On 18/07/2014 12:00, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
John Rumm wrote:
In Australia silver solder is specified in new buildings (units,
flats,domestic complexes, high rises, industrial) for copper pipe
(mostly 5% sometimes 2%

Can't think of any advantages, and plenty of disadvantages in its use
for this application. When copper pipes fail, it is almost never due to
solder failing in the fitting.

With a joint that was as strong as the tube, freezing would likely split
the tube. With soft solder, it may just 'pop' the joint making repairs
easier.


"May"? Not something I have ever seen.

I have seen split pipes and compression joint failures ones where a pipe
has been "pushed" out by expansion of ice. But no popped solder joints.

On 18/07/14 16:56, Fredxxx wrote:
On 18/07/2014 12:00, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
John Rumm wrote:
In Australia silver solder is specified in new buildings (units,
flats,domestic complexes, high rises, industrial) for copper pipe
(mostly 5% sometimes 2%

Can't think of any advantages, and plenty of disadvantages in its use
for this application. When copper pipes fail, it is almost never due to
solder failing in the fitting.

With a joint that was as strong as the tube, freezing would likely split
the tube. With soft solder, it may just 'pop' the joint making repairs
easier.


"May"? Not something I have ever seen.

I have seen split pipes and compression joint failures ones where a pipe
has been "pushed" out by expansion of ice. But no popped solder joints.

Indeed. Split pipes here, never popped joints.

brazing is where you need mechanical support for a joint under flexing.


--
Everything you read in newspapers is absolutely true, except for the
rare story of which you happen to have first-hand knowledge. €“ Erwin Knoll

harryagain wrote:
"Bob Minchin" wrote in message
...
F Murtz wrote:
Do British plumbers use silver solder (copper silver phosphor alloy)for
joining copper pipe in the uk or are they stuck with the old fashioned
methods . May be joints are not soldered as much in the UK and you use
quickfit substitutes but if they are soldered what do you use?
In Australia silver solder is specified in new buildings (units,
flats,domestic complexes, high rises, industrial) for copper pipe
(mostly 5% sometimes 2%

In order to get MCS* approval for my solar thermal system (approval to get
the grant) all joints had to be threaded or compression fittings.
Soldering is forbidden. I asked about silver solder as that was a much
more compact method of getting from say 10mm copper to 1.5" bsp pump
unions but they said "no".
Plain daft as the header tank for the tubes on the roof is silver soldered
and it is MCS approved in its own right as a system component.

*Microgeneration Certification Scheme

A solar thermal system (if it has no coolant) can get hot enough to melt
soft/leadbased solder.
That's the reason for it.
Especially the ones with evacuated adsorbers (the glass tubes).


But the thread is about SILVER solder and I stuck to the topic also
referring to silver soldering but this is outlawed by MCS for installers
to use it.
Pay attention Harry FFS

In article ,
harryagain wrote:
I never heard of a properly done soft soldered joint coming apart. The
pipe would fracture first.

I've seem one popped out when it froze. An easier fix than a split pipe.

Ergo hard soldering is over the top, a waste
of resource.

--
*Marriage changes passion - suddenly you're in bed with a relative*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
harryagain wrote:
With a joint that was as strong as the tube, freezing would likely
split the tube. With soft solder, it may just 'pop' the joint making
repairs easier.

No chance.

Wrong again, Harry. I've seen it.

--
*Why is the word abbreviation so long?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 18/07/2014 16:38, harryagain wrote:
....
I never heard of a properly done soft soldered joint coming apart. The pipe
would fracture first.

The rated burst pressure for a 15mm soldered fitting is 200psi - less
than a quarter of the burst pressure of thin wall half hard copper tube.

Ergo hard soldering is over the top, a waste of resource...

The main drawback is that it anneals the tube.


--
Colin Bignell

On 18/07/2014 11:50, F Murtz wrote:
John Rumm wrote:
On 18/07/2014 10:13, F Murtz wrote:
Andy Burns wrote:
Dave Liquorice wrote:

"Lead free solder" should be used on potable water supplies. Gas,
heating etc I don't think is specified.

I looked on the BES website to see what solders they sell

http://www.bes.co.uk/products/212.asp

the lead free solders required for potable water are to

BS 219 grade 99C
BS EN 29453 alloy #23
BS EN ISO 9453:2006 alloy #401

depending how historic or up to date you want to be

The BSOL site requires silverlight which I normally have disabled, I
did
enable it to try to view the ISO version, but silverlight crashed, so I
looked at the Johnson Matthey product spec instead

http://www.jm-metaljoining.com/pdfs-products/Copper-Tin%20solders.pdf

The everyday lead-free solder is 99% tin, 1% copper.

The thing is that the soft solder discussion has been introduced by
others my discussion was about what we and the makers, suppliers
Australian users call silver solder

We understand what you mean (i.e. what we would call brazing or hard
soldering), but were just highlighting that for plumbing, lead free soft
solder is the norm here.


You may know what I mean and most others may know . but one did not or
this discussion would not be going on.

