My mother's central heating boiler is a bit on the old and
temperamental side (a bit like her), so I was happy that she went to
get a quote for a replacement. I was shocked, however, at the price
quoted by British Gas of £2,700 for a Potterton Promax. The work
quoted for is minimal, just replacing the boiler in it's existing
location, no alterations to the controls or the cylinder.

Unfortunately, my mother is from the old school of, "Well, if that's
the price the Gas Board have said, then that's what I have to pay",
and she's given a deposit. I intend to have words with the salesman,
but what would be regarded as a fair price for this work?
--
Hugo Nebula
"You know, I'd rather see this on TV,
Tones it down" - Laurie Anderson

"Hugo Nebula" wrote in message
...
My mother's central heating boiler is a bit on the old and
temperamental side (a bit like her), so I was happy that she went to
get a quote for a replacement. I was shocked, however, at the price
quoted by British Gas of £2,700 for a Potterton Promax. The work
quoted for is minimal, just replacing the boiler in it's existing
location, no alterations to the controls or the cylinder.

Unfortunately, my mother is from the old school of, "Well, if that's
the price the Gas Board have said, then that's what I have to pay",
and she's given a deposit. I intend to have words with the salesman,
but what would be regarded as a fair price for this work?
--
Hugo Nebula
"You know, I'd rather see this on TV,
Tones it down" - Laurie Anderson

A Google search reveals a Potterton Promax 24 HE costs about £750.00, so £2K
for installation looks a bit steep. My own experience recently for a CH
system was BG £10500 +VAT, local company £5800 including VAT. Guess who got
the job and indeed did a good job.

Peter.

"Hugo Nebula" wrote in message

shocked, however, at the price quoted by British Gas of
£2,700 for a Potterton Promax.

That's way over the odds, however heating engineers are in short supply at
present and they're pretty much in a position where they can exploit that to
hold their customers to ransom.

My floorstanding Potterton recently died, it had had its day, and the
installation was an obvious deathtrap. I had a hell of a job finding
somebody to replace it. A initial quote was £2600 from a fly by night cash
in hand council guy. I was later quoted £1500 plus vat by a highly regarded
CORGI registered business. They got the job!

£1900 inc. got me a new boiler (Worcester) re-siting to a cupboard at the
other end of the bungalow - The previous boiler had been on the kitchen
floor. Also included were electronic valves to modernise the pipework, a
modern flue instead of the chimneystack, and plumbing to account for the
move.

Essentially, £2700 is daylight robbery in my opinion. If it's 5 hours work,
£360 per hour seems a bit steep for fitting! http://tinyurl.com/v8hg

Andy

On Sun, 16 Nov 2003 18:15:24 +0000, Hugo Nebula
wrote:

My mother's central heating boiler is a bit on the old and
temperamental side (a bit like her), so I was happy that she went to
get a quote for a replacement. I was shocked, however, at the price
quoted by British Gas of £2,700 for a Potterton Promax. The work
quoted for is minimal, just replacing the boiler in it's existing
location, no alterations to the controls or the cylinder.

Unfortunately, my mother is from the old school of, "Well, if that's
the price the Gas Board have said, then that's what I have to pay",
and she's given a deposit. I intend to have words with the salesman,
but what would be regarded as a fair price for this work?

Oh dear. This is the second of these situations in a week just among
a relatively small community of this newsgroup. One wonders how
many thousands of other identical cases of people being ripped off by
BG are happening per week - must be thousands.

It is particularly repugnant that they are taking advantage of an
elderly person who has basically trusted the "Gas Board" probably for
all their life. It's one thing to use a brand to justify a higher
price, but this is ridiculous.

You don't say which model of Promax it is, but at Discounted Heating,
which in itself is going to be above BG's buy prices, these range from
£687 inc. for the basic 15kW model to £879 inc. for the larger 32kW
system model.

There is presumably the provisioning of a condensate drain, but even
then this is not a big deal. Are there really no additional controls
required to comply with part L1 etc.?

Hopefully Mr. Sirett or Mr. Stumbles will be along shortly to give an
indicative price.

