Do British plumbers use silver solder (copper silver phosphor alloy)for
joining copper pipe in the uk or are they stuck with the old fashioned
methods . May be joints are not soldered as much in the UK and you use
quickfit substitutes but if they are soldered what do you use?
In Australia silver solder is specified in new buildings (units,
flats,domestic complexes, high rises, industrial) for copper pipe
(mostly 5% sometimes 2%

F Murtz wrote:

Do British plumbers use silver solder (copper silver phosphor alloy)for
joining copper pipe in the uk

IANAP, but I'll answer anyway; for water, gas, and heating in domestic
installations it would be unheard of to use silver solder.

If using copper, a "real" plumber would be more likely to use end-feed
solder fittings, rather than "yorkshire" solder-ring fittings.

There has been a rise in plastic pipe with push fittings, for ease of
use by amateur plumbers and for speed of installation on lower-end new
builds. These have probably displaced use of compression fittings by
amateurs.

There are also copper push-fit fittings for use on copper pipe, I can't
see a real plumber using those except to avoid redecoration on existing
installations, an amateur could use them to avoid soldering if working
on an existing copper installation.

Leaving apart specialised installations (refrigeration, oxygen supplies
etc) What advantages does silver solder have for domestic use?

You loaded your question (are they stuck with the old fashioned
methods) so I'll load my answer - I suspect it's a job protection
measure pushed into legislature by industry bodies to keep Joe Bloggs
from DIYing his own plumbing ...

On Fri, 18 Jul 2014 16:43:00 +1000, F Murtz wrote:

May be joints are not soldered as much in the UK and you use quickfit
substitutes but if they are soldered what do you use?

"Lead free solder" should be used on potable water supplies. Gas,
heating etc I don't think is specified.

"Lead free" is a Tin-Silver-Copper alloy but has melting point only
just above ordinary leaded 60/40. The term "silver solder" over here
would normally refer to brazing with the temperatures above about 450
C, against 200 C or just below for soft soldering.

--
Cheers
Dave.

Andy Burns wrote:
F Murtz wrote:

Do British plumbers use silver solder (copper silver phosphor alloy)for
joining copper pipe in the uk

IANAP, but I'll answer anyway; for water, gas, and heating in domestic
installations it would be unheard of to use silver solder.

If using copper, a "real" plumber would be more likely to use end-feed
solder fittings, rather than "yorkshire" solder-ring fittings.

There has been a rise in plastic pipe with push fittings, for ease of
use by amateur plumbers and for speed of installation on lower-end new
builds. These have probably displaced use of compression fittings by
amateurs.

There are also copper push-fit fittings for use on copper pipe, I can't
see a real plumber using those except to avoid redecoration on existing
installations, an amateur could use them to avoid soldering if working
on an existing copper installation.

Leaving apart specialised installations (refrigeration, oxygen supplies
etc) What advantages does silver solder have for domestic use?

You loaded your question (are they stuck with the old fashioned
methods) so I'll load my answer - I suspect it's a job protection
measure pushed into legislature by industry bodies to keep Joe Bloggs
from DIYing his own plumbing ...

Don't know but we have been using hard silver solder for years and years
and am truly flummoxed if there were a country not using it and
tradesmen still using soft solder.
It is not in legislature as such but architects and powers that be
specify it in their new building and it is normal practice elsewhere.
soft solder is still used but usually because it is easier to do than
lug the oxy acetylene about.

Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Fri, 18 Jul 2014 16:43:00 +1000, F Murtz wrote:

May be joints are not soldered as much in the UK and you use quickfit
substitutes but if they are soldered what do you use?

"Lead free solder" should be used on potable water supplies. Gas,
heating etc I don't think is specified.

"Lead free" is a Tin-Silver-Copper alloy but has melting point only
just above ordinary leaded 60/40. The term "silver solder" over here
would normally refer to brazing with the temperatures above about 450
C, against 200 C or just below for soft soldering.

Lead free soft solder is used over here,mainly by home handymen and
rarely by plumbers who usually use hard silver solder(copper silver
phosphor alloy)

Dave Liquorice wrote:

"Lead free solder" should be used on potable water supplies. Gas,
heating etc I don't think is specified.

I looked on the BES website to see what solders they sell

http://www.bes.co.uk/products/212.asp

the lead free solders required for potable water are to

BS 219 grade 99C
BS EN 29453 alloy #23
BS EN ISO 9453:2006 alloy #401

depending how historic or up to date you want to be

The BSOL site requires silverlight which I normally have disabled, I did
enable it to try to view the ISO version, but silverlight crashed, so I
looked at the Johnson Matthey product spec instead

http://www.jm-metaljoining.com/pdfs-products/Copper-Tin%20solders.pdf

The everyday lead-free solder is 99% tin, 1% copper.

