In message
,
harry writes
On Jul 12, 10:18*pm, geoff wrote:
In message , Arfa Daily
writes

http://m.dailymail.co.uk/money/inves...IDAS-Will-free
-boiler-power-heat-Energetix-shares.html

Anyone know anything about these, or the technology employed ? I dunno,
but it feels like one of those "If it seems too good to be true ... "
things. Or is it just another company jumping on the eco-bollox
bandwagon ?

Effectively getting your electricity for free ?

I don't think so

--
geoff

Tch, You are a dope. Getting electricity for the price of gas.

Yeah - at a very inefficient rate


--
geoff

harry wrote:
On Jul 13, 5:32 pm, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:
Arfa Daily wrote:

"whisky-dave" wrote in message
...
On Wednesday, July 11, 2012 5:08:26 PM UTC+1, Arfa Daily wrote:
http://m.dailymail.co.uk/money/inves...1/MIDAS-Will-f...

Anyone know anything about these, or the technology employed ? I
dunno, but
it feels like one of those "If it seems too good to be true ...
" things. Or
is it just another company jumping on the eco-bollox bandwagon ?

Arfa

How does the bioler generate electricity ?

Well, that's what I was asking, and if you follow the whole thread,
there's been several references to a URL where it is all explained. I
can't be fagged to go and find it for you, but it won't take you long to
look. It's actually a bit backwards thinking of it as a boiler that
makes electricity as a waste heat-recycling byproduct of it's CH / DHW
function. Rather, it's a gas-powered electricity generator, that
produces enough waste and recoverable heat from *that* process, to allow
it to also heat your house. Theoretically, that is. How practical it
would actually be for the many different designs of house, varying
weather conditions around the country, and lots of other modifying
factors, is a bit of an unknown, at this point. Much like solar PVPs, a
lot of the 'savings' that would supposedly be reaped from the
installation of such a device, rely on the subsidised FIT model, and
I'm not sure just how sustainable that is going to be in both the
current economic, as well as political, climates. Add to this that
recent events in the MM global warming world would seem to indicate
that that little bubble may be close to bursting, and scales might start
falling from eyes, and the long-term non-viability of all the green
taxing and subsidising at the tax payers expense, might start to take on
a political life of its own ...

Arfa

It gets worse...

Consider the proposition that last centuries warming had little or
nothing to do with human activity or CO2 and in fact was mere
statistical fluctuations in a completely normal interglacial that is
likely to end..soon. Plunging us into several degrees colder temperatures.

Not only is every penny then spent on renewable energy wasted, it has
furthermore reduced our ability to run the country effectively in the
colder and wetter times ahead.

We have essentially ruined the nation to solve a non-existent problem,
with a technology that didn't work to solve it, anyway...

It doesn't get worse than that. Well apart from harry, who profits by
this disaster.

--
To people who know nothing, anything is possible.
To people who know too much, it is a sad fact
that they know how little is really possible -
and how hard it is to achieve it.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Getting pretty hysterical TurNiP!
Can't understand what's going on in the world?
Ah well, dementia comes to many as they get old.

Most people don't want nuclear.

Most? Not so fast Kimosabe ..

"The YouGov survey [...] found nearly two thirds of Britons (63%) now
back the use of nuclear energy as part of the UK’s energy mix"

http://www.edfenergy.com/media-centre/press-news/support-for-nucleur-energy-bounces-back.shtml

Andy Burns wrote:
harry wrote:


Most people don't want nuclear.

Most? Not so fast Kimosabe ..

"The YouGov survey [...] found nearly two thirds of Britons (63%) now
back the use of nuclear energy as part of the UKs energy mix"

yes but those are Britons, not the people in harry's mind - or what
passes for it.



--
To people who know nothing, anything is possible.
To people who know too much, it is a sad fact
that they know how little is really possible -
and how hard it is to achieve it.

On 13/07/2012 08:54, harry wrote:
On Jul 12, 10:18 pm, geoff wrote:
In message , Arfa Daily
writes

http://m.dailymail.co.uk/money/inves...IDAS-Will-free
-boiler-power-heat-Energetix-shares.html

Anyone know anything about these, or the technology employed ? I dunno,
but it feels like one of those "If it seems too good to be true ... "
things. Or is it just another company jumping on the eco-bollox
bandwagon ?

Effectively getting your electricity for free ?

I don't think so

--
geoff

Tch, You are a dope. Getting electricity for the price of gas.

at ten times the price of gas I think you mean...

at 9kWh of gas per kWh of electricity... it only cost 4 times the price
of gas when you buy it from the national grid.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 13/07/2012 09:05, charles wrote:
In article , The Natural Philosopher
wrote:
Alan Braggins wrote:
In article , The Natural Philosopher
wrote:
a time where they are bleating about carbon reduction.

and when gas is more expensive than coal, which has moved gas out of
the top spot for electricity generation.

CHP would make more sense,. Nice coal boiler driving a steam turbine
and heat your home off what's left.

Right, that's why coal fired boilers are so much more popular than gas
for home heating.

we were talking about electricity generation, not home ehating. A coal
fired municipal generator whose waste heat is available to heat a block
of council flats for example. Done a lot in Denmark.

It was also done at Battersea Power station in London.

