I have a domestic paper guillotine (BABS Premier 14) that I want to
fix to a wooden shelf. There is a flange each side with a hole on each
corner. Previously, I just used M6 bolts and nuts through the holes
and the shelf, but now I want to hang drawers underneath the shelf and
the bolts/nuts would get in the way.

Hence my idea of using spire nuts like the ones used extensively in
the auto industry. I'd drive Posidrive screws from underneath the
shelf into the spire nuts. If the screw heads were countersunk, they
would not get in the way of the drawers at all.

But thinking back to my days as a motor fitter, these spire nuts were
intended for *body panel* steel, which isn't very thick. The steel
flanges on the guillotine are 2.5mm thick. Is that too thick for a
spire nut?

MM

On Sun, 08 Feb 2015 14:36:23 +0000, MM wrote:

I have a domestic paper guillotine (BABS Premier 14) that I want to fix
to a wooden shelf. There is a flange each side with a hole on each
corner. Previously, I just used M6 bolts and nuts through the holes and
the shelf, but now I want to hang drawers underneath the shelf and the
bolts/nuts would get in the way.

Hence my idea of using spire nuts like the ones used extensively in the
auto industry. I'd drive Posidrive screws from underneath the shelf into
the spire nuts. If the screw heads were countersunk, they would not get
in the way of the drawers at all.

But thinking back to my days as a motor fitter, these spire nuts were
intended for *body panel* steel, which isn't very thick. The steel
flanges on the guillotine are 2.5mm thick. Is that too thick for a spire
nut?

I had to do something similar recently. I used (in my case M8) coach
bolts from underneath, a slight recess being necessarily to clear the
dome of the head. Then M8 nuts on the top.

Had to cut the coach bolts down as most of them come in a good deal
longer.
--
My posts are my copyright and if @diy_forums or Home Owners' Hub
wish to copy them they can pay me £30a message.
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK: http://www.mirrorservice.org
*lightning surge protection* - a w_tom conductor

On 08/02/2015 14:36, MM wrote:
I have a domestic paper guillotine (BABS Premier 14) that I want to
fix to a wooden shelf. There is a flange each side with a hole on each
corner. Previously, I just used M6 bolts and nuts through the holes
and the shelf, but now I want to hang drawers underneath the shelf and
the bolts/nuts would get in the way.

Hence my idea of using spire nuts like the ones used extensively in
the auto industry. I'd drive Posidrive screws from underneath the
shelf into the spire nuts. If the screw heads were countersunk, they
would not get in the way of the drawers at all.

But thinking back to my days as a motor fitter, these spire nuts were
intended for *body panel* steel, which isn't very thick. The steel
flanges on the guillotine are 2.5mm thick. Is that too thick for a
spire nut?

MM

Surely a countersunk machine screw from underneath, with a nut on the
top is the simplest option. All sizes/types available in relatively
small quantities from eBay.

On 8 Feb 2015 14:58:49 GMT, Bob Eager wrote:

On Sun, 08 Feb 2015 14:36:23 +0000, MM wrote:

I have a domestic paper guillotine (BABS Premier 14) that I want to fix
to a wooden shelf. There is a flange each side with a hole on each
corner. Previously, I just used M6 bolts and nuts through the holes and
the shelf, but now I want to hang drawers underneath the shelf and the
bolts/nuts would get in the way.

Hence my idea of using spire nuts like the ones used extensively in the
auto industry. I'd drive Posidrive screws from underneath the shelf into
the spire nuts. If the screw heads were countersunk, they would not get
in the way of the drawers at all.

But thinking back to my days as a motor fitter, these spire nuts were
intended for *body panel* steel, which isn't very thick. The steel
flanges on the guillotine are 2.5mm thick. Is that too thick for a spire
nut?

I had to do something similar recently. I used (in my case M8) coach
bolts from underneath, a slight recess being necessarily to clear the
dome of the head. Then M8 nuts on the top.

Ah, but once the guillotine is in place on top of the shelf I cannot
get to its flanges which are on the *inside* !

I did first think of glueing nuts in place (Araldite or similar)
before laying the 'tine on top of the shelf, but then I remembered the
spire nuts I used a lot in the 1960s.

NB: The flanges are L-shaped, with the fixing edge being the lower
part of the "L" (i.e. facing inwards). The right-hand side's "L"
flange is a mirror image of the left.

MM

On Sun, 08 Feb 2015 15:02:52 +0000, newshound
wrote:

On 08/02/2015 14:36, MM wrote:
I have a domestic paper guillotine (BABS Premier 14) that I want to
fix to a wooden shelf. There is a flange each side with a hole on each
corner. Previously, I just used M6 bolts and nuts through the holes
and the shelf, but now I want to hang drawers underneath the shelf and
the bolts/nuts would get in the way.

Hence my idea of using spire nuts like the ones used extensively in
the auto industry. I'd drive Posidrive screws from underneath the
shelf into the spire nuts. If the screw heads were countersunk, they
would not get in the way of the drawers at all.

But thinking back to my days as a motor fitter, these spire nuts were
intended for *body panel* steel, which isn't very thick. The steel
flanges on the guillotine are 2.5mm thick. Is that too thick for a
spire nut?

MM

Surely a countersunk machine screw from underneath, with a nut on the
top is the simplest option. All sizes/types available in relatively
small quantities from eBay.

