On Feb 10, 2:57*pm, "Dave Liquorice"
wrote:
On Fri, 10 Feb 2012 10:30:14 -0000, David WE Roberts wrote:
Experts believe more wind on the grid will help to offset the loss of
power from coal.

Weasel words "will help". Riding a bicycle with a dynamo attached
"will help".

For the best part of a couple of weeks wind has struggled to get
above 1GW. Coal on the other hand hasn't fallen below 20GW and for
the last few days is running at nearly 25GW 24/7.

On Thursday, it emerged that 10pc of the UK's electricity came from wind
for the first time this quarter.

The anticyclone that has brought the recent bitter cold (and the same
last winter) is not the wet dream of wind farmers. It's the
unacceptable wet fart of vegetarianism.

The same will be true in the summer every time the Azores High brings
hot dry weather here.

Jules Richardson wrote:

On Fri, 10 Feb 2012 11:24:52 +0000, Tim Watts wrote:
Let bring on the blackouts. I hope London goes out first. Few hours here
and there. I have a feeling that the nuclear expansion programme will
get doubled and completed in half the time then...

well, that's assuming that the sequence doesn't go:

blackout - panic - rioting - civil war - zombie apocalypse.

I have a shed full of iron bars and choppy things - I am fully ready for
zombies...

--
Tim Watts

On 10/02/2012 19:04, hugh wrote:
In message , The Natural Philosopher
writes
tony sayer wrote:
It's ********, obvious to anyone who looks at the instananeosu
figures a few times - but TNP had hard data in his post anyway.

Let bring on the blackouts. I hope London goes out first. Few hours
here and there. I have a feeling that the nuclear expansion
programme will get doubled and completed in half the time then...

Lets hope this happens and show these bloody "experts" up for what they
are deluded bull ****ters;!...

Apparently London consumes as much as 10GW all by itself. Up to 20% of
the entire national demand.. greedy *******s. And not a single power
station left, hardly..

Well give them all the wind power then.

No, lets be efficient. We'll build a power station in the middle of
London. In winter we can use the waste heat for the local housing and
in summer dump it in the river.

I think there's a good site in Battersea, and another one that's being
used as an art gallery.

Ideally we'll use nuclear power, we don't want coal smoke all over London

On tidal BTW - I'm in favour of using Morecambe Bay _and_ the Severn.
But you need both to get steady flow. And that's not enough to make
much difference (someone said 14GW?). And there aren't any other sites...

Andy

"Jules Richardson" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 10 Feb 2012 11:24:52 +0000, Tim Watts wrote:
Let bring on the blackouts. I hope London goes out first. Few hours here
and there. I have a feeling that the nuclear expansion programme will
get doubled and completed in half the time then...

well, that's assuming that the sequence doesn't go:

blackout - panic - rioting - civil war - zombie apocalypse.


But you can't play Zombie Apocalypse.
There won't be any power for your PS3!

--
No plan survives contact with the enemy.
[Not even bunny]

Helmuth von Moltke the Elder

(\__/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")

"Another Dave" wrote in message
...
I can't believe I'm saying this but the only manifesto I'd vote for is
UKIP's. Not a chance in hell of their getting in though.

http://www.ukip.org/content/ukip-pol...nt-ukip-policy

"Increase nuclear power generation to provide up to 50% of our electricity
needs. Because Britain’s domestic energy plants are ageing and renewable
energy sources have been shown to be unreliable, UKIP will pass hybrid
Acts of Parliament to accelerate the planning process and allow old
reactors to be replaced

· Support the efficient extraction of indigenous coal for use in cleaner,
coal-fired electricity generation plants

· Oppose wind farms in general and require large new wind power schemes to
be funded by the market. Most current schemes have proved uneconomic,
often operating at less than a third of capacity - sometimes less than a
tenth *- thereby producing a derisory amount of power

· Ensure any large new wind farms are constructed offshore. UKIP regards
onshore wind turbines and the accompanying power lines as eyesores in
beautiful countryside

· Repeal the UK’s Climate Change Act and return to a Department of Energy

· Immediately repeal disastrous EU Directives such as the Large Combustion
Plant Directive. This Directive threatens to put the lights out by closing
a quarter of the UK’s domestic coal and energy plants by 2015 without
providing any realistic, working alternatives. UKIP will pull out of EU
Carbon Trading Schemes, the proposed EU Carbon Tax and binding targets on
renewable and bio fuels"

Another Dave


I seem to recall another far right party that made sure the trains ran on
time.
However I don't think their full manifesto was completely acceptable ;-)

--
No plan survives contact with the enemy.
[Not even bunny]

Helmuth von Moltke the Elder

(\__/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")

On Fri, 10 Feb 2012 10:56:16 +0000, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

Despite massive investment, Germany has utterly failed to generate any
solar power after dark. But we are reliably informed that better
technology and more investment will solve this minor problem.

