On Thu, 22 Nov 2012 12:00:47 +0000 (UTC)
Steve Firth wrote:

Davey wrote:
[snip]

I assume that M&S, in the context of tyres, is a Northern tyre
company?

Assuming that you are not being facetious. In this context M&S = Mud &
Snow. A tyre that's not quite as good as a winter tyre in snow but is
a reasonable compromise for winter use mixed with making progress
over unmade tracks.


No, I wasn't, it is a term that I never met while living in the US.
"Knobblies" was their term. See also my other reply. And thanks.

--
Davey.

On 22/11/12 12:57, Davey wrote:
On Thu, 22 Nov 2012 12:00:47 +0000 (UTC)
Steve Firth wrote:

Davey wrote:
[snip]

I assume that M&S, in the context of tyres, is a Northern tyre
company?

Assuming that you are not being facetious. In this context M&S = Mud &
Snow. A tyre that's not quite as good as a winter tyre in snow but is
a reasonable compromise for winter use mixed with making progress
over unmade tracks.


No, I wasn't, it is a term that I never met while living in the US.
"Knobblies" was their term. See also my other reply. And thanks.

Yeah. I first met it in rallying in-speak. But today you can get
Winter tyres
M + S tyres
All terrain tyres..
Off road tyres.

and a million other marketing-speak terms for 'a tyre optimised for less
than normal conditions'



--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc-ra-cy) €“ a system of government where the least capable to
lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the
members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are
rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a
diminishing number of producers.

On Thu, 22 Nov 2012 09:43:19 +0000, Nightjar wrote:

I read in literature from one of the tyre makers that the tread
patterns in winter tyres are designed to trap snow, as snow grips well
to other snow.

I guess that is what the sipes do. As the tyre deforms as it rolls along
the sipes open, snow get's shoved in the sipe then closes through the
contact patch and opens again on the trailing edge deformation.

I suspect the pressure of the closing sipe will make the snow in it
freeze and possibly a little out into the body of the snow over which the
tyre is traveling. Ice is stronger than snow.

Well it's a theory...

--
Cheers
Dave.

On Nov 21, 11:10*pm, wrote:
I don't
have a Torque wrench to do the job properly anyway.

G.Harman

torque wrench? wheel nuts? "properly"

nah!

Jim K

On 22/11/2012 10:38, charles wrote:


M&S = Mud & Snow tyres. Big chunky treads


ITYM mud and slush.

On Wed, 21 Nov 2012 23:10:28 +0000
wrote:

On Wed, 21 Nov 2012 16:13:39 +0000, Nightjar
wrote:


I preferred to buy my tyres from my local tyre centre, who have been
supplying me for decades. Their price for wheels and tyres was was
much the same as buying on the web and they fit them for me.


I use an independent local tyre centre a mile from home and they are
very competitive with the bigger chains . If it's a case of replacing
worn tyres rather than the rare occasion a tyre gets damaged then
giving them a few days notice gives them a better chance of getting
them at the best price.
They are embarrassingly cheap when the swap of wheels with Winter
tyres takes place about now and again in the spring.
Take them in a large box of Chocolate biscuits when they have a quiet
moment and the job is done. I wish they would take some cash as well
but they decline,"just as long as you buy the tyres from us we don't
mind doing it"
It's a pleasant way to do business. The biscuits cost about £4 from
the milkman ,for that it is not worth getting a jack out and I don't
have a Torque wrench to do the job properly anyway.

G.Harman

You and 99.9999999999999999999999999% of everybody else on the road.
--
Davey.

In message , The Natural Philosopher
writes
On 22/11/12 12:57, Davey wrote:
On Thu, 22 Nov 2012 12:00:47 +0000 (UTC)
Steve Firth wrote:

Davey wrote:
[snip]

I assume that M&S, in the context of tyres, is a Northern tyre
company?

Assuming that you are not being facetious. In this context M&S = Mud &
Snow. A tyre that's not quite as good as a winter tyre in snow but is
a reasonable compromise for winter use mixed with making progress
over unmade tracks.


No, I wasn't, it is a term that I never met while living in the US.
"Knobblies" was their term. See also my other reply. And thanks.

Yeah. I first met it in rallying in-speak. But today you can get
Winter tyres
M + S tyres
All terrain tyres..
Off road tyres.

and a million other marketing-speak terms for 'a tyre optimised for
less than normal conditions'



Most tyres used for Off-road are MTs - Mud Terrains - or have they now
started calling them M&S? Big chunky treads so they don't clog up with
mud so easily and become a slick. Noisy on road and especially not so
good in the wet.
--
bert

charles wrote:
In article
,
jgharston wrote:
ARW wrote:
http://i428.photobucket.com/albums/q...0/100_0263.jpg
I had a day off work that day.