See my reply to Bob above. The fixing flanges are on the *inside*.

MM

MM wrote:
On Sun, 08 Feb 2015 15:02:52 +0000, newshound
wrote:

On 08/02/2015 14:36, MM wrote:
I have a domestic paper guillotine (BABS Premier 14) that I want to
fix to a wooden shelf. There is a flange each side with a hole on each
corner. Previously, I just used M6 bolts and nuts through the holes
and the shelf, but now I want to hang drawers underneath the shelf and
the bolts/nuts would get in the way.

Hence my idea of using spire nuts like the ones used extensively in
the auto industry. I'd drive Posidrive screws from underneath the
shelf into the spire nuts. If the screw heads were countersunk, they
would not get in the way of the drawers at all.

But thinking back to my days as a motor fitter, these spire nuts were
intended for *body panel* steel, which isn't very thick. The steel
flanges on the guillotine are 2.5mm thick. Is that too thick for a
spire nut?

MM

Surely a countersunk machine screw from underneath, with a nut on the
top is the simplest option. All sizes/types available in relatively
small quantities from eBay.

See my reply to Bob above. The fixing flanges are on the *inside*.

MM

Glue the nuts and a serrated spring washer in place first. this should
be enough to allow assembly and then when tightening, the spring washer
should take over, break the glue and keep it tight.

On Sun, 08 Feb 2015 16:34:00 +0000, Bob Minchin
wrote:

MM wrote:
On Sun, 08 Feb 2015 15:02:52 +0000, newshound
wrote:

On 08/02/2015 14:36, MM wrote:
I have a domestic paper guillotine (BABS Premier 14) that I want to
fix to a wooden shelf. There is a flange each side with a hole on each
corner. Previously, I just used M6 bolts and nuts through the holes
and the shelf, but now I want to hang drawers underneath the shelf and
the bolts/nuts would get in the way.

Hence my idea of using spire nuts like the ones used extensively in
the auto industry. I'd drive Posidrive screws from underneath the
shelf into the spire nuts. If the screw heads were countersunk, they
would not get in the way of the drawers at all.

But thinking back to my days as a motor fitter, these spire nuts were
intended for *body panel* steel, which isn't very thick. The steel
flanges on the guillotine are 2.5mm thick. Is that too thick for a
spire nut?

MM

Surely a countersunk machine screw from underneath, with a nut on the
top is the simplest option. All sizes/types available in relatively
small quantities from eBay.

See my reply to Bob above. The fixing flanges are on the *inside*.

MM

Glue the nuts and a serrated spring washer in place first. this should
be enough to allow assembly and then when tightening, the spring washer
should take over, break the glue and keep it tight.

Yep, that was pretty much my first idea. But I don't have any suitable
glue or (for your suggestion) serrated washers, so it could be cheaper
buying the spire nuts! I'm first going to check my local hardwarew
store tomorrow. Yes, we still have an old-fashioned store with boxes
of loose screws, nuts, etc. They may well stock spire nuts, too, as
they have pretty much every other kind of fixing.

Since I wrote this I had another brainwave: Stick the nuts in place
with Bluetak! I do have plenty of that. Then gingerly insert each
screw.

MM

In article ,
MM wrote:
I have a domestic paper guillotine (BABS Premier 14) that I want to
fix to a wooden shelf. There is a flange each side with a hole on each
corner. Previously, I just used M6 bolts and nuts through the holes
and the shelf, but now I want to hang drawers underneath the shelf and
the bolts/nuts would get in the way.

Hence my idea of using spire nuts like the ones used extensively in
the auto industry. I'd drive Posidrive screws from underneath the
shelf into the spire nuts. If the screw heads were countersunk, they
would not get in the way of the drawers at all.

But thinking back to my days as a motor fitter, these spire nuts were
intended for *body panel* steel, which isn't very thick. The steel
flanges on the guillotine are 2.5mm thick. Is that too thick for a
spire nut?

Why not use pronged T nuts into the underside of the shelf? They only
protrude about 2mm below the shelf and the majority of the tread is within
the shelf. You could rebate them in flush if needed. They stay in place
when the bolt is removed. Come in most common sizes - from Toolstation,
etc.

--
*Virtual reality is its own reward *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Sun, 08 Feb 2015 18:40:18 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

In article ,
MM wrote:
I have a domestic paper guillotine (BABS Premier 14) that I want to
fix to a wooden shelf. There is a flange each side with a hole on each
corner. Previously, I just used M6 bolts and nuts through the holes
and the shelf, but now I want to hang drawers underneath the shelf and
the bolts/nuts would get in the way.

Hence my idea of using spire nuts like the ones used extensively in
the auto industry. I'd drive Posidrive screws from underneath the
shelf into the spire nuts. If the screw heads were countersunk, they
would not get in the way of the drawers at all.

But thinking back to my days as a motor fitter, these spire nuts were
intended for *body panel* steel, which isn't very thick. The steel
flanges on the guillotine are 2.5mm thick. Is that too thick for a
spire nut?

Why not use pronged T nuts into the underside of the shelf? They only
protrude about 2mm below the shelf and the majority of the tread is within
the shelf. You could rebate them in flush if needed. They stay in place
when the bolt is removed. Come in most common sizes - from Toolstation,
etc.

