Nightjar wrote:
On 15/07/2013 13:47, Jethro_uk wrote:
On Mon, 15 Jul 2013 01:35:55 +0100, Nightjar wrote:

On 14/07/2013 13:13, MrWeld wrote:
Over the next few months I will need to dig lots of holes, each
about 90cm deep by 50cm wide by 3 metres long. The soil is quite
stony, and gets extremely sticky in the wet....

That is deep enough to trap you if it collapses when you are
standing in it.

Huh ? 90 *cm* deep ?

Did you mistake length for depth

A collapse in a trench that deep is unlikely to be fatal, but it
certainly could trap a person by the legs. If there is nobody around
to dig them out, that could be a serious problem.

Please tell me you are making this up.

--
Adam

On Mon, 15 Jul 2013 21:57:06 +0100, ARW wrote:

A collapse in a trench that deep is unlikely to be fatal, but it
certainly could trap a person by the legs. If there is nobody
around
to dig them out, that could be a serious problem.

Please tell me you are making this up.

A 90 cm deep trench is bollock height, or waist if you are a short
arse. A collapse is likely to bury your legs to the knees or above
and buried that deeply will be trapped. Having said that you should
be able to scrabble away some of the muck and get some movement to
lift one foot a bit and hopefully get some muck under it and move it
slowly upwards, same with the other foot. Don't forget this 50 cm
wide trench doesn't give you much room either, a carver dining chair
is about 50 cm wide.

--
Cheers
Dave.

On 15/07/2013 23:18, Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Mon, 15 Jul 2013 21:57:06 +0100, ARW wrote:

A collapse in a trench that deep is unlikely to be fatal, but it
certainly could trap a person by the legs. If there is nobody
around
to dig them out, that could be a serious problem.

Please tell me you are making this up.

A 90 cm deep trench is bollock height, or waist if you are a short
arse. A collapse is likely to bury your legs to the knees or above
and buried that deeply will be trapped. Having said that you should
be able to scrabble away some of the muck and get some movement to
lift one foot a bit and hopefully get some muck under it and move it
slowly upwards, same with the other foot. Don't forget this 50 cm
wide trench doesn't give you much room either, a carver dining chair
is about 50 cm wide.

When I worked for an electricity board, we had a workman in a similar
trench trapped by one wall collapsing and pushing him against the other.
It took two hours to dig him out.

Colin Bignell

Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Mon, 15 Jul 2013 21:57:06 +0100, ARW wrote:

A collapse in a trench that deep is unlikely to be fatal, but it
certainly could trap a person by the legs. If there is nobody around
to dig them out, that could be a serious problem.

Please tell me you are making this up.

A 90 cm deep trench is bollock height, or waist if you are a short
arse. A collapse is likely to bury your legs to the knees or above
and buried that deeply will be trapped. Having said that you should
be able to scrabble away some of the muck and get some movement to
lift one foot a bit and hopefully get some muck under it and move it
slowly upwards, same with the other foot. Don't forget this 50 cm
wide trench doesn't give you much room either, a carver dining chair
is about 50 cm wide.

Trust me. I have no idea of what a carver dining chair is.

--
Adam

Nightjar wrote:
On 15/07/2013 23:18, Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Mon, 15 Jul 2013 21:57:06 +0100, ARW wrote:

A collapse in a trench that deep is unlikely to be fatal, but it
certainly could trap a person by the legs. If there is nobody
around
to dig them out, that could be a serious problem.

Please tell me you are making this up.

A 90 cm deep trench is bollock height, or waist if you are a short
arse. A collapse is likely to bury your legs to the knees or above
and buried that deeply will be trapped. Having said that you should
be able to scrabble away some of the muck and get some movement to
lift one foot a bit and hopefully get some muck under it and move it
slowly upwards, same with the other foot. Don't forget this 50 cm
wide trench doesn't give you much room either, a carver dining chair
is about 50 cm wide.

When I worked for an electricity board, we had a workman in a similar
trench trapped by one wall collapsing and pushing him against the
other. It took two hours to dig him out.

********:-)

It took you 10 minutes to dig him out.

However it took you 1 hour and 50 minutes to get permission to dig him out
when you called the REC's call centre.


--
Adam

On 16/07/2013 00:08, ARW wrote:
Nightjar wrote:
On 15/07/2013 23:18, Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Mon, 15 Jul 2013 21:57:06 +0100, ARW wrote:

A collapse in a trench that deep is unlikely to be fatal, but it
certainly could trap a person by the legs. If there is nobody
around
to dig them out, that could be a serious problem.

Please tell me you are making this up.