I was living in deepest Aberdeenshire then:
http://pics.mdfs.net/2010/11/101103.htm

To collect my car in Sheffield and get it back I bought some
snow chains, but never needed them, I found that careful slow
low-gear driving was adequate. I suppose I was lucky in having
my driving lessons in similar weather, so I had instructed
experience.

the trouble is the other people who haven't learned to drive in snow.

And that is always the biggest problem. It seems that everyone now just puts
on more revs when the car does not move in the snow. There is a lack of
basic training for such things.

I would have been about 13 years old when it snowed heavily and my Dad took
me to the school carpark - it was closed and he taught me how to drive in
the snow in a Ford Sierra.

And yes we did fill the boot up with sacks of coal to give a little weight
on the rear end before we set off.

--
Adam

Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Tue, 20 Nov 2012 21:38:47 +0000, polygonum wrote:

http://i428.photobucket.com/albums/q...0/100_0263.jpg

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/318411/Snow%20Hill.jpg

Niether look like snow to me:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/allsort...72157623194502
480

B-)

But at least we have a road when the snow melts!

--
Adam

On Nov 22, 8:10*pm, "ARW" wrote:
charles wrote:
In article
,
* jgharston wrote:
ARW wrote:
http://i428.photobucket.com/albums/q...0/100_0263.jpg
I had a day off work that day.

I was living in deepest Aberdeenshire then:
*http://pics.mdfs.net/2010/11/101103.htm

To collect my car in Sheffield and get it back I bought some
snow chains, but never needed them, I found that careful slow
low-gear driving was adequate. I suppose I was lucky in having
my driving lessons in similar weather, so I had instructed
experience.

the trouble is the other people who haven't learned to drive in snow.

And that is always the biggest problem. It seems that everyone now just puts
on more revs when the car does not move in the snow. There is a lack of
basic training for such things.

I would have been about 13 years old when it snowed heavily and my Dad took
me to the school carpark - it was closed and he taught me how to drive in
the snow in a Ford Sierra.

And yes we did fill the boot up with sacks of coal to give a little weight
on the rear end before we set off.

--
Adam

ey up mother, if't whippets int bath, where'st coal?

Jim K

On Nov 22, 7:08*pm, bert ] wrote:
In message , The Natural Philosopher
writes



On 22/11/12 12:57, Davey wrote:
On Thu, 22 Nov 2012 12:00:47 +0000 (UTC)
Steve Firth wrote:

Davey wrote:
[snip]

I assume that M&S, in the context of tyres, is a Northern tyre
company?

Assuming that you are not being facetious. In this context M&S = Mud &
Snow. A tyre that's not quite as good as a winter tyre in snow but is
a reasonable compromise for winter use mixed with making progress
over unmade tracks.

No, I wasn't, it is a term that I never met while living in the US.
"Knobblies" was their term. See also my other reply. And thanks.

Yeah. I first met it in rallying in-speak. But today you can get
Winter tyres
M + S tyres
All terrain tyres..
Off road tyres.

and a million other marketing-speak terms for 'a tyre optimised for
less than normal conditions'

Most tyres used for Off-road are MTs - Mud Terrains - or have they now
started calling them M&S? Big chunky treads so they don't clog up with
mud so easily and become a slick. Noisy on road and especially not so
good in the wet.
--
bert

"M+S" tyres are not necessarily so aggressive tread wise, my 4wd had
Toyo M+S rated on it when new, they looked, drove & sounded just like
"ordinary" tyres to me....

Jim K

On Thu, 22 Nov 2012 10:48:12 +0000, Davey wrote:
I
have never needed them, even driving in Canada in winter. Take care,
drive very very smoothly, and watch out for the others who have no clue.

The advice is the same, even with M+S tyres - they just let you get to
where you're going a bit quicker :-)

They're very common where I am in the US, but I don't think I'd heard of
them prior to moving over here.

We had a set on the car and they did indeed make a difference, and they
initially coped well with non M+S conditions - but then they suddenly
seemed to wear extremely quickly, such that they ended up lasting for
much less time than I'd expect from a regular tyre.