I can't get to the inside of the guillotine to insert/tighten bolts or
screws. (The guillotine is like a metal box with the knife down one
side and L-shaped flanges underneath which have the fixing holes.
Trouble is, the flanges both point INwards. Once the 'tine is on the
shelf, the L-flanges with the fixing holes are hidden. I can't get at
them.)

MM

On 08/02/2015 18:57, MM wrote:


I can't get to the inside of the guillotine to insert/tighten bolts or
screws. (The guillotine is like a metal box with the knife down one
side and L-shaped flanges underneath which have the fixing holes.
Trouble is, the flanges both point INwards. Once the 'tine is on the
shelf, the L-flanges with the fixing holes are hidden. I can't get at
them.)

Why not just use countersunk machine screws from inside the drawer?

In message . com,
"Dennis@home" writes
On 08/02/2015 18:57, MM wrote:


I can't get to the inside of the guillotine to insert/tighten bolts or
screws. (The guillotine is like a metal box with the knife down one
side and L-shaped flanges underneath which have the fixing holes.
Trouble is, the flanges both point INwards. Once the 'tine is on the
shelf, the L-flanges with the fixing holes are hidden. I can't get at
them.)

Why not just use countersunk machine screws from inside the drawer?

After tapping a thread in the guillotine fixing holes.


--
Tim Lamb

On 08/02/2015 16:45, MM wrote:
On Sun, 08 Feb 2015 16:34:00 +0000, Bob Minchin
wrote:

MM wrote:
On Sun, 08 Feb 2015 15:02:52 +0000, newshound
wrote:

On 08/02/2015 14:36, MM wrote:
I have a domestic paper guillotine (BABS Premier 14) that I want to
fix to a wooden shelf. There is a flange each side with a hole on each
corner. Previously, I just used M6 bolts and nuts through the holes
and the shelf, but now I want to hang drawers underneath the shelf and
the bolts/nuts would get in the way.

Hence my idea of using spire nuts like the ones used extensively in
the auto industry. I'd drive Posidrive screws from underneath the
shelf into the spire nuts. If the screw heads were countersunk, they
would not get in the way of the drawers at all.

But thinking back to my days as a motor fitter, these spire nuts were
intended for *body panel* steel, which isn't very thick. The steel
flanges on the guillotine are 2.5mm thick. Is that too thick for a
spire nut?

MM

Surely a countersunk machine screw from underneath, with a nut on the
top is the simplest option. All sizes/types available in relatively
small quantities from eBay.

See my reply to Bob above. The fixing flanges are on the *inside*.

MM

Glue the nuts and a serrated spring washer in place first. this should
be enough to allow assembly and then when tightening, the spring washer
should take over, break the glue and keep it tight.

Yep, that was pretty much my first idea. But I don't have any suitable
glue or (for your suggestion) serrated washers, so it could be cheaper
buying the spire nuts! I'm first going to check my local hardwarew
store tomorrow. Yes, we still have an old-fashioned store with boxes
of loose screws, nuts, etc. They may well stock spire nuts, too, as
they have pretty much every other kind of fixing.

Since I wrote this I had another brainwave: Stick the nuts in place
with Bluetak! I do have plenty of that. Then gingerly insert each
screw.

MM

Or tap the flange.

MM wrote:
On Sun, 08 Feb 2015 18:40:18 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

In ,
wrote:
I have a domestic paper guillotine (BABS Premier 14) that I want to
fix to a wooden shelf. There is a flange each side with a hole on each
corner. Previously, I just used M6 bolts and nuts through the holes
and the shelf, but now I want to hang drawers underneath the shelf and
the bolts/nuts would get in the way.

Hence my idea of using spire nuts like the ones used extensively in
the auto industry. I'd drive Posidrive screws from underneath the
shelf into the spire nuts. If the screw heads were countersunk, they
would not get in the way of the drawers at all.

But thinking back to my days as a motor fitter, these spire nuts were
intended for *body panel* steel, which isn't very thick. The steel
flanges on the guillotine are 2.5mm thick. Is that too thick for a
spire nut?

Why not use pronged T nuts into the underside of the shelf? They only
protrude about 2mm below the shelf and the majority of the tread is within
the shelf. You could rebate them in flush if needed. They stay in place
when the bolt is removed. Come in most common sizes - from Toolstation,
etc.

I can't get to the inside of the guillotine to insert/tighten bolts or
screws. (The guillotine is like a metal box with the knife down one
side and L-shaped flanges underneath which have the fixing holes.
Trouble is, the flanges both point INwards. Once the 'tine is on the
shelf, the L-flanges with the fixing holes are hidden. I can't get at
them.)

MM

Maybe I've missed something here, but why not use spire clips? These
can be slipped over a flange and will stay in place and can be fixed
with M4 say screws. Stretching a spire clip over 2mm edgingis quite
feasible IME. If the holes are in the wrong place, just drill some new
holes.

"MM" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 08 Feb 2015 15:02:52 +0000, newshound
wrote:

On 08/02/2015 14:36, MM wrote:
I have a domestic paper guillotine (BABS Premier 14) that I want to
fix to a wooden shelf. There is a flange each side with a hole on each
corner. Previously, I just used M6 bolts and nuts through the holes
and the shelf, but now I want to hang drawers underneath the shelf and
the bolts/nuts would get in the way.

