"John Rumm" wrote in message
...

Apple make some very nice kit,

I would hope so, most of it isn't designed by apple in the first place,
certainly not the original mac books.
they were designed by a special group in Intel. AFAIK they still do.


however in my view they spoil much of it by then behaving like childish
control freaks (some of their more rabbid users are a tad off-putting as
well[1]). It won't be long before you get iPhones where you can't even
change the SIM,

Well they "invented" the micro sim to try and do that.

and apple starts to try and squeeze the network operator out of the
customer relationship.

An approach which betrays their corporate mindset; they would much rather
sell you a shiny new toy, than have you persist with an existing one. Once
you have the toy, they believe the only right way to use it is their way.
Still, some folks obviously like being told how to think[1].

Well they drop support for older device each time they release a new version
of OSX.
Funny that M$ can reduce the hardware required to run windows with new
versions but apple increase it.

Look at siri(sp?), it runs on their servers, the foot print on the phone is
sod all, but it can't run on older phones.

I wouldn't buy anything apple unless there was nothing else to do the job, I
like to be able to reuse stuff not throw it away when apple decides its time
to upgrade.

John Rumm wrote:

An approach which betrays their corporate mindset; they would much
rather sell you a shiny new toy, than have you persist with an existing
one.

I guess this time around you missed the point that if a battery fails
within warranty, or even TBH quite a way outside of warranty an Apple
store will generally either fix for free or give a free replacement
computer that is equal to or even better than the one handed in for
repair.

BTW, if you want me appreciate your irony say something ironic. You may
want to check the meaning of the term "irony".

Anyway, enough of this, I really don't want to acrimoniously argue with
you, but by a similar token I don't like to see misinformation or lazy
stereotype being paraded as fact.

If you want to criticise the MBA, criticise it for its known problems,
not for some made-up FUD about the batteries, which I've never seen
serious complaint about. The points that are poor on the MBA are the
soldered in RAM, the SSD that's a also a tad difficult to upgrade and
the shortage of ports. However it's not unique in having these problems
and they are, in part, trade offs for size and/or reliability. At least
with Thunderbolt the MBA can be connected to a decent RAID if you wish.

On 12/07/2012 00:50, Steve Firth wrote:
John Rumm wrote:

An approach which betrays their corporate mindset; they would much
rather sell you a shiny new toy, than have you persist with an existing
one.

I guess this time around you missed the point that if a battery fails
within warranty, or even TBH quite a way outside of warranty an Apple
store will generally either fix for free or give a free replacement
computer that is equal to or even better than the one handed in for
repair.

While commendable, the former (in warranty) is something that most
makers will also do, and post warranty, something apple would find hard
not to do should they be pressed under to SOGA. Its not as if they can
claim its a low cost unit and you can't expect more than a years use
from etc.

BTW, if you want me appreciate your irony say something ironic. You may
want to check the meaning of the term "irony".

Anyway, enough of this, I really don't want to acrimoniously argue with
you, but by a similar token I don't like to see misinformation or lazy
stereotype being paraded as fact.

As with most stereotypes, while not universally applicable, there often
is or was an element of truth. You can't deny that when it comes to
making things with "no user serviceable" parts, Apple have form here.
See the teardown of the macbook pro linked above as an example.

However it goes deeper than just parts and hardware, much the same
applies to the way they control software and what can be distributed on
itunes. Now maintaining that level of control has pros and cons from a
users point of view - still you pays your money and take your choice.

If you want to criticise the MBA, criticise it for its known problems,

To be honest I was not focused on MBAs in particular... I offered it as
a suggestion to clarify I was talking about computers and not combined
harvesters.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

in 1144768 20120711 092340 Reentrant wrote:
On 10/07/2012 23:25, Steve Firth wrote:
John Rumm wrote:

At one time that was the relationship between IBM and Lenovo. However
IBM wanted, for some bizarre reason, to get out of the laptop and
printer business so they sold the IPR to Lenovo.

IBM's printer business (and several of my colleagues) went to Lexmark,
not Lenovo.

Specifically to the ex-IBM plant at Lexington, Kentucky.


Lenovo got IBM desktops as well as the ThinkPad range but that was many
years later.

--
Reentrant

in 1144818 20120711 123217 Steve Firth wrote:
Bob Eager wrote:
On Wed, 11 Jul 2012 08:42:54 +0100, Chris Bartram wrote:

On 10/07/2012 23:25, Steve Firth wrote:

At one time that was the relationship between IBM and Lenovo. However
IBM wanted, for some bizarre reason, to get out of the laptop and
printer business so they sold the IPR to Lenovo.


I always thought that was an odd idea, given that the Thinkpad range is
usually regarded well.

The real money is in consultancy, and that's where IBM are at these days.

Where they are rather **** at it.

Yep, only just managed to pass the 100 billion per annum mark!

John Rumm wrote:

On 12/07/2012 00:50, Steve Firth wrote:
John Rumm wrote:

An approach which betrays their corporate mindset; they would much
rather sell you a shiny new toy, than have you persist with an existing
one.

I guess this time around you missed the point that if a battery fails
within warranty, or even TBH quite a way outside of warranty an Apple
store will generally either fix for free or give a free replacement
computer that is equal to or even better than the one handed in for
repair.

While commendable, the former (in warranty) is something that most
makers will also do,

That is not my experience. The painless manner in which Apple handle the
event of a failure of their kit is IMO exemplary. The Apple Store and
John Lewis are located close to each other in the closes local "shopping
mall" I can't find much difference in approach between the two.

Other suppliers have tended to approach the matter by firstly trying to
claim that the customer must be a liar and a thief and attempting to
avoid legal responsibility. I have found suppliers such as Dell and HP
particularly keen to avoid paying for repairs *in* warranty and
impossible to persuade to correct consequences of manufacturing faults
out of warranty.

and post warranty, something apple would find hard
not to do should they be pressed under to SOGA. Its not as if they can
claim its a low cost unit and you can't expect more than a years use
from etc.

Are Apple the only makers of laptops in that price range? Try getting
Sony to replace a failed VAIO just out of warranty, for example.

BTW, if you want me appreciate your irony say something ironic. You may
want to check the meaning of the term "irony".

Anyway, enough of this, I really don't want to acrimoniously argue with
you, but by a similar token I don't like to see misinformation or lazy
stereotype being paraded as fact.

As with most stereotypes, while not universally applicable, there often
is or was an element of truth. You can't deny that when it comes to
making things with "no user serviceable" parts, Apple have form here.
See the teardown of the macbook pro linked above as an example.

I've repaired MacBooks in the past - it's no worse than working on, say
Dell or Sony laptops. I think you exaggerate the potential for problems
as a consequence of the design of the MacBook.

BTW, no comment on the Mac Pro? It's the easiest computer to work on
that I have ever seen, also the iMac and the Mac Mini are a joy to
upgrade. User serviceable parts slide out on trays, generic parts can be
used without problems. Trying to build a thesis that Apple is some evil,
tentacular organisation dedicated to suppression of the poor consumer is
more than slightly misplaced, IMO.