Well such is usenet ;-)


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 18/07/2014 16:51, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 18/07/14 10:08, F Murtz wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 18/07/14 08:21, Andy Burns wrote:
F Murtz wrote:

Do British plumbers use silver solder (copper silver phosphor
alloy)for
joining copper pipe in the uk

IANAP, but I'll answer anyway; for water, gas, and heating in domestic
installations it would be unheard of to use silver solder.

Of course all the lead free solder contains a little silver...

which our inverted idiot thinks is 'silver solder'



Now you are going completely stupid My discussion about solder is silver
solder (copper silver phosphor alloy) low silver 2% 5% that is used
mainly by plumbers
It has never been about soft solder except as a side issue
I have not and have never called any form of soft solder with or without
silver, lead etc silver solder.
That is your construct.

Well you claimed plumbers used 'silver solder'

Since we also sometimes refer to hard soldering or brazing as silver
soldering - that would seem acceptable.

but they actually
universally use 'soft solder'

No they don't - as demonstrated by this thread.

So it's your choice. You are either wrong that they use 'silver solder'
or you are wrong that silver solder is soft solder.

FFS, get a clue and stop being an arse.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 18/07/2014 12:33, F Murtz wrote:
Richard wrote:
"Rod Speed" wrote in message ...

Robin wrote

In Australia silver solder is specified in new buildings
(units, flats,domestic complexes, high rises, industrial) for copper
pipe (mostly 5% sometimes 2%

Playing safe as there are some water supplies in ANZ which attack
soft solder?

Nope.

UK water supplies are less aggressive

Bull****. The water is in fact a lot harder in quite a bit of Britain.

Oh ****. Rod is here now.

For anyone interested in antipodean plumbing:
http://www.kembla.com/assets/Uploads...s-Handbook.pdf


Also see this from:
https://law.resource.org/pub/nz/ibr/...00.5.2000.html
q
2.6 JOINTING

2.6.1 Silver brazing alloy

2.6.1.1 Copper and copper alloys

Silver brazing alloys for capillary jointing of copper and copper alloy
pipes and fittings shall comply with AS 1167.1 and shall contain a
minimum of 1.8% silver and shall a maximum of 0.05% cadmium.
2.6.1.2 Stainless steel pipes

Silver brazing alloys for capillary jointing of stainless steel pipes
and fittings shall comply with AS 1167.1 and shall contain a minimum of
38% silver and a maximum of 0.05% cadmium.
2.6.2 Soft solders

The following limitations shall apply to the use of soft solder:
Soft solder shall not contain more than 0.1% lead by weight.
Soft solder shall only be used for jointing copper or copper alloy pipes
to capillary fittings of the long engagement type complying with AS 3688.
Soft solder shall not be used with coiled annealed pipes.
NOTE: In certain areas, soft-soldered joints may not be suitable due to
the chemical composition of the water and, hence, their use may not be
permitted.
/q


And, no I'm not a real plumber even though I don't wear a tie.


Dont know if anyone noticed that annealed coil has to be silver soldered
wonder what the case is in the UK

Typically used on microbore heating systems etc. Usually soft soldered
or pushfit these days.




--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

Nightjar "cpb"@" "insert my surname here wrote
F Murtz wrote

I am talking about a form of soldering or brazing normally called in
australia and if the truth were known in the UK by the term silver
soldering in which you need a temperature above red to achieve.

May be the problem is word meanings in different countries
It makes no difference to the fact that plumbers extensively use the
first silver solder on this list in Australia.
http://www.metalspraysupplies.com/ms...lversolder.pdf

It seem that maybee the UK does not which seem strange to me as this
method is the most permanent and safest.

It also requires a lot more heat,

Yes.

often in difficult to reach places,

And in places where a propane torch doesnt
work because of the lack of air to burn.

which, to me, suggests a much higher fire risk.

Not if its masonry/blocks etc.

If I had joints in concrete or walls or floors or anywhere inaccessible
I would much rather them silver soldered with (copper silver phosphor
alloy)(melting point red)than any form of soft solder

It is not a problem at normal water pressures and I prefer solder to
compression fittings.

On 18/07/2014 10:37, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article m,
F Murtz wrote:
Now you are going completely stupid My discussion about solder is silver
solder (copper silver phosphor alloy) low silver 2% 5% that is used
mainly by plumbers

If you call that silver solder, what do you call real silver solder with a
silver content of approx 40%?


Silverflow 302?

On 18/07/2014 10:49, Richard wrote:
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...

In article m,
F Murtz wrote:
Now you are going completely stupid My discussion about solder is silver
solder (copper silver phosphor alloy) low silver 2% 5% that is used
mainly by plumbers

If you call that silver solder, what do you call real silver solder
with a
silver content of approx 40%?

Bullion, unless you're Rod, then bull****.

that would be silverflow 55, more silver than anything else.

On 18/07/2014 11:48, F Murtz wrote:
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article m,
F Murtz wrote:
Now you are going completely stupid My discussion about solder is silver
solder (copper silver phosphor alloy) low silver 2% 5% that is used
mainly by plumbers

If you call that silver solder, what do you call real silver solder
with a
silver content of approx 40%?