F Murtz wrote:

Andy Burns wrote:

What advantages does silver solder have for domestic use?

Don't know

So why the bee in your bonnet?

"F Murtz" wrote in message
eb.com...

Do British plumbers use silver solder (copper silver phosphor alloy)for
joining copper pipe in the uk or are they stuck with the old fashioned
methods . May be joints are not soldered as much in the UK and you use
quickfit substitutes but if they are soldered what do you use?
In Australia silver solder is specified in new buildings (units,
flats,domestic complexes, high rises, industrial) for copper pipe (mostly
5% sometimes 2%


In a word no!

Having said that my brother had a flat in central London where the pipes
were brazed - so no Tee joint, just a hole cut in the main run and the
branch brazed in. The joins in runs were pipe ends that had been expanded
and brazed. It was sufficiently unusual to provoke comment at the time
(early 1970's)

I've used 'Colphos' which I think is the braze you are referring to on
cooling pipes on my induction furnace and it was a very nice process
requiring no flux, but that was a rather special application where the pipes
also carried enormous currents.

Andrew

In Australia silver solder is specified in new buildings (units,
flats,domestic complexes, high rises, industrial) for copper pipe
(mostly 5% sometimes 2%

Playing safe as there are some water supplies in ANZ which attack soft
solder? UK water supplies are less aggressive - like our spiders,
snakes, fish, .................



--
Robin
reply to address is (meant to be) valid

"Andy Burns" wrote in message
o.uk...
F Murtz wrote:

Do British plumbers use silver solder (copper silver phosphor alloy)for
joining copper pipe in the uk

IANAP, but I'll answer anyway; for water, gas, and heating in domestic
installations it would be unheard of to use silver solder.

If using copper, a "real" plumber would be more likely to use end-feed
solder fittings, rather than "yorkshire" solder-ring fittings.

There has been a rise in plastic pipe with push fittings, for ease of use
by amateur plumbers and for speed of installation on lower-end new builds.
These have probably displaced use of compression fittings by amateurs.

There are also copper push-fit fittings for use on copper pipe, I can't
see a real plumber using those except to avoid redecoration on existing
installations, an amateur could use them to avoid soldering if working on
an existing copper installation.

Leaving apart specialised installations (refrigeration, oxygen supplies
etc) What advantages does silver solder have for domestic use?

You loaded your question (are they stuck with the old fashioned
methods) so I'll load my answer - I suspect it's a job protection measure
pushed into legislature by industry bodies to keep Joe Bloggs from DIYing
his own plumbing ...


You are right in your last remark.
There is a whole wadge of legislation in Oz to prevent DIY in just about
everything.
It is the ultimate nanny society.

Lead based solders in the UK are not allowed for potable water but are still
widely used for central heating and could be used for hot water.

I think electronics also has to be lead free also now.

Probably lead based solder will disappear altogether in the near future.
I think the replacement is mostly zinc.

On 18/07/14 07:43, F Murtz wrote:
Do British plumbers use silver solder (copper silver phosphor alloy)for
joining copper pipe in the uk

No. its not for plumbing. Or soldering.

Its for barzing and heating engineers might use it, but not plumbers.


or are they stuck with the old fashioned
methods .

Nothing old fashined.

May be joints are not soldered as much in the UK and you use
quickfit substitutes but if they are soldered what do you use?
In Australia silver solder is specified in new buildings (units,
flats,domestic complexes, high rises, industrial) for copper pipe
(mostly 5% sometimes 2%

In the UK lead free solder is specified for POTABLE water plumbing. It
has 2-5% silver in it. It is not silver solder, it is not brazing and it
is not 'hard solder'.

Shut up and LISTEN.

you have completely confused 'hard soldering' - brazing - with 'soft
soldering' and the difference between 'silver solder' and 'solder that
has a few percent of silver in it '


--
Everything you read in newspapers is absolutely true, except for the
rare story of which you happen to have first-hand knowledge. €“ Erwin Knoll

On 18/07/14 08:21, Andy Burns wrote:
F Murtz wrote:

Do British plumbers use silver solder (copper silver phosphor alloy)for
joining copper pipe in the uk

IANAP, but I'll answer anyway; for water, gas, and heating in domestic
installations it would be unheard of to use silver solder.