And given up, and replaced with a dedicated boiler. Makes more sense in
northern and eastern Europe, where you need decent heating for half the
year, and a lot more people are living in flats.

"harry" wrote in message
...

The boier runs on the exhaust from the engine. Not vice versa.

The boiler heats the fluid input to the engine, the fluid condenses and
heats the CH water.
There is a second stage in the boiler that further heats the CH water.

Make sure you use it for a low temp heating system so the condenser works
well and the boost isn't used much.

"GB" wrote in message
...

It gets worse...

Consider the proposition that last centuries warming had little or
nothing to do with human activity or CO2 and in fact was mere
statistical fluctuations in a completely normal interglacial that is
likely to end..soon. Plunging us into several degrees colder
temperatures.

Not only is every penny then spent on renewable energy wasted, it has
furthermore reduced our ability to run the country effectively in the
colder and wetter times ahead.

Just run that past me again. Are there unlimited oil reserves then?

Yes, if you grow the stuff.. its not very practical as you need too much
land.

What's wrong with say tidal electricity schemes?

Say silt.

"harry" wrote in message
...


What's wrong with hydro power?

Not enough of it,
in the wrong place,
may not work after the climates have changed.

TurNiP has dementia. He can't be reasoned with.

Probably true, but he is correct occasionally, something you should strive
for.

On 13/07/2012 08:53, harry wrote:
The boier runs on the exhaust from the engine. Not vice versa.

This turns out not to be the case.

http://www.genlec.com/homeowner/how.html

Andy

Tim Streater wrote:
In article
,
harry wrote:

On Jul 13, 6:00 pm, GB wrote:
It gets worse...

Consider the proposition that last centuries warming had little or
nothing to do with human activity or CO2 and in fact was mere
statistical fluctuations in a completely normal interglacial that is
likely to end..soon. Plunging us into several degrees colder
temperatures.

Not only is every penny then spent on renewable energy wasted, it has
furthermore reduced our ability to run the country effectively in the
colder and wetter times ahead.

Just run that past me again. Are there unlimited oil reserves then?
What's wrong with say tidal electricity schemes?

What's wrong with hydro power?
TurNiP has dementia. He can't be reasoned with.

Which mountains and valleys did you have in mind, harry boy, for hydro
power?

The mountioans in hos mind of course.

He thinks we will build and artficial lake 3000 feet in the air to
capture rain from an area the size of wales which of course will have to
be built up even higher.


--
To people who know nothing, anything is possible.
To people who know too much, it is a sad fact
that they know how little is really possible -
and how hard it is to achieve it.

Tim Streater wrote:
In article ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote:

harry wrote:
On Jul 13, 6:00 pm, GB wrote:
It gets worse...
Consider the proposition that last centuries warming had little or
nothing to do with human activity or CO2 and in fact was mere
statistical fluctuations in a completely normal interglacial that is
likely to end..soon. Plunging us into several degrees colder
temperatures.
Not only is every penny then spent on renewable energy wasted, it has
furthermore reduced our ability to run the country effectively in the
colder and wetter times ahead.
Just run that past me again. Are there unlimited oil reserves then?
What's wrong with say tidal electricity schemes?

What's wrong with hydro power?

in the context of te UK, there isnt enough of it and there is noweher
to put any mopre of subnstantial quantoty

TurNiP has dementia. He can't be reasoned with.

No, that's you harry. You actually claim to believe renewable energy
can make a cost effective contribution. That shows you either have
zero real understanding of engineering or physics, or are demented, or
are a SPIV and don't care that it doesn't work is totally antisocial
and threatens the countries future and that of future generations, as
well as being an environmental disaster.

Or, more likely, ISTM, he is just thick as **** in the neck of a bottle.

True.

--
To people who know nothing, anything is possible.
To people who know too much, it is a sad fact
that they know how little is really possible -
and how hard it is to achieve it.

"harry" wrote in message
...
The ratio of heat output to electricity is fixed. And that is the
problem. You can't make electricity without heat (loss). If you can
use this loss to heat the home, well fine, if you can't,it would have
to be dumped. That is obviously uneconomical.
So it boils down to, in warm weather. you can't/wouldn't want to be
running this device, the heat would have to be dumped somehow.

If you have an industrial situation where lots of hot water is needed
say, then these are the way to go. Eg old fashioned laundries.

The important thing is they are sized on the heat output, not the
electrical output.
Any electricity surplus can be exported but not heat of course.

So, if you had a well insulated house in Winter you could run this
thing in the evening, watch TV, do baking, heat the house and water &
export electricity by day when you might not be at home.

But in Summer what do you do with the heat?
Ah, you have your solar PV in Summer. Heh Heh.

So, yours is being installed next week, yes ? :-)
As a passive house, my house needs no form of central heating.


Come the ice age, Harry, come the ice age ... d;~}

Arfa

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
Arfa Daily wrote:


"whisky-dave" wrote in message
...
On Wednesday, July 11, 2012 5:08:26 PM UTC+1, Arfa Daily wrote:
http://m.dailymail.co.uk/money/inves...ix-shares.html

Anyone know anything about these, or the technology employed ? I dunno,
but
it feels like one of those "If it seems too good to be true ...
" things. Or
is it just another company jumping on the eco-bollox bandwagon ?