Your apparent try to portray IBM/Lenovo as champions of choice is making
me choke a little. That's IBM that would never, ever publish to its
consumers any worthwhile technical documentation for its systems and
that made access to compilers and other tools as difficult as possible
for non-industrial/academic users. And you are comparing them with the
company that published, openly and for a reasonable price, "Inside
Macintosh" that gave full details of every aspect of publishing and
repairing Macs, an that made, and continues to make not just basic
compilers but a suite of programming tools available for free to anyone.

Also note Apples significant contributions to Open Source. Do you have
Linux, can you print from Linux? Say thanks to Apple then for the work
they did on CUPS.

However it goes deeper than just parts and hardware, much the same
applies to the way they control software and what can be distributed on
itunes. Now maintaining that level of control has pros and cons from a
users point of view - still you pays your money and take your choice.

Again, you are guilty of exaggeration of the degree of control. I write
software for Macs and I use software for Macs. It has about the same
level of control exerted over that software as when I write software for
Linux (i.e. none). Much of what I run on my Mac is freeware, shareware
or custom code. No one has ever stopped me from running it.

Similarly with iTunes. My experience is that (a) I'm free to use it or
indeed any other on-line music supplier. (b) My choice of music is
increased, not decreased by iTunes availability and (c) the ones dicking
around over iTunes are the music publishers who are trying deliberately
to wreck iTunes (and BTW all similar music publishing) because they see
it as a threat to the stranglehold they have on the market.

If you want to criticise the MBA, criticise it for its known problems,

To be honest I was not focused on MBAs in particular... I offered it as
a suggestion to clarify I was talking about computers and not combined
harvesters.

shrug In which case IMO it was a poor example to pick. The battery can
be replaced. Either by a reasonably competent user or by Apple, while
you wait, for £99. Given that the Lenovo price for a battery with a run
time of 1.5 hours (Part number: 43R1966) is £114 perhaps you would like
to set the economics of those "easy to replace" batteries in context?

Or how about Part number: 43R1967 at £147.60?

First batteries I found listed at the Lenovo shop for the first X-series
laptop in the shop the Thinkpad X300.

On 12/07/2012 10:49, dennis@home wrote:


"Steve Firth" wrote in message
.. .
John Rumm wrote:

snip

As with most stereotypes, while not universally applicable, there often
is or was an element of truth. You can't deny that when it comes to
making things with "no user serviceable" parts, Apple have form here.
See the teardown of the macbook pro linked above as an example.

I've repaired MacBooks in the past - it's no worse than working on, say
Dell or Sony laptops. I think you exaggerate the potential for problems
as a consequence of the design of the MacBook.

Change the battery on a S2 phone.. pop the back off, pop the battery
out, pop the back on, how did you do it on an iphone?
Replace the RAM in a typical notebook.. unscrew the cover marked RAM,
pop the DIMM out, pop the new one in, screw the cover back on, and with
a MBA?
Change the battery in a typical notebook.. press the button and remove
the battery..
Change the disk drive in a typical notebook.. unscrew the two screws
marked disk, pull out..

The list is endless just for the hardware.

Now how do you write code and install it on an iPad compared to
downloading the free development tools for linux and/or windows and/or
android you would use for anything not apple?


What's your point here? Is it that non-Mac's are more serviceable
because they need to be?

Your last point about software is most telling. Apple has, I gather, a
thriving network of developers, professional and otherwise. But most
computer users want nothing to do with code and command lines. In much
the same way they don't want to change hard disks or upgrade RAM, or
configure firewalls or download virus definitions. Macs do, by and
large, just work without meddling. And they're well screwed together and
designed, and to some, look good and are a pleasure to use.

You're just going to have to get over the fact that if people have
enough money and they're not too self-conscious, a Mac is often a better
choice.

Rob

"Steve Firth" wrote in message
.. .
John Rumm wrote:

On 12/07/2012 00:50, Steve Firth wrote:
John Rumm wrote:

An approach which betrays their corporate mindset; they would much
rather sell you a shiny new toy, than have you persist with an
existing
one.

I guess this time around you missed the point that if a battery fails
within warranty, or even TBH quite a way outside of warranty an Apple
store will generally either fix for free or give a free replacement
computer that is equal to or even better than the one handed in for
repair.

While commendable, the former (in warranty) is something that most
makers will also do,

That is not my experience. The painless manner in which Apple handle the
event of a failure of their kit is IMO exemplary. The Apple Store and
John Lewis are located close to each other in the closes local "shopping
mall" I can't find much difference in approach between the two.

Other suppliers have tended to approach the matter by firstly trying to
claim that the customer must be a liar and a thief and attempting to
avoid legal responsibility. I have found suppliers such as Dell and HP
particularly keen to avoid paying for repairs *in* warranty and
impossible to persuade to correct consequences of manufacturing faults
out of warranty.

IME HP are very good at doing free repairs, the retailers not so good.


and post warranty, something apple would find hard
not to do should they be pressed under to SOGA. Its not as if they can
claim its a low cost unit and you can't expect more than a years use
from etc.

Are Apple the only makers of laptops in that price range? Try getting
Sony to replace a failed VAIO just out of warranty, for example.

Why Sony, its the retailer that is responsible in the UK.
Its easy if you buy from someone that cares (not pcworld).


BTW, if you want me appreciate your irony say something ironic. You may
want to check the meaning of the term "irony".

Anyway, enough of this, I really don't want to acrimoniously argue with
you, but by a similar token I don't like to see misinformation or lazy
stereotype being paraded as fact.

As with most stereotypes, while not universally applicable, there often
is or was an element of truth. You can't deny that when it comes to
making things with "no user serviceable" parts, Apple have form here.
See the teardown of the macbook pro linked above as an example.

I've repaired MacBooks in the past - it's no worse than working on, say
Dell or Sony laptops. I think you exaggerate the potential for problems
as a consequence of the design of the MacBook.

Change the battery on a S2 phone.. pop the back off, pop the battery out,
pop the back on, how did you do it on an iphone?
Replace the RAM in a typical notebook.. unscrew the cover marked RAM, pop
the DIMM out, pop the new one in, screw the cover back on, and with a MBA?
Change the battery in a typical notebook.. press the button and remove the
battery..
Change the disk drive in a typical notebook.. unscrew the two screws marked
disk, pull out..

The list is endless just for the hardware.

Now how do you write code and install it on an iPad compared to downloading
the free development tools for linux and/or windows and/or android you would
use for anything not apple?

On 12/07/2012 08:31, Steve Firth wrote:


Your apparent try to portray IBM/Lenovo as champions of choice is making
me choke a little. That's IBM that would never, ever publish to its
consumers any worthwhile technical documentation for its systems and
that made access to compilers and other tools as difficult as possible
for non-industrial/academic users.


One point he Lenovo are the only company I know that publish hardware
manuals and full dissasembly instructions (at least for it's Thinkpad
line). Damned useful too, makes taking them apart easier than having to
find all the screws.

I'd also say their support is much better than the other tier 1 PC
hardware, IME.

One thing I was very annoyed to find was that they lock their BIOSs to
only allow certain Wireless mini PCI cards, as I found when I tried to
replace one with a cheap no-name Chinese import :-/.

Also note Apples significant contributions to Open Source. Do you have
Linux, can you print from Linux? Say thanks to Apple then for the work
they did on CUPS.

That's certainly true: Printing on Linux has become a lot easier thanks
to that.