A 90 cm deep trench is bollock height, or waist if you are a short
arse. A collapse is likely to bury your legs to the knees or above
and buried that deeply will be trapped. Having said that you should
be able to scrabble away some of the muck and get some movement to
lift one foot a bit and hopefully get some muck under it and move it
slowly upwards, same with the other foot. Don't forget this 50 cm
wide trench doesn't give you much room either, a carver dining chair
is about 50 cm wide.

When I worked for an electricity board, we had a workman in a similar
trench trapped by one wall collapsing and pushing him against the
other. It took two hours to dig him out.

********:-)

It took you 10 minutes to dig him out.

However it took you 1 hour and 50 minutes to get permission to dig him out
when you called the REC's call centre.

I go back to the days when the bloke on the spot made the decisions. In
the workman's case, the decision to jump into an unsupported trench was
probably not his best.

It most likely did only take ten minutes to dig him out. The rest of the
time was making it safe for somebody else to get in there to do it.

Colin Bignell

On 15/07/2013 23:53, ARW wrote:
Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Mon, 15 Jul 2013 21:57:06 +0100, ARW wrote:

A collapse in a trench that deep is unlikely to be fatal, but it
certainly could trap a person by the legs. If there is nobody around
to dig them out, that could be a serious problem.

Please tell me you are making this up.

A 90 cm deep trench is bollock height, or waist if you are a short
arse. A collapse is likely to bury your legs to the knees or above
and buried that deeply will be trapped. Having said that you should
be able to scrabble away some of the muck and get some movement to
lift one foot a bit and hopefully get some muck under it and move it
slowly upwards, same with the other foot. Don't forget this 50 cm
wide trench doesn't give you much room either, a carver dining chair
is about 50 cm wide.

Trust me. I have no idea of what a carver dining chair is.

You need to watch em, they are armed ;-)


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
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On Tue, 16 Jul 2013 03:10:24 +0100, John Rumm wrote:

Don't forget this 50 cm wide trench doesn't give you much room
either,
a carver dining chair is about 50 cm wide.

Trust me. I have no idea of what a carver dining chair is.

You need to watch em, they are armed ;-)

He he, I hope that doesn't go whoosh as well. B-)

--
Cheers
Dave.

On Tue, 16 Jul 2013 00:08:15 +0100, ARW wrote:

When I worked for an electricity board, we had a workman in a
similar
trench trapped by one wall collapsing and pushing him against the
other. It took two hours to dig him out.

********:-)

It took you 10 minutes to dig him out.

Have you ever been in somthing "grippy" or hard to shift to above
your knees?

The other problem with a collapse is that when you remove some of the
material more collapses in or the would be rescuers can't get close
enough without risking getting trapped themselves in the unstable
ground. Can't decide if a large or small angle of repose makes things
easier or harder.

--
Cheers
Dave.

Onetap wrote:

On Sunday, July 14, 2013 1:49:45 PM UTC+1, Steve Firth wrote:
MrWeld MrWeld wrote:



Are there any tips on how to make digging these holes easier?



Get a proper digging shovel with a long handle. The types of spades in
common use in the UK are useless for digging. I speak here as someone
who spent the last two weeks digging a 3m cubed hole and 48 metres of
trench in a mixture of extremely stony ground and thick clay.

I mean shovels like this:

http://www.toolbox.co.uk/bulldog-bul...try-4091-90750
http://www.toolbox.co.uk/spear-jacks...el-4091-132602


Stunning advice.

Those are shovels.

Gosh, you don't say, shovels eh? That would be why I referred to them at
least four times as "shovels" would it? And you didn't notice that I had
done so, are you going for some sort of medal for "missing the bleeding
obvious"?

You don't dig with a shovel.

Bull****. As I said in my post, the British don't have a bloody clue how
to dig large holes or trenches. They are fixated on using the wrong
tools for the job and use garden spades which are designed for turning
over a vegetable patch or flower bed which has been repeatedly dug over
for years.

Shovels are for shovelling.

"Stunning advice"

That'd only work if the ground had been broken up by something.

No, and you're clearly an idiot who has never used a *digging* shovel
such as the ones referred to above. The pointed blade makes them easier
to kick into stony ground and clay. The long handle gives greater
leverage to break out clods and also allows a more upright working
position that puts much less strain on the lower back. Across the USA
and Europe you won't find many, or I suspect any, people digging with a
British spade because the spade is not fit for purpose.

--
Burn Hollywood burn, burn down to the ground

In message , Steve Firth
writes
Onetap wrote:

On Sunday, July 14, 2013 1:49:45 PM UTC+1, Steve Firth wrote:
MrWeld MrWeld wrote:



Are there any tips on how to make digging these holes easier?