It may be highly brand dependent (I can't for the life of me remember
what brand the ones we had were), but for that reason I'd only ever run
two sets now, probably keeping a second set of wheels with them on so
that it was less hassle to swap.

cheers

Jules

On Thu, 22 Nov 2012 20:16:22 -0000, ARW wrote:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/allsorts-60/4265281313

But at least we have a road when the snow melts!

But there is a tarmac road under there when the snow melts. Wide enough
for two cars to pass without slowing down too much.

--
Cheers
Dave.

On Thu, 22 Nov 2012 12:24:09 +0000, Muddymike wrote:
We don't seem to get big snowblowers like that (although I suspect that
the airport has some) - I suppose the ploughs are good enough (and they
all grit at the same time). Plenty of people do have smaller snowblowers
for clearing driveways.

This is how i do it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ArEvTOPQGuU&list=UUqe-
yiWzojsw1WHOf2RsSow&index=18&feature=plcp

Yep, those are they... loads around here, although many people have quad-
bikes with blades fitted instead, plus I see lots of trucks with plough
blades (there are probably more pickups around here than there are cars).

cheers

Jules

On Thu, 22 Nov 2012 19:07:14 +0000, bert wrote:

Most tyres used for Off-road are MTs - Mud Terrains - or have they now
started calling them M&S? Big chunky treads so they don't clog up with
mud so easily and become a slick. Noisy on road and especially not so
good in the wet.

No Mud Terrains are different from (to?) M&S's. Muds are as you say and
are not as good on snow as M&S or a winter tyre. Dig back up the thread
to a post of mine that has links to an image of a M&S tyre (Pirelli
Scorpian STR).

--
Cheers
Dave.

On Tue, 20 Nov 2012 21:32:49 -0000, "ARW"
wrote:


http://i428.photobucket.com/albums/q...0/100_0263.jpg


I had a day off work that day.


Just another summer day in Yorkshire


--

On Thu, 22 Nov 2012 16:02:07 +0000, "dennis@home"
wrote:

On 22/11/2012 10:38, charles wrote:


M&S = Mud & Snow tyres. Big chunky treads


ITYM mud and slush.

It used to be that two or three decades ago but many now call them mud and snow


--

On Thu, 22 Nov 2012 00:14:46 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Liquorice"
wrote:

Not necessarily. Ever seen film of Icelanders driving in snow? They
reduce the pressure right down to give bigger footprint which means
lower pressure and so don't sink into the snow.

That's 'cause the snow is deeper than the ground clearance of the
vehicle. You don't want the wheels to dig down to find a solid surface as
you won't before the vehicle is resting on it's underside. BTDTGTTS the
winter before last IIRC.

In this country with just an inch or two of snow over tarmac there is
something to be said for a narrower tyre and big blocks to dig down
through the snow to find the tarmac.

In my first experience of driving in snow in 1960's Renaults 4, 8 and
10 with narrow tyres I'd second the narrow tyre approach for most snow
conditions on UK/Irish roads [1]. In some parts, of course, conditions
would warrant the other approach.

[1] I was able to get by dozens of stranded cars driven by clueless
twonks.

On Wed, 21 Nov 2012 10:15:55 +0000, Davey
wrote:

I am running M&S all year round
On the land rover


Marks and Spencer sell wheels for Land Rovers?

Sure it's not C&A?

On Wed, 21 Nov 2012 11:19:40 +0000, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

Sea shore wader, often seen in groups running up and down the beach
chased by waves. Wouldn't call 'em large, small/medium.


That's Feminus Essexus, the well known 'Essex Girl'

Many of them aren't small, either.

On Thu, 22 Nov 2012 22:28:45 +0000, Grimly Curmudgeon wrote:

On Wed, 21 Nov 2012 10:15:55 +0000, Davey
wrote:

I am running M&S all year round
On the land rover


Marks and Spencer sell wheels for Land Rovers?

Sure it's not C&A?

Scotty probably has a T shirt with a C&A logo on it.


--

Grimly Curmudgeon wrote:
On Thu, 22 Nov 2012 00:14:46 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Liquorice"
wrote:

Not necessarily. Ever seen film of Icelanders driving in snow? They
reduce the pressure right down to give bigger footprint which means
lower pressure and so don't sink into the snow.

That's 'cause the snow is deeper than the ground clearance of the
vehicle. You don't want the wheels to dig down to find a solid surface as
you won't before the vehicle is resting on it's underside. BTDTGTTS the
winter before last IIRC.

In this country with just an inch or two of snow over tarmac there is
something to be said for a narrower tyre and big blocks to dig down
through the snow to find the tarmac.