Hence my idea of using spire nuts like the ones used extensively in
the auto industry. I'd drive Posidrive screws from underneath the
shelf into the spire nuts. If the screw heads were countersunk, they
would not get in the way of the drawers at all.

But thinking back to my days as a motor fitter, these spire nuts were
intended for *body panel* steel, which isn't very thick. The steel
flanges on the guillotine are 2.5mm thick. Is that too thick for a
spire nut?

MM

Surely a countersunk machine screw from underneath, with a nut on the
top is the simplest option. All sizes/types available in relatively
small quantities from eBay.

See my reply to Bob above. The fixing flanges are on the *inside*.

Why can't you use a self tapper with a countersink head ?

On Sun, 08 Feb 2015 19:39:51 +0000, newshound
wrote:

On 08/02/2015 16:45, MM wrote:
On Sun, 08 Feb 2015 16:34:00 +0000, Bob Minchin
wrote:

MM wrote:
On Sun, 08 Feb 2015 15:02:52 +0000, newshound
wrote:

On 08/02/2015 14:36, MM wrote:
I have a domestic paper guillotine (BABS Premier 14) that I want to
fix to a wooden shelf. There is a flange each side with a hole on each
corner. Previously, I just used M6 bolts and nuts through the holes
and the shelf, but now I want to hang drawers underneath the shelf and
the bolts/nuts would get in the way.

Hence my idea of using spire nuts like the ones used extensively in
the auto industry. I'd drive Posidrive screws from underneath the
shelf into the spire nuts. If the screw heads were countersunk, they
would not get in the way of the drawers at all.

But thinking back to my days as a motor fitter, these spire nuts were
intended for *body panel* steel, which isn't very thick. The steel
flanges on the guillotine are 2.5mm thick. Is that too thick for a
spire nut?

MM

Surely a countersunk machine screw from underneath, with a nut on the
top is the simplest option. All sizes/types available in relatively
small quantities from eBay.

See my reply to Bob above. The fixing flanges are on the *inside*.

MM

Glue the nuts and a serrated spring washer in place first. this should
be enough to allow assembly and then when tightening, the spring washer
should take over, break the glue and keep it tight.

Yep, that was pretty much my first idea. But I don't have any suitable
glue or (for your suggestion) serrated washers, so it could be cheaper
buying the spire nuts! I'm first going to check my local hardwarew
store tomorrow. Yes, we still have an old-fashioned store with boxes
of loose screws, nuts, etc. They may well stock spire nuts, too, as
they have pretty much every other kind of fixing.

Since I wrote this I had another brainwave: Stick the nuts in place
with Bluetak! I do have plenty of that. Then gingerly insert each
screw.

MM

Or tap the flange.

Good idea, but the manufacturer decided elongated holes would be best,
for some reason. the holes are MUCH larger than even M8 bolts.
'Course, I could just drill four new holes...! (But would 2.5mm metal
thickness be sufficient to take a thread that would endure?)

MM

On Sun, 08 Feb 2015 19:06:32 +0000, "Dennis@home"
wrote:

On 08/02/2015 18:57, MM wrote:


I can't get to the inside of the guillotine to insert/tighten bolts or
screws. (The guillotine is like a metal box with the knife down one
side and L-shaped flanges underneath which have the fixing holes.
Trouble is, the flanges both point INwards. Once the 'tine is on the
shelf, the L-flanges with the fixing holes are hidden. I can't get at
them.)

Why not just use countersunk machine screws from inside the drawer?

Screwed into what, though? That's the nub of this topic. The design of
the guillotine is such that it is intended to be, optionally,
surface-mounted, with bolts through its L-shaped flanges, nuts being
applied from beneath.

MM

On Sun, 8 Feb 2015 19:35:26 +0000, Tim Lamb
wrote:

In message . com,
"Dennis@home" writes
On 08/02/2015 18:57, MM wrote:


I can't get to the inside of the guillotine to insert/tighten bolts or
screws. (The guillotine is like a metal box with the knife down one
side and L-shaped flanges underneath which have the fixing holes.
Trouble is, the flanges both point INwards. Once the 'tine is on the
shelf, the L-flanges with the fixing holes are hidden. I can't get at
them.)

Why not just use countersunk machine screws from inside the drawer?

After tapping a thread in the guillotine fixing holes.

See my recent reply to newshound above. The holes in the flange are
elongated and much larger than even M8 bolts. That's the way the
designers designed it for some reason, with very large, oval holes.
(Perhaps intended in situations where this make/model of guillotine
was being installed to replace an existing 'tine from a different
manufacturer and the existing bolt/screw holes were misaligned. With
elongated holes, plus washers, the new machine could be installed and
fixed using the existing holes.)

MM

On Sun, 08 Feb 2015 21:13:29 +0000, Capitol
wrote:

MM wrote:
On Sun, 08 Feb 2015 18:40:18 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

In ,
wrote:
I have a domestic paper guillotine (BABS Premier 14) that I want to
fix to a wooden shelf. There is a flange each side with a hole on each
corner. Previously, I just used M6 bolts and nuts through the holes
and the shelf, but now I want to hang drawers underneath the shelf and
the bolts/nuts would get in the way.