The battery can
be replaced. Either by a reasonably competent user or by Apple, while
you wait, for £99. Given that the Lenovo price for a battery with a run
time of 1.5 hours (Part number: 43R1966) is £114 perhaps you would like
to set the economics of those "easy to replace" batteries in context?

Heh. laptop batteries: rip-off. The Air's only being replaceable by
ripping the thing apart is a bit of a pain, but some Vaios need a
screwdriver too, plus they're **** in so many ways: flimsy, slow,
expensive, loaded with bloatware.

On Monday, July 9, 2012 5:40:04 PM UTC+1, Nospam wrote:
On 09/07/2012 16:54, Steve Firth wrote:
> > wrote:
>> On 07/07/2012 20:15, The Medway Handyman wrote:
>>> SWMBO wants to downsize her PC to either a Laptop or a Tablet.
>>>
>>> Now obviously both have their upside& downsides, so what we are looking
>>> for is a review or comparison site that compares the two different systems.
>>>
>>> We can find plenty of sites that compare each with themselves, but not
>>> one that compares Tablet v Laptop.
>>>
>>> Anyone know of such a site?
>>>
>>
>> Buy a "re-con" Thinkpad laptop from someone like "tier1" and replace the
>> HDD with an SSD - you'll then have FAR more performance than any tablet
>> with virtually the same "instant on" for less money.
>
> And unlike a tablet it will be a brick.

I assume you haven't any experience of the IBM/Lenovo X series - they're
certainly more substantial than an iPad but they only weigh around 1.4kg
(compared to about 0.7kg for an iPad) and that isn't too bad when taking
into account the hugely increased capabilities and the freedom to
install what you want.

twice the wieght and half the display resolution a bargin ;-)
what's the battery life like half too I'd estimate, it;'s also useful to have two cameras rather than one, but of limited use I guess.


I have a desktop, a couple of laptops and an iPad ... but it's the
x-series laptop with an SSD that gets used every day.

I use both my ipad and imac everyday and a PC at work every weekday.

On 12/07/2012 08:31, Steve Firth wrote:
John Rumm wrote:

I've repaired MacBooks in the past - it's no worse than working on, say
Dell or Sony laptops. I think you exaggerate the potential for problems
as a consequence of the design of the MacBook.

BTW, no comment on the Mac Pro? It's the easiest computer to work on

No comment since I don't think I have ever met one in the flesh...

that I have ever seen, also the iMac and the Mac Mini are a joy to
upgrade. User serviceable parts slide out on trays, generic parts can be
used without problems. Trying to build a thesis that Apple is some evil,
tentacular organisation dedicated to suppression of the poor consumer is
more than slightly misplaced, IMO.

Quite the reverse in fact. I understand that Apple is very much focused
on fully controlling the consumer experience and ensuring it is of a
high quality. They charge a premium for their products and many are
prepared to pay that in exchange for the level of service.

Your apparent try to portray IBM/Lenovo as champions of choice is making
me choke a little. That's IBM that would never, ever publish to its

Not sure how you arrive at that impression. This started as you having a
pop at nospam for suggesting a X series laptop. You claimed "The Lenovo
(no IBM about it) is badly designed, ugly, heavy and mostly shonky. I
had to lug one around for three years and I couldn't wait to "

That caused me to agree with you on the ugly front, but to highlight
that in my experience they were well designed from a serviceability
point of view, and had decent keyboards.

Beyond that I have very little to say either for or against these
particular machines - I have never owned one, I have never supplied one.
I have used a few and repaired a few and based on that they are ok as
far as laptops go.

consumers any worthwhile technical documentation for its systems and
that made access to compilers and other tools as difficult as possible
for non-industrial/academic users. And you are comparing them

I am?

with the
company that published, openly and for a reasonable price, "Inside
Macintosh" that gave full details of every aspect of publishing and
repairing Macs, an that made, and continues to make not just basic
compilers but a suite of programming tools available for free to anyone.
Also note Apples significant contributions to Open Source. Do you have
Linux, can you print from Linux? Say thanks to Apple then for the work
they did on CUPS.

However it goes deeper than just parts and hardware, much the same
applies to the way they control software and what can be distributed on
itunes. Now maintaining that level of control has pros and cons from a
users point of view - still you pays your money and take your choice.

Again, you are guilty of exaggeration of the degree of control. I write

depends on which product line you look at...

software for Macs and I use software for Macs. It has about the same
level of control exerted over that software as when I write software for
Linux (i.e. none). Much of what I run on my Mac is freeware, shareware
or custom code. No one has ever stopped me from running it.

On macs I am sure that is a fair assessment. My main gripe with macs as
such is the price they charge for what is ultimately very pretty x86
hardware. Personally I have no need for my computers to be pretty.

There is an issue with upgradability - which varies from easy enough
with off the shelf components, to trying to push your through Apple as a
source of (sometimes expensive) options. (and I am talking about
desktops here rather than laptops)

The software availability front is more of an issue from my point of
view, but I fully accept that depending on your needs that may be a non
issue.

The control issues kick in more with phones and tablets, and
particularly with software distribution via itunes.

Similarly with iTunes. My experience is that (a) I'm free to use it or
indeed any other on-line music supplier. (b) My choice of music is
increased, not decreased by iTunes availability and (c) the ones dicking
around over iTunes are the music publishers who are trying deliberately
to wreck iTunes (and BTW all similar music publishing) because they see
it as a threat to the stranglehold they have on the market.

That I can accept... however for me, itunes is of no use whatsoever
since they don't sell lossless audio encoded material, and its DRM
encumbered (this is also the same reason I don't use many of the other
digital music services).

I also find it a bit annoying that one needs to install it on windows
just to service a iPhone - especially given the number of times their
dodgy filter layer drivers manage to bork access to the optical drives
on a system. I also find it ironic that from a company that goes out of
its way to try and enforce strict adherence to its style guidelines by
its developers, that itunes on windows looks just like a mac application!

If you want to criticise the MBA, criticise it for its known problems,

To be honest I was not focused on MBAs in particular... I offered it as
a suggestion to clarify I was talking about computers and not combined
harvesters.

shrug In which case IMO it was a poor example to pick. The battery can
be replaced. Either by a reasonably competent user or by Apple, while
you wait, for £99. Given that the Lenovo price for a battery with a run
time of 1.5 hours (Part number: 43R1966) is £114 perhaps you would like
to set the economics of those "easy to replace" batteries in context?

I replaced a dell laptop battery the other day. Official dell price £90.
Price I paid £25. Time to change 10 seconds. While I waited...




--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 12/07/2012 12:57, Chris Bartram wrote:

Heh. laptop batteries: rip-off. The Air's only being replaceable by
ripping the thing apart is a bit of a pain, but some Vaios need a
screwdriver too, plus they're **** in so many ways: flimsy, slow,
expensive, loaded with bloatware.

Not to mention Sony, who are a right PITA if you ever need to deal with
them!


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On Jul 11, 8:42*am, Chris Bartram
wrote:
On 10/07/2012 23:25, Steve Firth wrote:

At one time that was the relationship between IBM and Lenovo. However
IBM wanted, for some bizarre reason, to get out of the laptop and
printer business so they sold the IPR to Lenovo.