Do you not know any CORGI fitters by virtue of your BCO activity?
Surely they would be a good option in comparison to Dick Turpin, PLC.

Certainly I'd take this up with the salesman, although I would also
check how much price discretion that they and their management have.
In most large organisations, each level has limits in terms of this,
so there may not be any point in trying to pursue a lower price with
the foot soldier. Cancellation, if you can, and finding an
alternative would be better commercially. However, I do know that
diplomacy is often required with the elderly who on the one hand value
independence while on the other are vulnerable.



..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

"Andy" wrote in message

£1900 inc. got me a new boiler (Worcester) re-siting to a
cupboard at the other end of the bungalow - The previous
boiler had been on the kitchen floor. Also included were
electronic valves to modernise the pipework, a modern
flue instead of the chimneystack, and plumbing to account
for the move.

Oh, it included fitting thermostatic valves to the rads too...

Andy

"Andy" wrote in message
...
"Andy" wrote in message

£1900 inc. got me a new boiler (Worcester) re-siting to a
cupboard at the other end of the bungalow - The previous
boiler had been on the kitchen floor. Also included were
electronic valves to modernise the pipework, a modern
flue instead of the chimneystack, and plumbing to account
for the move.

Oh, it included fitting thermostatic valves to the rads too...

Andy

Ah yes, those expensive (at £5 each) TRVs.

On Sun, 16 Nov 2003 19:08:18 +0000, Andy Hall wrote:

On Sun, 16 Nov 2003 18:15:24 +0000, Hugo Nebula
wrote:

My mother's central heating boiler is a bit on the old and
temperamental side (a bit like her), so I was happy that she went to
get a quote for a replacement. I was shocked, however, at the price
quoted by British Gas of £2,700 for a Potterton Promax. The work
quoted for is minimal, just replacing the boiler in it's existing
location, no alterations to the controls or the cylinder.

Unfortunately, my mother is from the old school of, "Well, if that's
the price the Gas Board have said, then that's what I have to pay",
and she's given a deposit. I intend to have words with the salesman,
but what would be regarded as a fair price for this work?

Oh dear. This is the second of these situations in a week just among
a relatively small community of this newsgroup. One wonders how
many thousands of other identical cases of people being ripped off by
BG are happening per week - must be thousands.

It is particularly repugnant that they are taking advantage of an
elderly person who has basically trusted the "Gas Board" probably for
all their life. It's one thing to use a brand to justify a higher
price, but this is ridiculous.

You don't say which model of Promax it is, but at Discounted Heating,
which in itself is going to be above BG's buy prices, these range from
£687 inc. for the basic 15kW model to £879 inc. for the larger 32kW
system model.

There is presumably the provisioning of a condensate drain, but even
then this is not a big deal. Are there really no additional controls
required to comply with part L1 etc.?

Hopefully Mr. Sirett or Mr. Stumbles will be along shortly to give an
indicative price.

Do you not know any CORGI fitters by virtue of your BCO activity?
Surely they would be a good option in comparison to Dick Turpin, PLC.

Certainly I'd take this up with the salesman, although I would also
check how much price discretion that they and their management have.
In most large organisations, each level has limits in terms of this,
so there may not be any point in trying to pursue a lower price with
the foot soldier. Cancellation, if you can, and finding an
alternative would be better commercially. However, I do know that
diplomacy is often required with the elderly who on the one hand value
independence while on the other are vulnerable.


Most of the replies have said it all.
The only thing I would argue is the 5 hours work.
Let us assume that they make no attempt to bring the control systems up to
part L compliance, which then makes it difficult to complete the Benchmark
Log Book.
Even so the minimum to comply with the manuafacturer's instructions is
likely to require flushing twice.
Also the flueing arrangements are likely to be diferent and some making
good ought to be done?

I suspect that £1500 ought to see the job through fine and a bit more if
there is something awkward.


