http://m.dailymail.co.uk/money/inves...ix-shares.html

Anyone know anything about these, or the technology employed ? I dunno, but
it feels like one of those "If it seems too good to be true ... " things. Or
is it just another company jumping on the eco-bollox bandwagon ?

Arfa

On Wed, 11 Jul 2012 17:08:26 +0100, Arfa Daily wrote:

http://m.dailymail.co.uk/money/inves...ix-shares.html

Anyone know anything about these, or the technology employed ? I dunno, but
it feels like one of those "If it seems too good to be true ... " things. Or
is it just another company jumping on the eco-bollox bandwagon ?

Arfa

I did look at it to some extent but I probably don't use enough to cover the
extra cost.
Also there's that voltage-reducing BS on the same site, so credibility is
very low.
--
Peter.
The gods will stay away
whilst religions hold sway

On 11/07/2012 17:08, Arfa Daily wrote:
http://m.dailymail.co.uk/money/inves...ix-shares.html


Anyone know anything about these, or the technology employed ? I dunno,
but it feels like one of those "If it seems too good to be true ... "
things. Or is it just another company jumping on the eco-bollox bandwagon ?


Sounds like a variation on the rent your roof scheme so that suppliers
of the kit can reap the rewards of feed in tariffs etc.

Problem is that is shifts yet more of our generation capacity to gas at
a time where they are bleating about carbon reduction.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On Wednesday, July 11, 2012 7:21:31 PM UTC+1, John Rumm wrote:

Sounds like a variation on the rent your roof scheme so that suppliers
of the kit can reap the rewards of feed in tariffs etc.

Problem is that is shifts yet more of our generation capacity to gas at
a time where they are bleating about carbon reduction.

Exactly so, Microgen mini-CHP boilers, the company pays for the boiler and installation and reaps the RHI payments for the next couple of decades.

PeterC wrote:
On Wed, 11 Jul 2012 17:08:26 +0100, Arfa Daily wrote:

http://m.dailymail.co.uk/money/inves...ix-shares.html

Anyone know anything about these, or the technology employed ? I dunno, but
it feels like one of those "If it seems too good to be true ... " things. Or
is it just another company jumping on the eco-bollox bandwagon ?

Arfa

I did look at it to some extent but I probably don't use enough to cover the
extra cost.
Also there's that voltage-reducing BS on the same site, so credibility is
very low.

what occurs to me is that if its generating electricity from gas in a
boiler it will be BLOODY EXPENSIVE electricity. Not for free at all.



--
To people who know nothing, anything is possible.
To people who know too much, it is a sad fact
that they know how little is really possible -
and how hard it is to achieve it.

On Jul 11, 5:08*pm, "Arfa Daily" wrote:
http://m.dailymail.co.uk/money/inves...1/MIDAS-Will-f...

Anyone know anything about these, or the technology employed ? I dunno, but
it feels like one of those "If it seems too good to be true ... " things. Or
is it just another company jumping on the eco-bollox bandwagon ?

Arfa

This was discussed here a whiles back. It is called "co-generation" or
"combined heat and power" and has been used industrially for a century
at least.
An internal combustion engine drives a generator.
Heat from exhaust gases is used to heat the home.

So they chuck out your gas boiler and substitue a device that makes
both heat and electricity. Your combi- boiler is obsolete.
Simples. In theory.
There are massive operational problems inherent in these devices to do
with ratio of heat and electricity generated.
The cunning trick is to minaturise it and make it run silently and
reliably.
There are massive control problems too.

Perhaps they have been solved, the idea has been in extent for years
but the practical difficultiies in the domestic situation have stopped
it

John Rumm wrote:
On 11/07/2012 17:08, Arfa Daily wrote:
http://m.dailymail.co.uk/money/inves...ix-shares.html



Anyone know anything about these, or the technology employed ? I dunno,
but it feels like one of those "If it seems too good to be true ... "
things. Or is it just another company jumping on the eco-bollox
bandwagon ?


Sounds like a variation on the rent your roof scheme so that suppliers
of the kit can reap the rewards of feed in tariffs etc.

Problem is that is shifts yet more of our generation capacity to gas at
a time where they are bleating about carbon reduction.

and when gas is more expensive than coal, which has moved gas out of the
top spot for electricity generation.

CHP would make more sense,. Nice coal boiler driving a steam turbine and
heat your home off what's left.


--
To people who know nothing, anything is possible.
To people who know too much, it is a sad fact
that they know how little is really possible -
and how hard it is to achieve it.