Get a proper digging shovel with a long handle. The types of spades in
common use in the UK are useless for digging. I speak here as someone
who spent the last two weeks digging a 3m cubed hole and 48 metres of
trench in a mixture of extremely stony ground and thick clay.

I mean shovels like this:

http://www.toolbox.co.uk/bulldog-bul...try-4091-90750
http://www.toolbox.co.uk/spear-jacks...el-4091-132602


Stunning advice.

Those are shovels.

Gosh, you don't say, shovels eh? That would be why I referred to them at
least four times as "shovels" would it? And you didn't notice that I had
done so, are you going for some sort of medal for "missing the bleeding
obvious"?

You don't dig with a shovel.

Bull****. As I said in my post, the British don't have a bloody clue how
to dig large holes or trenches. They are fixated on using the wrong
tools for the job and use garden spades which are designed for turning
over a vegetable patch or flower bed which has been repeatedly dug over
for years.

Tentative criticism... I find the straight handled Irish shovel can
twist in your hands and dump half the load back in the trench. I have
similar problems with the four pronged straight handled dung fork found
in stables. Dry skin perhaps.
--
Tim Lamb

On Sunday, July 21, 2013 6:13:39 PM UTC+1, Steve Firth wrote:

Shovels are for shovelling.



"Stunning advice"



That'd only work if the ground had been broken up by something.



No, and you're clearly an idiot who has never used a *digging* shovel

such as the ones referred to above. The pointed blade makes them easier

to kick into stony ground and clay. The long handle gives greater

leverage to break out clods and also allows a more upright working

position that puts much less strain on the lower back. Across the USA

and Europe you won't find many, or I suspect any, people digging with a

British spade because the spade is not fit for purpose.


Deeply strange, this. What's going on here?

I've dug a fair few holes in my lifetime, but I don't claim to be a hole-digging expert. So, when Mr OP asks for advice about digging holes, I keep quiet.

Until Firth posts his pearls of wisdom.

You can look up the recommended digging technique on the internet.

It goes something like this.
Foot on the shoulder of the spade, press in to a spade's depth, lever out a spit of soil, chuck spit into barrow/trench/wherever.

Repeat. Work side to side and progress backwards.

If you've ever done that, the differences between a digging spade and a shovel are obvious.

A shovel (for grain, gravel. soil, etc.) has turned up sides and a wider blade.
The blade is thinner, usually a pressing rather than a forging. It will not stand up to use as a spade, the blade is too thin to serve as a lever. The handle is usually too thin, for the same reason.

A spade has a sharper, narrower, flatter blade and a cutting edge, usually square, sometimes slightly pointed.

You'd try to break up the soil by the minimum amount. Sometimes you have to beak it up with a pick or mattock, in stoney or dry soil that can't be cut, and then shovel out the spoil.

Is that wrong? Anyone who has ever dug a hole would know that stuff.

So then Firth arrives and recommends the use of wholly unsuitable shovels.

The description of the West Country Shovel he recommends says;
"The blades are hardened and tempered, so they can be used for light digging as well as for moving loose materials such as shingle, sand and gravel."

It's a shovel, for moving loose material. It's not a spade, for digging, though you might dig soft soil with it.

He doesn't know how to dig!
Has he ever dug a hole?
Is he real, or a mere internet expert?
If he is the DIY dynamo he claims, how does he get the time to rack up 100, 150 posts on this forum alone? How about other forums? Is it another Rod Speed?

Anyone know what's going on here?

Firth, you can sod right off; you're clueless. I'm asking about you, I'm not addressing you.
Go and dig a hole and stand in it.

On 21/07/13 20:08, Onetap wrote:
Firth, you can sod right off; you're clueless. I'm asking about you,
I'm not addressing you. Go and dig a hole and stand in it.
An opinion on everything and experience of nothing. KIllfile?


--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc-ra-cy) €“ a system of government where the least capable to lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a diminishing number of producers.

Onetap wrote:

Firth, you can sod right off; you're clueless. I'm asking about you, I'm
not addressing you.

You're replying to one of my posts, you cowardly lying ****.

Presumably in the queue for brains you stood there saying "No, I don't
want that grey stuff, just fill it up with ****."

--
Burn Hollywood burn, burn down to the ground

In message , The Natural Philosopher
writes
On 21/07/13 20:08, Onetap wrote:
Firth, you can sod right off; you're clueless. I'm asking about you,
I'm not addressing you. Go and dig a hole and stand in it.
An opinion on everything and experience of nothing. KIllfile?

No. They both have useful practical knowledge.

Perhaps it is the heat?



--
Tim Lamb

On Sunday, July 21, 2013 9:08:53 PM UTC+1, Steve Firth wrote:
Onetap wrote:



Firth, you can sod right off; you're clueless. I'm asking about you, I'm

not addressing you.