Simples - bore a hole through the Earth and place dispersal mirrors at
this end of it. Or have orbiting gigantic mirrors.

On Feb 10, 11:52*am, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:
Apparently London consumes as much as 10GW all by itself. Up to 20% of
the entire national demand.. greedy *******s. And not a single power
station left, hardly..

There is no mains backup to the **** pumpers in Westminster... all we
need is a fan, stuck in the doorway.

There is one simple green solution to this... we burn all the
greens... saving a fortune in their lifetime carbon output... saving a
whole load of their bull****. They are simply a fundamentalist
religion displacing previous religions which has usurped sound
scientific methodology.

I still can not get over why no-one has publically complained on C4
news about Grand Designs drivel about "all that concrete acting as a
thermal store during the summer then releases it back during the
winter". It just sums up the ******** science. Turn off the heating
and see how long it takes to go cold... gee... looks like Darwin might
just do it for us!

On Fri, 10 Feb 2012 16:27:32 +0000, Tim Watts wrote:

I suspect a lot of protestors (ie the "fashional protestor" as opposed
to the ones with deeply held core beliefs) will have a sudden awakening
when their lights go out 4 times a week for 3-5 hours throughout the
entire winter.

Remember the 3 day week and power cuts on rota published in the
newspapers?

It's the modern greeny nimby dickhead ******* who doesn't want anything
built, but is happy to enjoy the fruits of the same, that I want to nut.

After you.

--
Cheers
Dave.

On Feb 10, 12:54*pm, The Other Mike
wrote:
The whole market is a mess. Caused by the free market.

Sadly the only free market is nature.
Every other market has a Market Maker and the poor policies resulted
in gas being the cheapest choice. ONLY Billing, Meter Reading, MV & LV
Cable, Non Nuclear Maintenance etc should have been privatised.

I recall writing a pre O-level study into energy production, stating
that coal was the logical choice re self-sufficiency on top of nuclear
handling baseband. It received a distinction. It is as relevant and
correct today as it was then, it blew a hole through thatchers energy
policy.


1) Massively improving energy efficiency of UK housing stock

Which is going to lead to "install new windows and you have to achieve
X Y Z other improvements".

Home ownership is going to look like a bigger debt that people ever
imagined, all because of imbecile property builders for decades who
opposed insulation as something that reduced their profit margins. The
week after the first sheets of polystyrene rolled off the production
line decades ago, they should have been coated with cement & glass
mesh to bond them to walls of houses.


People will eventually say no more and we will have hundreds of
thousands bypassing meters.

I can see a 100% rise in energy prices within 4-5yrs, and a savage
backlash.

Privatising energy planning & generation was insane, it is not just
economically strategic, it is absolutely **fundamental** to a
countries ability to operate. It will end up as a complete failure of
requirement specification and regulation, just like the FSA.

I'm a lower-case greenie, and my answer is: more coal!

When I was at school in the 1980s we were told there was enough
coal in the ground to last another 300 years. In a chemistry
lesson we did an energy planning exercise to decide how the
future eneergy mix should be planned.

For electricity, we should have about 25%-33% nuclear for
continuous base load, 70-odd% coal for the heavy lifting,
a scattering of gas for instant-startup load spikes. Where
it is economical, site-specific solar for site-specific
usages, eg powering parking ticket machines.

Town and cities should be converting waste to energy,
electricity and local heating. It's madness to dump
useful compact energy sources (rubbish) in the ground
instead of using it.

Other than a few for load spikes, using gas for electrity
generation is madness. Converting gas to heat to convert
to electricity to then send along a lossy transmission network,
to then convert back to heat again. Madness! Gas should be
used exclusively for end-user heating, only one energy
conversion point.

(I suppose with appropriate technology gas-powered transport
would be a suitable use, but I prefer vehicles that don't
need pressure vessels to contain their fuel.)

People complain about dirty coal. Ok then, use clean coal.
Highly pulverised high pressure particulate coal gas, and
don't just throw away the "waste", that's by-products.
Use the heat by-products for local heating. Scrub the
vapour output and collect the by-products. To use the
heat byproducts for local heating the power plant will
have to be near enough to habitations to transport the
heat effectively, but so what, locals can either have
cheap heat from the local power station, or go cold.

But of course, it won't happen because it's sensible,
and "politics" directs energy policy, not engineering.
I'm sure than if this was the 1930s we'd never get
the National Grid built, and there'd be more than a
dozen socket outlet, power and frequency standards
across the country.