Of course all the lead free solder contains a little silver...

which our inverted idiot thinks is 'silver solder'



--
Everything you read in newspapers is absolutely true, except for the
rare story of which you happen to have first-hand knowledge. €“ Erwin Knoll

On 18/07/14 08:47, Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Fri, 18 Jul 2014 16:43:00 +1000, F Murtz wrote:

May be joints are not soldered as much in the UK and you use quickfit
substitutes but if they are soldered what do you use?

"Lead free solder" should be used on potable water supplies. Gas,
heating etc I don't think is specified.

"Lead free" is a Tin-Silver-Copper alloy but has melting point only
just above ordinary leaded 60/40. The term "silver solder" over here

And all over the English speaking world.


would normally refer to brazing with the temperatures above about 450
C, against 200 C or just below for soft soldering.


Exactly.


--
Everything you read in newspapers is absolutely true, except for the
rare story of which you happen to have first-hand knowledge. €“ Erwin Knoll

On Fri, 18 Jul 2014 09:30:33 +0100, "Robin" wrote:

In Australia silver solder is specified in new buildings (units,
flats,domestic complexes, high rises, industrial) for copper pipe
(mostly 5% sometimes 2%

Playing safe as there are some water supplies in ANZ which attack soft
solder? UK water supplies are less aggressive - like our spiders,
snakes, fish, .................

women ...


--
Regards, Paul Herber, Sandrila Ltd.
http://www.sandrila.co.uk/

On 18/07/14 09:00, F Murtz wrote:
Andy Burns wrote:
F Murtz wrote:

Do British plumbers use silver solder (copper silver phosphor alloy)for
joining copper pipe in the uk

IANAP, but I'll answer anyway; for water, gas, and heating in domestic
installations it would be unheard of to use silver solder.

If using copper, a "real" plumber would be more likely to use end-feed
solder fittings, rather than "yorkshire" solder-ring fittings.

There has been a rise in plastic pipe with push fittings, for ease of
use by amateur plumbers and for speed of installation on lower-end new
builds. These have probably displaced use of compression fittings by
amateurs.

There are also copper push-fit fittings for use on copper pipe, I can't
see a real plumber using those except to avoid redecoration on existing
installations, an amateur could use them to avoid soldering if working
on an existing copper installation.

Leaving apart specialised installations (refrigeration, oxygen supplies
etc) What advantages does silver solder have for domestic use?

You loaded your question (are they stuck with the old fashioned
methods) so I'll load my answer - I suspect it's a job protection
measure pushed into legislature by industry bodies to keep Joe Bloggs
from DIYing his own plumbing ...

Don't know but we have been using hard silver solder for years and years

No you havent.

Do you heat your pipes to red heat to get the solder to take?

and am truly flummoxed if there were a country not using it and
tradesmen still using soft solder.

You are a clueless **** and I claim my $5

It is not in legislature as such but architects and powers that be
specify it in their new building and it is normal practice elsewhere.
soft solder is still used but usually because it is easier to do than
lug the oxy acetylene about.

You don't need oxy to hard solder either.

Its clear you haven't actually done any brazing or soldering yourself ever.


--
Everything you read in newspapers is absolutely true, except for the
rare story of which you happen to have first-hand knowledge. €“ Erwin Knoll

The Natural Philosopher wrote:

In the UK lead free solder is specified for POTABLE water plumbing. It
has 2-5% silver in it.

If anyone has a functioning silverlight/moonlight plugin and a paid (or
free via library) membership to BSOL, they might copy and paste the
required composition from the BS EN ISO doc I referred to earlier, I'd
be willing to bet it doesn't have any silver ...

On 18/07/2014 09:38, harryagain wrote:
Probably lead based solder will disappear altogether in the near future.
I think the replacement is mostly zinc.


Lead free solder is about 95% tin with a bit of silver and a couple of
other minor ingrediants. Tin's easily confused with zinc, as it's a
metal....

--
Tciao for Now!

John.

The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 18/07/14 09:00, F Murtz wrote:
Andy Burns wrote:
F Murtz wrote:

Do British plumbers use silver solder (copper silver phosphor alloy)for
joining copper pipe in the uk

IANAP, but I'll answer anyway; for water, gas, and heating in domestic
installations it would be unheard of to use silver solder.

If using copper, a "real" plumber would be more likely to use end-feed
solder fittings, rather than "yorkshire" solder-ring fittings.

There has been a rise in plastic pipe with push fittings, for ease of
use by amateur plumbers and for speed of installation on lower-end new
builds. These have probably displaced use of compression fittings by
amateurs.

There are also copper push-fit fittings for use on copper pipe, I can't
see a real plumber using those except to avoid redecoration on existing
installations, an amateur could use them to avoid soldering if working
on an existing copper installation.

