Hi All,

I am just looking at buying a floodlight and was having a look at the LED models now on offer (it's to be used at a camp where the energy budget is LOW (45A MCB on the main supply cable and we need to run a small PA system, house lighting for a Marquee (3 x twin tube flourescents at 110W per luminaire is what i'm thinking), hopefully a (this) flood for the "stage" an urn for tea and coffee, small water heater for the sink and basin taps, occasional use of twin hob Baby Belling sytle cooker and George Forman type grill(s). Even with diversity, I think it's going to be tight!).

Anyways, i've just been having a look at

http://www.screwfix.com/p/xq-lite-20...ght-240v/10988

Which is listed as a 20W device, but the Screwfix* details suggest fusing it at 16A. My OHMS,s law is a little rusty, but these two figures seem incompatible to me (it is a 240V device).

Do these things have a huge inrush current? or are Screwfix talking nonsense?

TIA

Chris

*I'd much rather have gone to the local Wholesale Fittings,but they seem to have died, I don't know if Screwfix having arrived on the trading estate a couple of years ago was the cause of this. Mind you, having had a look at their website, unless they are doing very nicely with traditional business from their account customers, I can't see them lasting much longer at all. But perhaps they don't want business from the likes of me.

On Thursday, June 26, 2014 10:43:55 AM UTC+1, wrote:

Hi All,
I am just looking at buying a floodlight and was having a look at the LED models now on offer (it's to be used at a camp where the energy budget is LOW (45A MCB on the main supply cable

that's huge

and we need to run a small PA system,

couple hundred watts?

house lighting for a Marquee (3 x twin tube flourescents at 110W per luminaire is what i'm thinking), hopefully a (this) flood for the "stage" an urn for tea and coffee,

2-3kW presumably

small water heater for the sink and basin taps,

?

occasional use of twin hob Baby Belling sytle cooker

typically 3kW with interlocked elements

and George Forman type grill(s).

1-1.5kW?

Even with diversity, I think it's going to be tight!).

Well, if you interlock prioritised loads it wont be hard at all. What I mean is decide on a list of load priorities, and automatically shed lower priority loads when enough power isnt there to run them. Its possible to run an entire flat on a 5A feed that way, albeit with compromises. DAMHIK.

Its best done automatically with some electronics, but it is also possbile to just do it manually. Write the current consumption on each plug, and only plug in upto 45A at any one time.

There are other tricks too, such as switching 2 water heaters to half power when current budget runs out. Feed each via a diode so one gets +ve half cycles, the other -ve.

If the sink heater is just 3kW those only add upto 10.5kW anyway, which is well within the abilities of a 45A feed.


Anyways, i've just been having a look at
http://www.screwfix.com/p/xq-lite-20...ght-240v/10988
Which is listed as a 20W device, but the Screwfix* details suggest fusing it at 16A. My OHMS,s law is a little rusty, but these two figures seem incompatible to me (it is a 240V device).
Do these things have a huge inrush current? or are Screwfix talking nonsense?

20w is 1/12th of an amp, and the usual available feeds will be fused at 5A, 10A and 13A, so a 16A fuse does seem a little weird.


NT

On 26/06/2014 12:36, wrote:
On Thursday, June 26, 2014 10:43:55 AM UTC+1, wrote:

Hi All,

I am just looking at buying a floodlight and was having a look at the LED models now on offer (it's to be used at a camp where the energy budget is LOW (45A MCB on the main supply cable

that's huge

Certainly enough to support ~10kW continuous load and briefly higher peaks.

and we need to run a small PA system,

couple hundred watts?

Probably less unless it is disco night when they always seem to wind the
wick up until it hits the end stop and clipping ensues.

house lighting for a Marquee (3 x twin tube flourescents at 110W per luminaire is what i'm thinking), hopefully a (this) flood for the "stage" an urn for tea and coffee,

2-3kW presumably

small water heater for the sink and basin taps,

?

Probably also 2-3kW although you can get slower highly insulated ones
that make a volume of warm water and hold it at temperature. This works
well until someone runs the tap continuously to get it nice and hot!