Arfa

How does the bioler generate electricity ?


Well, that's what I was asking, and if you follow the whole thread,
there's been several references to a URL where it is all explained. I
can't be fagged to go and find it for you, but it won't take you long to
look. It's actually a bit backwards thinking of it as a boiler that makes
electricity as a waste heat-recycling byproduct of it's CH / DHW
function. Rather, it's a gas-powered electricity generator, that produces
enough waste and recoverable heat from *that* process, to allow it to
also heat your house. Theoretically, that is. How practical it would
actually be for the many different designs of house, varying weather
conditions around the country, and lots of other modifying factors, is a
bit of an unknown, at this point. Much like solar PVPs, a lot of the
'savings' that would supposedly be reaped from the installation of such a
device, rely on the subsidised FIT model, and I'm not sure just how
sustainable that is going to be in both the current economic, as well as
political, climates. Add to this that recent events in the MM global
warming world would seem to indicate that that little bubble may be close
to bursting, and scales might start falling from eyes, and the long-term
non-viability of all the green taxing and subsidising at the tax payers
expense, might start to take on a political life of its own ...

Arfa

It gets worse...

Consider the proposition that last centuries warming had little or nothing
to do with human activity or CO2 and in fact was mere statistical
fluctuations in a completely normal interglacial that is likely to
end..soon. Plunging us into several degrees colder temperatures.

Not only is every penny then spent on renewable energy wasted, it has
furthermore reduced our ability to run the country effectively in the
colder and wetter times ahead.

We have essentially ruined the nation to solve a non-existent problem,
with a technology that didn't work to solve it, anyway...

It doesn't get worse than that. Well apart from harry, who profits by this
disaster.




--
To people who know nothing, anything is possible.
To people who know too much, it is a sad fact
that they know how little is really possible -
and how hard it is to achieve it.

Nicely summarised ...

Arfa

snip


Most people don't want nuclear.

On what do you base that contention ? Any facts, figures ?


So it will be renewables and (shale) gas probably in the future.
Much more expensive so we all have to be efficient.
I make everythiing energywise I need on site.


Maybe *you* do, but you are in a vanishingly small minority of householders
(and businesses) able to do that. As energy prices continue to soar to the
point where it becomes impossible for the average Joe to keep up, I think
that you will find many more people prepared to look again at just what
nuclear could do to address the country's need to cheapen its energy
production, and decouple it from foreign supply chains, with the potential
for disaster which that sorry state of affairs holds ...

Arfa

Arfa Daily wrote

Most people don't want nuclear.

On what do you base that contention ? Any facts, figures ?

So it will be renewables and (shale) gas probably in the future.
Much more expensive so we all have to be efficient.
I make everythiing energywise I need on site.

Maybe *you* do, but you are in a vanishingly small minority of
householders (and businesses) able to do that. As energy prices continue
to soar to the point where it becomes impossible for the average Joe to
keep up,

They won't with the energy for households.

I think that you will find many more people prepared to look again at just
what nuclear could do to address the country's need to cheapen its energy
production,

That's already happening.

and decouple it from foreign supply chains, with the potential for
disaster which that sorry state of affairs holds ...

There is no potential for disaster with either nuclear or coal or with gas
either.

Arfa Daily wrote:

snip


Most people don't want nuclear.

On what do you base that contention ? Any facts, figures ?


So it will be renewables and (shale) gas probably in the future.
Much more expensive so we all have to be efficient.
I make everythiing energywise I need on site.


Maybe *you* do, but you are in a vanishingly small minority of
householders (and businesses) able to do that. As energy prices continue
to soar to the point where it becomes impossible for the average Joe to
keep up, I think that you will find many more people prepared to look
again at just what nuclear could do to address the country's need to
cheapen its energy production, and decouple it from foreign supply
chains, with the potential for disaster which that sorry state of
affairs holds ...

Had a long chat with UKIP energy man Roger Helmer last night. He says
coal and shale.


Of which there is lots. I say nuclear, because there may be lots of coal
and shale but its not getting any cheaper.

Still we all agreed that renewables are by and large total pants.



Arfa


--
To people who know nothing, anything is possible.
To people who know too much, it is a sad fact
that they know how little is really possible -
and how hard it is to achieve it.

On Jul 13, 8:03*pm, geoff wrote:
In message
,
harry writes





On Jul 12, 10:18*pm, geoff wrote:
In message , Arfa Daily
writes

http://m.dailymail.co.uk/money/inves...IDAS-Will-free
-boiler-power-heat-Energetix-shares.html

Anyone know anything about these, or the technology employed ? I dunno,
but it feels like one of those "If it seems too good to be true ... "
things. Or is it just another company jumping on the eco-bollox
bandwagon ?

Effectively getting your electricity for free ?

I don't think so

--
geoff

Tch, You are a dope. *Getting electricity for the price of gas.

Yeah - at a very inefficient rate

--
geoff- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Tch. You still don't get it?
The remaining heat warms your house. Almost nothing is lost and you
get cheaper elctrictiy.

On Jul 13, 8:22*pm, Andy Burns wrote:
harry wrote:
On Jul 13, 5:32 pm, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:
Arfa Daily wrote:

"whisky-dave" wrote in message
...
On Wednesday, July 11, 2012 5:08:26 PM UTC+1, Arfa Daily wrote:
http://m.dailymail.co.uk/money/inves...1/MIDAS-Will-f...