Silver solder or if you prefer,
40% Silver solder.

Its called a brazing rod.
you braze things with it.

On 18/07/2014 09:07, F Murtz wrote:
Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Fri, 18 Jul 2014 16:43:00 +1000, F Murtz wrote:

May be joints are not soldered as much in the UK and you use quickfit
substitutes but if they are soldered what do you use?

"Lead free solder" should be used on potable water supplies. Gas,
heating etc I don't think is specified.

"Lead free" is a Tin-Silver-Copper alloy but has melting point only
just above ordinary leaded 60/40. The term "silver solder" over here
would normally refer to brazing with the temperatures above about 450
C, against 200 C or just below for soft soldering.

Lead free soft solder is used over here,mainly by home handymen and
rarely by plumbers who usually use hard silver solder(copper silver
phosphor alloy)

We wouldn't use phosphous in silver solder.
We might use 30%Ag, 36%Cu, 32%Zn, 2%Sn but it isn't needed for plumbing
water systems and it need 650C to use it.

"Andrew" wrote in message
...
On 18/07/2014 09:38, harryagain wrote:
"Andy Burns" wrote in message
o.uk...
F Murtz wrote:

Do British plumbers use silver solder (copper silver phosphor alloy)for
joining copper pipe in the uk

IANAP, but I'll answer anyway; for water, gas, and heating in domestic
installations it would be unheard of to use silver solder.

If using copper, a "real" plumber would be more likely to use end-feed
solder fittings, rather than "yorkshire" solder-ring fittings.

There has been a rise in plastic pipe with push fittings, for ease of
use
by amateur plumbers and for speed of installation on lower-end new
builds.
These have probably displaced use of compression fittings by amateurs.

There are also copper push-fit fittings for use on copper pipe, I can't
see a real plumber using those except to avoid redecoration on existing
installations, an amateur could use them to avoid soldering if working
on
an existing copper installation.

Leaving apart specialised installations (refrigeration, oxygen supplies
etc) What advantages does silver solder have for domestic use?

You loaded your question (are they stuck with the old fashioned
methods) so I'll load my answer - I suspect it's a job protection
measure
pushed into legislature by industry bodies to keep Joe Bloggs from
DIYing
his own plumbing ...


You are right in your last remark.
There is a whole wadge of legislation in Oz to prevent DIY in just about
everything.
It is the ultimate nanny society.
Agreed. And that is where our stupid Part P building reg came from.

Lead based solders in the UK are not allowed for potable water but are
still
widely used for central heating and could be used for hot water.

I think electronics also has to be lead free also now.

Probably lead based solder will disappear altogether in the near future.
I think the replacement is mostly zinc.


Not where avionics is concerned. Lead-free solder is totally banned for
anything important on a civil aeroplane. There are plenty of photos of how
lead-free joints fail on the web. There is one taken by cutting open a
transister can showing the 'whiskers' that seem to develop.

And anyway, I thought the refridgeration industry always brazes copper
pipework, and the pipe ends are usually flared on site using a special
tool whose name I forget.

Domestic copper piping has always used preformed sockets that are (were)
more suitable to low(er) temperature lead-based solder that uses capillary
action to fill the joint.

everything is different in Oz.

Nope.

I believe soldering electrical mains cable is the preferred method,

You're wrong.

while we use junction boxes

So do we.

or crimps.

So do we.

"Andrew" wrote in message
...
On 18/07/2014 10:34, F Murtz wrote:
snip

It seem that maybee the UK does not which seem strange to me as this
method is the most permanent and safest.
If I had joints in concrete or walls or floors or anywhere inaccessible
I would much rather them silver soldered with (copper silver phosphor
alloy)(melting point red)than any form of soft solder


Why ?. Most houses built in the 60's and 70's (like mine) have solid
floors. On top of the construction slab the 3/4 inch screwed iron gas line
for the baxi bermuda back boiler and kitchen was laid, and also the 15 and
22 mm copper central heating runs. These were 'soft' lead soldered (using
cheaper gas and equipment), wrapped with felt stuff, and then the 80 mm of
screed laid over the top. Provided the copper is isolated from anything
cementitious or gypsum based, it is remarkably self-protecting. High
temperature brazing of copper (which I believe requires a special grade of
copper pipe = more expensive) is only used in the refridgeration industry.
Horses for courses. And these days it is all dumbed down and replaced by
push-fit barrier plastic.

Unless you were unlucky to have poor quality copper pipe which pin-holed
(common during the 70's copper boom) this will last the life of the
building - typically 80 years. My house is 38 years old. The lead-soldered
copper pipework is in perfect condition.

The important thing was to clean off the acidic flux which many lazy
'Can't get me I'm in the union' types didn't bother. Same goes for
flushing before adding inhibitor.

Are australian houses (other than in Melbourne and Hobart) built with
central heating ?.

Yes.

Why would you need it in Brisbane or Cairns ?.

It gets cold enough in winter in Brizvegas to need heating.

And there are plenty of places like Canberra
that get a lot colder than Melburg too.