I always thought that was an odd idea, given that the Thinkpad range is
usually regarded well.

There's little money in seling commodity hardware.

MBQ

On Jul 12, 8:31*am, (Steve Firth) wrote:
John Rumm wrote:
On 12/07/2012 00:50, Steve Firth wrote:
John Rumm wrote:

An approach which betrays their corporate mindset; they would much
rather sell you a shiny new toy, than have you persist with an existing
one.

I guess this time around you missed the point that if a battery fails
within warranty, or even TBH quite a way outside of warranty an Apple
store will generally either fix for free or give a free replacement
computer that is equal to or even better than the one handed in for
repair.

While commendable, the former (in warranty) is something that most
makers will also do,

That is not my experience. The painless manner in which Apple handle the
event of a failure of their kit is IMO exemplary. The Apple Store and
John Lewis are located close to each other in the closes local "shopping
mall" I can't find much difference in approach between the two.

Other suppliers have tended to approach the matter by firstly trying to
claim that the customer must be a liar and a thief and attempting to
avoid legal responsibility. I have found suppliers such as Dell and HP
particularly keen to avoid paying for repairs *in* warranty and
impossible to persuade to correct consequences of manufacturing faults
out of warranty.

and post warranty, something apple would find hard
not to do should they be pressed under to SOGA. Its not as if they can
claim its a low cost unit and you can't expect more than a years use
from etc.

Are Apple the only makers of laptops in that price range? Try getting
Sony to replace a failed VAIO just out of warranty, for example.

BTW, if you want me appreciate your irony say something ironic. You may
want to check the meaning of the term "irony".

Anyway, enough of this, I really don't want to acrimoniously argue with
you, but by a similar token I don't like to see misinformation or lazy
stereotype being paraded as fact.

As with most stereotypes, while not universally applicable, there often
is or was an element of truth. You can't deny that when it comes to
making things with "no user serviceable" parts, Apple have form here.
See the teardown of the macbook pro linked above as an example.

I've repaired MacBooks in the past - it's no worse than working on, say
Dell or Sony laptops. I think you exaggerate the potential for problems
as a consequence of the design of the MacBook.

BTW, no comment on the Mac Pro? It's the easiest computer to work on
that I have ever seen, also the iMac and the Mac Mini are a joy to
upgrade. User serviceable parts slide out on trays, generic parts can be
used without problems. Trying to build a thesis that Apple is some evil,
tentacular organisation dedicated to suppression of the poor consumer is
more than slightly misplaced, IMO.

Your apparent try to portray IBM/Lenovo as champions of choice is making
me choke a little. That's IBM that would never, ever publish to its
consumers any worthwhile technical documentation for its systems and

That's odd as the first IBM PC I camne across (circa 1982 or '83) came
with complete schematics and documentation.

MBQ

On 12/07/2012 16:26, Man at B&Q wrote:
On Jul 12, 8:31 am, (Steve Firth) wrote:
John Rumm wrote:
On 12/07/2012 00:50, Steve Firth wrote:
John Rumm wrote:

.....
Your apparent try to portray IBM/Lenovo as champions of choice is making
me choke a little. That's IBM that would never, ever publish to its
consumers any worthwhile technical documentation for its systems and

That's odd as the first IBM PC I camne across (circa 1982 or '83) came
with complete schematics and documentation.

MBQ


The Technical Reference Manual didn't actually come with the PC - you
had to buy it separately. It included all the adapter dimensions, bus
pinouts, bus timings, and full BIOS documentation. I'm pretty sure it
even had the BIOS source code.

My job in the early days of the IBM PC Co was to help and encourage
third parties to develop adapters and add-ons which IBM didn't have (eg
network cards, 3270 emulators, high-end graphics). All the necessary
technical information was published.

Later on, PS/2 Micro Channel Architecture was also fully documented and
licenced to OEMs.

It was the competition - Compaq and the like - who claimed the PC and
PS/2 were proprietary. Not true, though a lot of the technology needed
to make it work, such as DMA, was patented and royalty payments due.

--
Reentrant

Reentrant wrote:

The Technical Reference Manual didn't actually come with the PC - you
had to buy it separately. It included all the adapter dimensions, bus
pinouts, bus timings, and full BIOS documentation. I'm pretty sure it
even had the BIOS source code.

It does, there's one straining the joists in my loft - along with the
orange and grey walls, I sent the HP/UX manuals to the recycling bin though.

On 12/07/2012 16:58, Tim Streater wrote:
In article ,
John Rumm wrote:

On macs I am sure that is a fair assessment. My main gripe with macs
as such is the price they charge for what is ultimately very pretty
x86 hardware. Personally I have no need for my computers to be pretty.

You're also paying for OS X, so I don't have to run Windows. That, to
me, is worth a considerable amount. And as gets pointed out on other
forums, comparably specced Macs are not necessarily a lot more.

There is an issue with upgradability - which varies from easy enough
with off the shelf components, to trying to push your through Apple as
a source of (sometimes expensive) options. (and I am talking about
desktops here rather than laptops)

As I already mentioned, when I bought this low-end Mini in January, I
maxed it out with RAM and an SSD (RAM from Crucial, SSD from Amazon).
The RAM is trivial to install, but the drive requires a complete
tear-down, a special cable, and some mounting screws. Being now
officially a doddering old fossil, I can't be doing with that any
longer, as I found out last year when adding RAM chips to my 68000 board
(nearly broke the blasted pins off the chips).

You might have a point in that, having thus maxed it out, there is no
more upgrading I can do. But it's unclear to me what else I might want
to do.

I think if you buy any small form factor machine (or laptop) then you
have to accept the scope for expansion will be less - this applies to
dinky PCs as well as macs. Generally its less of an issue in terms of
peripherals since the standard level of included stuff on motherboards
these days is quite decent (you are not taking up IO capability adding
network cards, wifi etc). It tends to bite you more when you want a more
substantial upgrade like a motherboard / processor / and RAM swap.

In the tradition of Trigger's broom, I could argue I am using the same
PC now that I was in the late 90's - however other than the case, the
internal components have been swapped several times over. The last swap
was recent - from P4 HT 3GHz to mid range i5 - total cost was about
£160. Not bad for a "new" machine where I did not need to even reinstall
my software.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
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\================================================= ================/

On 12/07/2012 16:56, Andy Burns wrote:
Reentrant wrote:

The Technical Reference Manual didn't actually come with the PC - you
had to buy it separately. It included all the adapter dimensions, bus
pinouts, bus timings, and full BIOS documentation. I'm pretty sure it
even had the BIOS source code.

It does, there's one straining the joists in my loft - along with the
orange and grey walls, I sent the HP/UX manuals to the recycling bin
though.

I remember many years ago trying to get hold of a PC-AT tech ref manual
- particularly the pages on the ser/par IO card. They were one of the
few places you could get really detailed info on how to get at the
hardware. I think it was out of print by then ('88/89 ish) but
eventually found someone to copy the relevant pages for me.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On Thu, 12 Jul 2012 08:26:22 -0700, Man at B&Q wrote:

On Jul 12, 8:31Â*am, (Steve Firth) wrote:
John Rumm wrote:
On 12/07/2012 00:50, Steve Firth wrote:
John Rumm wrote:

An approach which betrays their corporate mindset; they would much
rather sell you a shiny new toy, than have you persist with an
existing one.