Onetap wrote:
On Wednesday, July 11, 2012 7:21:31 PM UTC+1, John Rumm wrote:

Sounds like a variation on the rent your roof scheme so that suppliers
of the kit can reap the rewards of feed in tariffs etc.

Problem is that is shifts yet more of our generation capacity to gas at
a time where they are bleating about carbon reduction.

Exactly so, Microgen mini-CHP boilers, the company pays for the boiler and installation and reaps the RHI payments for the next couple of decades.

Oh. so another harry style scam then?

--
To people who know nothing, anything is possible.
To people who know too much, it is a sad fact
that they know how little is really possible -
and how hard it is to achieve it.

Anyone know anything about these, or the technology employed ? I dunno, but
it feels like one of those "If it seems too good to be true ... " things. Or
is it just another company jumping on the eco-bollox bandwagon ?

Arfa

As for investing in it, I dunno. It depends if they have solved the
inherent problems and they are huge.
But if they have fixed all the problems then the potential of the
device is enormous.

The economics revolve around the price differential between
electricity and gas.
Ie,it turns cheap gas into expensive electricity and recovers the
otherwise wasted heat.
Or some of it. And therein lies another potential problem.

On Jul 11, 7:21*pm, John Rumm wrote:
On 11/07/2012 17:08, Arfa Daily wrote:

http://m.dailymail.co.uk/money/inves...1/MIDAS-Will-f...

Anyone know anything about these, or the technology employed ? I dunno,
but it feels like one of those "If it seems too good to be true ... "
things. Or is it just another company jumping on the eco-bollox bandwagon ?

Sounds like a variation on the rent your roof scheme so that suppliers
of the kit can reap the rewards of feed in tariffs etc.

Problem is that is shifts yet more of our generation capacity to gas at
a time where they are bleating about carbon reduction.



You are missing the point.
The point is, it recovers otherwise wasted heat and generates
electricity at point of use so making the overall process very
efficient.
It bridges the gap left by PV electricity, ieby night.

There is a plan you know. Beyond TurNiP's comprehension.

The problem is, it can't generate electricity without generating heat.

Gas has only one fifth the carbon of coal. There MAY be a lot of
shale gas under our feet.

On Jul 11, 8:03*pm, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:
John Rumm wrote:
On 11/07/2012 17:08, Arfa Daily wrote:
http://m.dailymail.co.uk/money/inves...1/MIDAS-Will-f....

Anyone know anything about these, or the technology employed ? I dunno,
but it feels like one of those "If it seems too good to be true ... "
things. Or is it just another company jumping on the eco-bollox
bandwagon ?

Sounds like a variation on the rent your roof scheme so that suppliers
of the kit can reap the rewards of feed in tariffs etc.

Problem is that is shifts yet more of our generation capacity to gas at
a time where they are bleating about carbon reduction.

and when gas is more expensive than coal, which has moved gas out of the
top spot for electricity generation.

CHP would make more sense,. Nice coal boiler driving a steam turbine and
heat your home off what's left.

--
To people who know nothing, anything is possible.
To people who know too much, it is a sad fact
that they know how little is really possible -
and how hard it is to achieve it.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

It IS CHP ****wit.

harry wrote:
Anyone know anything about these, or the technology employed ? I dunno, but
it feels like one of those "If it seems too good to be true ... " things. Or
is it just another company jumping on the eco-bollox bandwagon ?

Arfa

As for investing in it, I dunno. It depends if they have solved the
inherent problems and they are huge.
But if they have fixed all the problems then the potential of the
device is enormous.


almost as big as your dick.

In orther words it has almost zero potential.

The economics revolve around the price differential between
electricity and gas.
Ie,it turns cheap gas into expensive electricity and recovers the
otherwise wasted heat.
Or some of it. And therein lies another potential problem.

Its all potential problem.

Mostly revolving around the fact that you need electricity all year
round, not just when you need central heating.

And microgeneration is always less efficient and more costly than a
power station.

--
To people who know nothing, anything is possible.
To people who know too much, it is a sad fact
that they know how little is really possible -
and how hard it is to achieve it.

On 11/07/2012 20:01, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
PeterC wrote:
On Wed, 11 Jul 2012 17:08:26 +0100, Arfa Daily wrote:

http://m.dailymail.co.uk/money/inves...ix-shares.html


Anyone know anything about these, or the technology employed ? I
dunno, but it feels like one of those "If it seems too good to be
true ... " things. Or is it just another company jumping on the
eco-bollox bandwagon ?