Hence my idea of using spire nuts like the ones used extensively in
the auto industry. I'd drive Posidrive screws from underneath the
shelf into the spire nuts. If the screw heads were countersunk, they
would not get in the way of the drawers at all.

But thinking back to my days as a motor fitter, these spire nuts were
intended for *body panel* steel, which isn't very thick. The steel
flanges on the guillotine are 2.5mm thick. Is that too thick for a
spire nut?

Why not use pronged T nuts into the underside of the shelf? They only
protrude about 2mm below the shelf and the majority of the tread is within
the shelf. You could rebate them in flush if needed. They stay in place
when the bolt is removed. Come in most common sizes - from Toolstation,
etc.

I can't get to the inside of the guillotine to insert/tighten bolts or
screws. (The guillotine is like a metal box with the knife down one
side and L-shaped flanges underneath which have the fixing holes.
Trouble is, the flanges both point INwards. Once the 'tine is on the
shelf, the L-flanges with the fixing holes are hidden. I can't get at
them.)

MM

Maybe I've missed something here, but why not use spire clips? These
can be slipped over a flange and will stay in place and can be fixed
with M4 say screws. Stretching a spire clip over 2mm edgingis quite
feasible IME. If the holes are in the wrong place, just drill some new
holes.

Er... see my first post in the thread!

MM

MM wrote:
On Sun, 08 Feb 2015 19:39:51 +0000, newshound
wrote:

On 08/02/2015 16:45, MM wrote:
On Sun, 08 Feb 2015 16:34:00 +0000, Bob Minchin
wrote:

MM wrote:
On Sun, 08 Feb 2015 15:02:52 +0000, newshound
wrote:

On 08/02/2015 14:36, MM wrote:
I have a domestic paper guillotine (BABS Premier 14) that I want to
fix to a wooden shelf. There is a flange each side with a hole on each
corner. Previously, I just used M6 bolts and nuts through the holes
and the shelf, but now I want to hang drawers underneath the shelf and
the bolts/nuts would get in the way.

Hence my idea of using spire nuts like the ones used extensively in
the auto industry. I'd drive Posidrive screws from underneath the
shelf into the spire nuts. If the screw heads were countersunk, they
would not get in the way of the drawers at all.

But thinking back to my days as a motor fitter, these spire nuts were
intended for *body panel* steel, which isn't very thick. The steel
flanges on the guillotine are 2.5mm thick. Is that too thick for a
spire nut?

MM

Surely a countersunk machine screw from underneath, with a nut on the
top is the simplest option. All sizes/types available in relatively
small quantities from eBay.

See my reply to Bob above. The fixing flanges are on the *inside*.

MM

Glue the nuts and a serrated spring washer in place first. this should
be enough to allow assembly and then when tightening, the spring washer
should take over, break the glue and keep it tight.

Yep, that was pretty much my first idea. But I don't have any suitable
glue or (for your suggestion) serrated washers, so it could be cheaper
buying the spire nuts! I'm first going to check my local hardwarew
store tomorrow. Yes, we still have an old-fashioned store with boxes
of loose screws, nuts, etc. They may well stock spire nuts, too, as
they have pretty much every other kind of fixing.

Since I wrote this I had another brainwave: Stick the nuts in place
with Bluetak! I do have plenty of that. Then gingerly insert each
screw.

MM

Or tap the flange.

Good idea, but the manufacturer decided elongated holes would be best,
for some reason. the holes are MUCH larger than even M8 bolts.
'Course, I could just drill four new holes...! (But would 2.5mm metal
thickness be sufficient to take a thread that would endure?)

MM


Google rivnuts.

MM wrote:
On Sun, 08 Feb 2015 21:13:29 +0000, Capitol
wrote:

MM wrote:
On Sun, 08 Feb 2015 18:40:18 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

In ,
wrote:
I have a domestic paper guillotine (BABS Premier 14) that I want to
fix to a wooden shelf. There is a flange each side with a hole on each
corner. Previously, I just used M6 bolts and nuts through the holes
and the shelf, but now I want to hang drawers underneath the shelf and
the bolts/nuts would get in the way.

Hence my idea of using spire nuts like the ones used extensively in
the auto industry. I'd drive Posidrive screws from underneath the
shelf into the spire nuts. If the screw heads were countersunk, they
would not get in the way of the drawers at all.

But thinking back to my days as a motor fitter, these spire nuts were
intended for *body panel* steel, which isn't very thick. The steel
flanges on the guillotine are 2.5mm thick. Is that too thick for a
spire nut?

Why not use pronged T nuts into the underside of the shelf? They only
protrude about 2mm below the shelf and the majority of the tread is within
the shelf. You could rebate them in flush if needed. They stay in place
when the bolt is removed. Come in most common sizes - from Toolstation,
etc.

I can't get to the inside of the guillotine to insert/tighten bolts or
screws. (The guillotine is like a metal box with the knife down one
side and L-shaped flanges underneath which have the fixing holes.
Trouble is, the flanges both point INwards. Once the 'tine is on the
shelf, the L-flanges with the fixing holes are hidden. I can't get at
them.)

MM

Maybe I've missed something here, but why not use spire clips? These
can be slipped over a flange and will stay in place and can be fixed
with M4 say screws. Stretching a spire clip over 2mm edgingis quite
feasible IME. If the holes are in the wrong place, just drill some new
holes.