JGH

David WE Roberts wrote:


I seem to recall another far right party that made sure the trains ran on
time.

"Said they made the trains run on time" and happened to control the media. I
work with a few italians - the trains *actually* running on time was a myth.

However I don't think their full manifesto was completely acceptable ;-)


That too...


--
Tim Watts

Dave Liquorice wrote:

On Fri, 10 Feb 2012 16:27:32 +0000, Tim Watts wrote:

I suspect a lot of protestors (ie the "fashional protestor" as opposed
to the ones with deeply held core beliefs) will have a sudden awakening
when their lights go out 4 times a week for 3-5 hours throughout the
entire winter.

Remember the 3 day week and power cuts on rota published in the
newspapers?


Ah yes - I was there too. As a kid, it was hilarious fun. Huddled around the
coal fire (as the CH was dead), mother producing sandwiches if the cut
happened to prevented cooking at the usual time. Parafin lamp.

I think the difference was: people knew it was down to the unions and it
would get sorted in the short term. Imagine the panic if someone told the
country "it will take several years to get additional generation on line -
this will happen every winter".


It's the modern greeny nimby dickhead ******* who doesn't want anything
built, but is happy to enjoy the fruits of the same, that I want to nut.

After you.


We can share - plenty to go around...

--
Tim Watts

In article ,
Tim Watts wrote:
Dave Liquorice wrote:

On Fri, 10 Feb 2012 16:27:32 +0000, Tim Watts wrote:

I suspect a lot of protestors (ie the "fashional protestor" as opposed
to the ones with deeply held core beliefs) will have a sudden awakening
when their lights go out 4 times a week for 3-5 hours throughout the
entire winter.

Remember the 3 day week and power cuts on rota published in the
newspapers?


Ah yes - I was there too. As a kid, it was hilarious fun. Huddled around
the coal fire (as the CH was dead), mother producing sandwiches if the
cut happened to prevented cooking at the usual time. Parafin lamp.

I think the difference was: people knew it was down to the unions and it
would get sorted in the short term. Imagine the panic if someone told the
country "it will take several years to get additional generation on line -
this will happen every winter".

in my childhood, 1940s/50s, we used to expect power cuts. But we only
really relied on electricity for lighting. We had coal fires, a gas cooker
and, yes, we had a paraffin lamp which was kept on the kitchen wall.

--
From KT24

Using a RISC OS computer running v5.16

jgharston wrote:


But of course, it won't happen because it's sensible,
and "politics" directs energy policy, not engineering.
I'm sure than if this was the 1930s we'd never get
the National Grid built, and there'd be more than a
dozen socket outlet, power and frequency standards
across the country.

There were, in effect, when it all started pre 1900.

London had a variety of 2 phase (90 degree), 3 phase and DC systems
(including variations within such as X-0-X volt distribution to customers
like the US) all with a variery of voltages - all based on small local
networks being supplied from one generator who dealt directly with its
customers.

Apparantly unifying that lot into a single 3 phase system was a major
undertaking that took a very long time to sort out. And that's just London.

--
Tim Watts

David WE Roberts wrote:

I seem to recall another far right party that made sure the trains ran
on time.
However I don't think their full manifesto was completely acceptable ;-)


Neither do I. But it's a useful stick to beat my local (Conservative) MP
with. She was one of the signatories to the recent letter from 101 MPs.
For some inexplicable reason support for UKIP is quite serious round here.

Another Dave

--
Change nospam to gmx

http://www.bmreports.com/bsp/additio...s_historic.php

Seems to be a Demand Control Imminent in effect from 10:23 today (11th).

Are these DCI's routine (ie shed some industrial load on those special
tarrifs) or is it bad(TM)?

--
Tim Watts

"Tim Watts" wrote in message
...

http://www.bmreports.com/bsp/additio...s_historic.php

Seems to be a Demand Control Imminent in effect from 10:23 today (11th).

Are these DCI's routine (ie shed some industrial load on those special
tarrifs) or is it bad(TM)?


At first glance it has the look of a training exercise of some sort.
Saturday morning is not a time of peak demand but is a time when people
might be persuaded to come in to work and check out their procedures.

If so, the implication is that we are running near the limit and they might
decide to do it 'for real' at a weekday time of peak load and want to be
sure that it works.

Which does hint at potential 'deep ****'(TM).
--
No plan survives contact with the enemy.
[Not even bunny]

Helmuth von Moltke the Elder

(\__/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")

Tim Watts wrote:
http://www.bmreports.com/bsp/additio...s_historic.php

Seems to be a Demand Control Imminent in effect from 10:23 today (11th).

Are these DCI's routine (ie shed some industrial load on those special
tarrifs) or is it bad(TM)?



No they are not.