"Andrew" wrote in message
...
On 18/07/2014 12:00, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
John Rumm wrote:
In Australia silver solder is specified in new buildings (units,
flats,domestic complexes, high rises, industrial) for copper pipe
(mostly 5% sometimes 2%

Can't think of any advantages, and plenty of disadvantages in its use
for this application. When copper pipes fail, it is almost never due to
solder failing in the fitting.

With a joint that was as strong as the tube, freezing would likely split
the tube. With soft solder, it may just 'pop' the joint making repairs
easier.

This is Australia, Dave. Freezing only occurs if you fall into the
supermarket chilled cabinet.

Bull****. Try Canberra in winter sometime.

The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 18/07/14 10:08, F Murtz wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 18/07/14 08:21, Andy Burns wrote:
F Murtz wrote:

Do British plumbers use silver solder (copper silver phosphor
alloy)for
joining copper pipe in the uk

IANAP, but I'll answer anyway; for water, gas, and heating in domestic
installations it would be unheard of to use silver solder.

Of course all the lead free solder contains a little silver...

which our inverted idiot thinks is 'silver solder'



Now you are going completely stupid My discussion about solder is silver
solder (copper silver phosphor alloy) low silver 2% 5% that is used
mainly by plumbers
It has never been about soft solder except as a side issue
I have not and have never called any form of soft solder with or without
silver, lead etc silver solder.
That is your construct.

Well you claimed plumbers used 'silver solder' but they actually
universally use 'soft solder'

Apparently in the UK they do,in Australia they definitely do not

So it's your choice. You are either wrong that they use 'silver solder'
or you are wrong that silver solder is soft solder.

I most definitely am not wrong that solver solder(brazing)(copper silver
phosphor alloy)is used extensively in Australia to join copper pipe on
almost all new buildings and construction,not so much on small single
residences as they are using plastic now.

Throughout the whole of this discussion when I said silver solder I
meant (copper silver phosphor alloy)You kept waffling about soft solder

Dennis@home wrote:
On 18/07/2014 09:07, F Murtz wrote:
Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Fri, 18 Jul 2014 16:43:00 +1000, F Murtz wrote:

May be joints are not soldered as much in the UK and you use quickfit
substitutes but if they are soldered what do you use?

"Lead free solder" should be used on potable water supplies. Gas,
heating etc I don't think is specified.

"Lead free" is a Tin-Silver-Copper alloy but has melting point only
just above ordinary leaded 60/40. The term "silver solder" over here
would normally refer to brazing with the temperatures above about 450
C, against 200 C or just below for soft soldering.

Lead free soft solder is used over here,mainly by home handymen and
rarely by plumbers who usually use hard silver solder(copper silver
phosphor alloy)

We wouldn't use phosphous in silver solder.
We might use 30%Ag, 36%Cu, 32%Zn, 2%Sn but it isn't needed for plumbing
water systems and it need 650C to use it.
We use the stuff I mention as it it is adequate and not prohibitively
expensive as the higher content stuff, look at the first mentioned in
this list and its recommended use
http://www.metalspraysupplies.com/ms...lversolder.pdf

harryagain wrote:
"F Murtz" wrote in message
b.com...
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 18/07/14 07:43, F Murtz wrote:
Do British plumbers use silver solder (copper silver phosphor alloy)for
joining copper pipe in the uk

No. its not for plumbing. Or soldering.

Its for barzing and heating engineers might use it, but not plumbers.


or are they stuck with the old fashioned
methods .

Nothing old fashined.

May be joints are not soldered as much in the UK and you use
quickfit substitutes but if they are soldered what do you use?
In Australia silver solder is specified in new buildings (units,
flats,domestic complexes, high rises, industrial) for copper pipe
(mostly 5% sometimes 2%

In the UK lead free solder is specified for POTABLE water plumbing. It
has 2-5% silver in it. It is not silver solder, it is not brazing and it
is not 'hard solder'.

Shut up and LISTEN.

you have completely confused 'hard soldering' - brazing - with 'soft
soldering' and the difference between 'silver solder' and 'solder that
has a few percent of silver in it '


I think you have comprehension problems
I am not talking about any form of solder that melts at low temperature
with or without lead silver etc
You keep bringing that up
I am talking about a form of soldering or brazing normally called in
australia and if the truth were known in the UK by the term silver
soldering in which you need a temperature above red to achieve.

May be the problem is word meanings in different countries
It makes no difference to the fact that plumbers extensively use the first
silver solder on this list in Australia.
http://www.metalspraysupplies.com/ms...lversolder.pdf

It seem that maybee the UK does not which seem strange to me as this
method is the most permanent and safest.
If I had joints in concrete or walls or floors or anywhere inaccessible I
would much rather them silver soldered with (copper silver phosphor
alloy)(melting point red)than any form of soft solder


I never heard of a properly done soft soldered joint coming apart. The pipe
would fracture first.
Ergo hard soldering is over the top, a waste of resource.

Large copper pipes in the UK are sometimes brazed.

Why if soft solder is the best?