Er... see my first post in the thread!

MM

Rivnuts.

On Sun, 08 Feb 2015 23:29:29 +0000, MM wrote:

On Sun, 8 Feb 2015 19:35:26 +0000, Tim Lamb
wrote:

In message . com,
"Dennis@home" writes
On 08/02/2015 18:57, MM wrote:


I can't get to the inside of the guillotine to insert/tighten bolts or
screws. (The guillotine is like a metal box with the knife down one
side and L-shaped flanges underneath which have the fixing holes.
Trouble is, the flanges both point INwards. Once the 'tine is on the
shelf, the L-flanges with the fixing holes are hidden. I can't get at
them.)

Why not just use countersunk machine screws from inside the drawer?

After tapping a thread in the guillotine fixing holes.

See my recent reply to newshound above. The holes in the flange are
elongated and much larger than even M8 bolts. That's the way the
designers designed it for some reason, with very large, oval holes.
(Perhaps intended in situations where this make/model of guillotine
was being installed to replace an existing 'tine from a different
manufacturer and the existing bolt/screw holes were misaligned. With
elongated holes, plus washers, the new machine could be installed and
fixed using the existing holes.)

MM

How about a). elongating the holes with a rectangular slot that will hold
the screws with the square bit under the head, if the flange is thick
enough, then, if necessary, file the heads to go through the big hole. Put
the 'tine in place over the screws already through shelf and lift/wiggle it
into place.
or b). drill and tap some new holes.
--
Peter.
The gods will stay away
whilst religions hold sway

On Mon, 09 Feb 2015 13:48:50 +1100, F Murtz
wrote:

MM wrote:
On Sun, 08 Feb 2015 19:39:51 +0000, newshound
wrote:

On 08/02/2015 16:45, MM wrote:
On Sun, 08 Feb 2015 16:34:00 +0000, Bob Minchin
wrote:

MM wrote:
On Sun, 08 Feb 2015 15:02:52 +0000, newshound
wrote:

On 08/02/2015 14:36, MM wrote:
I have a domestic paper guillotine (BABS Premier 14) that I want to
fix to a wooden shelf. There is a flange each side with a hole on each
corner. Previously, I just used M6 bolts and nuts through the holes
and the shelf, but now I want to hang drawers underneath the shelf and
the bolts/nuts would get in the way.

Hence my idea of using spire nuts like the ones used extensively in
the auto industry. I'd drive Posidrive screws from underneath the
shelf into the spire nuts. If the screw heads were countersunk, they
would not get in the way of the drawers at all.

But thinking back to my days as a motor fitter, these spire nuts were
intended for *body panel* steel, which isn't very thick. The steel
flanges on the guillotine are 2.5mm thick. Is that too thick for a
spire nut?

MM

Surely a countersunk machine screw from underneath, with a nut on the
top is the simplest option. All sizes/types available in relatively
small quantities from eBay.

See my reply to Bob above. The fixing flanges are on the *inside*.

MM

Glue the nuts and a serrated spring washer in place first. this should
be enough to allow assembly and then when tightening, the spring washer
should take over, break the glue and keep it tight.

Yep, that was pretty much my first idea. But I don't have any suitable
glue or (for your suggestion) serrated washers, so it could be cheaper
buying the spire nuts! I'm first going to check my local hardwarew
store tomorrow. Yes, we still have an old-fashioned store with boxes
of loose screws, nuts, etc. They may well stock spire nuts, too, as
they have pretty much every other kind of fixing.

Since I wrote this I had another brainwave: Stick the nuts in place
with Bluetak! I do have plenty of that. Then gingerly insert each
screw.

MM

Or tap the flange.

Good idea, but the manufacturer decided elongated holes would be best,
for some reason. the holes are MUCH larger than even M8 bolts.
'Course, I could just drill four new holes...! (But would 2.5mm metal
thickness be sufficient to take a thread that would endure?)

MM


Google rivnuts.

Man! Boy oh boy! Now THAT is an excellent idea! I didn't just Google,
I went on to Amazon and found several inexpensive rivnut setting tools
(although the cheapest (from Silverline) got very poor reviews).

Brilliant. Brilliant Brilliant. Thanks! Never heard of these things
before, and I can now see other uses for them round the house and in
general DIY.

MM

On Mon, 9 Feb 2015 07:55:10 +0000, PeterC
wrote:

On Sun, 08 Feb 2015 23:29:29 +0000, MM wrote:

On Sun, 8 Feb 2015 19:35:26 +0000, Tim Lamb
wrote:

In message . com,
"Dennis@home" writes
On 08/02/2015 18:57, MM wrote:


I can't get to the inside of the guillotine to insert/tighten bolts or
screws. (The guillotine is like a metal box with the knife down one
side and L-shaped flanges underneath which have the fixing holes.
Trouble is, the flanges both point INwards. Once the 'tine is on the
shelf, the L-flanges with the fixing holes are hidden. I can't get at
them.)

Why not just use countersunk machine screws from inside the drawer?

After tapping a thread in the guillotine fixing holes.