You're replying to one of my posts, you cowardly lying ****.

Solely in order to quote your misleading "expert" advice and ask other posters what they think of it.
And of you.


Presumably in the queue for brains you stood there saying "No, I don't

want that grey stuff, just fill it up with ****."

I have dug holes, a great many holes.
I have used a spade. You have not.

Onetap wrote:
On Sunday, July 21, 2013 9:08:53 PM UTC+1, Steve Firth wrote:
Onetap wrote:



Firth, you can sod right off; you're clueless. I'm asking about you, I'm

not addressing you.



You're replying to one of my posts, you cowardly lying ****.

Solely in order to quote your misleading "expert" advice and ask other
posters what they think of it.
And of you.

You've been stalking me for several weeks now in order to snipe at my
posts. You're just another liar on Usenet.

Presumably in the queue for brains you stood there saying "No, I don't
want that grey stuff, just fill it up with ****."

I have dug holes, a great many holes.
I have used a spade. You have not.

I have used spades, pick axes, hoes, earth chisels, spikes, shovels and
laughable little entrenching tools to dig holes. I have worked for Wimpey,
Balfour Beatty and Taylor Woodrow digging holes. I can still shift up to
five tonnes of soil a day if I need to.

I note that you ran away from addressing the point that the UZk is the only
place fixated on the use of a garden spade and that the Irish shovels I
pointed to are *digging* shovels which seems to confuse you because you've
clearly never seen one or used one.

All you have is a big, flapping gob and the cowardice to hide behind an
alias.

--
€¢DarWin|
_/ _/

On Sunday, July 21, 2013 10:54:43 PM UTC+1, Steve Firth wrote:
Onetap wrote:

You've been stalking me for several weeks now in order to snipe at my

posts. You're just another liar on Usenet.

Don't delude yourself. I have no interest in you whatever.
I merely challenged the bull**** you have posted.
Try to concentrate on that.
You have come back aggressive/defensive, but avoiding the points made.

I have used spades, pick axes, hoes, earth chisels, spikes, shovels and

laughable little entrenching tools to dig holes. I have worked for Wimpey,

Balfour Beatty and Taylor Woodrow digging holes. I can still shift up to

five tonnes of soil a day if I need to.

Sure. But you don't know the difference between a shovel and a spade.


I note that you ran away from addressing the point that the UZk is the only

place fixated on the use of a garden spade and that the Irish shovels I

pointed to are *digging* shovels which seems to confuse you because you've

clearly never seen one or used one.

I've never seen an "Irish shovel" or long-handles shovel used on any groundworks in the UK or Ireland.
If they were that good, you'd expect every digger to have one. They don't use them.
They have spades, D-handled mostly.

The shovels you pointed to are shovels, not spades. For shovelling.
The West Country shovel is fit for "light digging". You avoided addressing that point.
Look at the Irish shovel you pointed at; pressed steel blade, is it not?
Thin metal. Not fit for levering soil out of the ground.
Fit for press forming and being sold to idiots.
An aluminium rivet to secure the shaft? How thick must you be? How long will that last?

All you have is a big, flapping gob and the cowardice to hide behind an

alias.

I am astounded that anyone would be stupid enough to use their real name on the internet.
You're naive enough to think there's nothing wrong in doing so. Crack on.
You seem to have enjoyed a very priviledged and sheltered life.

On Monday, July 22, 2013 12:07:13 AM UTC+1, Tim Streater wrote:
In article ,

Onetap wrote:



I've never seen an "Irish shovel" or long-handles shovel used on any

groundworks in the UK or Ireland.

If they were that good, you'd expect every digger to have one. They don't use

them.



A harry-style argument.

What's your opinion, Tim?
Why would virtually every ground worker, road worker, farmer and digger in the UK use inferior tools (according to Steve)?
It's just not plausible.

My theory is simple and concise.
They don't use the long-handles "Irish shovels", as recommended by Steve, because they're crap for digging.

OK for shovelling grain, sand, gravel, sand, grit, salt, coal, etc..
But no good for digging.
For digging, you'd use a spade.

Just dipped back into this thread, having been away for a bit , and
amazed to see it still going! Boys, Boys, Boys! All this bad
language and bad temper! Is this like us, in this group?!?! [Oh yeah
- it is.]

Most entertaining, anyway.

Personally, I use a spade (UK pattern) for digging a hole, unless a spit
(that's what we call it, though I see elsewhere it's called a trench
shovel) is going to do a better job because of (a) texture of soil. or
(b) shape of hole. Mine is all-steel (i.e. handle too), is heavy, and is
a fantastic hole digger. I'm currently using it in the garden instead
of my spade because the soil is dried to concrete.