I guess this time around you missed the point that if a battery
fails within warranty, or even TBH quite a way outside of warranty
an Apple store will generally either fix for free or give a free
replacement computer that is equal to or even better than the one
handed in for repair.

While commendable, the former (in warranty) is something that most
makers will also do,

That is not my experience. The painless manner in which Apple handle
the event of a failure of their kit is IMO exemplary. The Apple Store
and John Lewis are located close to each other in the closes local
"shopping mall" I can't find much difference in approach between the
two.

Other suppliers have tended to approach the matter by firstly trying to
claim that the customer must be a liar and a thief and attempting to
avoid legal responsibility. I have found suppliers such as Dell and HP
particularly keen to avoid paying for repairs *in* warranty and
impossible to persuade to correct consequences of manufacturing faults
out of warranty.

and post warranty, something apple would find hard not to do should
they be pressed under to SOGA. Its not as if they can claim its a low
cost unit and you can't expect more than a years use from etc.

Are Apple the only makers of laptops in that price range? Try getting
Sony to replace a failed VAIO just out of warranty, for example.

BTW, if you want me appreciate your irony say something ironic. You
may want to check the meaning of the term "irony".

Anyway, enough of this, I really don't want to acrimoniously argue
with you, but by a similar token I don't like to see misinformation
or lazy stereotype being paraded as fact.

As with most stereotypes, while not universally applicable, there
often is or was an element of truth. You can't deny that when it
comes to making things with "no user serviceable" parts, Apple have
form here. See the teardown of the macbook pro linked above as an
example.

I've repaired MacBooks in the past - it's no worse than working on, say
Dell or Sony laptops. I think you exaggerate the potential for problems
as a consequence of the design of the MacBook.

BTW, no comment on the Mac Pro? It's the easiest computer to work on
that I have ever seen, also the iMac and the Mac Mini are a joy to
upgrade. User serviceable parts slide out on trays, generic parts can
be used without problems. Trying to build a thesis that Apple is some
evil, tentacular organisation dedicated to suppression of the poor
consumer is more than slightly misplaced, IMO.

Your apparent try to portray IBM/Lenovo as champions of choice is
making me choke a little. That's IBM that would never, ever publish to
its consumers any worthwhile technical documentation for its systems
and

That's odd as the first IBM PC I camne across (circa 1982 or '83) came
with complete schematics and documentation.

Indeed. IBM have been very open about their machines; I have detailed
technical documentation for every IBM machine I have owned, from an XT-
based PC Portable right up to the x-series server beside my desk
(although for that last one, I never went after the really detailed
stuff). And service manuals for all of them.



--
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On Thu, 12 Jul 2012 17:04:51 +0100, Tim Streater wrote:

In article ,
Reentrant wrote:

On 12/07/2012 16:26, Man at B&Q wrote:
On Jul 12, 8:31 am, (Steve Firth) wrote:
John Rumm wrote:
On 12/07/2012 00:50, Steve Firth wrote:
John Rumm wrote:

.....
Your apparent try to portray IBM/Lenovo as champions of choice is
making me choke a little. That's IBM that would never, ever publish
to its consumers any worthwhile technical documentation for its
systems and

That's odd as the first IBM PC I camne across (circa 1982 or '83)
came with complete schematics and documentation.

The Technical Reference Manual didn't actually come with the PC - you
had to buy it separately. It included all the adapter dimensions, bus
pinouts, bus timings, and full BIOS documentation. I'm pretty sure it
even had the BIOS source code.

But you couldn't simply copy the BIOS. It had to be reverse engineered
by people working in "clean-room" environments, who would also have had
to prove that they hadn't looked at any of the docs to which you refer.

Naturally. But then many companies (Apple included) are proptective of
their IP.



--
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Bob Martin wrote:

in 1144818 20120711 123217 Steve Firth wrote:
Bob Eager wrote:
On Wed, 11 Jul 2012 08:42:54 +0100, Chris Bartram wrote:

On 10/07/2012 23:25, Steve Firth wrote:

At one time that was the relationship between IBM and Lenovo. However
IBM wanted, for some bizarre reason, to get out of the laptop and
printer business so they sold the IPR to Lenovo.


I always thought that was an odd idea, given that the Thinkpad range is
usually regarded well.

The real money is in consultancy, and that's where IBM are at these days.

Where they are rather **** at it.

Yep, only just managed to pass the 100 billion per annum mark!

Not for consultancy they haven't. That figure is for global turnover and
it's in $$$ which makes it look more impressive. That figure includes
mainframe sales and all the low profit margin scrote jobs such as
changing tapes and carrying printout to someone else that IBM does
within financial industries. You're also overlooking the fact that IBM
still makes a great deal of its money in mainframes with System Z and in
software sales.

IBM GBS turns over about $20bn but that doesn't exclusively represent
"consultancy" either and what growth IBM has shown has been by
acquisition, not by business development.

John Rumm wrote:

I think if you buy any small form factor machine (or laptop) then you
have to accept the scope for expansion will be less

Although the fact that Thunderbolt is an external serial implementation
of PCI does mean that expansion on current Apple SFF machines is
actually very good.

Some of the bods at work are a little queasy that it's possible to get
20Gb/s RAIDs for the Mac from £860 or so. That eats into our territory
and does start the customer asking questions about costs.

John Rumm wrote:

I understand that Apple is very much focused
on fully controlling the consumer experience

sigh


That I can accept... however for me, itunes is of no use whatsoever
since they don't sell lossless audio encoded material, and its DRM
encumbered (this is also the same reason I don't use many of the other
digital music services).

Err no, there's no DRM on Audio. And if one is upfront about it, CDs are
hardly "lossless" are they? In fact I doubt if there's any recording
technique that can claim to be "lossless". The Academy curve for example
is an amusing approach to recording that doesn't involve compression of
any sort, but I would be hard pressed to describe it as lossless.

Man at B&Q wrote:

That's odd as the first IBM PC I camne across (circa 1982 or '83) came
with complete schematics and documentation.

ITYM that your employer provided the schematics and documentation. IBM
were less than forthcoming.

On 12/07/2012 12:20, Huge wrote:
On 12/07/2012 10:49, dennis@home wrote:

Now how do you write code and install it on an iPad compared to
downloading the free development tools for linux and/or windows and/or
android you would use for anything not apple?

You download the free development tools for Apple, you retard.


Yup. They install well on an Apple.....

--
Adrian C

Chris Bartram wrote
Steve Firth wrote

Your apparent try to portray IBM/Lenovo as champions of choice is making
me choke a little. That's IBM that would never, ever publish to its
consumers any worthwhile technical documentation for its systems and
that made access to compilers and other tools as difficult as possible
for non-industrial/academic users.

One point he Lenovo are the only company I know that publish hardware
manuals and full dissasembly instructions

Then you need to get out more. They arent the only ones.

And I know that because I will only buy laptops that have that.

(at least for it's Thinkpad line). Damned useful too, makes taking them
apart easier than having to find all the screws.

I'd also say their support is much better than the other tier 1 PC
hardware, IME.

Its not mine either.