On 18/07/2014 13:57, F Murtz wrote:
Bob Minchin wrote:
F Murtz wrote:
Do British plumbers use silver solder (copper silver phosphor alloy)for
joining copper pipe in the uk or are they stuck with the old fashioned
methods . May be joints are not soldered as much in the UK and you use
quickfit substitutes but if they are soldered what do you use?
In Australia silver solder is specified in new buildings (units,
flats,domestic complexes, high rises, industrial) for copper pipe
(mostly 5% sometimes 2%
In order to get MCS* approval for my solar thermal system (approval to
get the grant) all joints had to be threaded or compression fittings.
Soldering is forbidden. I asked about silver solder as that was a much
more compact method of getting from say 10mm copper to 1.5" bsp pump
unions but they said "no".
Plain daft as the header tank for the tubes on the roof is silver
soldered and it is MCS approved in its own right as a system component.

*Microgeneration Certification Scheme

very strange,silver soldering(brazing) is miles better than compression.

Not if you want to take apart and reassemble several times...

(no great fan of compression fittings myself, but they have their place)

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
On 18/07/14 09:00, F Murtz wrote:
Andy Burns wrote:
F Murtz wrote:

Do British plumbers use silver solder (copper silver phosphor alloy)for
joining copper pipe in the uk

IANAP, but I'll answer anyway; for water, gas, and heating in domestic
installations it would be unheard of to use silver solder.

If using copper, a "real" plumber would be more likely to use end-feed
solder fittings, rather than "yorkshire" solder-ring fittings.

There has been a rise in plastic pipe with push fittings, for ease of
use by amateur plumbers and for speed of installation on lower-end new
builds. These have probably displaced use of compression fittings by
amateurs.

There are also copper push-fit fittings for use on copper pipe, I can't
see a real plumber using those except to avoid redecoration on existing
installations, an amateur could use them to avoid soldering if working
on an existing copper installation.

Leaving apart specialised installations (refrigeration, oxygen supplies
etc) What advantages does silver solder have for domestic use?

You loaded your question (are they stuck with the old fashioned
methods) so I'll load my answer - I suspect it's a job protection
measure pushed into legislature by industry bodies to keep Joe Bloggs
from DIYing his own plumbing ...

Don't know but we have been using hard silver solder for years and years

No you havent.

Do you heat your pipes to red heat to get the solder to take?

and am truly flummoxed if there were a country not using it and
tradesmen still using soft solder.

You are a clueless **** and I claim my $5

It is not in legislature as such but architects and powers that be
specify it in their new building and it is normal practice elsewhere.
soft solder is still used but usually because it is easier to do than
lug the oxy acetylene about.

You don't need oxy to hard solder either.

Its clear you haven't actually done any brazing or soldering yourself
ever.


For larger copper pipe diameters brazing is common in the UK.
You certainly need oxy/some fuel gas for that.

"F Murtz" wrote in message
b.com...
Richard wrote:
"Rod Speed" wrote in message ...

Robin wrote

In Australia silver solder is specified in new buildings
(units, flats,domestic complexes, high rises, industrial) for copper
pipe (mostly 5% sometimes 2%

Playing safe as there are some water supplies in ANZ which attack
soft solder?

Nope.

UK water supplies are less aggressive

Bull****. The water is in fact a lot harder in quite a bit of Britain.

Oh ****. Rod is here now.

For anyone interested in antipodean plumbing:
http://www.kembla.com/assets/Uploads...s-Handbook.pdf

Also see this from:
https://law.resource.org/pub/nz/ibr/...00.5.2000.html
q
2.6 JOINTING

2.6.1 Silver brazing alloy

2.6.1.1 Copper and copper alloys

Silver brazing alloys for capillary jointing of copper and copper alloy
pipes and fittings shall comply with AS 1167.1 and shall contain a
minimum of 1.8% silver and shall a maximum of 0.05% cadmium.
2.6.1.2 Stainless steel pipes

Silver brazing alloys for capillary jointing of stainless steel pipes
and fittings shall comply with AS 1167.1 and shall contain a minimum of
38% silver and a maximum of 0.05% cadmium.
2.6.2 Soft solders

The following limitations shall apply to the use of soft solder:
Soft solder shall not contain more than 0.1% lead by weight.
Soft solder shall only be used for jointing copper or copper alloy pipes
to capillary fittings of the long engagement type complying with AS 3688.
Soft solder shall not be used with coiled annealed pipes.
NOTE: In certain areas, soft-soldered joints may not be suitable due to
the chemical composition of the water and, hence, their use may not be
permitted.
/q


And, no I'm not a real plumber even though I don't wear a tie.


Dont know if anyone noticed that annealed coil has to be silver soldered
wonder what the case is in the UK

It has virtually disappeared from the UK though it was once common.
Used for underground cold water supplies (now replaced with MDPE, plastic
pipe)
Also in small bore heating systems for individual radiators.

What has a appeared is a very thin guage copper pipe that is hard and can't
be bent cold,.
Down to price of copper I suppose.

Plastic pipe is gaining ground. Some people don't trust the various joining
systems.
There has been various unexpected technical problems with it too.