We have on in our downstairs VH kitchen.

occasional use of twin hob Baby Belling sytle cooker

typically 3kW with interlocked elements

Microwave or combo oven probably more useful.

and George Forman type grill(s).

1-1.5kW?

Even with diversity, I think it's going to be tight!).

Well, if you interlock prioritised loads it wont be hard at all. What I mean is decide on a list of load priorities, and automatically shed lower priority loads when enough power isnt there to run them. Its possible to run an entire flat on a 5A feed that way, albeit with compromises. DAMHIK.

Basically just ensure that the ovens and the hot water are never on
together and you should have enough supply margin. Have a plan or
detailed instructions on what to do if the circuit does trip.

(as sure as eggs are eggs someone will bring in extra kettles for a big
event and just plug them in without even thinking about it)

Its best done automatically with some electronics, but it is also possbile to just do it manually. Write the current consumption on each plug, and only plug in upto 45A at any one time.

You can't trust end users to do this! I have caught our church Sunday
afternoon tea ladies with two 3kW kettles plugged into a fully wound up
four way extension cable running flat out. They melted its predecessor.

I now insist that all VH extension cables have thermal cutouts.

Actually this might be an application of the OWL current monitor alarm
feature which we have set on our VH so that at 90% of nominal rated load
it sounds a warning. The thing is mainly there to make sure people don't
leave it with the expensive immersion heater or fan heaters on.

There are other tricks too, such as switching 2 water heaters to half power when current budget runs out. Feed each via a diode so one gets +ve half cycles, the other -ve.

That *is* cunning.

If the sink heater is just 3kW those only add upto 10.5kW anyway, which is well within the abilities of a 45A feed.

Anyways, i've just been having a look at
http://www.screwfix.com/p/xq-lite-20...ght-240v/10988
Which is listed as a 20W device, but the Screwfix* details suggest fusing it at 16A. My OHMS,s law is a little rusty, but these two figures seem incompatible to me (it is a 240V device).
Do these things have a huge inrush current? or are Screwfix talking nonsense?

20w is 1/12th of an amp, and the usual available feeds will be fused at 5A, 10A and 13A, so a 16A fuse does seem a little weird.

Have a look at Thomann in case they have something more suitable for
your needs (we actually have the previous generation of these).

http://www.thomann.de/gb/stairville_..._4in1_rgbw.htm

More expensive than a plain vanilla white one but you have the option of
colour control and built in sound to light. Minor irritation is it will
come with European mains plug. Their white ones are overpriced.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

wrote in message
...
Hi All,

I am just looking at buying a floodlight and was having a look at the LED
models now on offer (it's to be used at a camp where the energy budget is
LOW (45A MCB on the main supply cable and we need to run a small PA system,
house lighting for a Marquee (3 x twin tube flourescents at 110W per
luminaire is what i'm thinking), hopefully a (this) flood for the "stage" an
urn for tea and coffee, small water heater for the sink and basin taps,
occasional use of twin hob Baby Belling sytle cooker and George Forman type
grill(s). Even with diversity, I think it's going to be tight!).

Anyways, i've just been having a look at

http://www.screwfix.com/p/xq-lite-20...ght-240v/10988

Which is listed as a 20W device, but the Screwfix* details suggest fusing it
at 16A. My OHMS,s law is a little rusty, but these two figures seem
incompatible to me (it is a 240V device).

Do these things have a huge inrush current? or are Screwfix talking
nonsense?

TIA

Chris

Screwfix page says MAX fusing 16A.
I recently installed a 50W led floodlight. That works quite happily from a
switched fused spur (fcu) with a 1A fuse.
FWIW, the 50W floodlight looks very similar to the Screwfix 20W item. From
ebay the 50W cost less inc. p+p than the one you are looking at.
HTH
Nick.

On Thursday, June 26, 2014 1:32:11 PM UTC+1, Martin Brown wrote:
On 26/06/2014 12:36, wrote:

On Thursday, June 26, 2014 10:43:55 AM UTC+1, wrote:



Hi All,



I am just looking at buying a floodlight and was having a look at the LED models now on offer (it's to be used at a camp where the energy budget is LOW (45A MCB on the main supply cable



that's huge



Certainly enough to support ~10kW continuous load and briefly higher peaks.



and we need to run a small PA system,



couple hundred watts?