Arfa

I did look at it to some extent but I probably don't use enough to
cover the
extra cost.
Also there's that voltage-reducing BS on the same site, so credibility is
very low.

what occurs to me is that if its generating electricity from gas in a
boiler it will be BLOODY EXPENSIVE electricity. Not for free at all.



The home power station units raised a lot of press a couple of years
back ... don't know of anyone who has fitted one though.

On Wed, 11 Jul 2012 22:04:45 +0100, Tim Streater
wrote:

In article
,
harry wrote:

On Jul 11, 7:21*pm, John Rumm wrote:
On 11/07/2012 17:08, Arfa Daily wrote:

http://m.dailymail.co.uk/money/inves...1/MIDAS-Will-f...

Anyone know anything about these, or the technology employed ? I dunno,
but it feels like one of those "If it seems too good to be true ... "
things. Or is it just another company jumping on the eco-bollox bandwagon

Sounds like a variation on the rent your roof scheme so that suppliers
of the kit can reap the rewards of feed in tariffs etc.

Problem is that is shifts yet more of our generation capacity to gas at
a time where they are bleating about carbon reduction.

You are missing the point.
The point is, it recovers otherwise wasted heat and generates
electricity at point of use so making the overall process very
efficient.

Which waste heat is that then, harry? My new boiler is condensing. That
means the exhaust gases are well below 100C, AIUI.

Power stations already have, and have had for a long time, high and low
pressure turbines, so that after the high pressure steam has expanded
and cooled once, the trick is repeated at a lower temp and pressure. Sad
thing is, that as temp and pressure get lower, turbine size needed gets
bigger.

I wonder how big a turbine I'd need hanging off my oil boiler flue so
that the ****er actually *rotated*.

Any engineers here care to hazard a guess?

It didn't occur to me that a turbine was used, I was thinking of a
thermopile in the flu.

--
Graham.
%Profound_observation%

"The Natural Philosopher"
Anyone know anything about these, or the technology employed ? I dunno,
but
it feels like one of those "If it seems too good to be true ... "
things. Or
is it just another company jumping on the eco-bollox bandwagon ?

About 10 or more years ago, a devise came onto the motorhome market, whisper
gen or something like that,
was a small plastic case you mounted on the chassis rails, a bit larger than
a shoe box for boots,

inside was a 50cc 2 stroke engine, coupled directly to an electric motor,

connection were, lpg for the fuel, the 2 stroke oil line.. engine ran at a
very very low oil to fuel ratio and 'had' to use their special oil they
said, then a few 3 inch or so pipes, one of them was the engines exhaust, it
had a very well silenced silencer, the other hoses were cold air in, and
warm/hot air out, and an electrical connection,

A pretty controll box inside the motorhome was used to control it,

it used the motor to start the engine, then the engine drove the motor and
produced upto 20 amps at 12 volts DC to charge the batteries, and the waste
heat from the engine running was piped into the motorhomes blown air heating
ducts, a diverter valve let it blow the hot air out under the vehicle in
summer,

I saw them when they first came onto the market, almost every motorhome
showroom had one on it's display stand, hooked up ready to go, you just
flipped the switch to on, and heard a little whine, then a very faint soung
of the engine running, it was amaingly quiet... and this was inside the
showroom building.

fairly impressive most people thought, then they read the specs... a 20 amp
max output wasnt that great, mind still more than most factory installed
chargers back then, but then you saw the price tag and walked away shaking
your head.

cant recall if it was 3 or 5 grand plus fitting, but for what it was it was
bloody expensive, i never met anyone who had one fitted, and i don't think
they are around anymore,

most people went and bought those 50 quid chinkie 2 stroke gennies instead
(and let the magic smoke out of the inteligent and expensive chargers in the
motorhome

Graham. wrote:

It didn't occur to me that a turbine was used, I was thinking of a
thermopile in the flu.

Seems to be a scroll-compressor run in reverse, they also sell UPSes,
which are based on an air reservoir also driving a scroll-compressor in
reverse.

harry wrote:
On Jul 11, 7:21 pm, John Rumm wrote:
On 11/07/2012 17:08, Arfa Daily wrote:

http://m.dailymail.co.uk/money/inves...1/MIDAS-Will-f...
Anyone know anything about these, or the technology employed ? I dunno,
but it feels like one of those "If it seems too good to be true ... "
things. Or is it just another company jumping on the eco-bollox bandwagon ?
Sounds like a variation on the rent your roof scheme so that suppliers
of the kit can reap the rewards of feed in tariffs etc.