Also flexible connections for taps/faucets have appeared. Some of them have
been dodgy too.
(Bursting under pressure)

"John Williamson" wrote in message
...
On 18/07/2014 16:34, harryagain wrote:
"Robin" wrote in message
...
NOTE: In certain areas, soft-soldered joints may not be suitable due
to the chemical composition of the water and, hence, their use may
not be permitted.

Thanks. That ties in precisely with what I remember my late cousin (a
ten
pound Pom) telling me.

The problem in the UK arises when lead is leached into the water by acid
water.
First of all they got rid of lead pipes and now even the lead solder in
copper pipe systems.

Lead apparently causes brain damage, even in very small amounts.
Must have a few here got a dose of it.


You do insist on feeding us the lines, don't you?


Ignorant as ever eh?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead#Health_effects

"F Murtz" wrote in message
eb.com...
harryagain wrote:
"F Murtz" wrote in message
b.com...
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 18/07/14 07:43, F Murtz wrote:
Do British plumbers use silver solder (copper silver phosphor
alloy)for
joining copper pipe in the uk

No. its not for plumbing. Or soldering.

Its for barzing and heating engineers might use it, but not plumbers.


or are they stuck with the old fashioned
methods .

Nothing old fashined.

May be joints are not soldered as much in the UK and you use
quickfit substitutes but if they are soldered what do you use?
In Australia silver solder is specified in new buildings (units,
flats,domestic complexes, high rises, industrial) for copper pipe
(mostly 5% sometimes 2%

In the UK lead free solder is specified for POTABLE water plumbing. It
has 2-5% silver in it. It is not silver solder, it is not brazing and
it
is not 'hard solder'.

Shut up and LISTEN.

you have completely confused 'hard soldering' - brazing - with 'soft
soldering' and the difference between 'silver solder' and 'solder that
has a few percent of silver in it '


I think you have comprehension problems
I am not talking about any form of solder that melts at low temperature
with or without lead silver etc
You keep bringing that up
I am talking about a form of soldering or brazing normally called in
australia and if the truth were known in the UK by the term silver
soldering in which you need a temperature above red to achieve.

May be the problem is word meanings in different countries
It makes no difference to the fact that plumbers extensively use the
first
silver solder on this list in Australia.
http://www.metalspraysupplies.com/ms...lversolder.pdf

It seem that maybee the UK does not which seem strange to me as this
method is the most permanent and safest.
If I had joints in concrete or walls or floors or anywhere inaccessible
I
would much rather them silver soldered with (copper silver phosphor
alloy)(melting point red)than any form of soft solder


I never heard of a properly done soft soldered joint coming apart. The
pipe
would fracture first.
Ergo hard soldering is over the top, a waste of resource.

Large copper pipes in the UK are sometimes brazed.

Why if soft solder is the best?

Soft solder fittings are only available up to 54mm/2".
The socket in fittings for large diameter pipes are very shallow relative
to small diameter copper pipe in order to save metal and so keep the price
down. There would be no possibilty of heating large fitting withanything
less than oxy/fuel gas anyway.
Many large fittings/flanges are intended to be brazed with a fillet round
the joint.
Compression joints are available in quite large sizes but they have a ring
of bolts round them rather than a single nut.

Stainless steel has replaced copper for many applications and that is
welded.

On 18/07/14 21:49, Dennis@home wrote:
On 18/07/2014 09:07, F Murtz wrote:
Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Fri, 18 Jul 2014 16:43:00 +1000, F Murtz wrote:

May be joints are not soldered as much in the UK and you use quickfit
substitutes but if they are soldered what do you use?

"Lead free solder" should be used on potable water supplies. Gas,
heating etc I don't think is specified.

"Lead free" is a Tin-Silver-Copper alloy but has melting point only
just above ordinary leaded 60/40. The term "silver solder" over here
would normally refer to brazing with the temperatures above about 450
C, against 200 C or just below for soft soldering.

Lead free soft solder is used over here,mainly by home handymen and
rarely by plumbers who usually use hard silver solder(copper silver
phosphor alloy)

We wouldn't use phosphous in silver solder.
We might use 30%Ag, 36%Cu, 32%Zn, 2%Sn but it isn't needed for plumbing
water systems and it need 650C to use it.

Cu-Sn-P is a valid brazing material with our without silver.


--
Everything you read in newspapers is absolutely true, except for the
rare story of which you happen to have first-hand knowledge. €“ Erwin Knoll

The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 18/07/14 10:08, F Murtz wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 18/07/14 08:21, Andy Burns wrote:
F Murtz wrote:

Do British plumbers use silver solder (copper silver phosphor
alloy)for
joining copper pipe in the uk

IANAP, but I'll answer anyway; for water, gas, and heating in domestic
installations it would be unheard of to use silver solder.

Of course all the lead free solder contains a little silver...

which our inverted idiot thinks is 'silver solder'



Now you are going completely stupid My discussion about solder is silver
solder (copper silver phosphor alloy) low silver 2% 5% that is used
mainly by plumbers
It has never been about soft solder except as a side issue
I have not and have never called any form of soft solder with or without
silver, lead etc silver solder.
That is your construct.