In my first experience of driving in snow in 1960's Renaults 4, 8 and
10 with narrow tyres I'd second the narrow tyre approach for most snow
conditions on UK/Irish roads [1]. In some parts, of course, conditions
would warrant the other approach.

[1] I was able to get by dozens of stranded cars driven by clueless
twonks.

Ditto. The R4 was great in snow. Good ground clearance and the skinny tyres
seemed to track much better that wider tyres in snow.

Tim

Again, I'm rather late into this thread, but this was very much my
problem about 20 years ago, I lived at the top of a very steep hill.
While I can't completely solve such a problem for you, here are some
tips ...

1) If a wheel is spinning:

a) Don't rev, you'll merely dig it further in. The trick is to use a
lower torque gear such as second, and let the clutch up really slowly,
so that the shear effect from the wheels trying to turn on the snow is
minimised.

b) If you have a differential-lock on the vehicle, use it, because
then you will still get traction from the remaining driving-wheel(s).
Release the diff-lock(s) once out of the bother, otherwise steering
will be adversely affected.

c) If you have four-wheel-drive, use that also, but again note that
you will still need to use the diff-lock(s), if available, and that,
depending on how the front and rear drives are taken off the engine,
there may not just be a diff-lock between the left and right wheels at
each end, but also between front and rear drive trains, so potentially
three diff-locks in all, although there may be only one lever which
controls all three together.

2) If one or more wheels are stuck in a rut, try to rock them out by
applying traction in resonant pulses timed just as the weight of the
car is driving them up the side of the dip.

3) Don't rev or brake excessively - drive as you would if you were
trying to walk on ice, do everything very progressively and gently.

4) If you get into a skid, steer progressively into it.

Some of the above are just as valid with mud, as any dirt-track biker
will tell you, as in fact one once taught me, but using a tractor.

5) For front-wheel drive cars, as most are these days, you may be
able to get up a hill in reverse when you can't forwards, as then the
slope of the hill puts more weight on the driving wheels. Rear-wheel
drive cars of course should travel uphill forwards.

6) Keep a tub of grit/salt (lashed) and a proper shovel in the boot.

Now that I appear to be about to spend a winter comparatively out in
the wild, I've wondered about changing tyres, etc, but the simple
truth seems to be that, here, the council is so good at gritting that
no especial measures have yet proved necessary, despite snow on the
high peaks, some frosty nights, and roads that commonly have moisture
or even water dripping from rock faces onto them. Hence so far I've
not done anything about preparing for winter.

If action should prove necessary, I'm minded to go for a spare set of
wheels from a scrapheap or eBay, and put suitable winter tyres on
them.

For an old Volvo 122 estate, I used to have some clip-on metal frames
that were rather like snow chains, but far quicker and easier to fit.
They got me out of a couple of bad spots - once I used them to tow a
friend's car from a dangerous position where he'd had to abandon it to
a safe place to park it. However, if the wheel bounced they'd hit the
wheel arch, and the treads on them wore away quite quickly, tho' if
I'd had a welder it would have been easy enough to fix that.

I wonder if they still make the tyres you used to get on Land Rovers?
I think they were called Town And Country tyres? I wonder what those
were/are like in snow ...

On Tue, 20 Nov 2012 20:11:09 +0000, polygonum
wrote:

I live in a very hilly area - and, though we live off a decent quality
tarmac road, we can get effectively cut off quite easily. Year before
last (IIRC) we were unable to drive out for about three days. The level
roads were mostly passable but the slopes were impossible. So, in my
deep ignorance of these matters, I have been contemplating getting some
snow chains.
--
================================================== =======
Please always reply to ng as the email in this post's
header does not exist. Or use a contact address at:
http://www.macfh.co.uk/JavaJive/JavaJive.html
http://www.macfh.co.uk/Macfarlane/Macfarlane.html

In message , Jules Richardson
writes
On Thu, 22 Nov 2012 12:24:09 +0000, Muddymike wrote:
We don't seem to get big snowblowers like that (although I suspect that
the airport has some) - I suppose the ploughs are good enough (and they
all grit at the same time). Plenty of people do have smaller snowblowers
for clearing driveways.