Anyone know anything about these, or the technology employed ? I
dunno, but
it feels like one of those "If it seems too good to be true ....
" things. Or
is it just another company jumping on the eco-bollox bandwagon ?

Arfa

How does the bioler generate electricity ?

Well, that's what I was asking, and if you follow the whole thread,
there's been several references to a URL where it is all explained. I
can't be fagged to go and find it for you, but it won't take you long to
look. It's actually a bit backwards thinking of it as a boiler that
makes electricity as a waste heat-recycling byproduct of it's CH / DHW
function. Rather, it's a gas-powered electricity generator, that
produces enough waste and recoverable heat from *that* process, to allow
it to also heat your house. Theoretically, that is. How practical it
would actually be for the many different designs of house, varying
weather conditions around the country, and lots of other modifying
factors, is a bit of an unknown, at this point. Much like solar PVPs, a
lot of the 'savings' that would supposedly be reaped from the
installation of such a device, rely on the subsidised *FIT model, and
I'm not sure just how sustainable that is going to be in both the
current economic, as well as political, climates. Add to this that
recent events in the MM *global warming world would seem to indicate
that that little bubble may be close to bursting, and scales might start
falling from eyes, and the long-term non-viability of all the green
taxing and subsidising at the tax payers expense, might start to take on
a political life of its own ...

Arfa

It gets worse...

Consider the proposition that last centuries warming had little or
nothing to do with human activity or CO2 and in fact was mere
statistical fluctuations in a completely normal interglacial that is
likely to end..soon. Plunging us into several degrees colder temperatures.

Not only is every penny then spent on renewable energy wasted, it has
furthermore reduced our ability to run the country effectively in the
colder and wetter times ahead.

We have essentially ruined the nation to solve a non-existent problem,
with a technology that didn't work to solve it, anyway...

It doesn't get worse than that. Well apart from harry, who profits by
this disaster.

--
To people who know nothing, anything is possible.
To people who know too much, it is a sad fact
that they know how little is really possible -
and how hard it is to achieve it.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Getting pretty hysterical TurNiP!
Can't understand what's going on in the world?
Ah well, dementia comes to many as they get old.

Most people don't want nuclear.

Most? *Not so fast Kimosabe ..

"The YouGov survey [...] found nearly two thirds of Britons (63%) now
back the use of nuclear energy as part of the UK’s energy mix"

http://www.edfenergy.com/media-centre/press-news/support-for-nucleur-...- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Well I saw a recent one said 70% didn't want it.
Depends how you frame the question and who you ask anyway.

On Jul 13, 9:06*pm, John Rumm wrote:
On 13/07/2012 08:54, harry wrote:





On Jul 12, 10:18 pm, geoff wrote:
In message , Arfa Daily
writes

http://m.dailymail.co.uk/money/inves...IDAS-Will-free
-boiler-power-heat-Energetix-shares.html

Anyone know anything about these, or the technology employed ? I dunno,
but it feels like one of those "If it seems too good to be true ... "
things. Or is it just another company jumping on the eco-bollox
bandwagon ?

Effectively getting your electricity for free ?

I don't think so

--
geoff

Tch, You are a dope. *Getting electricity for the price of gas.

at ten times the price of gas I think you mean...

at 9kWh of gas per kWh of electricity... it only cost 4 times the price
of gas when you buy it from the national grid.

--
Cheers,

-

Jeez.
The remaining heat is not wasted, it goes to heat your home/hot water.
The problem arises when you have no use for that heat, ie Summer.

On Jul 13, 9:37*pm, "dennis@home"
wrote:
"harry" wrote in message

...

The boier runs on the exhaust from the engine. Not vice versa.

The boiler heats the fluid input to the engine, the fluid condenses and
heats the CH water.
There is a second stage in the boiler that further heats the CH water.

Make sure you use it for a low temp heating system so the condenser works
well and the boost isn't used much.

You ARE in Lala land Denise.

On Jul 13, 9:47*pm, Andy Champ wrote:
On 13/07/2012 08:53, harry wrote:

* The boier runs on the exhaust from the engine. Not vice versa.

This turns out not to be the case.

http://www.genlec.com/homeowner/how.html

Andy

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cogeneration

On Jul 13, 10:48*pm, Tim Streater wrote:
In article ,

*GB wrote:
It gets worse...

Consider the proposition that last centuries warming had little or
nothing to do with human activity or CO2 and in fact was mere
statistical fluctuations in a completely normal interglacial that is
likely to end..soon. Plunging us into several degrees colder temperatures.

Not only is every penny then spent on renewable energy wasted, it has
furthermore reduced our ability to run the country effectively in the
colder and wetter times ahead.

Just run that past me again. Are there unlimited oil reserves then?
What's wrong with say tidal electricity schemes?

None of these renewables can supply more than 5% or so of our
requirements. Unless you put 3 turbines of every sq mile of the UK,
including cities. Or dedicate the whole of Wales to biofuel crops. Or
damn up some of the larger the Welsh valleys to act as pumped storage.

Good luck with any of these.

Tidal power is the next big one.