I once went on a working holiday in Austria, where they handed us what
seem to be the so-called "Irish shovel" (I'm pretty sure that the
Continentals didn't go looking to Ireland for a shovel design ... I'm
pretty sure they thought it up themselves). These worked well, and have
fantastic leverage for hoicking, but there was many a time we'd have
swopped 'em for UK spades.

I also have shovels - a small one for shovelling heavy stuff, and a big
wide one for shovelling snow.

I also have a round-ended shovel-cum-spade (bit like an "Irish" one, but
with a t-handle, at the conventional UK length) which comes in *very*
useful when I want to shovel stuff like a pile of gravel of sand --
better than either a spade or a shovel. I think this design may have
originated in the pits around here.


What a great thread: calling a spade a shovel, and vice versa, and round
and round we go: a real DIY thread :-D

John

On 22/07/2013 01:19, Onetap wrote:
On Monday, July 22, 2013 12:07:13 AM UTC+1, Tim Streater wrote:
In article ,

Onetap wrote:



I've never seen an "Irish shovel" or long-handles shovel used on any

groundworks in the UK or Ireland.

If they were that good, you'd expect every digger to have one. They don't use

them.



A harry-style argument.

What's your opinion, Tim?
Why would virtually every ground worker, road worker, farmer and digger in the UK use inferior tools (according to Steve)?
It's just not plausible.

Yes because council road crews up and down the UK are renowned for their
hyper efficiency ;-)

My theory is simple and concise.
They don't use the long-handles "Irish shovels", as recommended by Steve, because they're crap for digging.

I would disagree, since I have heard many people extol the virtues of
them for digging, and in many countries it would be the default pattern
of tool for the job.



--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
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\================================================= ================/

On Monday, July 22, 2013 9:59:01 AM UTC+1, John Rumm wrote:

Yes because council road crews up and down the UK are renowned for their

hyper efficiency ;-)

You can't lean on a long-handled shovel. ;-)

On Monday, July 15, 2013 11:13:29 AM UTC+1, RobertL wrote:
On Sunday, July 14, 2013 1:13:50 PM UTC+1, MrWeld wrote:

Over the next few months I will need to dig lots of holes, each about



90cm deep by 50cm wide by 3 metres long. The soil is quite stony, and



Are there any tips on how to make digging these holes easier? Any other

tools I could buy?



When my father in-law (in his 70s) dug the 1000mm deep trench foundations for our extension he needed a pick axe to dig the bottom 6" of the trench because the ground was packed so hard.

Hi probably could have stopped there, if he had a sensible BCO !
Simon.

In article , John Rumm
wrote:
On 22/07/2013 01:19, Onetap wrote:
On Monday, July 22, 2013 12:07:13 AM UTC+1, Tim Streater wrote:
In article ,

Onetap wrote:



I've never seen an "Irish shovel" or long-handles shovel used on any

groundworks in the UK or Ireland.

If they were that good, you'd expect every digger to have one. They
don't use

them.



A harry-style argument.

What's your opinion, Tim? Why would virtually every ground worker, road
worker, farmer and digger in the UK use inferior tools (according to
Steve)? It's just not plausible.

Yes because council road crews up and down the UK are renowned for their
hyper efficiency ;-)

My theory is simple and concise. They don't use the long-handles "Irish
shovels", as recommended by Steve, because they're crap for digging.

I would disagree, since I have heard many people extol the virtues of
them for digging, and in many countries it would be the default pattern
of tool for the job.

I suspect it depends on the soil that is being dug.

--
From KT24

Using a RISC OS computer running v5.18

On Monday, July 22, 2013 12:28:10 PM UTC+1, charles wrote:
In article , John Rumm

wrote:

On 22/07/2013 01:19, Onetap wrote:

On Monday, July 22, 2013 12:07:13 AM UTC+1, Tim Streater wrote:

In article ,



Onetap wrote:







I've never seen an "Irish shovel" or long-handles shovel used on any



groundworks in the UK or Ireland.



If they were that good, you'd expect every digger to have one. They

don't use



them.







A harry-style argument.



What's your opinion, Tim? Why would virtually every ground worker, road

worker, farmer and digger in the UK use inferior tools (according to

Steve)? It's just not plausible.



Yes because council road crews up and down the UK are renowned for their

hyper efficiency ;-)



My theory is simple and concise. They don't use the long-handles "Irish

shovels", as recommended by Steve, because they're crap for digging..



I would disagree, since I have heard many people extol the virtues of

them for digging, and in many countries it would be the default pattern

of tool for the job.