Probably less unless it is disco night when they always seem to wind the

wick up until it hits the end stop and clipping ensues.



house lighting for a Marquee (3 x twin tube flourescents at 110W per luminaire is what i'm thinking), hopefully a (this) flood for the "stage" an urn for tea and coffee,



2-3kW presumably



small water heater for the sink and basin taps,



?



Probably also 2-3kW although you can get slower highly insulated ones

that make a volume of warm water and hold it at temperature. This works

well until someone runs the tap continuously to get it nice and hot!



We have on in our downstairs VH kitchen.



occasional use of twin hob Baby Belling sytle cooker



typically 3kW with interlocked elements



Microwave or combo oven probably more useful.



and George Forman type grill(s).



1-1.5kW?



Even with diversity, I think it's going to be tight!).



Well, if you interlock prioritised loads it wont be hard at all. What I mean is decide on a list of load priorities, and automatically shed lower priority loads when enough power isnt there to run them. Its possible to run an entire flat on a 5A feed that way, albeit with compromises. DAMHIK.



Basically just ensure that the ovens and the hot water are never on

together and you should have enough supply margin. Have a plan or

detailed instructions on what to do if the circuit does trip.



(as sure as eggs are eggs someone will bring in extra kettles for a big

event and just plug them in without even thinking about it)



Its best done automatically with some electronics, but it is also possbile to just do it manually. Write the current consumption on each plug, and only plug in upto 45A at any one time.



You can't trust end users to do this! I have caught our church Sunday

afternoon tea ladies with two 3kW kettles plugged into a fully wound up

four way extension cable running flat out. They melted its predecessor.



I now insist that all VH extension cables have thermal cutouts.



Actually this might be an application of the OWL current monitor alarm

feature which we have set on our VH so that at 90% of nominal rated load

it sounds a warning. The thing is mainly there to make sure people don't

leave it with the expensive immersion heater or fan heaters on.



There are other tricks too, such as switching 2 water heaters to half power when current budget runs out. Feed each via a diode so one gets +ve half cycles, the other -ve.



That *is* cunning.



If the sink heater is just 3kW those only add upto 10.5kW anyway, which is well within the abilities of a 45A feed.



Anyways, i've just been having a look at

http://www.screwfix.com/p/xq-lite-20...ght-240v/10988

Which is listed as a 20W device, but the Screwfix* details suggest fusing it at 16A. My OHMS,s law is a little rusty, but these two figures seem incompatible to me (it is a 240V device).

Do these things have a huge inrush current? or are Screwfix talking nonsense?



20w is 1/12th of an amp, and the usual available feeds will be fused at 5A, 10A and 13A, so a 16A fuse does seem a little weird.



Have a look at Thomann in case they have something more suitable for

your needs (we actually have the previous generation of these).



http://www.thomann.de/gb/stairville_..._4in1_rgbw.htm



More expensive than a plain vanilla white one but you have the option of

colour control and built in sound to light. Minor irritation is it will

come with European mains plug. Their white ones are overpriced.



--

Regards,

Martin Brown

Cheers for that guys. I had forgotten the Microwave.... and the Fridge Freezer....and the Freezer. Oh, and the large screen TV. There are a couple of kettles on site, but i'd already warned "catering" that they would probably put everything in darkness if they turn them on.

This Site is fed by an underground cable which was protected by an 80 Amp Fuse which always coped with everything we threw at it, but a qualified sparks has recently (quite correctly) changed this for a 45 Amp (I think that was the figure, it was round there) MCB as that is all the underground cable is rated for.

I will have a look at the Stage lights, but a small white flood is probably enough and I've blown the electrics budget on the flourescents.

In article ,
"Nick" writes:
Screwfix page says MAX fusing 16A.
I recently installed a 50W led floodlight. That works quite happily from a
switched fused spur (fcu) with a 1A fuse.
FWIW, the 50W floodlight looks very similar to the Screwfix 20W item. From
ebay the 50W cost less inc. p+p than the one you are looking at.
HTH
Nick.

There seem to be a glut of these around - CPC also sell them.