On Jul 13, 10:49*pm, Tim Streater wrote:
In article
,





*harry wrote:
On Jul 13, 6:00*pm, GB wrote:
It gets worse...

Consider the proposition that last centuries warming had little or
nothing to do with human activity or CO2 and in fact was mere
statistical fluctuations in a completely normal interglacial that is
likely to end..soon. Plunging us into several degrees colder temperatures.

Not only is every penny then spent on renewable energy wasted, it has
furthermore reduced our ability to run the country effectively in the
colder and wetter times ahead.

Just run that past me again. Are there unlimited oil reserves then?
What's wrong with say tidal electricity schemes?
What's wrong with hydro power?
TurNiP has dementia. *He can't be reasoned with.

Which mountains and valleys did you have in mind, harry boy, for hydro
power?

--
Tim

There are lots of potential sites for micro hydro. Many where water
mills stood in the past. Many are now being utilised. We need as much
diversity as possible.

On Jul 13, 10:50*pm, Tim Streater wrote:
In article ,
*The Natural Philosopher wrote:





harry wrote:
On Jul 13, 6:00 pm, GB wrote:
It gets worse...
Consider the proposition that last centuries warming had little or
nothing to do with human activity or CO2 and in fact was mere
statistical fluctuations in a completely normal interglacial that is
likely to end..soon. Plunging us into several degrees colder temperatures.
Not only is every penny then spent on renewable energy wasted, it has
furthermore reduced our ability to run the country effectively in the
colder and wetter times ahead.
Just run that past me again. Are there unlimited oil reserves then?
What's wrong with say tidal electricity schemes?
What's wrong with hydro power?

in the context of te UK, there isnt enough of it and there is noweher to
put any mopre *of subnstantial quantoty

TurNiP has dementia. *He can't be reasoned with.

No, that's you harry. You actually claim to believe renewable energy can
make a cost effective contribution. That shows you either have zero real
understanding of engineering or physics, or are demented, or are a SPIV
and don't care that it doesn't work is totally antisocial and threatens
the countries future and that of future generations, as well as being an
environmental disaster.

Or, more likely, ISTM, he is just thick as **** in the neck of a bottle.

--
Tim

"That excessive bail ought not to be required, nor excessive fines imposed,
nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted" *-- *Bill of Rights 1689- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

You really are dense. Comes from contemplating your navel for too
long.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renewab...rgy_in_Germany

And hey don't have a fraction of the potential for tidal and wind
power that we have.

On Jul 14, 1:44*am, "Arfa Daily" wrote:
"harry" wrote in message

...





The ratio of heat output to electricity is fixed. *And that is the
problem. *You can't make electricity without heat (loss). *If you can
use this loss to heat the home, well fine, if you can't,it would have
to be dumped. *That is obviously uneconomical.
So it boils down to, in warm weather. you can't/wouldn't want to be
running this device, the heat would have to be dumped somehow.

If you have an industrial situation where lots of hot water is needed
say, then these are the way to go. Eg old fashioned laundries.

The important thing is they are sized on the heat output, not the
electrical output.
Any *electricity surplus can be exported but not heat of course.

So, if you had a well insulated house in Winter you could run this
thing in the evening, watch TV, do baking, heat the house and water &
export electricity by day when you might not be at home.

But in Summer what do you do with the heat?
Ah, you have your solar PV in Summer. *Heh Heh.

So, yours is being installed next week, yes ? * *:-)
As a passive house, my house needs no form of central heating.

Come the ice age, Harry, come the ice age ... * * *d;~}

Arfa- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

My house can defeat any level of cold. ( I have 600mm of insulation
and quadruple glazing.)
Wind is another matter, I still have a few draught issues to attend to
there.

On Jul 14, 1:47*am, "Arfa Daily" wrote:
"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in ...





Arfa Daily wrote:

"whisky-dave" wrote in message
...
On Wednesday, July 11, 2012 5:08:26 PM UTC+1, Arfa Daily wrote:
http://m.dailymail.co.uk/money/inves...1/MIDAS-Will-f....

Anyone know anything about these, or the technology employed ? I dunno,
but
it feels like one of those "If it seems too good to be true ...
" things. Or
is it just another company jumping on the eco-bollox bandwagon ?

Arfa

How does the bioler generate electricity ?

Well, that's what I was asking, and if you follow the whole thread,
there's been several references to a URL where it is all explained. I
can't be fagged to go and find it for you, but it won't take you long to
look. It's actually a bit backwards thinking of it as a boiler that makes
electricity as a waste heat-recycling byproduct of it's CH / DHW
function. Rather, it's a gas-powered electricity generator, that produces
enough waste and recoverable heat from *that* process, to allow it to
also heat your house. Theoretically, that is. How practical it would
actually be for the many different designs of house, varying weather
conditions around the country, and lots of other modifying factors, is a
bit of an unknown, at this point. Much like solar PVPs, a lot of the
'savings' that would supposedly be reaped from the installation of such a
device, rely on the subsidised *FIT model, and I'm not sure just how
sustainable that is going to be in both the current economic, as well as
political, climates. Add to this that recent events in the MM *global
warming world would seem to indicate that that little bubble may be close
to bursting, and scales might start falling from eyes, and the long-term
non-viability of all the green taxing and subsidising at the tax payers
expense, might start to take on a political life of its own ...