Leaving apart specialised installations (refrigeration, oxygen supplies
etc) What advantages does silver solder have for domestic use?

You loaded your question (are they stuck with the old fashioned
methods) so I'll load my answer - I suspect it's a job protection
measure pushed into legislature by industry bodies to keep Joe Bloggs
from DIYing his own plumbing ...

Don't know but we have been using hard silver solder for years and years

No you havent.
We have been using silver solder (copper silver phosphor alloy)for years.

Do you heat your pipes to red heat to get the solder to take?
Yes how else would you do it.
you don't need flux copper to copper, flux needed copper to brass.
Have done it for over 60 years

and am truly flummoxed if there were a country not using it and
tradesmen still using soft solder.

You are a clueless **** and I claim my $5

It is not in legislature as such but architects and powers that be
specify it in their new building and it is normal practice elsewhere.
soft solder is still used but usually because it is easier to do than
lug the oxy acetylene about.

You don't need oxy to hard solder either.
No just most common, although plumbers here are using oxy propane
instead of acetylene as it is cheaper, any heating will do if it can get
the temperatures needed even the mapp gas replacement if you have time
to wait depending on the size of pipe

Its clear you haven't actually done any brazing or soldering yourself ever.

Only for over 60 years

Andy Burns wrote:
F Murtz wrote:

Andy Burns wrote:

What advantages does silver solder have for domestic use?

Don't know

So why the bee in your bonnet?

An argument with someone who I thought was usually sensibly but does not
seem so on this subject.

harryagain wrote:
"Andy Burns" wrote in message
o.uk...
F Murtz wrote:

Do British plumbers use silver solder (copper silver phosphor alloy)for
joining copper pipe in the uk

IANAP, but I'll answer anyway; for water, gas, and heating in domestic
installations it would be unheard of to use silver solder.

If using copper, a "real" plumber would be more likely to use end-feed
solder fittings, rather than "yorkshire" solder-ring fittings.

There has been a rise in plastic pipe with push fittings, for ease of use
by amateur plumbers and for speed of installation on lower-end new builds.
These have probably displaced use of compression fittings by amateurs.

There are also copper push-fit fittings for use on copper pipe, I can't
see a real plumber using those except to avoid redecoration on existing
installations, an amateur could use them to avoid soldering if working on
an existing copper installation.

Leaving apart specialised installations (refrigeration, oxygen supplies
etc) What advantages does silver solder have for domestic use?

You loaded your question (are they stuck with the old fashioned
methods) so I'll load my answer - I suspect it's a job protection measure
pushed into legislature by industry bodies to keep Joe Bloggs from DIYing
his own plumbing ...


You are right in your last remark.

But not in this instance, there is no legislation about using silver
solder just industry recommendation and specs set down by
architects,designers and engineers.



There is a whole wadge of legislation in Oz to prevent DIY in just about
everything.
It is the ultimate nanny society.

Lead based solders in the UK are not allowed for potable water but are still
widely used for central heating and could be used for hot water.

I think electronics also has to be lead free also now.

Probably lead based solder will disappear altogether in the near future.
I think the replacement is mostly zinc.

And hence catching the house on fire by accident?
grin.
Brian

--
From the Sofa of Brian Gaff Reply address is active
"F Murtz" wrote in message
b.com...
Andy Burns wrote:
F Murtz wrote:

Do British plumbers use silver solder (copper silver phosphor alloy)for
joining copper pipe in the uk

IANAP, but I'll answer anyway; for water, gas, and heating in domestic
installations it would be unheard of to use silver solder.

If using copper, a "real" plumber would be more likely to use end-feed
solder fittings, rather than "yorkshire" solder-ring fittings.

There has been a rise in plastic pipe with push fittings, for ease of
use by amateur plumbers and for speed of installation on lower-end new
builds. These have probably displaced use of compression fittings by
amateurs.

There are also copper push-fit fittings for use on copper pipe, I can't
see a real plumber using those except to avoid redecoration on existing
installations, an amateur could use them to avoid soldering if working
on an existing copper installation.

Leaving apart specialised installations (refrigeration, oxygen supplies
etc) What advantages does silver solder have for domestic use?

You loaded your question (are they stuck with the old fashioned
methods) so I'll load my answer - I suspect it's a job protection
measure pushed into legislature by industry bodies to keep Joe Bloggs
from DIYing his own plumbing ...

Don't know but we have been using hard silver solder for years and years
and am truly flummoxed if there were a country not using it and tradesmen
still using soft solder.
It is not in legislature as such but architects and powers that be specify
it in their new building and it is normal practice elsewhere.
soft solder is still used but usually because it is easier to do than lug
the oxy acetylene about.

