off by supplier error or malicious hacking of the network by a third party? |
Smart meters
On 2015-03-06, newshound wrote:
On 06/03/2015 13:16, Nick Odell wrote: ...Professor Ross Anderson of Cambridge University Computer Laboratories has been banging on about smart meters for years. Read stuff he http://www.carbonbrief.org/blog/2012...am-on-the-loo/ and he http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~rja14/Paper...-offswitch.pdf and he http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/07...er_meter_plan/ ..and anywhere else a google search on Ross Anderson Smart Meter may take you Nick Thanks. Anderson sounds a bit tinfoil hat brigade to me. I don't get that impression at all, but I think it's unfortunate that they mixed the bit about sensitivity to the "electromagnetic field from smart meters" in there among Anderson's stuff. |
Smart meters
In article ,
Nightjar cpb@ insert my surname here.me.uk wrote: In the past 14 months, two out of two factory units with 3-phase smart meters have had them fail, leaving no record of the readings. The older ones with rotating wheel digital displays in the other factories are still going strong. Crikey. I've had a non smart digital meter for many years. -- *If you must choose between two evils, pick the one you've never tried before Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
Smart meters
On 06/03/2015 14:25, Mike Barnes wrote:
I like the simplicity of getting a bill on about the 3rd of every month, covering the actual consumption of gas and electricity in the previous month. That's what I have without a smart meter. I submit meter readings online on the 21st of the month and a few days later I get an email saying that the PDF bill for the period from the 22nd of the previous month is available for me online. A smart meter would only remove the need for the trivial task of me reading the meters once a month. -- Mike Clarke |
Smart meters
"Mike Clarke" wrote in message o.uk... On 06/03/2015 14:25, Mike Barnes wrote: I like the simplicity of getting a bill on about the 3rd of every month, covering the actual consumption of gas and electricity in the previous month. That's what I have without a smart meter. I submit meter readings online on the 21st of the month and a few days later I get an email saying that the PDF bill for the period from the 22nd of the previous month is available for me online. A smart meter would only remove the need for the trivial task of me reading the meters once a month. +1 Also I like to keep an eye on monthly consumption so I would probably still be taking readings anyway. Being old school I have an inherent mistrust of (1) anybody putting their hand in my pocket and (2) technology that cannot be trusted. Nick. |
Smart meters
On 06/03/2015 12:57, newshound wrote:
Just had an email from my supplier (OVO) saying that a meter needs replacing and giving me an option to have a smart meter. Are there any down-sides? Ask them if the meter they are going to supply compatible with other energy suppliers that you may wish to move to in the future. A non-smart meter may mean you have more choice for moving. -- mailto: news {at} admac {dot] myzen {dot} co {dot} uk |
Smart meters
On 2015-03-06, Nick wrote:
"Mike Clarke" wrote in message o.uk... On 06/03/2015 14:25, Mike Barnes wrote: I like the simplicity of getting a bill on about the 3rd of every month, covering the actual consumption of gas and electricity in the previous month. That's what I have without a smart meter. I submit meter readings online on the 21st of the month and a few days later I get an email saying that the PDF bill for the period from the 22nd of the previous month is available for me online. A smart meter would only remove the need for the trivial task of me reading the meters once a month. +1 Also I like to keep an eye on monthly consumption so I would probably still be taking readings anyway. Being old school I have an inherent mistrust of (1) anybody putting their hand in my pocket and (2) technology that cannot be trusted. Nick. +2 |
Smart meters
In message , Nick
writes "Mike Clarke" wrote in message news:SomdnUI6X9w0WmTJnZ2dnUVZ8jidnZ2d@brightview. co.uk... On 06/03/2015 14:25, Mike Barnes wrote: I like the simplicity of getting a bill on about the 3rd of every month, covering the actual consumption of gas and electricity in the previous month. That's what I have without a smart meter. I submit meter readings online on the 21st of the month and a few days later I get an email saying that the PDF bill for the period from the 22nd of the previous month is available for me online. A smart meter would only remove the need for the trivial task of me reading the meters once a month. +1 Also I like to keep an eye on monthly consumption so I would probably still be taking readings anyway. Being old school I have an inherent mistrust of (1) anybody putting their hand in my pocket and (2) technology that cannot be trusted. Nick. +1. The OP may wish to know that we ignored a hand-delivered "sorry you weren't in" letter in the post-box about a year ago asking us to ring them to get a smart meter. Not heard anything since, thank Darwin. Also, if you want to support your local organic cannabis farm, I understand they compare smart meter readings with the street sub-station to see if anyone has accidentally bypassed their meter. -- Nick (=----) |