Arfa

It gets worse...

Consider the proposition that last centuries warming had little or nothing
to do with human activity or CO2 and in fact was mere statistical
fluctuations in a completely normal interglacial that is likely to
end..soon. Plunging us into several degrees colder temperatures.

Not only is every penny then spent on renewable energy wasted, it has
furthermore reduced our ability to run the country effectively in the
colder and wetter times ahead.

We have essentially ruined the nation to solve a non-existent problem,
with a technology that didn't work to solve it, anyway...

It doesn't get worse than that. Well apart from harry, who profits by this
disaster.

--
To people who know nothing, anything is possible.
To people who know too much, it is a sad fact
that they know how little is really possible -
and how hard it is to achieve it.

Nicely summarised ...


Joining the half wits brigade?
The thing about renewables is there is no fuel to buy.
TurNiP has not the faintest idea about economics or energy.

"Arfa Daily" wrote in message
...

snip


Most people don't want nuclear.

On what do you base that contention ? Any facts, figures ?


So it will be renewables and (shale) gas probably in the future.
Much more expensive so we all have to be efficient.
I make everythiing energywise I need on site.


Maybe *you* do, but you are in a vanishingly small minority of
householders (and businesses) able to do that. As energy prices continue
to soar to the point where it becomes impossible for the average Joe to
keep up, I think that you will find many more people prepared to look
again at just what nuclear could do to address the country's need to
cheapen its energy production, and decouple it from foreign supply chains,
with the potential for disaster which that sorry state of affairs holds
...

Arfa

What makes you think nuclear will be cheap?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_power#Economics

If you go the way I have gone, all this becomes irrelevant.

You need to take advantage of subsidies NOW and become energy independant.
Otherwise in the future you may well suffer *fuel poverty".
Not sit on your arse and whine like the old dope TurNiP.

I expect he's a socialist, expects a nanny state gov. to spend taxpayers
money.
High energy prices in the future are inevitable. So you need to GOYA and do
something about it.
Solar energy prices will seem cheap in five or six years from now.

harry wrote:

Jeez.
The remaining heat is not wasted, it goes to heat your home/hot water.
The problem arises when you have no use for that heat, ie Summer.

Surely if people still think of it as a central heating boiler, rather
than as a generator, or cash machine, they won't switch it on when they
don't want heat?

harry wrote:

On Jul 13, 8:22 pm, Andy Burns wrote:

"The YouGov survey [...] found nearly two thirds of Britons (63%) now
back the use of nuclear energy as part of the UK’s energy mix"

http://www.edfenergy.com/media-centre/press-news/support-for-nucleur-...

Well I saw a recent one said 70% didn't want it.
Depends how you frame the question and who you ask anyway.

Of course it does, but providing a reference would help ...

"harry" wrote in message
...
On Jul 13, 10:49 pm, Tim Streater wrote:
In article
,





harry wrote:
On Jul 13, 6:00 pm, GB wrote:
It gets worse...

Consider the proposition that last centuries warming had little or
nothing to do with human activity or CO2 and in fact was mere
statistical fluctuations in a completely normal interglacial that
is
likely to end..soon. Plunging us into several degrees colder
temperatures.

Not only is every penny then spent on renewable energy wasted, it
has
furthermore reduced our ability to run the country effectively in
the
colder and wetter times ahead.

Just run that past me again. Are there unlimited oil reserves then?
What's wrong with say tidal electricity schemes?
What's wrong with hydro power?
TurNiP has dementia. He can't be reasoned with.

Which mountains and valleys did you have in mind, harry boy, for hydro
power?

There are lots of potential sites for micro hydro. Many where
water mills stood in the past. Many are now being utilised.

**** all are in fact.

And there would be NONE if those parasites and thieves
like you weren't being paid terminally stupid FIT tariffs.

We need as much diversity as possible.

Nope. What we actually need is lots of nukes instead.

The result the frogs got proves that.

"harry" wrote in message
...
On Jul 14, 1:44 am, "Arfa Daily" wrote:
"harry" wrote in message

...





The ratio of heat output to electricity is fixed. And that is the
problem. You can't make electricity without heat (loss). If you
can
use this loss to heat the home, well fine, if you can't,it would
have
to be dumped. That is obviously uneconomical.
So it boils down to, in warm weather. you can't/wouldn't want to be
running this device, the heat would have to be dumped somehow.

If you have an industrial situation where lots of hot water is
needed
say, then these are the way to go. Eg old fashioned laundries.

The important thing is they are sized on the heat output, not the
electrical output.
Any electricity surplus can be exported but not heat of course.

So, if you had a well insulated house in Winter you could run this
thing in the evening, watch TV, do baking, heat the house and water
&
export electricity by day when you might not be at home.

But in Summer what do you do with the heat?
Ah, you have your solar PV in Summer. Heh Heh.

So, yours is being installed next week, yes ? :-)
As a passive house, my house needs no form of central heating.

Come the ice age, Harry, come the ice age ... d;~}

Arfa- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

My house can defeat any level of cold. ( I have 600mm of insulation
and quadruple glazing.)
Wind is another matter, I still have a few draught issues to attend to
there.