I suspect it depends on the soil that is being dug.



--

From KT24



Using a RISC OS computer running v5.18

I've been reading this with great amusement.

I'm Irish.

I have never heard of an Irish shovel. Here we just call them shovels. They are totally unsuited for digging. The blade is too thin and too large. The shoulder is the same thin thickness as the blade and will cut through the sole of your boots in short order. If you attempt to dig with the pointed end one it swivels in your hand. The pointed end one is used for shovelling loose materials like sand or loose earth. The square ended ones are more useful for shifting material when used with a brush.

There are also aluminium and plastic bladed versions of these square edged shovel. Generally used for shovelling grain.

Now when it comes to spades there are/were as many versions of an Irish spade as of an Irishman. They were all originally made locally and made to suit local conditions. The essential difference between it and an English spade are the length of the handle, lack of 'D' handle and size and shape of the blade.

I have versions of all of these items except the grain shovel.

The Irish spade, with its longer slimmer blade and long handle is the 'go-to ' one for me for general digging, whether it be holes or for general gardening.

The 'English' spade with its shorter 'D' handle and broader blade I regard as a border spade. The broader blade makes it too much hard work for general digging and the short handle lacks the leverage of the longer Irish spade..

This is the only spademill now in Ireland

http://www.nationaltrust.org.uk/pattersons-spade-mill/

Its worth a visit if in or around Belfast.

Though now run by the National Trust I knew it in its working day. They made their own abrasive belts and we used to supply them with the abrasive grain.

Ye can continue to argue this amongst yourselves but the above is the gospel according to St. Pat

On 22/07/2013 10:05, Onetap wrote:
On Monday, July 22, 2013 9:59:01 AM UTC+1, John Rumm wrote:

Yes because council road crews up and down the UK are renowned for their

hyper efficiency ;-)

You can't lean on a long-handled shovel. ;-)

This could explain much ;-)


--
Cheers,

John.

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\================================================= ================/

On 22/07/2013 13:41, fred wrote:

I've been reading this with great amusement.

I'm Irish.

I have never heard of an Irish shovel. Here we just call them
shovels. They are totally unsuited for digging. The blade is too thin
and too large. The shoulder is the same thin thickness as the blade
and will cut through the sole of your boots in short order. If you

I get the feeling that introducing the "Irish" bit into the description
seems to add more confusion. I would guess most people are thinking of
something like:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Long-Handle-...digging+shovel

Thick heavy welded blade, with a big step on the top for comfort driving
it with your feet. That sounds somewhat different from what you describe
which is quite possibly different it all respects apart from general
appearance in a picture!



--
Cheers,

John.

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On Monday, July 22, 2013 2:06:18 PM UTC+1, John Rumm wrote:
On 22/07/2013 13:41, fred wrote:



I've been reading this with great amusement.



I'm Irish.



I have never heard of an Irish shovel. Here we just call them

shovels. They are totally unsuited for digging. The blade is too thin

and too large. The shoulder is the same thin thickness as the blade

and will cut through the sole of your boots in short order. If you



I get the feeling that introducing the "Irish" bit into the description

seems to add more confusion. I would guess most people are thinking of

something like:



http://www.amazon.co.uk/Long-Handle-...digging+shovel



Thick heavy welded blade, with a big step on the top for comfort driving

it with your feet. That sounds somewhat different from what you describe

which is quite possibly different it all respects apart from general

appearance in a picture!







--

Cheers,



John.



/================================================== ===============\

| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |

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| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |

\================================================= ================/

Never, never saw one of those in Ireland.It appears to be an American device. The dimensions given are strange, 8.3cm x 21.8cm x 14.6cm (3 1/4" x 8 1/2" x 57 1/2 ") Can't make sense of the first two, the last is obviously the length of the handle and head which would make it smaller than a standard Irish shovel.

To my mind this would only work in soft earth, or dirt as the Yanks call it.. I have tried penetrating earth with a shovel when I was too lazy to go back and get a spade but it doesn't work. The blade tends to twist under one's foot

As an aside I watched an old electrician cut a channel in a wall one time. He used a 1" wide cold chisel. When I thought about it he was right. Each blow on the head of the chisel had only to work on 1" of a cutting edge. A wider head would have dissipated the effort. I feel the same way about shovels/spades. The larger the blade the more the effort needed.

If you want to dig, use a spade. If you want to shovel, use a shovel. Don't arse around.

fred wrote:
[snip]

As an aside I watched an old electrician cut a channel in a wall one
time. He used a 1" wide cold chisel. When I thought about it he was
right. Each blow on the head of the chisel had only to work on 1" of a
cutting edge. A wider head would have dissipated the effort. I feel the
same way about shovels/spades. The larger the blade the more the effort needed.