I bought one, and was disappointed with the light output.
The 20W one was noticably less light output than a 17W one from
CPC (sold as a worklamp), and noticably lower colour rendering.
I think they are using cheap lower efficiency power LED modules.

The case is nicely made.
I removed and chucked the LED and driver, and bought 4 x 7W
LED modules from Rapid and built a power supply for them.
Can't quite run them at 28W (case was only designed for 20W).

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

On Thu, 26 Jun 2014 14:23:56 +0000 (UTC), Andrew Gabriel wrote:

There seem to be a glut of these around - CPC also sell them.

Yes, and they aren't all created equal. I've got a 10 W one (from
Amazon I think). The bracket pivot screws are plated steel and where
showing signs of rust within 24 hrs of being outside... Some say they
have stainless screws but that *may* only be refering to the ones
holding the front cover on. Caveat emptor.

--
Cheers
Dave.

On Thu, 26 Jun 2014 04:36:29 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

Its best done automatically with some electronics, but it is also
possbile to just do it manually. Write the current consumption on each
plug, and only plug in upto 45A at any one time.

Not going to happen, most people are so used to just plugging
anything in anywhere and it working they get very confused if the
circuit trips. Was in the Dr's Surgery a while back and the power
tripped, came back then tripped again, rinse an repeat a few times.
Turns out the gas heating had packed in so they had half a dozen
electric heaters on...

Or take the example of the urn and kettle (ordinary not rapid boil)
to provide tea and coffee on outside broadcasts. The urn takes to
long first thing, even with a minimal amount of water in it. So the
kettle and urn are used at the same time, this is fine on a 16 A feed
from the generator but occasionally the feed is a 13 A plugtop. That
13 A fuse lasts about 5 mins if that. The number of my supposedly
"technical" colleagues who just can't understand this is rather
depressing.

--
Cheers
Dave.

wrote in message
...
Hi All,

I am just looking at buying a floodlight and was having a look at the LED
models now on offer (it's to be used at a camp where the energy budget is
LOW (45A MCB on the main supply cable and we need to run a small PA system,
house lighting for a Marquee (3 x twin tube flourescents at 110W per
luminaire is what i'm thinking), hopefully a (this) flood for the "stage" an
urn for tea and coffee, small water heater for the sink and basin taps,
occasional use of twin hob Baby Belling sytle cooker and George Forman type
grill(s). Even with diversity, I think it's going to be tight!).

Anyways, i've just been having a look at

http://www.screwfix.com/p/xq-lite-20...ght-240v/10988

Which is listed as a 20W device, but the Screwfix* details suggest fusing it
at 16A.

It says "max fusing 16A"

--
Adam

On Thursday, June 26, 2014 2:44:14 PM UTC+1, wrote:
On Thursday, June 26, 2014 1:32:11 PM UTC+1, Martin Brown wrote:
On 26/06/2014 12:36, wrote:
On Thursday, June 26, 2014 10:43:55 AM UTC+1, wrote:

Hi All,
I am just looking at buying a floodlight and was having a look at the LED models now on offer (it's to be used at a camp where the energy budget is LOW (45A MCB on the main supply cable

that's huge
Certainly enough to support ~10kW continuous load and briefly higher peaks.
and we need to run a small PA system,

couple hundred watts?
Probably less unless it is disco night when they always seem to wind the
wick up until it hits the end stop and clipping ensues.
house lighting for a Marquee (3 x twin tube flourescents at 110W per luminaire is what i'm thinking), hopefully a (this) flood for the "stage" an urn for tea and coffee,

2-3kW presumably

small water heater for the sink and basin taps,

?
Probably also 2-3kW although you can get slower highly insulated ones
that make a volume of warm water and hold it at temperature. This works
well until someone runs the tap continuously to get it nice and hot!
We have on in our downstairs VH kitchen.

occasional use of twin hob Baby Belling sytle cooker

typically 3kW with interlocked elements
Microwave or combo oven probably more useful.
and George Forman type grill(s).

1-1.5kW?

Even with diversity, I think it's going to be tight!).