Problem is that is shifts yet more of our generation capacity to gas at
a time where they are bleating about carbon reduction.



You are missing the point.
The point is, it recovers otherwise wasted heat and generates
electricity at point of use so making the overall process very
efficient.
It bridges the gap left by PV electricity, ieby night.

There is a plan you know. Beyond TurNiP's comprehension.


liek the plan to invade afghanistan and Iraq one supposes.

The problem is, it can't generate electricity without generating heat.

Gas has only one fifth the carbon of coal. There MAY be a lot of
shale gas under our feet.

so what? its still a stupid inefficient way to burn it
--
To people who know nothing, anything is possible.
To people who know too much, it is a sad fact
that they know how little is really possible -
and how hard it is to achieve it.

Tim Streater wrote:
In article
,
harry wrote:

On Jul 11, 7:21 pm, John Rumm wrote:
On 11/07/2012 17:08, Arfa Daily wrote:


http://m.dailymail.co.uk/money/inves...1/MIDAS-Will-f...

Anyone know anything about these, or the technology employed ? I
dunno,
but it feels like one of those "If it seems too good to be true ... "
things. Or is it just another company jumping on the eco-bollox
bandwagon
Sounds like a variation on the rent your roof scheme so that suppliers
of the kit can reap the rewards of feed in tariffs etc.

Problem is that is shifts yet more of our generation capacity to gas at
a time where they are bleating about carbon reduction.

You are missing the point.
The point is, it recovers otherwise wasted heat and generates
electricity at point of use so making the overall process very
efficient.

Which waste heat is that then, harry? My new boiler is condensing. That
means the exhaust gases are well below 100C, AIUI.

Power stations already have, and have had for a long time, high and low
pressure turbines, so that after the high pressure steam has expanded
and cooled once, the trick is repeated at a lower temp and pressure. Sad
thing is, that as temp and pressure get lower, turbine size needed gets
bigger.

I wonder how big a turbine I'd need hanging off my oil boiler flue so
that the ****er actually *rotated*.

Any engineers here care to hazard a guess?


you could use a gas turbine...model ones are a couple of thousand and
about 5% efficient.

--
To people who know nothing, anything is possible.
To people who know too much, it is a sad fact
that they know how little is really possible -
and how hard it is to achieve it.

"Graham." wrote in message
...


It didn't occur to me that a turbine was used, I was thinking of a
thermopile in the flu.

Think sterling engine, before it condenses maybe.

On 11/07/2012 20:13, harry wrote:
On Jul 11, 7:21 pm, John Rumm wrote:
On 11/07/2012 17:08, Arfa Daily wrote:

http://m.dailymail.co.uk/money/inves...1/MIDAS-Will-f...

Anyone know anything about these, or the technology employed ? I dunno,
but it feels like one of those "If it seems too good to be true ... "
things. Or is it just another company jumping on the eco-bollox bandwagon ?

Sounds like a variation on the rent your roof scheme so that suppliers
of the kit can reap the rewards of feed in tariffs etc.

Problem is that is shifts yet more of our generation capacity to gas at
a time where they are bleating about carbon reduction.



You are missing the point.
The point is, it recovers otherwise wasted heat and generates
electricity at point of use so making the overall process very
efficient.

What wasted heat? Modern boilers are so efficient there is very little
waste heat. The flue exhaust temperature is typically under 60 degrees.
The laws of thermodynamics ought to tell you how much use that will be
for secondary generation.



--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

Yeah you don't get ought for nout as my granny used to say. A bit like care
aircon.

Brian

--
--
From the sofa of Brian Gaff -

Blind user, so no pictures please!
"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
PeterC wrote:
On Wed, 11 Jul 2012 17:08:26 +0100, Arfa Daily wrote:

http://m.dailymail.co.uk/money/inves...ix-shares.html

Anyone know anything about these, or the technology employed ? I dunno,
but it feels like one of those "If it seems too good to be true ... "
things. Or is it just another company jumping on the eco-bollox
bandwagon ?

Arfa

I did look at it to some extent but I probably don't use enough to cover
the
extra cost.
Also there's that voltage-reducing BS on the same site, so credibility is
very low.

what occurs to me is that if its generating electricity from gas in a
boiler it will be BLOODY EXPENSIVE electricity. Not for free at all.



--
To people who know nothing, anything is possible.
To people who know too much, it is a sad fact
that they know how little is really possible -
and how hard it is to achieve it.