One thing I was very annoyed to find was that they lock their BIOSs to
only allow certain Wireless mini PCI cards, as I found when I tried to
replace one with a cheap no-name Chinese import :-/.

And they have played silly buggers with the drive formatting too.

Also note Apples significant contributions to Open Source. Do you have
Linux, can you print from Linux? Say thanks to Apple then for the work
they did on CUPS.

That's certainly true: Printing on Linux has become a lot easier thanks to
that.

The battery can
be replaced. Either by a reasonably competent user or by Apple, while
you wait, for £99. Given that the Lenovo price for a battery with a run
time of 1.5 hours (Part number: 43R1966) is £114 perhaps you would like
to set the economics of those "easy to replace" batteries in context?

Heh. laptop batteries: rip-off. The Air's only being replaceable by
ripping the thing apart is a bit of a pain,

****ed by design in fact.

but some Vaios need a screwdriver too,

So something else is also ****ed by design, so what ?

plus they're **** in so many ways: flimsy, slow, expensive, loaded with
bloatware.

Plenty of other laptops arent.

On Thu, 12 Jul 2012 19:24:25 +0100, Steve Firth wrote:

Man at B&Q wrote:

That's odd as the first IBM PC I camne across (circa 1982 or '83) came
with complete schematics and documentation.

ITYM that your employer provided the schematics and documentation. IBM
were less than forthcoming.

Not true. I just bought them from the IBM dealer. Not that expensive
either, for a very cmprehensive set. I still have them, as it happens.



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On 12/07/2012 19:24, Steve Firth wrote:
John Rumm wrote:

I understand that Apple is very much focused
on fully controlling the consumer experience

sigh


That I can accept... however for me, itunes is of no use whatsoever
since they don't sell lossless audio encoded material, and its DRM
encumbered (this is also the same reason I don't use many of the other
digital music services).

Err no, there's no DRM on Audio. And if one is upfront about it, CDs are

To be fair, I had not realised they had dropped DRM from audio. A
positive move forward...

hardly "lossless" are they? In fact I doubt if there's any recording

CDs are not perfect, but they are a good step up from 256 kbps encodings...


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

"Man at B&Q" wrote in message
...
On Jul 11, 8:42 am, Chris Bartram
wrote:
On 10/07/2012 23:25, Steve Firth wrote:

At one time that was the relationship between IBM and Lenovo. However
IBM wanted, for some bizarre reason, to get out of the laptop and
printer business so they sold the IPR to Lenovo.

I always thought that was an odd idea, given that the Thinkpad range is
usually regarded well.

There's little money in seling commodity hardware.

In spades with an operation with the immense overheads of an IBM.

"Reentrant" wrote in message
...
On 12/07/2012 16:26, Man at B&Q wrote:
On Jul 12, 8:31 am, (Steve Firth) wrote:
John Rumm wrote:
On 12/07/2012 00:50, Steve Firth wrote:
John Rumm wrote:

.....
Your apparent try to portray IBM/Lenovo as champions of choice is making
me choke a little. That's IBM that would never, ever publish to its
consumers any worthwhile technical documentation for its systems and

That's odd as the first IBM PC I camne across (circa 1982 or '83) came
with complete schematics and documentation.

MBQ

The Technical Reference Manual didn't actually come with the PC - you had
to buy it separately. It included all the adapter dimensions, bus pinouts,
bus timings, and full BIOS documentation.

Yes.

I'm pretty sure it even had the BIOS source code.

Yes.

My job in the early days of the IBM PC Co was to help and encourage third
parties to develop adapters and add-ons which IBM didn't have (eg network
cards, 3270 emulators, high-end graphics). All the necessary technical
information was published.

Later on, PS/2 Micro Channel Architecture was also fully documented and
licenced to OEMs.

But it never was for the AT.

It was the competition - Compaq and the like - who claimed the PC and PS/2
were proprietary.

Nope, IBM did with the PS/2. That's why it had to be licensed.

Not true, though a lot of the technology needed to make it work, such as
DMA, was patented and royalty payments due.

That's not right with DMA.

"Rob" reply@ng wrote in message
b.com...

What's your point here? Is it that non-Mac's are more serviceable because
they need to be?

Apple use the same components as everyone else. Why would you expect them to
be any different?


Your last point about software is most telling. Apple has, I gather, a
thriving network of developers, professional and otherwise. But most
computer users want nothing to do with code and command lines. In much the
same way they don't want to change hard disks or upgrade RAM, or configure
firewalls or download virus definitions. Macs do, by and large, just work
without meddling. And they're well screwed together and designed, and to
some, look good and are a pleasure to use.

Most users don't know what any of those things are, apple rely on this to
sell their "it always works" stuff.

However it doesn't always work and it does need anti virus and fire walls.
And there is no flash so a lot of web sites just don't work.

I don't find them a pleasure to use either, they don't run the software I
want to run, no pleasure there.

Apple will soon find out that "most" people will be happy with a cheap
tablet that runs a web browser and a few games and that's all they really
want.


You're just going to have to get over the fact that if people have enough
money and they're not too self-conscious, a Mac is often a better choice.

If you worry about fashion then yes.
However if you actually want choice macs are a waste of time.

I also don't like their forced upgrade policy, you must have noticed they
quietly drop older models from their OS support each time they release a new
version. It's not because they wont run the new version, its because they
want people to upgrade so they put checks in the OS and just prevent the new
OS from installing.

"Huge" wrote in message
...

On 12/07/2012 10:49, dennis@home wrote:

Now how do you write code and install it on an iPad compared to
downloading the free development tools for linux and/or windows and/or
android you would use for anything not apple?

You download the free development tools for Apple, you retard.

So you have you broken the license conditions by avoiding apples software
distribution rules about using istore?

In article , dennis@home
wrote:


"Rob" reply@ng wrote in message
b.com...

What's your point here? Is it that non-Mac's are more serviceable
because they need to be?

Apple use the same components as everyone else. Why would you expect them
to be any different?

Do they use the same components? They seem not to worry about price so they
probably pick more expensive, better quality (longer lasting) components.

--
From KT24

Using a RISC OS computer running v5.18

On Fri, 13 Jul 2012 09:07:44 +0100, charles wrote:

In article , dennis@home
wrote:


"Rob" reply@ng wrote in message
b.com...

What's your point here? Is it that non-Mac's are more serviceable
because they need to be?

Apple use the same components as everyone else. Why would you expect
them to be any different?

Do they use the same components? They seem not to worry about price so
they probably pick more expensive, better quality (longer lasting)
components.

Interestingly, Apple use quite a few Samsung components.

http://eandt.theiet.org/magazine/201...rdown-iPad.cfm



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On 13/07/2012 08:05, dennis@home wrote:


"Rob" reply@ng wrote in message
b.com...

What's your point here? Is it that non-Mac's are more serviceable
because they need to be?

Apple use the same components as everyone else. Why would you expect
them to be any different?


Not sure if you've ever opened up a Mac, but to my eye they use
carefully selected components that work well together, and fit them in
properly designed cases. I'm not saying this is rocket science - but it
does make Apple different.

I'd expect them to be different because they're a niche producer. The
fact that you're not in the niche is obvious (and fair enough, of course).