The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 18/07/14 08:21, Andy Burns wrote:
F Murtz wrote:

Do British plumbers use silver solder (copper silver phosphor alloy)for
joining copper pipe in the uk

IANAP, but I'll answer anyway; for water, gas, and heating in domestic
installations it would be unheard of to use silver solder.

Of course all the lead free solder contains a little silver...

which our inverted idiot thinks is 'silver solder'



Now you are going completely stupid My discussion about solder is silver
solder (copper silver phosphor alloy) low silver 2% 5% that is used
mainly by plumbers
It has never been about soft solder except as a side issue
I have not and have never called any form of soft solder with or without
silver, lead etc silver solder.
That is your construct.

Andy Burns wrote:
Dave Liquorice wrote:

"Lead free solder" should be used on potable water supplies. Gas,
heating etc I don't think is specified.

I looked on the BES website to see what solders they sell

http://www.bes.co.uk/products/212.asp

the lead free solders required for potable water are to

BS 219 grade 99C
BS EN 29453 alloy #23
BS EN ISO 9453:2006 alloy #401

depending how historic or up to date you want to be

The BSOL site requires silverlight which I normally have disabled, I did
enable it to try to view the ISO version, but silverlight crashed, so I
looked at the Johnson Matthey product spec instead

http://www.jm-metaljoining.com/pdfs-products/Copper-Tin%20solders.pdf

The everyday lead-free solder is 99% tin, 1% copper.

The thing is that the soft solder discussion has been introduced by
others my discussion was about what we and the makers, suppliers
Australian users call silver solder

http://www.metalspraysupplies.com/ms...lversolder.pdf

The first on this page

The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 18/07/14 08:47, Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Fri, 18 Jul 2014 16:43:00 +1000, F Murtz wrote:

May be joints are not soldered as much in the UK and you use quickfit
substitutes but if they are soldered what do you use?

"Lead free solder" should be used on potable water supplies. Gas,
heating etc I don't think is specified.

"Lead free" is a Tin-Silver-Copper alloy but has melting point only
just above ordinary leaded 60/40. The term "silver solder" over here

And all over the English speaking world.


would normally refer to brazing with the temperatures above about 450
C, against 200 C or just below for soft soldering.


Exactly.


Nothing at all to do with my discussion except the high melting point one

The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 18/07/14 07:43, F Murtz wrote:
Do British plumbers use silver solder (copper silver phosphor alloy)for
joining copper pipe in the uk

No. its not for plumbing. Or soldering.

Its for barzing and heating engineers might use it, but not plumbers.


or are they stuck with the old fashioned
methods .

Nothing old fashined.

May be joints are not soldered as much in the UK and you use
quickfit substitutes but if they are soldered what do you use?
In Australia silver solder is specified in new buildings (units,
flats,domestic complexes, high rises, industrial) for copper pipe
(mostly 5% sometimes 2%

In the UK lead free solder is specified for POTABLE water plumbing. It
has 2-5% silver in it. It is not silver solder, it is not brazing and it
is not 'hard solder'.

Shut up and LISTEN.

you have completely confused 'hard soldering' - brazing - with 'soft
soldering' and the difference between 'silver solder' and 'solder that
has a few percent of silver in it '


I think you have comprehension problems
I am not talking about any form of solder that melts at low temperature
with or without lead silver etc
You keep bringing that up
I am talking about a form of soldering or brazing normally called in
australia and if the truth were known in the UK by the term silver
soldering in which you need a temperature above red to achieve.

May be the problem is word meanings in different countries
It makes no difference to the fact that plumbers extensively use the
first silver solder on this list in Australia.
http://www.metalspraysupplies.com/ms...lversolder.pdf

It seem that maybee the UK does not which seem strange to me as this
method is the most permanent and safest.
If I had joints in concrete or walls or floors or anywhere inaccessible
I would much rather them silver soldered with (copper silver phosphor
alloy)(melting point red)than any form of soft solder

Robin wrote

In Australia silver solder is specified in new buildings
(units, flats,domestic complexes, high rises, industrial) for copper pipe
(mostly 5% sometimes 2%

Playing safe as there are some water supplies in ANZ which attack soft
solder?

Nope.

UK water supplies are less aggressive

Bull****. The water is in fact a lot harder in quite a bit of Britain.

In article m,
F Murtz wrote:
Now you are going completely stupid My discussion about solder is silver
solder (copper silver phosphor alloy) low silver 2% 5% that is used
mainly by plumbers

If you call that silver solder, what do you call real silver solder with a
silver content of approx 40%?