If you want to dig, use a spade. If you want to shovel, use a shovel. Don't arse around.

But English spades have a blade that is about 8 inches wide. They are
equivalent to the use of a bolster in the example you give. A digging
shovel has a pointed blade, it is much easier to kick into clay, boulder
clay or stony soil than an English spade.

Oddly I've brevet experienced a digging shovel twisting in use. And the
digging variety has a heavier blade with a thick top edge, they are not the
stamped from tin objects that you imagine.

I can't buy an English spade in any local DIY shed or garden centre. No one
uses them. All the shovels are marked "Svenska" and are tough and designed
for digging.

Let's call them long handled spades. Are you all happy now?

BTW given comments about twisting and the blade cutting into one's foot,
perhaps giving work boots a try rather than moccasins would be a good idea?

--
€¢DarWin|
_/ _/

Onetap wrote:
On Monday, July 22, 2013 9:59:01 AM UTC+1, John Rumm wrote:

Yes because council road crews up and down the UK are renowned for
their

hyper efficiency ;-)

You can't lean on a long-handled shovel. ;-)

Nothing stopping four council workers from watching the fifth one having a
go at leaning on one:-)


--
Adam

John Rumm wrote:

My theory is simple and concise. They don't use the long-handles "Irish
shovels", as recommended by Steve, because they're crap for digging.

I would disagree, since I have heard many people extol the virtues of
them for digging, and in many countries it would be the default pattern
of tool for the job.

Paving Expert has an interesting observation on the use of them, he
says:

"you have to grow up using [a long handled shovel] to really understand
how best to use it. In the hands of a novice, or even when used by
someone more familiar with a D- or T-handled spade, they can be awkward
and unwieldy, but in the hands of a regular user, they are a tool of
superb finesse. "

http://www.pavingexpert.com/tools01.htm

I'm perfectly willing to accept that OneCrap has never used one and
doesn't know what the is talking about.

--
Burn Hollywood burn, burn down to the ground

On Monday, July 22, 2013 8:51:52 PM UTC+1, Steve Firth wrote:
John Rumm wrote:



My theory is simple and concise. They don't use the long-handles "Irish

shovels", as recommended by Steve, because they're crap for digging.



I would disagree, since I have heard many people extol the virtues of

them for digging, and in many countries it would be the default pattern

of tool for the job.



Paving Expert has an interesting observation on the use of them, he

says:



"you have to grow up using [a long handled shovel] to really understand

how best to use it. In the hands of a novice, or even when used by

someone more familiar with a D- or T-handled spade, they can be awkward

and unwieldy, but in the hands of a regular user, they are a tool of

superb finesse. "



http://www.pavingexpert.com/tools01.htm




Oh deary me!

That is almost funny, it's such a pathetic attempt at avoiding facing up to the facts and admitting that you were mistaken and your earlier posts were bull****.

You have missed out the title and the last bit of the quote. So, to correct any attempted misinformation, I post it in full.

"Irish shovel
Widely used throughout Ireland, this is one of those yokes that you have to grow up using to really understand how best to use it.
In the hands of a novice, or even when used by someone more familiar with a D- or T-handled spade, they can be awkward and unwieldy, but in the hands of a regular user, they are a tool of superb finesse.
I'm less impressed with them as a digging tool, but for shifting and levelling loose aggregates, they have no equal."

So, as the man says, it is a shovel, good for shovelling, no good for digging.

Please also see the end of that article.


"Shovel or Spade?
So? Is it a shovel or is it a spade? What's the difference, and does it matter?
Well, quite frankly, does it 'eck! You might call a spade a spade, but lots of folk call a spade a shovel, and vice versa.

My dictionary reveals that a Spade, from the Old English spadu or Latin spatha, is a "long-handled digging tool with a flat blade that is pressed with the foot", while a Shovel, from the Old English scofl, is a "long-handled tool with a broad scoop or blade used in lifting and moving loose material"..

So that's that - you dig with a spade: you shift stuff with a shovel. Clear as mud, eh? "


I'm perfectly willing to accept that OneCrap has never used one and

doesn't know what the is talking about.

You are correct, Mr. Firth. I have never used a shovel, either long or short handled, to dig a hole. I'd always use a spade.

I doubt that you have ever done any serious digging, but I am not interested.
My only aim was to correct your misleading posts.

On Monday, July 22, 2013 2:50:42 PM UTC+1, fred wrote:

Never, never saw one of those in Ireland.It appears to be an American device.

I'd thought the long handled spade thing was German or East European and was exported to America with the immigrants.

I've never used one, I can't see the attraction compared to a D-handle. I'd try it, but think I'm too set in my rut. Maybe the soil types make its use preferable in some locations.