--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at www.diyfaq.org.uk
Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html

On Sun, 16 Nov 2003 19:08:18 +0000, a particular chimpanzee named Andy
Hall randomly hit the keyboard and produced:

You don't say which model of Promax it is, but at Discounted Heating,
which in itself is going to be above BG's buy prices, these range from
£687 inc. for the basic 15kW model to £879 inc. for the larger 32kW
system model.

Even going on the more expensive one (for a vented system) of £749,
that leaves £2000 for labour. My mum's said that the salesman has
said there will be two fitters required for a total of 16 hours.
Assuming their entire day is taken up with the work (doubtful), this
is a rate of over £125 per hour.

There is presumably the provisioning of a condensate drain, but even
then this is not a big deal. Are there really no additional controls
required to comply with part L1 etc.?

The existing system has a programmer, cylinder 'stat and TRVs, so it
complies with the minimum needed.

Do you not know any CORGI fitters by virtue of your BCO activity?
Surely they would be a good option in comparison to Dick Turpin, PLC.

Unfortunately, I live 200 miles away.

Certainly I'd take this up with the salesman, although I would also
check how much price discretion that they and their management have.

I've just been told the quote by my mother tonight, so I intend to
press the salesman (sorry, Technical Sales Advisor) tomorrow to lower
the price substantially, or cancel the whole deal.
--
Hugo Nebula
"You know, I'd rather see this on TV,
Tones it down" - Laurie Anderson

My own experience recently for a CH system was BG =A310500 +VAT, local
company =A35800 including VAT. Guess who got the job and indeed did a
good job.

Christ almighty - how big was the premises ?

--=20
Please add "[newsgroup]" in the subject of any personal replies via email
* old email address "btiruseless" abandoned due to worm-generated spam *
--- My new email address has "ngspamtrap" & @btinternet.com in it ;-) ---

On Sun, 16 Nov 2003 22:41:34 +0000, Hugo Nebula
wrote:

On Sun, 16 Nov 2003 19:08:18 +0000, a particular chimpanzee named Andy
Hall randomly hit the keyboard and produced:

You don't say which model of Promax it is, but at Discounted Heating,
which in itself is going to be above BG's buy prices, these range from
£687 inc. for the basic 15kW model to £879 inc. for the larger 32kW
system model.

Even going on the more expensive one (for a vented system) of £749,
that leaves £2000 for labour. My mum's said that the salesman has
said there will be two fitters required for a total of 16 hours.
Assuming their entire day is taken up with the work (doubtful), this
is a rate of over £125 per hour.

Of which the lion's share is margin for BG.



There is presumably the provisioning of a condensate drain, but even
then this is not a big deal. Are there really no additional controls
required to comply with part L1 etc.?

The existing system has a programmer, cylinder 'stat and TRVs, so it
complies with the minimum needed.

Do you not know any CORGI fitters by virtue of your BCO activity?
Surely they would be a good option in comparison to Dick Turpin, PLC.

Unfortunately, I live 200 miles away.

Ah. Maybe you could call the Building Control people at her local
authority, explain who you are and see if they have any ideas? Just
an idea.....



Certainly I'd take this up with the salesman, although I would also
check how much price discretion that they and their management have.

I've just been told the quote by my mother tonight, so I intend to
press the salesman (sorry, Technical Sales Advisor) tomorrow to lower
the price substantially, or cancel the whole deal.

From scenarios of boiler installations that have been posted in the
last few months it seems that the target price ought to be at around
£1500 - 1800. It would seem to me that if you can get the price to
under £2k, that would not be too unreasonable, bearing in mind your
mum's perceived sense of peace of mind.




..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

From scenarios of boiler installations that have been posted in the
last few months it seems that the target price ought to be at around
£1500 - 1800.

I got a boiler fitted (Ideal Icos) in a slightly different location for
£1100, with an additional £100 cashback, making it £1000. I've never seen
anyone work so fast. He replaced the boiler, pump and hot water cylinder. He
turned up at 8.00 and was gone just after lunch. I think he intended to fit
another boiler in the afternoon.

Christian.