Your last point about software is most telling. Apple has, I gather, a
thriving network of developers, professional and otherwise. But most
computer users want nothing to do with code and command lines. In much
the same way they don't want to change hard disks or upgrade RAM, or
configure firewalls or download virus definitions. Macs do, by and
large, just work without meddling. And they're well screwed together
and designed, and to some, look good and are a pleasure to use.

Most users don't know what any of those things are, apple rely on this
to sell their "it always works" stuff.


Yes, most users would wonder why their computers run slowly, crash etc.
Most PC users I know - those who simply want to use the things - pay for
horrors like Norton AV and anti-spyware because manufacturers load the
trials. I try and talk them out of it, but it's a world of pain.


However it doesn't always work and it does need anti virus and fire walls.
And there is no flash so a lot of web sites just don't work.


Well, IME that's nonsense.


I don't find them a pleasure to use either, they don't run the software
I want to run, no pleasure there.


And that's fine - a good reason not to use one.

Apple will soon find out that "most" people will be happy with a cheap
tablet that runs a web browser and a few games and that's all they
really want.


I think you're almost right - the iPad is still the one to beat, it
seems. And for those that want proper productivity, it'll be a computer
of some sort.


You're just going to have to get over the fact that if people have
enough money and they're not too self-conscious, a Mac is often a
better choice.

If you worry about fashion then yes.

Actually, I meant the opposite, at least IME. People quite relentlessly
take the ****. Also, I'm vaguely embarrassed about having an iPhone and
an iPad - superficially, they're pointless expensive bling.

However if you actually want choice macs are a waste of time.


Well, yes, if Macs don't offer a choice you might want - which doesn't
affect many I'd wager.

I also don't like their forced upgrade policy, you must have noticed
they quietly drop older models from their OS support each time they
release a new version. It's not because they wont run the new version,
its because they want people to upgrade so they put checks in the OS and
just prevent the new OS from installing.


Agreed. Don't like that.

Rob

On 12/07/2012 23:12, Rod Speed wrote:


"Reentrant" wrote in message
...
On 12/07/2012 16:26, Man at B&Q wrote:
On Jul 12, 8:31 am, (Steve Firth) wrote:
John Rumm wrote:
On 12/07/2012 00:50, Steve Firth wrote:
John Rumm wrote:

.....
Your apparent try to portray IBM/Lenovo as champions of choice is
making
me choke a little. That's IBM that would never, ever publish to its
consumers any worthwhile technical documentation for its systems and

That's odd as the first IBM PC I camne across (circa 1982 or '83) came
with complete schematics and documentation.

MBQ

The Technical Reference Manual didn't actually come with the PC - you
had to buy it separately. It included all the adapter dimensions, bus
pinouts, bus timings, and full BIOS documentation.

Yes.

I'm pretty sure it even had the BIOS source code.

Yes.

My job in the early days of the IBM PC Co was to help and encourage
third parties to develop adapters and add-ons which IBM didn't have
(eg network cards, 3270 emulators, high-end graphics). All the
necessary technical information was published.

Later on, PS/2 Micro Channel Architecture was also fully documented
and licenced to OEMs.

But it never was for the AT.

It was the competition - Compaq and the like - who claimed the PC and
PS/2 were proprietary.

Nope, IBM did with the PS/2. That's why it had to be licensed.

Not true, though a lot of the technology needed to make it work, such
as DMA, was patented and royalty payments due.

That's not right with DMA.

IBM has lots of PC-related DMA patents -
eg http://www.google.com/patents?id=gmobAAAAEBAJ

ie not for the concept of DMA itself, or later Bus Mastering, but for
specific ways of implementing them.

I didn't think "proprietary" and "licenced" were the same. Doesn't the
former mean the interface is not documented and competitors can't use it
- even for a fee?

--
Reentrant

On Thursday, July 12, 2012 3:31:56 PM UTC+1, John Rumm wrote:
On 12/07/2012 08:31, Steve Firth wrote:
> John Rumm > wrote:

> I've repaired MacBooks in the past - it's no worse than working on, say
> Dell or Sony laptops. I think you exaggerate the potential for problems
> as a consequence of the design of the MacBook.
>
> BTW, no comment on the Mac Pro? It's the easiest computer to work on

No comment since I don't think I have ever met one in the flesh...

> that I have ever seen, also the iMac and the Mac Mini are a joy to
> upgrade. User serviceable parts slide out on trays, generic parts can be
> used without problems. Trying to build a thesis that Apple is some evil,
> tentacular organisation dedicated to suppression of the poor consumer is
> more than slightly misplaced, IMO.

Quite the reverse in fact. I understand that Apple is very much focused
on fully controlling the consumer experience and ensuring it is of a
high quality.

Which is why they stopped flash working on mobiles.

They charge a premium for their products and many are
prepared to pay that in exchange for the level of service.

yes that seems to be the case, I don't mind paying a little extra for something that will work properly.


> Your apparent try to portray IBM/Lenovo as champions of choice is making
> me choke a little. That's IBM that would never, ever publish to its

Not sure how you arrive at that impression. This started as you having a
pop at nospam for suggesting a X series laptop. You claimed "The Lenovo
(no IBM about it) is badly designed, ugly, heavy and mostly shonky. I
had to lug one around for three years and I couldn't wait to "

That caused me to agree with you on the ugly front, but to highlight
that in my experience they were well designed from a serviceability
point of view, and had decent keyboards.

Beyond that I have very little to say either for or against these
particular machines - I have never owned one, I have never supplied one.
I have used a few and repaired a few and based on that they are ok as
far as laptops go.

Trouble is laptops and tablets aren't the same devices lots of things you can do on both rasonaly well it's when you want to do somethijng 'special' then it becomes clear which is the best for that job.
More peole now buy laptops than desktops because the power of laptops is far better than it was 10 years ago, and the price has fallen quite a bit too..


> consumers any worthwhile technical documentation for its systems and
> that made access to compilers and other tools as difficult as possible
> for non-industrial/academic users. And you are comparing them

I am?

> with the
> company that published, openly and for a reasonable price, "Inside
> Macintosh" that gave full details of every aspect of publishing and
> repairing Macs, an that made, and continues to make not just basic
> compilers but a suite of programming tools available for free to anyone.
> Also note Apples significant contributions to Open Source. Do you have
> Linux, can you print from Linux? Say thanks to Apple then for the work
> they did on CUPS.
>
>> However it goes deeper than just parts and hardware, much the same
>> applies to the way they control software and what can be distributed on
>> itunes. Now maintaining that level of control has pros and cons from a
>> users point of view - still you pays your money and take your choice.
>
> Again, you are guilty of exaggeration of the degree of control. I write

depends on which product line you look at...

> software for Macs and I use software for Macs. It has about the same
> level of control exerted over that software as when I write software for
> Linux (i.e. none). Much of what I run on my Mac is freeware, shareware
> or custom code. No one has ever stopped me from running it.

On macs I am sure that is a fair assessment. My main gripe with macs as
such is the price they charge for what is ultimately very pretty x86
hardware. Personally I have no need for my computers to be pretty.

It's a bit more thaqn that, in my frontroom I have two macs rnning sometimes 24/7 and peole can sleep in that room while they are both running,
If froend bring their PC over I can hardly heare myself think, slight exageration perhaps ;-). And I quite like the idea of a stylish computer in the frontroom rather than some old black box making noises.