Smart meters
On 06/03/2015 13:16, Nick Odell wrote:
...Professor Ross Anderson of Cambridge University Computer Laboratories has been banging on about smart meters for years. Read stuff he http://www.carbonbrief.org/blog/2012...am-on-the-loo/ That article gets off to a poor start in the third paragraph where it says: "... Energy meters show which appliances use the most electricity so that you can plan energy use effectively. Because of the different ways that appliances use electricity, such data could, for example, reveal whether you use medical devices or baby monitors, or even show the TV programme you're watching. And obviously, it can give information on when you're in or out, or track when you toilet light goes on. So, technically, it might know when you are on the loo." So smart meters have magical telepathic powers. Though I think only some of the later sections of that article refer to Anderson's work. and he http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~rja14/Paper...-offswitch.pdf Now that is much more relevant - and scary In section B. - "Prepayment" we have: "Britains Department of Energy and Climate Change (DECC) has decided that meter communications will be centralised at a government head-end and then relayed to the utilities. DECC will be able to monitor use, set targets, and even enforce power cuts on a per-household basis." Given the government's proven incompetence with IT systems that provides the hackers with a great incentive to try to break in to the single centralised point. In section E. - "Possible application architecture" there's reference to the possibility of complex non linear tariffs such as for example 15p per kWh from 6pm to 9pm weekdays up to a 2kW limit, then 50p per kWh. We could end up with a charging system as complex as that used for calling 08xx phone numbers with no idea what the cost of running an appliance at any particular time would be. For example I could turn on the washing machine and dishwasher at a time when the meter displays a low tariff but by the time the heater cuts in we could be in a high tariff slot and might have gone over the threshold load for even higher rates. Taken to extremes the variable tariffs could become dynamic and increase every time the wind drops or the weather goes cloudy. Until we all end up with lots of smart appliances that can communicate with the meter we'd need to keep running round turning things on and off to match the peaks and troughs in the tariff. My attitude would be to avoid having a smart meter for as long as I could. -- Mike Clarke |
Smart meters
On 06/03/2015 14:29, Martin Brown wrote:
On 06/03/2015 13:32, newshound wrote: Thanks. Anderson sounds a bit tinfoil hat brigade to me. So how exactly You could not be more wrong. He is an excellent computer scientist and his lab has previously demonstrated major cryptographic flaws in PINs, 3D secure and Oyster so what he says needs to be taken seriously. Indeed, he has done research on quite a number of significant security flaws... Even Bruce recommends him: https://www.schneier.com/blog/archiv...ty_vulner.html For another take: http://krebsonsecurity.com/2012/04/f...ely-to-spread/ do they communicate? And more to the point, is there some sort of "off-switch" which makes them dumb? The ability to read the meter is fairly harmless. But the ability to for example disconnect supply creates a strategic vulnerability. I can see the logic and potential cost saving of automated meter reading. I'm not *that* bothered about having the display, although I suppose it could be useful. If part of the driver is to set up houses so that "payment defaulters can be switched off at will" then I guess I am a bit more uneasy. Not that I am ever likely to be a payment defaulter, but if that capability does exist one could be a victim of organisational error or, at a pinch, cyber attack. It is that latter possibility with hostile nation state players doing it that bothers him. He is definitely not tin foil hat brigade... Do you also want to hand your supplier the ability to "manage demand" by turning you off? -- Cheers, John. /================================================== ===============\ | Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk | |-----------------------------------------------------------------| | John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk | \================================================= ================/ |
Smart meters
A non-smart meter may mean you have more choice for moving.