Hugo Nebula wrote:
On Sun, 16 Nov 2003 19:08:18 +0000, a particular chimpanzee named Andy
Hall randomly hit the keyboard and produced:

You don't say which model of Promax it is, but at Discounted Heating,
which in itself is going to be above BG's buy prices, these range
from £687 inc. for the basic 15kW model to £879 inc. for the larger
32kW system model.

Even going on the more expensive one (for a vented system) of £749,
that leaves £2000 for labour. My mum's said that the salesman has
said there will be two fitters required for a total of 16 hours.
Assuming their entire day is taken up with the work (doubtful), this
is a rate of over £125 per hour.

There is presumably the provisioning of a condensate drain, but even
then this is not a big deal. Are there really no additional controls
required to comply with part L1 etc.?

The existing system has a programmer, cylinder 'stat and TRVs, so it
complies with the minimum needed.

Do you not know any CORGI fitters by virtue of your BCO activity?
Surely they would be a good option in comparison to Dick Turpin, PLC.

Unfortunately, I live 200 miles away.

Certainly I'd take this up with the salesman, although I would also
check how much price discretion that they and their management have.

I've just been told the quote by my mother tonight, so I intend to
press the salesman (sorry, Technical Sales Advisor) tomorrow to lower
the price substantially, or cancel the whole deal.

If your mother is elderly, whatever that means, you could probably get the
deal cancelled by playing on this.
Probably is a cooling off period anyway, if she was sold it in her own home.

On Mon, 17 Nov 2003 09:55:05 +0000, Christian McArdle wrote:

From scenarios of boiler installations that have been posted in the
last few months it seems that the target price ought to be at around
£1500 - 1800.

I got a boiler fitted (Ideal Icos) in a slightly different location for
£1100, with an additional £100 cashback, making it £1000. I've never seen
anyone work so fast. He replaced the boiler, pump and hot water cylinder. He
turned up at 8.00 and was gone just after lunch. I think he intended to fit
another boiler in the afternoon.

This is impressive even if he failed to flush the existing system & fill
out the benchmark log book (to vaildate the guarantee).


--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at www.diyfaq.org.uk
Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html

This is impressive even if he failed to flush the existing system &
fill out the benchmark log book (to vaildate the guarantee).

The benchmark was filled in. The empties were left behind. (X100 and X300, I
think, but not entirely sure).

The pipework was faultless and very neat.

To watch him work was breathtaking. I've never seen someone who can cut,
flux and solder a pipe in the few seconds that he took. He claimed he
personally had done the most installs on the Big Green Boiler scheme in the
country. I believed him.

Christian.

On Mon, 17 Nov 2003 11:53:45 -0000, "BillR"
wrote:

Hugo Nebula wrote:
On Sun, 16 Nov 2003 19:08:18 +0000, a particular chimpanzee named Andy
Hall randomly hit the keyboard and produced:

You don't say which model of Promax it is, but at Discounted Heating,
which in itself is going to be above BG's buy prices, these range
from £687 inc. for the basic 15kW model to £879 inc. for the larger
32kW system model.

Even going on the more expensive one (for a vented system) of £749,
that leaves £2000 for labour. My mum's said that the salesman has
said there will be two fitters required for a total of 16 hours.
Assuming their entire day is taken up with the work (doubtful), this
is a rate of over £125 per hour.

There is presumably the provisioning of a condensate drain, but even
then this is not a big deal. Are there really no additional controls
required to comply with part L1 etc.?

The existing system has a programmer, cylinder 'stat and TRVs, so it
complies with the minimum needed.

Do you not know any CORGI fitters by virtue of your BCO activity?
Surely they would be a good option in comparison to Dick Turpin, PLC.

Unfortunately, I live 200 miles away.

Certainly I'd take this up with the salesman, although I would also
check how much price discretion that they and their management have.

I've just been told the quote by my mother tonight, so I intend to
press the salesman (sorry, Technical Sales Advisor) tomorrow to lower
the price substantially, or cancel the whole deal.

If your mother is elderly, whatever that means, you could probably get the
deal cancelled by playing on this.
Probably is a cooling off period anyway, if she was sold it in her own home.