On Jul 11, 9:56*pm, Rick Hughes
wrote:
On 11/07/2012 20:01, The Natural Philosopher wrote:





PeterC wrote:
On Wed, 11 Jul 2012 17:08:26 +0100, Arfa Daily wrote:

http://m.dailymail.co.uk/money/inves...1/MIDAS-Will-f....

Anyone know anything about these, or the technology employed ? I
dunno, but it feels like one of those "If it seems too good to be
true ... " things. Or is it just another company jumping on the
eco-bollox bandwagon ?

Arfa

I did look at it to some extent but I probably don't use enough to
cover the
extra cost.
Also there's that voltage-reducing BS on the same site, so credibility is
very low.

what occurs to me is that if its generating electricity from gas in a
boiler it will be BLOODY EXPENSIVE electricity. Not for free at all.

The home power station units raised a lot of press a couple of years
back ... don't know of anyone who has fitted one though.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Me neither. But it may be the thing to come.

On Jul 11, 10:04*pm, Tim Streater wrote:
In article
,





*harry wrote:
On Jul 11, 7:21*pm, John Rumm wrote:
On 11/07/2012 17:08, Arfa Daily wrote:

http://m.dailymail.co.uk/money/inves...1/MIDAS-Will-f...

Anyone know anything about these, or the technology employed ? I dunno,
but it feels like one of those "If it seems too good to be true ... "
things. Or is it just another company jumping on the eco-bollox bandwagon

Sounds like a variation on the rent your roof scheme so that suppliers
of the kit can reap the rewards of feed in tariffs etc.

Problem is that is shifts yet more of our generation capacity to gas at
a time where they are bleating about carbon reduction.
You are missing the point.
The point is, it recovers otherwise wasted heat and generates
electricity at point of use so making the overall process very
efficient.

Which waste heat is that then, harry? My new boiler is condensing. That
means the exhaust gases are well below 100C, AIUI.

Power stations already have, and have had for a long time, high and low
pressure turbines, so that after the high pressure steam has expanded
and cooled once, the trick is repeated at a lower temp and pressure. Sad
thing is, that as temp and pressure get lower, turbine size needed gets
bigger.

I wonder how big a turbine I'd need hanging off my oil boiler flue so
that the ****er actually *rotated*.

Any engineers here care to hazard a guess?



Tch.
When electricity is generated from fossil fuel there is huge waste
heat, normally dumped at central power stations.
THAT waste heat.
The whole thing about this device is making expensive electricity out
of cheap gas. And using the waste heat.

Steam turbines are onlyone way of generating electricity, there are
gas turbines and ICE.

On Jul 11, 10:21*pm, "Gazz" wrote:
"The Natural Philosopher"

Anyone know anything about these, or the technology employed ? I dunno,
but
it feels like one of those "If it seems too good to be true ... "
things. Or
is it just another company jumping on the eco-bollox bandwagon ?

About 10 or more years ago, a devise came onto the motorhome market, whisper
gen or something like that,
was a small plastic case you mounted on the chassis rails, a bit larger than
a shoe box for boots,

inside was a 50cc 2 stroke engine, coupled directly to an electric motor,

connection were, lpg for the fuel, the 2 stroke oil line.. engine ran at a
very very low oil to fuel ratio and 'had' to use their special oil they
said, then a few 3 inch or so pipes, one of them was the engines exhaust, it
had a very well silenced silencer, the other hoses were cold air in, and
warm/hot air out, and an electrical connection,

A pretty controll box inside the motorhome was used to control it,

it used the motor to start the engine, then the engine drove the motor and
produced upto 20 amps at 12 volts DC to charge the batteries, and the waste
heat from the engine running was piped into the motorhomes blown air heating
ducts, a diverter valve let it blow the hot air out under the vehicle in
summer,

I saw them when they first came onto the market, almost every motorhome
showroom had one on it's display stand, hooked up ready to go, you just
flipped the switch to on, and heard a little whine, then a very faint soung
of the engine running, it was amaingly quiet... and this was inside the
showroom building.

fairly impressive most people thought, then they read the specs... a 20 amp
max output wasnt that great, mind still more than most factory installed
chargers back then, but then you saw the price tag and walked away shaking
your head.

cant recall if it was 3 or 5 grand plus fitting, but for what it was it was
bloody expensive, i never met anyone who had one fitted, and i don't think
they are around anymore,

most people went and bought those 50 quid chinkie 2 stroke gennies instead
(and let the magic smoke out of the inteligent and expensive chargers in the
motorhome

That is exactly the sort of thing this is, only running probably
working via a grid link inverter. As you say a complex device, hard to
see the economics.
Hard to see how they can make them so cheap.