See my recent reply to newshound above. The holes in the flange are
elongated and much larger than even M8 bolts. That's the way the
designers designed it for some reason, with very large, oval holes.
(Perhaps intended in situations where this make/model of guillotine
was being installed to replace an existing 'tine from a different
manufacturer and the existing bolt/screw holes were misaligned. With
elongated holes, plus washers, the new machine could be installed and
fixed using the existing holes.)

MM

How about a). elongating the holes with a rectangular slot that will hold
the screws with the square bit under the head, if the flange is thick
enough, then, if necessary, file the heads to go through the big hole. Put
the 'tine in place over the screws already through shelf and lift/wiggle it
into place.
or b). drill and tap some new holes.

Also some possibilities there. Thanks.

MM

On Mon, 09 Feb 2015 13:49:53 +1100, F Murtz
wrote:

MM wrote:
On Sun, 08 Feb 2015 21:13:29 +0000, Capitol
wrote:

MM wrote:
On Sun, 08 Feb 2015 18:40:18 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

In ,
wrote:
I have a domestic paper guillotine (BABS Premier 14) that I want to
fix to a wooden shelf. There is a flange each side with a hole on each
corner. Previously, I just used M6 bolts and nuts through the holes
and the shelf, but now I want to hang drawers underneath the shelf and
the bolts/nuts would get in the way.

Hence my idea of using spire nuts like the ones used extensively in
the auto industry. I'd drive Posidrive screws from underneath the
shelf into the spire nuts. If the screw heads were countersunk, they
would not get in the way of the drawers at all.

But thinking back to my days as a motor fitter, these spire nuts were
intended for *body panel* steel, which isn't very thick. The steel
flanges on the guillotine are 2.5mm thick. Is that too thick for a
spire nut?

Why not use pronged T nuts into the underside of the shelf? They only
protrude about 2mm below the shelf and the majority of the tread is within
the shelf. You could rebate them in flush if needed. They stay in place
when the bolt is removed. Come in most common sizes - from Toolstation,
etc.

I can't get to the inside of the guillotine to insert/tighten bolts or
screws. (The guillotine is like a metal box with the knife down one
side and L-shaped flanges underneath which have the fixing holes.
Trouble is, the flanges both point INwards. Once the 'tine is on the
shelf, the L-flanges with the fixing holes are hidden. I can't get at
them.)

MM

Maybe I've missed something here, but why not use spire clips? These
can be slipped over a flange and will stay in place and can be fixed
with M4 say screws. Stretching a spire clip over 2mm edgingis quite
feasible IME. If the holes are in the wrong place, just drill some new
holes.

Er... see my first post in the thread!

MM

Rivnuts.

To avoid having to purchase a rivnut gun for just four fixings, is
there a kind of "rivnut" that has an outer thread as well as the inner
thread? That is, you insert the "nut" through the metal flange, then
fix it in place with a nut. Then fix the guillotine with bolts/screws
into the inner thread. Bit like the screw-in ones for wood.

MM

On 08/02/2015 23:24, MM wrote:
On Sun, 08 Feb 2015 19:06:32 +0000, "Dennis@home"
wrote:

On 08/02/2015 18:57, MM wrote:


I can't get to the inside of the guillotine to insert/tighten bolts or
screws. (The guillotine is like a metal box with the knife down one
side and L-shaped flanges underneath which have the fixing holes.
Trouble is, the flanges both point INwards. Once the 'tine is on the
shelf, the L-flanges with the fixing holes are hidden. I can't get at
them.)

Why not just use countersunk machine screws from inside the drawer?

Screwed into what, though? That's the nub of this topic. The design of
the guillotine is such that it is intended to be, optionally,
surface-mounted, with bolts through its L-shaped flanges, nuts being
applied from beneath.

MM


You tape the nuts onto the flange and put the screws through from below.
Gives a flush fit so it doesn't interfere with the drawer.

Of course you can use rivnuts or cage nuts as suggested by others if you
want.

Cage nuts..
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Screws-Washe.../dp/B00IZETYXW

MM wrote:
On Mon, 09 Feb 2015 13:49:53 +1100, F Murtz
wrote:

MM wrote:
On Sun, 08 Feb 2015 21:13:29 +0000, Capitol
wrote:

MM wrote:
On Sun, 08 Feb 2015 18:40:18 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

In ,
wrote:
I have a domestic paper guillotine (BABS Premier 14) that I want to
fix to a wooden shelf. There is a flange each side with a hole on each
corner. Previously, I just used M6 bolts and nuts through the holes
and the shelf, but now I want to hang drawers underneath the shelf and
the bolts/nuts would get in the way.

Hence my idea of using spire nuts like the ones used extensively in
the auto industry. I'd drive Posidrive screws from underneath the
shelf into the spire nuts. If the screw heads were countersunk, they
would not get in the way of the drawers at all.

But thinking back to my days as a motor fitter, these spire nuts were
intended for *body panel* steel, which isn't very thick. The steel
flanges on the guillotine are 2.5mm thick. Is that too thick for a
spire nut?

Why not use pronged T nuts into the underside of the shelf? They only
protrude about 2mm below the shelf and the majority of the tread is within
the shelf. You could rebate them in flush if needed. They stay in place
when the bolt is removed. Come in most common sizes - from Toolstation,
etc.