JHC !!! So how thick are the bloody walls then, with 2 foot of insulation
in them? Your window openings must look ridiculous. And any dwelling that's
sealed up so tight against the ingress of fresh, unprocessed air, can't be
healthy. I mean, there's 'doing your bit', and being just a bit silly about
it all ...

Arfa

"harry" wrote in message
...
On Jul 13, 10:48 pm, Tim Streater wrote:
In article ,

GB wrote:
It gets worse...

Consider the proposition that last centuries warming had little or
nothing to do with human activity or CO2 and in fact was mere
statistical fluctuations in a completely normal interglacial that is
likely to end..soon. Plunging us into several degrees colder
temperatures.

Not only is every penny then spent on renewable energy wasted, it has
furthermore reduced our ability to run the country effectively in the
colder and wetter times ahead.

Just run that past me again. Are there unlimited oil reserves then?
What's wrong with say tidal electricity schemes?

None of these renewables can supply more than 5% or so of our
requirements. Unless you put 3 turbines of every sq mile of the UK,
including cities. Or dedicate the whole of Wales to biofuel crops. Or
damn up some of the larger the Welsh valleys to act as pumped storage.

Good luck with any of these.

Tidal power is the next big one.


If it's hyped enough to make it actually look practical, what it will be is
the next big one for the eco-bollox power production companies to jump on.
People are beginning to suspect that the windmills that these companies are
wrecking the countryside and coastline with now, might not actually be
delivering this mythical abundant renewable and 'free' energy. So now would
be the time for them to switch to a different one, and start collecting a
bunch more government handouts for 'developing' and installing them. Build
the nukes, and be done with it ...

Arfa

"harry" wrote in message
...
On Jul 13, 8:22 pm, Andy Burns wrote:
harry wrote:
On Jul 13, 5:32 pm, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:
Arfa Daily wrote:

"whisky-dave" wrote in message
...
On Wednesday, July 11, 2012 5:08:26 PM UTC+1, Arfa Daily wrote:
http://m.dailymail.co.uk/money/inves...1/MIDAS-Will-f...

Anyone know anything about these, or the technology employed ? I
dunno, but
it feels like one of those "If it seems too good to be true
...
" things. Or
is it just another company jumping on the eco-bollox bandwagon ?

Arfa

How does the bioler generate electricity ?

Well, that's what I was asking, and if you follow the whole thread,
there's been several references to a URL where it is all explained. I
can't be fagged to go and find it for you, but it won't take you long
to
look. It's actually a bit backwards thinking of it as a boiler that
makes electricity as a waste heat-recycling byproduct of it's CH /
DHW
function. Rather, it's a gas-powered electricity generator, that
produces enough waste and recoverable heat from *that* process, to
allow
it to also heat your house. Theoretically, that is. How practical it
would actually be for the many different designs of house, varying
weather conditions around the country, and lots of other modifying
factors, is a bit of an unknown, at this point. Much like solar PVPs,
a
lot of the 'savings' that would supposedly be reaped from the
installation of such a device, rely on the subsidised FIT model, and
I'm not sure just how sustainable that is going to be in both the
current economic, as well as political, climates. Add to this that
recent events in the MM global warming world would seem to indicate
that that little bubble may be close to bursting, and scales might
start
falling from eyes, and the long-term non-viability of all the green
taxing and subsidising at the tax payers expense, might start to take
on
a political life of its own ...

Arfa

It gets worse...

Consider the proposition that last centuries warming had little or
nothing to do with human activity or CO2 and in fact was mere
statistical fluctuations in a completely normal interglacial that is
likely to end..soon. Plunging us into several degrees colder
temperatures.

Not only is every penny then spent on renewable energy wasted, it has
furthermore reduced our ability to run the country effectively in the
colder and wetter times ahead.

We have essentially ruined the nation to solve a non-existent problem,
with a technology that didn't work to solve it, anyway...

It doesn't get worse than that. Well apart from harry, who profits by
this disaster.

--
To people who know nothing, anything is possible.
To people who know too much, it is a sad fact
that they know how little is really possible -
and how hard it is to achieve it.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Getting pretty hysterical TurNiP!
Can't understand what's going on in the world?
Ah well, dementia comes to many as they get old.

Most people don't want nuclear.

Most? Not so fast Kimosabe ..

"The YouGov survey [...] found nearly two thirds of Britons (63%) now
back the use of nuclear energy as part of the UK’s energy mix"

http://www.edfenergy.com/media-centre/press-news/support-for-nucleur-...-
Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Well I saw a recent one said 70% didn't want it.
Depends how you frame the question and who you ask anyway.

Build one at the bottom of my road if you like. As long as it doesn't
actually overlook my house, I really don't care, as I suspect lots of people
wouldn't, if they understood the advantages. Come to that, you could build
them anywhere pretty and out of the way. They don't seem to have a problem
doing that with windmills ...

Arfa

Nicely summarised ...


Joining the half wits brigade?
The thing about renewables is there is no fuel to buy.
TurNiP has not the faintest idea about economics or energy.

Shakes head in sad disbelief ...

Arfa

On Sat, 14 Jul 2012 09:55:54 +0100, harryagain wrote:

What makes you think nuclear will be cheap?

It probably will be when oil is over $200/barrel.

Solar energy prices will seem cheap in five or six years from now.