On Jul 11, 10:33*pm, Andy Burns wrote:
Graham. wrote:
It didn't occur to me that a turbine was used, I was thinking of a
thermopile in the flu.

Seems to be a scroll-compressor run in reverse, they also sell UPSes,
which are based on an air reservoir also driving a scroll-compressor in
reverse.

I have never heard of an ICE scroll engine. It has to be something
super quiet.

There economics page is here.
http://www.genlec.com/homeowner/feed-in-tariff.html
Reckons to save £555/year

On Jul 11, 10:47*pm, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:
harry wrote:
On Jul 11, 7:21 pm, John Rumm wrote:
On 11/07/2012 17:08, Arfa Daily wrote:

http://m.dailymail.co.uk/money/inves...1/MIDAS-Will-f....
Anyone know anything about these, or the technology employed ? I dunno,
but it feels like one of those "If it seems too good to be true ... "
things. Or is it just another company jumping on the eco-bollox bandwagon ?
Sounds like a variation on the rent your roof scheme so that suppliers
of the kit can reap the rewards of feed in tariffs etc.

Problem is that is shifts yet more of our generation capacity to gas at
a time where they are bleating about carbon reduction.

You are missing the point.
The point is, it recovers otherwise wasted heat and generates
electricity at point of use so making the overall process very
efficient.
It bridges the gap left by PV electricity, ieby night.

There is a plan you know. Beyond TurNiP's comprehension.

liek the plan to invade afghanistan and Iraq one supposes.

The problem is, it can't generate electricity without generating heat.

Gas has only one fifth the carbon of coal. *There MAY be a lot of
shale gas under our feet.

so what? its still a stupid inefficient way to burn it
--
To people who know nothing, anything is possible.
To people who know too much, it is a sad fact
that they know how little is really possible -
and how hard it is to achieve it.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

You really are a ****wit aren't you?

On Jul 12, 12:06*am, John Rumm wrote:
On 11/07/2012 20:13, harry wrote:





On Jul 11, 7:21 pm, John Rumm wrote:
On 11/07/2012 17:08, Arfa Daily wrote:

http://m.dailymail.co.uk/money/inves...1/MIDAS-Will-f....

Anyone know anything about these, or the technology employed ? I dunno,
but it feels like one of those "If it seems too good to be true ... "
things. Or is it just another company jumping on the eco-bollox bandwagon ?

Sounds like a variation on the rent your roof scheme so that suppliers
of the kit can reap the rewards of feed in tariffs etc.

Problem is that is shifts yet more of our generation capacity to gas at
a time where they are bleating about carbon reduction.

You are missing the point.
The point is, it recovers otherwise wasted heat and generates
electricity at point of use so making the overall process very
efficient.

What wasted heat? Modern boilers are so efficient there is very little
waste heat. The flue exhaust temperature is typically under 60 degrees.
The laws of thermodynamics ought to tell you how much use that will be
for secondary generation.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| * * * * *Internode Ltd - *http://www.internode.co.uk* * * * * *|
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| * * * *John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk * * * * * * *|
\================================================= ================/- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

You still don't get it?
It is about converting cheap gas to expensive electricty in the home
and using the left over heat (Normally waste) to heat the home..
Try to keep up

harry wrote:

Andy Burns wrote:

Seems to be a scroll-compressor run in reverse, they also sell UPSes,
which are based on an air reservoir also driving a scroll-compressor in
reverse.

I have never heard of an ICE scroll engine. It has to be something
super quiet.

Certainly other examples on U-bend aren't quiet.

There economics page is here.
http://www.genlec.com/homeowner/feed-in-tariff.html

The technology overview is here
http://www.genlec.com/products/Technology.html

Reckons to save £555/year

It'll be a marketing bollox number, so hardly worth mentioning.

harry wrote:

It is about converting cheap gas to expensive electricty in the home
and using the left over heat (Normally waste) to heat the home..

Yes, it's not using waste heat from the boiler flue, it's effectively a
parasite getting first dibs on the hot water output from the boiler
before it goes off to be used for heating, so ...

They fit you a boiler free (yours after 5 years)

You pay for the gas (nice of you to fund the additional fuel for their
distributed fleet of generators)

They claim the 10p/kWh FIT (for 5 years)

Since you already pay for an annual service on your old combi, you won't
mind paying to service their new boiler for them will you? Small network
of approved installers/maintainers = lack of cheap servicing.