A few suppliers did cause problems for people with smart meters in the early days for reasons best known to them. It's hard to see why. If another supplier would accept a non-smart meter why reject a smart meter (even if they cannot use it in smart mode) when all smart meters can still be read by eyeballs? In any event, OFGEM require suppliers to take on customer and use the smart meter in dumb mode. -- Robin reply to address is (meant to be) valid |
Smart meters
On 06/03/2015 13:32, newshound wrote:
I can see the logic and potential cost saving of automated meter reading. I'm not *that* bothered about having the display, although I suppose it could be useful. Never mind you having the ability - what about if an outsider has it also? Your electricity usage patterns reveal all kinds of information about your lifestyle, including when the house is occupied or not. -- Cheers, John. /================================================== ===============\ | Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk | |-----------------------------------------------------------------| | John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk | \================================================= ================/ |
Smart meters
On 06/03/2015 12:57, newshound wrote:
Just had an email from my supplier (OVO) saying that a meter needs replacing and giving me an option to have a smart meter. Are there any down-sides? a) Your supply can be turned off remotely. b) If the meter is read frequently remotely then someone may be able to work out when your property is unoccupied. c) The smart meter may not be compatible with a new supplier should you want to move. Some time ago (mid 70s) I got a very large gas bill. I relaxed a bit when I found that the meter had been misread. I decided not to complain, but I did have to ring up and ask if they would accept a partial payment which they agreed to. -- Michael Chare |
Smart meters
On 06/03/2015 17:26, Michael Chare wrote:
On 06/03/2015 12:57, newshound wrote: Just had an email from my supplier (OVO) saying that a meter needs replacing and giving me an option to have a smart meter. Are there any down-sides? a) Your supply can be turned off remotely. b) If the meter is read frequently remotely then someone may be able to work out when your property is unoccupied. c) The smart meter may not be compatible with a new supplier should you want to move. Some time ago (mid 70s) I got a very large gas bill. I relaxed a bit when I found that the meter had been misread. I decided not to complain, but I did have to ring up and ask if they would accept a partial payment which they agreed to. Used to have that problem with our VH. Central billing system thought it had a 6 digit meter but it actually had only 5 digits. Clueless cut price opo zero pads the 5 digits at the wrong end - resulting in a bill for half the national debt. They turned up wanting to disconnect us at one point whilst we were in dispute over this clearly insane bill! It didn't seem to occur to them at all that the new meter reading was roughly 10x the expected reading based on previous quarterly usage!!! With a smart meter they would just do it with the click of the mouse. We now have a nice new dumb meter with the right number of digits... -- Regards, Martin Brown |
Smart meters
"Bob Minchin" wrote in message
... Mike Barnes wrote: wrote: newshound wrote: Just had an email from my supplier (OVO) saying that a meter needs replacing and giving me an option to have a smart meter. Are there any down-sides? Are there any advantages? I like the simplicity of getting a bill on about the 3rd of every month, covering the actual consumption of gas and electricity in the previous month. Do you like the possibility that, through no fault of your own, your supplies could be turned off by supplier error or malicious hacking of the network by a third party? The electrical supply to the meter is not turned off. So you phone the electric co to sort it out within in an hour or you DIY a solution getting you power back on without the meter. -- Adam |
Smart meters
"newshound" wrote in message
o.uk... On 06/03/2015 13:01, dave wrote: On Fri, 06 Mar 2015 12:57:52 +0000, newshound wrote: Just had an email from my supplier (OVO) saying that a meter needs replacing and giving me an option to have a smart meter. Are there any down-sides? Is there an option *not* to have a smart meter? Yes, apparently; it's free -- Adam |
Smart meters
The electrical supply to the meter is not turned off. So you phone the
electric co to sort it out within in an hour or you DIY a solution getting you power back on without the meter. A toolbox with side cutters, screwdrivers etc does happen to live in the cupboard under the stairs with the electricity meter, where there happens also to be a used Henley box with holes for 2 sets of 25mm tails. I figure if they cut me off for no good reason, or the hackers take down half the country, they'll have better things to do than pursue me for cutting a few seals. -- Robin reply to address is (meant to be) valid |
Smart meters
"Nick" wrote in message