There is an issue with upgradability - which varies from easy enough
with off the shelf components, to trying to push your through Apple as a
source of (sometimes expensive) options. (and I am talking about
desktops here rather than laptops)

I find less reason to ugrade and I work with PCs too, they seem to NEED to be upgraded more often. You should also check secondhand prices and you'll understand why secondhand macs also cost more than the 'equavlalent' PCs .
In fact a friend that has an old 17" macbook pro that is six years old now is very happy with it, her boyfriend brought himself a new samsung laptop last year and it's been in the draw pretty much ever since, it doesn;t do anythingn better than the Apple but the clock speed is faster, so maybe that means something.



The software availability front is more of an issue from my point of
view, but I fully accept that depending on your needs that may be a non
issue.

I'm still not convinced by that argument in fact you can run MS on any mac that's less than 4 years old or so, so there's NO problem with software availibility and many people say windows runs betrer on macs even MS knew that as they used a macbook pro to demostrate their software a few years ago it wass that rathe rstrange avert whre a young kid shows her dad how to make music ona computer, looking carefully you can see it's a macbook pro they are using. On investigation it turned out they use the macbook pro because their software kept crashing on the PC laptop they set it up on.
or you can use vmware or parellesl to run PCs apps if you really want to.


The control issues kick in more with phones and tablets, and
particularly with software distribution via itunes.

There's plenty of software from 3rd party that doesn't use itunes
but perhaps yuo mean the app store,. but thats like saying you can olny buy bread from one shop.


> Similarly with iTunes. My experience is that (a) I'm free to use it or
> indeed any other on-line music supplier. (b) My choice of music is
> increased, not decreased by iTunes availability and (c) the ones dicking
> around over iTunes are the music publishers who are trying deliberately
> to wreck iTunes (and BTW all similar music publishing) because they see
> it as a threat to the stranglehold they have on the market.

That I can accept... however for me, itunes is of no use whatsoever
since they don't sell lossless audio encoded material,

That doesn;t really bother me, there's few tracks I can tell teh differnce between lossless and 256k ACC.

and its DRM
encumbered (this is also the same reason I don't use many of the other
digital music services).
Some aren;t some are, even those that are, I've not had a problem with, if I buy a physiocal CD legally I;m not allowed to copyb it onto tape a portable device or eve copy it for use in the car. My Aple purches I can legally make 7 physical copies off and have i tinstalled on as my of my mobile devices as I want. In fact tonight I'm goin g to my parent to install a few apps on teh iPad I borough for my dad, although these apps only cost a few pound each they won;t cost me or him anything as I can install them on as many ipads and ipods as I want no limit.


I also find it a bit annoying that one needs to install it on windows
just to service a iPhone -

Most products require software of some sort.


especially given the number of times their
dodgy filter layer drivers manage to bork access to the optical drives
on a system.

That's the PC for you.

I also find it ironic that from a company that goes out of
its way to try and enforce strict adherence to its style guidelines by
its developers, that itunes on windows looks just like a mac application!

That's because it is a Mac application.
One of teh reasons I prefer W7 over other PC OSs is that it is more Mac OS like.
Do you really want to go back to DOS ?



>>> If you want to criticise the MBA, criticise it for its known problems,
>>
>> To be honest I was not focused on MBAs in particular... I offered it as
>> a suggestion to clarify I was talking about computers and not combined
>> harvesters.
>
> <shrug> In which case IMO it was a poor example to pick. The battery can
> be replaced. Either by a reasonably competent user or by Apple, while
> you wait, for £99. Given that the Lenovo price for a battery with a run
> time of 1.5 hours (Part number: 43R1966) is £114 perhaps you would like
> to set the economics of those "easy to replace" batteries in context?

I replaced a dell laptop battery the other day. Official dell price £90..
Price I paid £25. Time to change 10 seconds. While I waited...

How many times to you need to replace a typical laptop battery ?
With most Macs it seems to be between 3-5 years, by that time most usully upgrade, but the 6 year-old 17" macbook pro still has the same battery it only last about 2.5 hours, but another friend new laptop battery for his 12" samsung note book only last 3.5 hours when new.






--
Cheers,

John.

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On Jul 12, 7:24*pm, (Steve Firth) wrote:
Man at B&Q wrote:

That's odd as the first IBM PC I camne across (circa 1982 or '83) came
with complete schematics and documentation.

ITYM that your employer provided the schematics and documentation. IBM
were less than forthcoming.

Take it any way you like. The fact remains the technical info was
available from IBM.

MBQ

On 13/07/2012 16:49, Man at B&Q wrote:
On Jul 12, 7:24 pm, (Steve Firth) wrote:
Man at wrote:

That's odd as the first IBM PC I camne across (circa 1982 or '83) came
with complete schematics and documentation.

ITYM that your employer provided the schematics and documentation. IBM
were less than forthcoming.

Take it any way you like. The fact remains the technical info was
available from IBM.

Which, according to my memory, is why the Intel based PC is now the
standard, and the Mac is a niche product. IBM published almost all the
details that were needed to copy and expand the product. They only kept
the BIOS software proprietary, so other motherboard makers had to
reverse engineer it, though most of the BIOS calls *were* documented.

I could also mention here IBM long term support, in that I have a
Thinkpad 760 from 1993, and can still get all the DOS/ Window 3.1
drivers and service manuals on the Lanovo website. The unit even works...

Apple refused to licence their designs, so people couldn't make copies
legally or easily. That's why the Apple Mac was an expensive niche
product for so long.

Neither of them took off until the killer application came along though.
For the Mac, it was, IIRC, Quark Express, for the PC it was, again IIRC,
Excel.

--
Tciao for Now!

John.

On 13/07/2012 17:03, John Williamson wrote:
On 13/07/2012 16:49, Man at B&Q wrote:
On Jul 12, 7:24 pm, (Steve Firth) wrote:
Man at wrote:

That's odd as the first IBM PC I camne across (circa 1982 or '83) came
with complete schematics and documentation.

ITYM that your employer provided the schematics and documentation. IBM
were less than forthcoming.

Take it any way you like. The fact remains the technical info was
available from IBM.

Which, according to my memory, is why the Intel based PC is now the
standard, and the Mac is a niche product. IBM published almost all the
details that were needed to copy and expand the product. They only kept
the BIOS software proprietary, so other motherboard makers had to
reverse engineer it, though most of the BIOS calls *were* documented.

I could also mention here IBM long term support, in that I have a
Thinkpad 760 from 1993, and can still get all the DOS/ Window 3.1
drivers and service manuals on the Lanovo website. The unit even works...

Apple refused to licence their designs, so people couldn't make copies
legally or easily. That's why the Apple Mac was an expensive niche
product for so long.

Neither of them took off until the killer application came along though.
For the Mac, it was, IIRC, Quark Express, for the PC it was, again IIRC,
Excel.

DTP was certainly the first "killer application" for the mac (although
to some extent that depended on Postscript and desktop laser printers to
form the whole picture), Quark came later.

For PCs, Lotus 123 was one of the big drivers. (and the heritage of
business interest in microcomputers in the first place goes back to Dan
Bricklin's Visicalc (on which 123 was based) - ironically first released
on the Apple II)


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/