After 5 years, they've bought the yacht sold the business to the big
boys, the wool gets pulled from people's eyes and they are left
owning/running a CHP unit they would probably not have chosen in the
first place, it it hadn't been free.

"harry" wrote in message
...
On Jul 11, 9:56 pm, Rick Hughes
wrote:
On 11/07/2012 20:01, The Natural Philosopher wrote:





PeterC wrote:
On Wed, 11 Jul 2012 17:08:26 +0100, Arfa Daily wrote:

http://m.dailymail.co.uk/money/inves...1/MIDAS-Will-f...

Anyone know anything about these, or the technology employed ? I
dunno, but it feels like one of those "If it seems too good to be
true ... " things. Or is it just another company jumping on the
eco-bollox bandwagon ?

Arfa

I did look at it to some extent but I probably don't use enough to
cover the
extra cost.
Also there's that voltage-reducing BS on the same site, so credibility
is
very low.

what occurs to me is that if its generating electricity from gas in a
boiler it will be BLOODY EXPENSIVE electricity. Not for free at all.

The home power station units raised a lot of press a couple of
years back ... don't know of anyone who has fitted one though.

Me neither. But it may be the thing to come.

Not a chance. Essentially because **** all boilers generate much waste heat
anymore.

harry wrote:

Try to keep up

You are DrDrivel AICMFP.

Scott

"Arfa Daily" wrote in message
...
http://m.dailymail.co.uk/money/inves...ix-shares.html

Anyone know anything about these, or the technology employed ? I dunno,
but it feels like one of those "If it seems too good to be true ... "
things. Or is it just another company jumping on the eco-bollox bandwagon
?


General priciples discussed a while back here
https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=...-y/7W2oLZE-rII

--
No plan survives contact with the enemy.
[Not even bunny]

Helmuth von Moltke the Elder

(\__/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")

harry wrote:


Me neither. But it may be the thing to come.

The only think likely to come round here harry is you, if you keep on
tossing.

--
To people who know nothing, anything is possible.
To people who know too much, it is a sad fact
that they know how little is really possible -
and how hard it is to achieve it.

harry wrote:


Tch.
When electricity is generated from fossil fuel there is huge waste
heat, normally dumped at central power stations.

Exactly so between 30 and 80%.

which is wasted in summer in a domestic situation because no one needs
the heat anyway.

And isn't enough in winter either without dumping surplus electricity
down the mains at huge cost to everyone who is forced to buy it.


--
To people who know nothing, anything is possible.
To people who know too much, it is a sad fact
that they know how little is really possible -
and how hard it is to achieve it.

General priciples discussed a while back here
https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=...-y/7W2oLZE-rII

People are looking at this the wrong way around. It's an electricity
generator first and foremost. The Carnot Cycle means that rather more
than half the energy used will be waste heat that is just dumped at the
power station or used to heat the nearest greenhouses. With this
mini-CHP, that waste heat will be used to heat your home. That's the
theory, anyway.

On Jul 12, 2:00*pm, GB wrote:
General priciples discussed a while back here
https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=...csearchin/uk.d....

People are looking at this the wrong way around. It's an electricity
generator first and foremost. The Carnot Cycle means that rather more
than half the energy used will be waste heat that is just dumped at the
power station or used to heat the nearest greenhouses. With this
mini-CHP, that waste heat will be used to heat your home. That's the
theory, anyway.

Nice that somebody can understand what's going on.
There are a lot of very uneducated people round here and it shows in
their replies..
CHP/Co-generation has been done economically on an industrial scale
for years. There have been numerous attempts to minaturise the
process, it will be interesting to see if this one works.
Theoretically there are enormous benefits.

I have been involved in the running of three CHP power stastions in
the past. Two on steam and one using gas engines. One was eighty
years old, so the idea is old hat. One had a steam turbine.

In article , The Natural Philosopher wrote:
a time where they are bleating about carbon reduction.

and when gas is more expensive than coal, which has moved gas out of the
top spot for electricity generation.

CHP would make more sense,. Nice coal boiler driving a steam turbine and
heat your home off what's left.

Right, that's why coal fired boilers are so much more popular than gas
for home heating.

On 12/07/2012 17:10, harry wrote:
On Jul 12, 2:00 pm, GB wrote:
General priciples discussed a while back here
https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=...csearchin/uk.d...