... Also, if you want to support your local organic cannabis farm, I understand they compare smart meter readings with the street sub-station to see if anyone has accidentally bypassed their meter. Don't be silly. Sub stations are not metered. -- Adam |
Smart meters
On 06/03/15 18:59, ARW wrote:
"Nick" wrote in message ... Also, if you want to support your local organic cannabis farm, I understand they compare smart meter readings with the street sub-station to see if anyone has accidentally bypassed their meter. Don't be silly. Sub stations are not metered. I have seen current transformers on the HV feed phase cables to the odd one (street substation) - but I don't honestly know if those feed to anything that records anything... |
Smart meters
In article ,
Mike Clarke writes: On 06/03/2015 14:25, Mike Barnes wrote: I like the simplicity of getting a bill on about the 3rd of every month, covering the actual consumption of gas and electricity in the previous month. That's what I have without a smart meter. I submit meter readings online on the 21st of the month and a few days later I get an email saying that the PDF bill for the period from the 22nd of the previous month is available for me online. A smart meter would only remove the need for the trivial task of me reading the meters once a month. Interesting - what supplier is this? I am not aware that mine provides any monthy direct debit scheme that is based on real usage, rather than an estimate which results in me lending them large amounts of money at a zero interest rate. -- Andrew Gabriel [email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup] |
Smart meters
In article ,
"Robin" writes: In any event, OFGEM require suppliers to take on customer and use the smart meter in dumb mode. Well, that certainly isn't working. Radio 4 did a program on it in last few weeks. OFGEM were part of it and just said, AFAICR, yes it's a known problem preventing people changing supplier. -- Andrew Gabriel [email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup] |
Smart meters
On 06/03/2015 16:44, Mike Clarke wrote:
My attitude would be to avoid having a smart meter for as long as I could. Look on the bright side, they can cut off customers on green tariffs when the wind doesn't blow at the right speed or when its dark. |
Smart meters
On 06/03/2015 14:39, Bob Minchin wrote:
Do you like the possibility that, through no fault of your own, your supplies could be turned off by supplier error or malicious hacking of the network by a third party? They can do that now, how do you think they managed rolling power cuts in the past? |
Smart meters
On 06/03/15 20:02, Dennis@home wrote:
On 06/03/2015 14:39, Bob Minchin wrote: Do you like the possibility that, through no fault of your own, your supplies could be turned off by supplier error or malicious hacking of the network by a third party? They can do that now, how do you think they managed rolling power cuts in the past? They cut off entire towns at the substations. Did you think they ran around to everyone's houses and pulled the cutout fuse? |
Smart meters
Robin wrote:
The electrical supply to the meter is not turned off. So you phone the electric co to sort it out within in an hour or you DIY a solution getting you power back on without the meter. A toolbox with side cutters, screwdrivers etc does happen to live in the cupboard under the stairs with the electricity meter, where there happens also to be a used Henley box with holes for 2 sets of 25mm tails. I figure if they cut me off for no good reason, or the hackers take down half the country, they'll have better things to do than pursue me for cutting a few seals. Don't yours just pull off the wires anyway? |
Smart meters
In message , Tim Watts
writes On 06/03/15 18:59, ARW wrote: "Nick" wrote in message ... Also, if you want to support your local organic cannabis farm, I understand they compare smart meter readings with the street sub-station to see if anyone has accidentally bypassed their meter. Don't be silly. Sub stations are not metered. But where did I say that that they were? The concept is that the supply co. has some way of knowing how much juice is being supplied from the station. If all of the houses supplied have smart meters and there's a difference then there's a problem and/or someone has bypassed their meter. Oh, 'accidentally' should have had a smiley after it, sorry. I have seen current transformers on the HV feed phase cables to the odd one (street substation) - but I don't honestly know if those feed to anything that records anything... -- Nick (=----) |
Smart meters
On 06/03/2015 19:52, Andrew Gabriel wrote:
Interesting - what supplier is this? I am not aware that mine provides any monthy direct debit scheme that is based on real usage, rather than an estimate which results in me lending them large amounts of money at a zero interest rate. OVO energy. Although they take a fixed monthly direct debit like all the others they give 3% interest on any excess credit balance. They also have a "Flexible Direct Debit Plan" which apparently gives the customer more control over how much to pay each month but I'm happy with 3% return on any overpayment. -- Mike Clarke |
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