I can't get to the inside of the guillotine to insert/tighten bolts or
screws. (The guillotine is like a metal box with the knife down one
side and L-shaped flanges underneath which have the fixing holes.
Trouble is, the flanges both point INwards. Once the 'tine is on the
shelf, the L-flanges with the fixing holes are hidden. I can't get at
them.)

MM

Maybe I've missed something here, but why not use spire clips? These
can be slipped over a flange and will stay in place and can be fixed
with M4 say screws. Stretching a spire clip over 2mm edgingis quite
feasible IME. If the holes are in the wrong place, just drill some new
holes.

Er... see my first post in the thread!

MM

Rivnuts.

To avoid having to purchase a rivnut gun for just four fixings, is
there a kind of "rivnut" that has an outer thread as well as the inner
thread? That is, you insert the "nut" through the metal flange, then
fix it in place with a nut. Then fix the guillotine with bolts/screws
into the inner thread. Bit like the screw-in ones for wood.

MM

For a one off, you can just screw a bit of threaded rod or bolt with a
long thread with a nut and washer in the rivnut with a bit of grease on
the washer and tighten it it will usually compress the rivenut.(use a
different nut and threaded rod for each one as they get a bit strained)

In article ,
MM wrote:
Why not use pronged T nuts into the underside of the shelf? They only
protrude about 2mm below the shelf and the majority of the tread is
within the shelf. You could rebate them in flush if needed. They stay
in place when the bolt is removed. Come in most common sizes - from
Toolstation, etc.

I can't get to the inside of the guillotine to insert/tighten bolts or
screws. (The guillotine is like a metal box with the knife down one
side and L-shaped flanges underneath which have the fixing holes.
Trouble is, the flanges both point INwards. Once the 'tine is on the
shelf, the L-flanges with the fixing holes are hidden. I can't get at
them.)

Ah. Sound like rivnuts to the guillotine flange and countersunk machine
screws from the underside, then.

--
*Procrastination is the art of keeping up with yesterday.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In ,
wrote:
Why not use pronged T nuts into the underside of the shelf? They only
protrude about 2mm below the shelf and the majority of the tread is
within the shelf. You could rebate them in flush if needed. They stay
in place when the bolt is removed. Come in most common sizes - from
Toolstation, etc.

I can't get to the inside of the guillotine to insert/tighten bolts or
screws. (The guillotine is like a metal box with the knife down one
side and L-shaped flanges underneath which have the fixing holes.
Trouble is, the flanges both point INwards. Once the 'tine is on the
shelf, the L-flanges with the fixing holes are hidden. I can't get at
them.)

Ah. Sound like rivnuts to the guillotine flange and countersunk machine
screws from the underside, then.


Or just spire clips. They are as hard as hell, grip on a flange, don't
need fixing tools and can be removed later if required.

MM wrote:

F Murtz wrote:

rivnuts.

I went on to Amazon and found several inexpensive rivnut setting tools
(although the cheapest (from Silverline) got very poor reviews).

I got the silverline tool, only needed to set 8 rivnuts (and a couple of
test ones) I *was* using stainless ones, so a bit tougher on the tool,
it didn't break as such, but it distorted enough that the crackle finish
paint flaked off it, but it got the job done (fixing points for a steel
banister rail, and the result is solid as a rock).

MM wrote:

To avoid having to purchase a rivnut gun for just four fixings, is
there a kind of "rivnut" that has an outer thread as well as the inner
thread? That is, you insert the "nut" through the metal flange, then
fix it in place with a nut. Then fix the guillotine with bolts/screws
into the inner thread.

google for camera screw conversion bushes, e.g.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/271019158544

On Tue, 10 Feb 2015 08:21:10 +0000, Andy Burns
wrote:

MM wrote:

To avoid having to purchase a rivnut gun for just four fixings, is
there a kind of "rivnut" that has an outer thread as well as the inner
thread? That is, you insert the "nut" through the metal flange, then
fix it in place with a nut. Then fix the guillotine with bolts/screws
into the inner thread.

google for camera screw conversion bushes, e.g.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/271019158544

Great tip, thanks.

MM

On Mon, 09 Feb 2015 14:14:44 +0000, Capitol
wrote:

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In ,
wrote:
Why not use pronged T nuts into the underside of the shelf? They only
protrude about 2mm below the shelf and the majority of the tread is
within the shelf. You could rebate them in flush if needed. They stay
in place when the bolt is removed. Come in most common sizes - from
Toolstation, etc.

I can't get to the inside of the guillotine to insert/tighten bolts or
screws. (The guillotine is like a metal box with the knife down one
side and L-shaped flanges underneath which have the fixing holes.
Trouble is, the flanges both point INwards. Once the 'tine is on the
shelf, the L-flanges with the fixing holes are hidden. I can't get at
them.)

Ah. Sound like rivnuts to the guillotine flange and countersunk machine
screws from the underside, then.


Or just spire clips. They are as hard as hell, grip on a flange, don't
need fixing tools and can be removed later if required.

Yep, this is what I finally used, as I couldn't find any outlet that
could supply just 4 rivnuts or rubber rivnuts. I happened to see a
small packet of 4 spire nuts at Halfords (in the nuts and bolts
section) so I got those. The guillotine is now fixed firmly and the
new "pseduo-Ikea/Ivar" drawer underneath looks great. Thanks for all
the responses in this thread.

MM