May be "cheap" but still won't supply anything like the energy required
when it is required.

--
Cheers
Dave.

On Sat, 14 Jul 2012 01:13:55 -0700 (PDT), harry wrote:

Tch, You are a dope. *Getting electricity for the price of gas.

Yeah - at a very inefficient rate

Tch. You still don't get it?
The remaining heat warms your house. Almost nothing is lost and you
get cheaper electricity.

IIRC this company is looking for investment(*), they install the complex
boiler for free and keep the FiTs. This complex boiler becomes yours
after five years and thus presumably the maintenance of it. There is
likely to be only one company capable of maintaining it, so you can
imagine what that price will be. Five years? They don't have much faith
in the life of their product do they, bear in mind the FiT is 20/25
years.

And what is the efficiency gas - electricity, 10% so 1kWhr of electric
consumes 10kWhr of gas at what 5p/kWhr at current prices so is 50p/kWhr
and you don't even get the 10p/kWhr FiT...

Having looked at how the thing works it doesn't look to me like it's
using "waste" heat but tapping of a proportion as an when the boiler is
running. I'd like to see the gas consumption figures compared against an
A rated boiler running in condensing mode with both producing the same
amount of heat for heating/HW, over a range of outputs as most boiler
modulate these days.

(*) Note looking for investment not particularly trying to promote
anything "green", this is purely to make *them* money.

--
Cheers
Dave.

On Sat, 14 Jul 2012 11:03:44 +0100, Tim Streater wrote:

There are lots of potential sites for micro hydro. Many where water
mills stood in the past.

How much power can one of these produce, ...

Not a lot a few hundred watts at most. Not a big head and fairly low
flow. Say you have a wheel just ove 3m in dia and thus a 3m head and
17l/sec flow (or a tad over one IBC container full per minute) you get
around 300W of electricity...

http://www.reuk.co.uk/Calculation-of-Hydro-Power.htm

and what do you propose be done with it?

Like Haryy does with his PV. Use it your self but also "sell" it to the
grid at 4 times the market price.

--
Cheers
Dave.

"Arfa Daily" wrote in message
...


"harry" wrote in message
...
On Jul 14, 1:44 am, "Arfa Daily" wrote:
"harry" wrote in message

...





The ratio of heat output to electricity is fixed. And that is the
problem. You can't make electricity without heat (loss). If you
can
use this loss to heat the home, well fine, if you can't,it would
have
to be dumped. That is obviously uneconomical.
So it boils down to, in warm weather. you can't/wouldn't want to be
running this device, the heat would have to be dumped somehow.

If you have an industrial situation where lots of hot water is
needed
say, then these are the way to go. Eg old fashioned laundries.

The important thing is they are sized on the heat output, not the
electrical output.
Any electricity surplus can be exported but not heat of course.

So, if you had a well insulated house in Winter you could run this
thing in the evening, watch TV, do baking, heat the house and water
&
export electricity by day when you might not be at home.

But in Summer what do you do with the heat?
Ah, you have your solar PV in Summer. Heh Heh.

So, yours is being installed next week, yes ? :-)
As a passive house, my house needs no form of central heating.

Come the ice age, Harry, come the ice age ... d;~}

Arfa- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

My house can defeat any level of cold. ( I have 600mm of insulation
and quadruple glazing.)
Wind is another matter, I still have a few draught issues to attend to
there.

JHC !!! So how thick are the bloody walls then, with 2 foot of insulation
in them? Your window openings must look ridiculous.

They do, like in a block house.

And any dwelling that's sealed up so tight against the ingress of fresh,
unprocessed air, can't be healthy.

Trivial to provide enough ventilation to make it healthy.

I mean, there's 'doing your bit', and being just a bit silly about it all
...

Tim Streater wrote:

So an even better scam from the company's PoV, then. They pay
maintenance for 5 years and then get all the FITs with no costs to them
at all for 20 years.

No, the punter gets the FITs after the boiler becomes theirs

On 13/07/2012 18:32, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
GB wrote:

It gets worse...

Consider the proposition that last centuries warming had little or
nothing to do with human activity or CO2 and in fact was mere
statistical fluctuations in a completely normal interglacial that is
likely to end..soon. Plunging us into several degrees colder
temperatures.

Not only is every penny then spent on renewable energy wasted, it has
furthermore reduced our ability to run the country effectively in the
colder and wetter times ahead.

Just run that past me again. Are there unlimited oil reserves then?

There may well be. Ther are very large uranium/thorium/deuterium reserves.


I think we should leave a bit on the plate for coming generations,
rather than greedily gobbing it all ourselves.



What's wrong with say tidal electricity schemes?


same as is wrong with solar PV and wind. They are expensive ways to
achieve sod all carbon fuel savings.

I was thinking about the Severn barrage scheme that's been proposed
multiple times. Building it would stimulate the UK economy. It would
provide around 5% of all UK electricity needs for the next 100 years, by
which time it would be nicely silted up, thus providing 100's of square
miles of new agricultural land. The main thing that seems to be holding
it up is that it would disturb some wild-life.

It doesn't need to be justified economically purely on the value of
electricity generated. The point is to stimulate the economy and reduce
unemployment, so some of the money spent will reduce social security
payments, etc.