--
*Happiness is seeing your mother-in-law on a milk carton

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

harryagain wrote
Andy Burns wrote
F Murtz wrote

Do British plumbers use silver solder (copper silver phosphor alloy)for
joining copper pipe in the uk

IANAP, but I'll answer anyway; for water, gas, and heating in domestic
installations it would be unheard of to use silver solder.

If using copper, a "real" plumber would be more likely to use end-feed
solder fittings, rather than "yorkshire" solder-ring fittings.

There has been a rise in plastic pipe with push fittings, for ease of use
by amateur plumbers and for speed of installation on lower-end new
builds. These have probably displaced use of compression fittings by
amateurs.

There are also copper push-fit fittings for use on copper pipe, I can't
see a real plumber using those except to avoid redecoration on existing
installations, an amateur could use them to avoid soldering if working on
an existing copper installation.

Leaving apart specialised installations (refrigeration, oxygen supplies
etc) What advantages does silver solder have for domestic use?

You loaded your question (are they stuck with the old fashioned
methods) so I'll load my answer - I suspect it's a job protection measure
pushed into legislature by industry bodies to keep Joe Bloggs from DIYing
his own plumbing ...

You are right in your last remark.

Nope. Yorkshire fittings are perfectly legal.

There is a whole wadge of legislation in Oz to prevent DIY in just about
everything.

Bull****. Just electrical wiring, plumbing and gas.

Lead based solders in the UK are not allowed for potable water but are
still widely used for central heating and could be used for hot water.

I think electronics also has to be lead free also now.

Probably lead based solder will disappear altogether in the near future.

Not a chance.

I think the replacement is mostly zinc.

You're wrong, as always.

On 18/07/2014 10:34, F Murtz wrote:


I think you have comprehension problems
I am not talking about any form of solder that melts at low temperature
with or without lead silver etc
You keep bringing that up
I am talking about a form of soldering or brazing normally called in
australia and if the truth were known in the UK by the term silver
soldering in which you need a temperature above red to achieve.

May be the problem is word meanings in different countries
It makes no difference to the fact that plumbers extensively use the
first silver solder on this list in Australia.
http://www.metalspraysupplies.com/ms...lversolder.pdf

It seem that maybee the UK does not which seem strange to me as this
method is the most permanent and safest.
If I had joints in concrete or walls or floors or anywhere inaccessible
I would much rather them silver soldered with (copper silver phosphor
alloy)(melting point red)than any form of soft solder


Help us here. What is the melting point of the solders used in Australia?

Paul Herber wrote
Robin wrote

In Australia silver solder is specified in new buildings
(units, flats,domestic complexes, high rises, industrial)
for copper pipe (mostly 5% sometimes 2%

Playing safe as there are some water supplies in ANZ which attack soft
solder?
UK water supplies are less aggressive - like our spiders, snakes, fish,
.................

women ...

Try telling that to the ones Maggie Thatcher gored...

"Rod Speed" wrote in message ...

Robin wrote

In Australia silver solder is specified in new buildings
(units, flats,domestic complexes, high rises, industrial) for copper pipe
(mostly 5% sometimes 2%

Playing safe as there are some water supplies in ANZ which attack soft
solder?

Nope.

UK water supplies are less aggressive

Bull****. The water is in fact a lot harder in quite a bit of Britain.

Oh ****. Rod is here now.

For anyone interested in antipodean plumbing:
http://www.kembla.com/assets/Uploads...s-Handbook.pdf

Also see this from:
https://law.resource.org/pub/nz/ibr/...00.5.2000.html
q
2.6 JOINTING

2.6.1 Silver brazing alloy

2.6.1.1 Copper and copper alloys

Silver brazing alloys for capillary jointing of copper and copper alloy
pipes and fittings shall comply with AS 1167.1 and shall contain a minimum
of 1.8% silver and shall a maximum of 0.05% cadmium.
2.6.1.2 Stainless steel pipes

Silver brazing alloys for capillary jointing of stainless steel pipes and
fittings shall comply with AS 1167.1 and shall contain a minimum of 38%
silver and a maximum of 0.05% cadmium.
2.6.2 Soft solders

The following limitations shall apply to the use of soft solder:
Soft solder shall not contain more than 0.1% lead by weight.
Soft solder shall only be used for jointing copper or copper alloy pipes to
capillary fittings of the long engagement type complying with AS 3688.
Soft solder shall not be used with coiled annealed pipes.
NOTE: In certain areas, soft-soldered joints may not be suitable due to the
chemical composition of the water and, hence, their use may not be
permitted.
/q


And, no I'm not a real plumber even though I don't wear a tie.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...