People are looking at this the wrong way around. It's an electricity
generator first and foremost. The Carnot Cycle means that rather more
than half the energy used will be waste heat that is just dumped at the
power station or used to heat the nearest greenhouses. With this
mini-CHP, that waste heat will be used to heat your home. That's the
theory, anyway.

Nice that somebody can understand what's going on.
There are a lot of very uneducated people round here and it shows in
their replies..

Harry, go have a look at the specs of some of these things so that you
understand what;s going on... Many are heating boilers first and
foremost, producing at most 1kW of electrical power from a stirling
engine of some form.

The one that started this thread claims "The target performance for the
Kingston appliance is to have an overall efficiency equivalent to a
high-efficiency condensing boiler and an electrical efficiency of 10%."

http://greentech.co.uk/energetix-lau...r-uk-homes-341

Converting gas into electricity at an efficiency of 10% does not sound
that impressive. It is unclear whether their claim of "overall
efficiency equivalent to a high-efficiency condensing boiler" includes
the lekky as well. If not the you might argue its worth having since its
"free", but as with most free lunches, you can end up spending money
that its hard to recoup on the plate and cutlery.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 12/07/2012 17:10, harry wrote:
On Jul 12, 2:00 pm, GB wrote:
General priciples discussed a while back here
https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=...csearchin/uk.d...

People are looking at this the wrong way around. It's an electricity
generator first and foremost. The Carnot Cycle means that rather more
than half the energy used will be waste heat that is just dumped at the
power station or used to heat the nearest greenhouses. With this
mini-CHP, that waste heat will be used to heat your home. That's the
theory, anyway.

Nice that somebody can understand what's going on.
There are a lot of very uneducated people round here and it shows in
their replies..
CHP/Co-generation has been done economically on an industrial scale
for years. There have been numerous attempts to minaturise the
process, it will be interesting to see if this one works.
Theoretically there are enormous benefits.

I have been involved in the running of three CHP power stastions in
the past. Two on steam and one using gas engines. One was eighty
years old, so the idea is old hat. One had a steam turbine.


The government's very generous incentives (using your and my money) make
this a very interesting proposition. The feed-in tariff is he
http://www.fitariffs.co.uk/eligible/levels/ It shows they pay 11p per
KWh for a maximum of 2KW.

So, if using a mini-CHP I generate a steady 2KW of electricity that I
feed into the grid, I get paid 22p per hour. It will take around 5KW of
gas to do this, and depending on tariff this will cost very roughly
around 22p per hour! So, the gas is paid for by the feed in tariff. Of
course, there is 3KW of waste heat. Some of that will go up the chimney,
but the rest will be available to heat my house (for nothing).

On 12/07/2012 19:00, John Rumm wrote:
On 12/07/2012 17:10, harry wrote:
On Jul 12, 2:00 pm, GB wrote:
General priciples discussed a while back here
https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=...csearchin/uk.d...


People are looking at this the wrong way around. It's an electricity
generator first and foremost. The Carnot Cycle means that rather more
than half the energy used will be waste heat that is just dumped at the
power station or used to heat the nearest greenhouses. With this
mini-CHP, that waste heat will be used to heat your home. That's the
theory, anyway.

Nice that somebody can understand what's going on.
There are a lot of very uneducated people round here and it shows in
their replies..

Harry, go have a look at the specs of some of these things so that you
understand what;s going on... Many are heating boilers first and
foremost, producing at most 1kW of electrical power from a stirling
engine of some form.

The one that started this thread claims "The target performance for the
Kingston appliance is to have an overall efficiency equivalent to a
high-efficiency condensing boiler and an electrical efficiency of 10%."

http://greentech.co.uk/energetix-lau...r-uk-homes-341

Converting gas into electricity at an efficiency of 10% does not sound
that impressive. It is unclear whether their claim of "overall
efficiency equivalent to a high-efficiency condensing boiler" includes
the lekky as well. If not the you might argue its worth having since its
"free", but as with most free lunches, you can end up spending money
that its hard to recoup on the plate and cutlery.



I think they must mean that you convert 10% of the gas input into
electricity, as well as having the same heat output as from a standard
boiler.

I agree with you that the practice is probably far from perfect, but you
can't really argue with the theory, especially given the ridiculously
generous FIT of 11p/KWh.

I haven't been able to find out how much these appliances cost - I
expect a fortune.

BTW, what happens if there's a power cut? You can't go on supplying the
grid, or you'll electrocute the poor technician at the local substation
trying to fix the problem. Or should that be ?