This is how i do it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ArEvTOPQGuU&list=UUqe-
yiWzojsw1WHOf2RsSow&index=18&feature=plcp

Yep, those are they... loads around here, although many people have quad-
bikes with blades fitted instead, plus I see lots of trucks with plough
blades (there are probably more pickups around here than there are cars).

cheers

Jules
Simmonites do a snow plough for a Defender. Doesn't look like a quick
job to attach it.
--
bert

On Thu, 22 Nov 2012 22:47:59 +0000, The Other Mike
wrote:

Marks and Spencer sell wheels for Land Rovers?

Sure it's not C&A?

Scotty probably has a T shirt with a C&A logo on it.

I hope he wears it the right way round.

On Thu, 22 Nov 2012 22:27:38 +0000, The Other Mike
wrote:

M&S = Mud & Snow tyres. Big chunky treads


ITYM mud and slush.

It used to be that two or three decades ago but many now call them mud and snow

It was always mud and snow.

On Thu, 22 Nov 2012 20:10:18 -0000, "ARW"
wrote:

And yes we did fill the boot up with sacks of coal to give a little weight
on the rear end before we set off.

Filled the boot with coal?
What were you, millionaires?

Grimly Curmudgeon wrote:
On Thu, 22 Nov 2012 22:27:38 +0000, The Other Mike
wrote:

M&S = Mud & Snow tyres. Big chunky treads

ITYM mud and slush.
It used to be that two or three decades ago but many now call them mud and snow

It was always mud and snow.

I remember Dad religiously putting the Mud & Snow tyres on the car every
Winter in the '60s. That was in the days when each tyre on the car had a
different pressure in it, too.

--
Tciao for Now!

John.

Grimly Curmudgeon wrote:
On Thu, 22 Nov 2012 20:10:18 -0000, "ARW"
wrote:

And yes we did fill the boot up with sacks of coal to give a little weight
on the rear end before we set off.

Filled the boot with coal?
What were you, millionaires?

Have you seen the size of the boot on a Skiderra?

--
Tciao for Now!

John.

On 23/11/12 14:30, Grimly Curmudgeon wrote:
On Thu, 22 Nov 2012 22:27:38 +0000, The Other Mike
wrote:

M&S = Mud & Snow tyres. Big chunky treads


ITYM mud and slush.

It used to be that two or three decades ago but many now call them mud and snow

It was always mud and snow.

I think it was originally a German term..I've heard both, early on in
rallying, mud and slush: latterly mud and snow in consumer car parlance.


--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc-ra-cy) €“ a system of government where the least capable to
lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the
members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are
rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a
diminishing number of producers.

John Williamson wrote:

I remember Dad religiously putting the Mud & Snow tyres on the car every
Winter in the '60s. That was in the days when each tyre on the car had a
different pressure in it, too.

Around that time, the ones my Dad used to put on were "Town &
Country".

Chris
--
Chris J Dixon Nottingham UK


Have dancing shoes, will ceilidh.

On 22/11/2012 20:10, ARW wrote:
charles wrote:
In article
,
jgharston wrote:
ARW wrote:
http://i428.photobucket.com/albums/q...0/100_0263.jpg
I had a day off work that day.

I was living in deepest Aberdeenshire then:
http://pics.mdfs.net/2010/11/101103.htm

To collect my car in Sheffield and get it back I bought some
snow chains, but never needed them, I found that careful slow
low-gear driving was adequate. I suppose I was lucky in having
my driving lessons in similar weather, so I had instructed
experience.

the trouble is the other people who haven't learned to drive in snow.

And that is always the biggest problem. It seems that everyone now just puts
on more revs when the car does not move in the snow. There is a lack of
basic training for such things.

I would have been about 13 years old when it snowed heavily and my Dad took
me to the school carpark - it was closed and he taught me how to drive in
the snow in a Ford Sierra.

And yes we did fill the boot up with sacks of coal to give a little weight
on the rear end before we set off.

As I mentioned up-thread, even if I _could_ get winter tyres it isn't
worth it. The big problem is being stuck behind someone who is stuck
behind someone else who is...

And that's in a car with RWD, no limited slip diff, low ground clearance
and fat tyres.

Andy

On Fri, 23 Nov 2012 16:09:11 +0000, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

On 23/11/12 14:30, Grimly Curmudgeon wrote:
On Thu, 22 Nov 2012 22:27:38 +0000, The Other Mike
wrote:

M&S = Mud & Snow tyres. Big chunky treads


ITYM mud and slush.

It used to be that two or three decades ago but many now call them mud and snow

It was always mud and snow.

I think it was originally a German term..I've heard both, early on in
rallying, mud and slush: latterly mud and snow in consumer car parlance.

It was in a rallying context I first heard of them.


--