Well you claimed plumbers used 'silver solder' but they actually
universally use 'soft solder'

So it's your choice. You are either wrong that they use 'silver solder'
or you are wrong that silver solder is soft solder.


Some utube for you ( that is never done)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VrlIZW7XBAI
American one
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=07ODV2Bdqow

On 19/07/14 09:54, F Murtz wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 18/07/14 10:08, F Murtz wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 18/07/14 08:21, Andy Burns wrote:
F Murtz wrote:

Do British plumbers use silver solder (copper silver phosphor
alloy)for
joining copper pipe in the uk

IANAP, but I'll answer anyway; for water, gas, and heating in domestic
installations it would be unheard of to use silver solder.

Of course all the lead free solder contains a little silver...

which our inverted idiot thinks is 'silver solder'



Now you are going completely stupid My discussion about solder is silver
solder (copper silver phosphor alloy) low silver 2% 5% that is used
mainly by plumbers
It has never been about soft solder except as a side issue
I have not and have never called any form of soft solder with or without
silver, lead etc silver solder.
That is your construct.

Well you claimed plumbers used 'silver solder' but they actually
universally use 'soft solder'

So it's your choice. You are either wrong that they use 'silver solder'
or you are wrong that silver solder is soft solder.


Some utube for you ( that is never done)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VrlIZW7XBAI

What a waste of gas!

American one
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=07ODV2Bdqow



"Applications for brazing are when temperatures are above 350C"

My hot water never gets to 350C.



It strikes me you are shilling for a company selling expensive products
that no one actually needs.

--
Everything you read in newspapers is absolutely true, except for the
rare story of which you happen to have first-hand knowledge. €“ Erwin Knoll

The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 19/07/14 09:54, F Murtz wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 18/07/14 10:08, F Murtz wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 18/07/14 08:21, Andy Burns wrote:
F Murtz wrote:

Do British plumbers use silver solder (copper silver phosphor
alloy)for
joining copper pipe in the uk

IANAP, but I'll answer anyway; for water, gas, and heating in
domestic
installations it would be unheard of to use silver solder.

Of course all the lead free solder contains a little silver...

which our inverted idiot thinks is 'silver solder'



Now you are going completely stupid My discussion about solder is
silver
solder (copper silver phosphor alloy) low silver 2% 5% that is used
mainly by plumbers
It has never been about soft solder except as a side issue
I have not and have never called any form of soft solder with or
without
silver, lead etc silver solder.
That is your construct.

Well you claimed plumbers used 'silver solder' but they actually
universally use 'soft solder'

So it's your choice. You are either wrong that they use 'silver solder'
or you are wrong that silver solder is soft solder.


Some utube for you ( that is never done)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VrlIZW7XBAI

What a waste of gas!

American one
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=07ODV2Bdqow



"Applications for brazing are when temperatures are above 350C"

My hot water never gets to 350C.



It strikes me you are shilling for a company selling expensive products
that no one actually needs.

It seem to me that you are introducing stupid points, this does not help
your argument the fact he mentions something which applies to a
different area than water reticulation when his other comments do apply
is silly.
I am shilling for no one just pointing out that people do silver solder
(braze) copper pipe in plumbing
The utubes were mainly for your benefit Most other posters realize by
now that Australia and some others silver solder (braze)copper plumbing
and the UK does not much, apparently.

On 19/07/2014 08:44, harryagain wrote:
"John Williamson" wrote in message
...
On 18/07/2014 16:34, harryagain wrote:
Lead apparently causes brain damage, even in very small amounts.
Must have a few here got a dose of it.


You do insist on feeding us the lines, don't you?


Ignorant as ever eh?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead#Health_effects


Yup, you missed my point again. :-)

--
Tciao for Now!

John.

In article om,
F Murtz wrote:
The utubes were mainly for your benefit Most other posters realize by
now that Australia and some others silver solder (braze)copper plumbing
and the UK does not much, apparently.

What would be nice to know - and I'm sure we never will - is just why it
seems to be so common in Oz, since soft soldering works perfectly well in
the UK.

Advantages of soft soldering.

1) Soft solder and flux is relatively cheap.
2) The heat source needed is also cheap - a blowlamp capable with coping
with domestic sizes can be bought for a few quid - although pros will
prefer professional types which have lower running costs.
3) A soldered joint can be disassembled if needed - provided the pipes are
dry.

Disadvantages

1) Requires some skill.
2) Materials to be soldered must be clean.

Advantages of brazing.

1) Stronger.

Disadvantages.

1) Cost of tools required. So high might put it outside DIY.
2) Cost of materials.

--
*Born free - taxed to death *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 19/07/2014 03:37, F Murtz wrote:
harryagain wrote:
....
Large copper pipes in the UK are sometimes brazed.

Why if soft solder is the best?

Soft solder gives significantly higher burst pressures on small
diameters at normal domestic hot or cold water temperatures. However,
the burst pressure of soft solder joints decreases with increases in
both tube size and working temperature. Hard soldered joints, which
anneal and soften the tube, have a constant burst pressure for virtually
any size of tube. Therefore, there comes a point where tube size /
working temperature dictates that hard soldering will give a better joint.