If you want to dig, use a spade. If you want to shovel, use a shovel. Don't arse around.

Absolutely.

On Monday, July 22, 2013 1:41:26 PM UTC+1, fred wrote:

Ye can continue to argue this amongst yourselves but the above is the gospel according to St. Pat

Credo.
Amen to that.

On 22/07/2013 21:23, Onetap wrote:
On Monday, July 22, 2013 2:50:42 PM UTC+1, fred wrote:

Never, never saw one of those in Ireland.It appears to be an
American device.

I'd thought the long handled spade thing was German or East European
and was exported to America with the immigrants.

I've never used one, I can't see the attraction compared to a
D-handle. I'd try it, but think I'm too set in my rut. Maybe the soil
types make its use preferable in some locations.

There is a shorter F Handled version :

http://www.amazon.com/Fiskars-9669-D...T H8D331YC368


--
Cheers,

John.

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On Mon, 22 Jul 2013 13:23:30 -0700 (PDT), Onetap wrote:

I've never used one, I can't see the attraction compared to a D-handle.

They probably work fine for digging ie cutting the sod and turning in
the hole. But for shifting stuff from the hole up onto to the side or
barrow, the thing is very likely to twist and dump it's load back in
the hole. You can grip the shaft to try and stop it twisting but that
doesn't always work and is more effort compared to holding a D or T
handle. Also the shape and lack of any decent upturn on the sides
means it won't hold as much as a proper shovel will.

--
Cheers
Dave.

"Dave Liquorice" wrote:
On Mon, 22 Jul 2013 13:23:30 -0700 (PDT), Onetap wrote:

I've never used one, I can't see the attraction compared to a D-handle.

They probably work fine for digging ie cutting the sod and turning in
the hole. But for shifting stuff from the hole up onto to the side or
barrow, the thing is very likely to twist and dump it's load back in
the hole. You can grip the shaft to try and stop it twisting but that
doesn't always work and is more effort compared to holding a D or T
handle. Also the shape and lack of any decent upturn on the sides
means it won't hold as much as a proper shovel will.

Oh FFS. The long handle means you can get the spoil out of the hole faster
and to a higher location than with a short handled spade. What you call
"proper" shovels are harder to use because they encourage the user to lift
too much and put their back out in the process. A long handled shovel works
on the "little and often" basis to make the job much easier.

--
€¢DarWin|
_/ _/

Onetap wrote:

I've never used one, I can't see the attraction compared to a D-handle.
I'd try it, but think I'm too set in my rut.

That one, as I said.

--
€¢DarWin|
_/ _/

Onetap wrote:

I'm perfectly willing to accept that OneCrap has never used one and
doesn't know what the is talking about.

You are correct, Mr. Firth. I have never used a shovel, either long or
short handled, to dig a hole. I'd always use a spade.


So we've established that I'm correct and you're an ignorant gob****e.

It took time but even you have had to admit it.

I doubt that you have ever done any serious digging, but I am not interested.

You're so not interested that you stalk me.

My only aim was to correct your misleading posts.

You're also a liar. Your only aim is to have a poke at me because you're a
mindless vindictive cowardly moron hiding behind an alias because you're
too much of a coward to sign your name to the **** you post.

My post was not misleading and all you are doing is to prove that I was
right.

Using your "logic" what makes you think an Englush spade is the ideal tool
for digging when rest of the world disagrees with you?

--
€¢DarWin|
_/ _/

Tim Streater wrote:
In article ,
(Steve Firth) wrote:

John Rumm wrote:
My theory is simple and concise. They don't use the long-handles "Irish
shovels", as recommended by Steve, because they're crap for digging.
I would disagree, since I have heard many people extol the virtues of
them for digging, and in many countries it would be the default pattern
of tool for the job.
Paving Expert has an interesting observation on the use of them, he
says:
"you have to grow up using [a long handled shovel] to really understand
how best to use it. In the hands of a novice, or even when used by
someone more familiar with a D- or T-handled spade, they can be awkward
and unwieldy, but in the hands of a regular user, they are a tool of
superb finesse. "
http://www.pavingexpert.com/tools01.htm
I'm perfectly willing to accept that OneCrap has never used one and
doesn't know what the is talking about.

I would find the lack of handle would make it it difficult to use.

Errm it has a handle. The long thing that you hold.

I've not experienced one twisting in my hands in use, but I suspect as
paving expert says, it's all down to practice. I've also not experienced
blades bending or cutting into my feet but I wear boots when digging and
buy tools that aren't made from tinfoil.

The ones I use have a forged blade.

--
€¢DarWin|
_/ _/