In article m,
F Murtz wrote:
Now you are going completely stupid My discussion about solder is silver
solder (copper silver phosphor alloy) low silver 2% 5% that is used
mainly by plumbers

If you call that silver solder, what do you call real silver solder with a
silver content of approx 40%?

Bullion, unless you're Rod, then bull****.

On 18/07/2014 07:43, F Murtz wrote:

Do British plumbers use silver solder (copper silver phosphor alloy)for
joining copper pipe

Almost never...

in the uk or are they stuck with the old fashioned
methods . May be joints are not soldered as much in the UK and you use
quickfit substitutes but if they are soldered what do you use?

Lead free soft solder is specified in the water regulations for potable
supplies.

Compression is still acceptable for water and gas.

Various makes of push fit for water only

Some emergency of crimping systems as well.

In Australia silver solder is specified in new buildings (units,
flats,domestic complexes, high rises, industrial) for copper pipe
(mostly 5% sometimes 2%

Can't think of any advantages, and plenty of disadvantages in its use
for this application. When copper pipes fail, it is almost never due to
solder failing in the fitting.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

Richard wrote:
"Rod Speed" wrote in message ...

Robin wrote

In Australia silver solder is specified in new buildings
(units, flats,domestic complexes, high rises, industrial) for copper
pipe (mostly 5% sometimes 2%

Playing safe as there are some water supplies in ANZ which attack
soft solder?

Nope.

UK water supplies are less aggressive

Bull****. The water is in fact a lot harder in quite a bit of Britain.

Oh ****. Rod is here now.

For anyone interested in antipodean plumbing:
http://www.kembla.com/assets/Uploads...s-Handbook.pdf

Also see this from:
https://law.resource.org/pub/nz/ibr/...00.5.2000.html
q
2.6 JOINTING

2.6.1 Silver brazing alloy

2.6.1.1 Copper and copper alloys

Silver brazing alloys for capillary jointing of copper and copper alloy
pipes and fittings shall comply with AS 1167.1 and shall contain a
minimum of 1.8% silver and shall a maximum of 0.05% cadmium.
2.6.1.2 Stainless steel pipes

Silver brazing alloys for capillary jointing of stainless steel pipes
and fittings shall comply with AS 1167.1 and shall contain a minimum of
38% silver and a maximum of 0.05% cadmium.
2.6.2 Soft solders

The following limitations shall apply to the use of soft solder:
Soft solder shall not contain more than 0.1% lead by weight.
Soft solder shall only be used for jointing copper or copper alloy pipes
to capillary fittings of the long engagement type complying with AS 3688.
Soft solder shall not be used with coiled annealed pipes.
NOTE: In certain areas, soft-soldered joints may not be suitable due to
the chemical composition of the water and, hence, their use may not be
permitted.
/q


And, no I'm not a real plumber even though I don't wear a tie.

At last a voice in the wilderness, I am not mad Australia does use the
silver solder that I have been talking about and in some cases it is
compulsory contrary to one lot of advice that nowhere in the world does
this happen

On 18/07/2014 10:01, F Murtz wrote:
harryagain wrote:
"Andy Burns" wrote in message
o.uk...
F Murtz wrote:

Do British plumbers use silver solder (copper silver phosphor alloy)for
joining copper pipe in the uk

IANAP, but I'll answer anyway; for water, gas, and heating in domestic
installations it would be unheard of to use silver solder.

If using copper, a "real" plumber would be more likely to use end-feed
solder fittings, rather than "yorkshire" solder-ring fittings.

There has been a rise in plastic pipe with push fittings, for ease of
use
by amateur plumbers and for speed of installation on lower-end new
builds.
These have probably displaced use of compression fittings by amateurs.

There are also copper push-fit fittings for use on copper pipe, I can't
see a real plumber using those except to avoid redecoration on existing
installations, an amateur could use them to avoid soldering if
working on
an existing copper installation.

Leaving apart specialised installations (refrigeration, oxygen supplies
etc) What advantages does silver solder have for domestic use?

You loaded your question (are they stuck with the old fashioned
methods) so I'll load my answer - I suspect it's a job protection
measure
pushed into legislature by industry bodies to keep Joe Bloggs from
DIYing
his own plumbing ...


You are right in your last remark.

But not in this instance, there is no legislation about using silver
solder just industry recommendation and specs set down by
architects,designers and engineers.

Probably part of the closed shop mentality that still seems to pervade
Aus attitudes... it used to be the same here in the '70s - there are
some that would like to go back there as well!

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 18/07/2014 10:13, F Murtz wrote:
Andy Burns wrote:
Dave Liquorice wrote:

"Lead free solder" should be used on potable water supplies. Gas,
heating etc I don't think is specified.