Also, how old is your Mum (if you are 20 and your mum is 40 this does
not apply), there are grants available through help the aged for old
folks to cover this sort of situation (i.e. duff heating) up to £2500.

I am looking into it for my own mum.

Paul D

"Hugo Nebula" wrote in message
...
My mother's central heating boiler is a bit on the old and
temperamental side (a bit like her), so I was happy that she went to
get a quote for a replacement. I was shocked, however, at the price
quoted by British Gas of £2,700 for a Potterton Promax. The work
quoted for is minimal, just replacing the boiler in it's existing
location, no alterations to the controls or the cylinder.

Unfortunately, my mother is from the old school of, "Well, if that's
the price the Gas Board have said, then that's what I have to pay",
and she's given a deposit. I intend to have words with the salesman,
but what would be regarded as a fair price for this work?


Did you manage to get hold of Slippery Sam, and if so what was the outcome?

cheers
Richard
--
Richard Sampson

email me at
richard at olifant d-ot co do-t uk

On Tue, 18 Nov 2003 15:37:26 -0000, a particular chimpanzee named
"RichardS" noaccess@invalid randomly hit the keyboard and produced:

Did you manage to get hold of Slippery Sam, and if so what was the outcome?

"People say to me, 'look, Dave, all I want is a price to change my
boiler'. They don't want to know the ins and outs of how much each
little thing costs".

He faxed me a 'breakdown' of the costs, which seemed to amount to
£1645 to fit the boiler, then £600-odd for 'extras' such as installing
a condensate drain, wiring it in, flushing the system, etc. Apart
from some earth bonding and a couple of valves, I would have regarded
everything on his list as essential to replacing a boiler.

I tried to get him to negotiate on lowering the price, but he wasn't
willing to do so, so my mother's cancelled it.
--
Hugo Nebula
"You know, I'd rather see this on TV,
Tones it down" - Laurie Anderson

On Wed, 19 Nov 2003 20:02:50 +0000, Hugo Nebula
wrote:

On Tue, 18 Nov 2003 15:37:26 -0000, a particular chimpanzee named
"RichardS" noaccess@invalid randomly hit the keyboard and produced:

Did you manage to get hold of Slippery Sam, and if so what was the outcome?

"People say to me, 'look, Dave, all I want is a price to change my
boiler'. They don't want to know the ins and outs of how much each
little thing costs".

He faxed me a 'breakdown' of the costs, which seemed to amount to
£1645 to fit the boiler, then £600-odd for 'extras' such as installing
a condensate drain, wiring it in, flushing the system, etc. Apart
from some earth bonding and a couple of valves, I would have regarded
everything on his list as essential to replacing a boiler.

I tried to get him to negotiate on lowering the price, but he wasn't
willing to do so, so my mother's cancelled it.



That's the awful thing. He doesn't need to lower his price - there
will always be another customer tomorrow.

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

"Hugo Nebula" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 18 Nov 2003 15:37:26 -0000, a particular chimpanzee named
"RichardS" noaccess@invalid randomly hit the keyboard and produced:

Did you manage to get hold of Slippery Sam, and if so what was the
outcome?

"People say to me, 'look, Dave, all I want is a price to change my
boiler'. They don't want to know the ins and outs of how much each
little thing costs".

He faxed me a 'breakdown' of the costs, which seemed to amount to
£1645 to fit the boiler, then £600-odd for 'extras' such as installing
a condensate drain, wiring it in, flushing the system, etc. Apart
from some earth bonding and a couple of valves, I would have regarded
everything on his list as essential to replacing a boiler.

I tried to get him to negotiate on lowering the price, but he wasn't
willing to do so, so my mother's cancelled it.

Excellent. Hopefully someone will now be questioning why the installation
was cancelled, but somehow I doubt it.

Did you try just asking for the installation, and not bothering with the
"extras" then? :-)

Sad really, but I doubt that BG will ever get out of it's mindset about
being "The Gas Board" and the lack of free market accountablility that goes
with it.

--
Richard Sampson

email me at
richard at olifant d-ot co do-t uk