Well, if you interlock prioritised loads it wont be hard at all. What I mean is decide on a list of load priorities, and automatically shed lower priority loads when enough power isnt there to run them. Its possible to run an entire flat on a 5A feed that way, albeit with compromises. DAMHIK..
Basically just ensure that the ovens and the hot water are never on
together and you should have enough supply margin. Have a plan or
detailed instructions on what to do if the circuit does trip.
(as sure as eggs are eggs someone will bring in extra kettles for a big
event and just plug them in without even thinking about it)

Its best done automatically with some electronics, but it is also possbile to just do it manually. Write the current consumption on each plug, and only plug in upto 45A at any one time.
You can't trust end users to do this! I have caught our church Sunday
afternoon tea ladies with two 3kW kettles plugged into a fully wound up
four way extension cable running flat out. They melted its predecessor.

On Thursday, June 26, 2014 5:16:32 PM UTC+1, Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Thu, 26 Jun 2014 04:36:29 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

Its best done automatically with some electronics, but it is also
possbile to just do it manually. Write the current consumption on each
plug, and only plug in upto 45A at any one time.

Not going to happen, most people are so used to just plugging
anything in anywhere and it working they get very confused if the
circuit trips.

It depends on the situation. If the person that trips the feed is suitably punished they learn. I dont mean by sitting on the naughty step, but by the results of their actions. It works in the eastern bloc with flats on 8A feeds, overload it and you're inconvenienced.


Was in the Dr's Surgery a while back and the power
tripped, came back then tripped again, rinse an repeat a few times.
Turns out the gas heating had packed in so they had half a dozen
electric heaters on...
Or take the example of the urn and kettle (ordinary not rapid boil)
to provide tea and coffee on outside broadcasts. The urn takes to
long first thing, even with a minimal amount of water in it. So the
kettle and urn are used at the same time, this is fine on a 16 A feed
from the generator but occasionally the feed is a 13 A plugtop. That
13 A fuse lasts about 5 mins if that. The number of my supposedly
"technical" colleagues who just can't understand this is rather
depressing.

Putting a number on each plug makes it elementary. But if you're dealing with employees they too often couldnt care.


NT

In article o.uk,
"Dave Liquorice" writes:
Not going to happen, most people are so used to just plugging
anything in anywhere and it working they get very confused if the
circuit trips. Was in the Dr's Surgery a while back and the power
tripped, came back then tripped again, rinse an repeat a few times.
Turns out the gas heating had packed in so they had half a dozen
electric heaters on...

There was a larger scale one in Luton some years back.
Major gas main failure cut off gas to a neighbourhood.
Gas company delivered electric heaters to all the houses.
An hour later, substation transformer burned out (ISTR
it exploded into flames).

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

On Thursday, June 26, 2014 7:02:53 PM UTC+1, Andrew Gabriel wrote:
In article o.uk,

"Dave Liquorice" writes:

Not going to happen, most people are so used to just plugging

anything in anywhere and it working they get very confused if the

circuit trips. Was in the Dr's Surgery a while back and the power

tripped, came back then tripped again, rinse an repeat a few times.

Turns out the gas heating had packed in so they had half a dozen

electric heaters on...



There was a larger scale one in Luton some years back.

Major gas main failure cut off gas to a neighbourhood.

Gas company delivered electric heaters to all the houses.

An hour later, substation transformer burned out (ISTR

it exploded into flames).



--

Andrew Gabriel

[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

Thanks for all the replies guys. It has turned into an interesting and entertaining thread as is usual round here. I think I will go with a conventional 300W Flood which is what I've used in the past. If it turns out to be the last straw, i'll just turn it off.

The professional sparks will be on site, so if it all goes pear shaped he may be able to do some proessional sparky magic with a type D (if that's not what he's used already), or something else.

Chris

On 27/06/14 08:59, wrote:

The professional sparks will be on site, so if it all goes pear
shaped he may be able to do some proessional sparky magic with a type
D (if that's not what he's used already), or something else.

I can be pretty sure he will not have a type D - the Zs (loop impedance)
requirements are very hard to meet - you pretty much need a transformer
nearby and your 600A distribution panel in the next room!

Type C is about as far as you can usefully go outside of a commercial
building with big heavy local distribution cables.