--
Colin Bignell

In article ,
Nightjar \cpb\@ insert my surname here wrote:
On 19/07/2014 03:37, F Murtz wrote:
harryagain wrote:
...
Large copper pipes in the UK are sometimes brazed.

Why if soft solder is the best?

Soft solder gives significantly higher burst pressures on small
diameters at normal domestic hot or cold water temperatures. However,
the burst pressure of soft solder joints decreases with increases in
both tube size and working temperature. Hard soldered joints, which
anneal and soften the tube, have a constant burst pressure for virtually
any size of tube. Therefore, there comes a point where tube size /
working temperature dictates that hard soldering will give a better
joint.

It would also seem that the fitting for larger sizes have less 'overlap'
than for the normal domestic sizes, to save on copper. So therefore are
designed for a 'stronger' method of jointing.

Also I don't think anyone is saying soft soldering is 'the best'. Just
that it does the job adequately for domestic use - so why go for anything
more expensive?

--
*Verbs HAS to agree with their subjects *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"John Williamson" wrote in message ...

On 19/07/2014 08:44, harryagain wrote:
"John Williamson" wrote in message
...
On 18/07/2014 16:34, harryagain wrote:
Lead apparently causes brain damage, even in very small amounts.
Must have a few here got a dose of it.


You do insist on feeding us the lines, don't you?


Ignorant as ever eh?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead#Health_effects


Yup, you missed my point again. :-)

Brain damage due to all the pencils he's sucked the lead from.

Playing safe as there are some water supplies in ANZ which attack soft
solder? UK water supplies are less aggressive - like our spiders,
snakes, fish, .................


and women

On Fri, 18 Jul 2014 09:38:56 +0100, harryagain wrote:

Lead based solders in the UK are not allowed for potable water but are
still widely used for central heating and could be used for hot water.

NO: hot water is still considered potable and lead is prohibited under
the water regs.


--
John Stumbles -- http://yaph.co.uk

How odd of God But not so odd as those who choose
To choose the Jews A Jewish god, yet spurn the Jews

On Fri, 18 Jul 2014 16:43:00 +1000, F Murtz wrote:

Do British plumbers use silver solder (copper silver phosphor alloy)for
joining copper pipe in the uk or are they stuck with the old fashioned
methods . May be joints are not soldered as much in the UK and you use
quickfit substitutes but if they are soldered what do you use? In
Australia silver solder is specified in new buildings (units,
flats,domestic complexes, high rises, industrial) for copper pipe
(mostly 5% sometimes 2%

In the UK "real" plumbers and heating engineers use materials in
compliance with our national regulations: lead-free soft solder for
potable water installations and either lead-free or lead-bearing soft
solder for non-potable such as gas and heating system primary water
circuits.


--
John Stumbles -- http://yaph.co.uk

Sent from my ZX81

On 19/07/2014 19:55, YAPH wrote:
On Fri, 18 Jul 2014 09:38:56 +0100, harryagain wrote:

Lead based solders in the UK are not allowed for potable water but are
still widely used for central heating and could be used for hot water.

NO: hot water is still considered potable and lead is prohibited under
the water regs.


As I understand, and please correct me if I am wrong, it is OK to use
water heated in a combi or similar for cooking or drinking. If so, that
would seem to require that type of HW to be done without leaded solder.

--
Rod

In article ,
YAPH wrote:
On Fri, 18 Jul 2014 16:43:00 +1000, F Murtz wrote:

Do British plumbers use silver solder (copper silver phosphor alloy)for
joining copper pipe in the uk or are they stuck with the old fashioned
methods . May be joints are not soldered as much in the UK and you use
quickfit substitutes but if they are soldered what do you use? In
Australia silver solder is specified in new buildings (units,
flats,domestic complexes, high rises, industrial) for copper pipe
(mostly 5% sometimes 2%

In the UK "real" plumbers and heating engineers use materials in
compliance with our national regulations: lead-free soft solder for
potable water installations and either lead-free or lead-bearing soft
solder for non-potable such as gas and heating system primary water
circuits.

But that's only for new installations. I'm sure there is water supplied
through pure lead pipes still in some places and certainly the ones in this
house use 1970's plumbing fittings.

--
From KT24

Using a RISC OS computer running v5.18

On 18/07/2014 09:45, Andy Burns wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote:

In the UK lead free solder is specified for POTABLE water plumbing. It
has 2-5% silver in it.

If anyone has a functioning silverlight/moonlight plugin and a paid (or
free via library) membership to BSOL, they might copy and paste the
required composition from the BS EN ISO doc I referred to earlier, I'd
be willing to bet it doesn't have any silver ...


Quite right - it's essentially a tin-copper alloy.

BS EN ISO 9453:2006 Alloy 401:

Impurities, max. %:

Pb 0.1
Sb 0.1
Bi 0.1
Au 0.1
In 0.1
Ag 0.01
Al 0.001
As 0.03
Cd 0.002
Fe 0.02

Other

Cu 0.5-0.9%
Sn remainder

.... Has anyone written a Silverlight stream to PDF converter yet...?

--
Andy