I looked on the BES website to see what solders they sell

http://www.bes.co.uk/products/212.asp

the lead free solders required for potable water are to

BS 219 grade 99C
BS EN 29453 alloy #23
BS EN ISO 9453:2006 alloy #401

depending how historic or up to date you want to be

The BSOL site requires silverlight which I normally have disabled, I did
enable it to try to view the ISO version, but silverlight crashed, so I
looked at the Johnson Matthey product spec instead

http://www.jm-metaljoining.com/pdfs-products/Copper-Tin%20solders.pdf

The everyday lead-free solder is 99% tin, 1% copper.

The thing is that the soft solder discussion has been introduced by
others my discussion was about what we and the makers, suppliers
Australian users call silver solder

We understand what you mean (i.e. what we would call brazing or hard
soldering), but were just highlighting that for plumbing, lead free soft
solder is the norm here.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

newshound wrote:
On 18/07/2014 10:34, F Murtz wrote:


I think you have comprehension problems
I am not talking about any form of solder that melts at low temperature
with or without lead silver etc
You keep bringing that up
I am talking about a form of soldering or brazing normally called in
australia and if the truth were known in the UK by the term silver
soldering in which you need a temperature above red to achieve.

May be the problem is word meanings in different countries
It makes no difference to the fact that plumbers extensively use the
first silver solder on this list in Australia.
http://www.metalspraysupplies.com/ms...lversolder.pdf

It seem that maybee the UK does not which seem strange to me as this
method is the most permanent and safest.
If I had joints in concrete or walls or floors or anywhere inaccessible
I would much rather them silver soldered with (copper silver phosphor
alloy)(melting point red)than any form of soft solder


Help us here. What is the melting point of the solders used in Australia?
It depends, in the case of soft solders they will melt with a soldering
iron or small flame, in the case of the silver solders I have been
talking about the pipe has to be red hot If you want the actual
temperatures it is easy to look up although with the silver solders I
have been talking about sometimes called silver brazing solders, the
temps vary as they have many compositions some with very high amounts of
silver.
The plumbers mainly use the low silver content ones 2% 5%

John Rumm wrote:
On 18/07/2014 07:43, F Murtz wrote:

Do British plumbers use silver solder (copper silver phosphor alloy)for
joining copper pipe

Almost never...

in the uk or are they stuck with the old fashioned
methods . May be joints are not soldered as much in the UK and you use
quickfit substitutes but if they are soldered what do you use?

Lead free soft solder is specified in the water regulations for potable
supplies.

Compression is still acceptable for water and gas.

Various makes of push fit for water only

Some emergency of crimping systems as well.

In Australia silver solder is specified in new buildings (units,
flats,domestic complexes, high rises, industrial) for copper pipe
(mostly 5% sometimes 2%

Can't think of any advantages, and plenty of disadvantages in its use
for this application. When copper pipes fail, it is almost never due to
solder failing in the fitting.


When I was handymaning I came across many failings of soft solder in
brick walls, usually in the bathrooms never with silver soldered joints

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article m,
F Murtz wrote:
Now you are going completely stupid My discussion about solder is silver
solder (copper silver phosphor alloy) low silver 2% 5% that is used
mainly by plumbers

If you call that silver solder, what do you call real silver solder with a
silver content of approx 40%?

Silver solder or if you prefer,
40% Silver solder.

John Rumm wrote:
On 18/07/2014 10:13, F Murtz wrote:
Andy Burns wrote:
Dave Liquorice wrote:

"Lead free solder" should be used on potable water supplies. Gas,
heating etc I don't think is specified.

I looked on the BES website to see what solders they sell

http://www.bes.co.uk/products/212.asp

the lead free solders required for potable water are to

BS 219 grade 99C
BS EN 29453 alloy #23
BS EN ISO 9453:2006 alloy #401

depending how historic or up to date you want to be

The BSOL site requires silverlight which I normally have disabled, I did
enable it to try to view the ISO version, but silverlight crashed, so I
looked at the Johnson Matthey product spec instead

http://www.jm-metaljoining.com/pdfs-products/Copper-Tin%20solders.pdf

The everyday lead-free solder is 99% tin, 1% copper.

The thing is that the soft solder discussion has been introduced by
others my discussion was about what we and the makers, suppliers
Australian users call silver solder

We understand what you mean (i.e. what we would call brazing or hard
soldering), but were just highlighting that for plumbing, lead free soft
solder is the norm here.


You may know what I mean and most others may know . but one did not or
this discussion would not be going on.