On Friday, June 27, 2014 9:18:29 AM UTC+1, Tim Watts wrote:
On 27/06/14 08:59, wrote:



The professional sparks will be on site, so if it all goes pear

shaped he may be able to do some proessional sparky magic with a type

D (if that's not what he's used already), or something else.

I can never remember the correct technical term, but earthing is via a local earth rod.

I can be pretty sure he will not have a type D - the Zs (loop impedance)

requirements are very hard to meet - you pretty much need a transformer

nearby and your 600A distribution panel in the next room!



Type C is about as far as you can usefully go outside of a commercial

building with big heavy local distribution cables.

On Fri, 27 Jun 2014 00:59:02 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

On Thursday, June 26, 2014 7:02:53 PM UTC+1, Andrew Gabriel wrote:
In article o.uk,

"Dave Liquorice" writes:

Not going to happen, most people are so used to just plugging

anything in anywhere and it working they get very confused if the

circuit trips. Was in the Dr's Surgery a while back and the power

tripped, came back then tripped again, rinse an repeat a few times.

Turns out the gas heating had packed in so they had half a dozen

electric heaters on...



There was a larger scale one in Luton some years back.

Major gas main failure cut off gas to a neighbourhood.

Gas company delivered electric heaters to all the houses.

An hour later, substation transformer burned out (ISTR

it exploded into flames).



--

Andrew Gabriel

[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

Thanks for all the replies guys. It has turned into an interesting and entertaining thread as is usual round here. I think I will go with a conventional 300W Flood which is what I've used in the past. If it turns out to be the last straw, i'll just turn it off.

It's worth considering that a 300W linear halogen lamp will have a
turn on surge that equates very closely to the current draw of a 3KW
electric kettle. Whilst a 20 to 50 watt LED lamp might create a switch
on surge, I rather suspect it won't be quite the magnitude of a 300W
linear halogen lamp.
--
J B Good

On 27/06/14 15:27, Johny B Good wrote:
It's worth considering that a 300W linear halogen lamp will have a
turn on surge that equates very closely to the current draw of a 3KW
electric kettle. Whilst a 20 to 50 watt LED lamp might create a switch
on surge, I rather suspect it won't be quite the magnitude of a 300W
linear halogen lamp.


I very much doubt the LED +PSU has any noticeable power on surge, unless
it's PSU is large magnetic (50Hz) transformer. Don't think there's too
much to worry about

On Friday, June 27, 2014 8:59:02 AM UTC+1, wrote:


Thanks for all the replies guys. It has turned into an interesting and entertaining thread as is usual round here. I think I will go with a conventional 300W Flood which is what I've used in the past. If it turns out to be the last straw, i'll just turn it off.
The professional sparks will be on site, so if it all goes pear shaped he may be able to do some proessional sparky magic with a type D (if that's not what he's used already), or something else.
Chris

I can only suggest that that's not a good choice now for outdoor lighting


NT

On Friday, June 27, 2014 6:34:04 PM UTC+1, Tim Watts wrote:
On 27/06/14 15:27, Johny B Good wrote:

It's worth considering that a 300W linear halogen lamp will have a
turn on surge that equates very closely to the current draw of a 3KW
electric kettle. Whilst a 20 to 50 watt LED lamp might create a switch
on surge, I rather suspect it won't be quite the magnitude of a 300W
linear halogen lamp.

I very much doubt the LED +PSU has any noticeable power on surge, unless
it's PSU is large magnetic (50Hz) transformer. Don't think there's too
much to worry about

Both CR and smpsu PSUs do have a switch on current surge, but the i squared t is tiny compared to a 300w filament lamp.


NT

In article ,
Johny B Good writes:
It's worth considering that a 300W linear halogen lamp will have a
turn on surge that equates very closely to the current draw of a 3KW
electric kettle.

Worse than that - initial current draw is typically 17x running current,
which would be a 5.1kW electric kettle ;-)

Whilst a 20 to 50 watt LED lamp might create a switch
on surge, I rather suspect it won't be quite the magnitude of a 300W
linear halogen lamp.

It will be much shorter, and and probably somewhat lower depending on
the quality of the PSU.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]