And its pretty odd. We have lost half a gig of pellet burner - maybe
that's the weekend at that - but are running a massive amount of OCGT.

I suspect something has broken somewhere and caught them on the hop. The
actual demand is not that high.

Tim Watts wrote:

http://www.bmreports.com/bsp/additio...s_historic.php

Seems to be a Demand Control Imminent in effect from 10:23 today (11th).

Are these DCI's routine (ie shed some industrial load on those special
tarrifs) or is it bad(TM)?

DCI seems to be the 3rd level of warning, they're offering to buy at
over half the FIT price for electricity available at 10pm tonight, get
your torch out harry ...

Andy Burns wrote:
Tim Watts wrote:

http://www.bmreports.com/bsp/additio...s_historic.php

Seems to be a Demand Control Imminent in effect from 10:23 today (11th).

Are these DCI's routine (ie shed some industrial load on those special
tarrifs) or is it bad(TM)?

DCI seems to be the 3rd level of warning, they're offering to buy at
over half the FIT price for electricity available at 10pm tonight, get
your torch out harry ...


Golly. 10pm on a saturday night is not a traditional high demand time.


It appears to be a generation shortfall according to BM reports..looks
lie they have shut down a lot of kit for the weekend and now realise its
going to be bloody cold..

The Natural Philosopher wrote:

10pm on a saturday night is not a traditional high demand time.

It appears to be a generation shortfall according to BM reports..looks
lie they have shut down a lot of kit for the weekend and now realise its
going to be bloody cold..

The actual temperatures have undershot their lowest forecast and it's
windy oop North, so risk of losing supply from windmills or due to lines
being brought down?

On Feb 11, 10:55*am, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:
I suspect something has broken somewhere and caught them
on the hop. The actual demand is not that high.

If a HV interconnect has tripped out or sub-station fault, they may
not be able to get sufficient power to one area of the country and
that means running other stations beyond 100% or shedding some demand.

Andy Burns wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote:

10pm on a saturday night is not a traditional high demand time.

It appears to be a generation shortfall according to BM reports..looks
lie they have shut down a lot of kit for the weekend and now realise its
going to be bloody cold..

The actual temperatures have undershot their lowest forecast and it's
windy oop North, so risk of losing supply from windmills or due to lines
being brought down?


Well it's not a 'high wind grid at risk' warning..its a 'generation
shortfall' warning.

Its not windy oop north, either, according to wind forecasts.


I'll dig further..

Hmm. having dug, no hard info anywhere.

France is pulling in less. Its a weekend,
Holland still exporting.
Wind little and dying.
Some Coal and wood going offline for the weekend.
OCGT at high levels.
Nuclear running flat out.
CCGT surprisingly low considering

Reading a bit more into that than is probably justified I'd say some of
the big baseload has shut down for the weekend, the wind isn't there,
and this has got the grid worried as its going to be colder than expected.

Not sure why OCGT rather than CCGT is up however.

RWE says a teensy bit of oil at Fawley is being burnt, but as yet its
not showing on BM reports.

In article ,
says...

in my childhood, 1940s/50s, we used to expect power cuts. But we only
really relied on electricity for lighting. We had coal fires, a gas cooker
and, yes, we had a paraffin lamp which was kept on the kitchen wall.


Ditto - except we only had candles - and a torch readily to hand to fill
the gap until the first one was lit ...

--

Terry

The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Well it's not a 'high wind grid at risk' warning..its a 'generation
shortfall' warning.

buried in the jumble of text in that page

"High risk of circuit trippings and distruption to supplies in Scotland
and North of England due to high winds. Each affected user has been
requested to warn its operational staff to maintain its Plant and/or
Apparatus in the condition it is best able to withstand the anticipated
disturbance"

Its not windy oop north, either, according to wind forecasts.

Given we've had an unusual NW/SE split hovering over GB for the past
week, it seemed feasible, but I didn't check.

Hmm. having dug, no hard info anywhere.

Keep an eye on dynamicdemand around 22:00 ...

Andy Burns wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Well it's not a 'high wind grid at risk' warning..its a 'generation
shortfall' warning.

buried in the jumble of text in that page

"High risk of circuit trippings and distruption to supplies in Scotland
and North of England due to high winds. Each affected user has been
requested to warn its operational staff to maintain its Plant and/or
Apparatus in the condition it is best able to withstand the anticipated
disturbance"

er that is an OLD warning from January..


Its not windy oop north, either, according to wind forecasts.

Given we've had an unusual NW/SE split hovering over GB for the past
week, it seemed feasible, but I didn't check.

Hmm. having dug, no hard info anywhere.

Keep an eye on dynamicdemand around 22:00 ...

The Natural Philosopher wrote:

that is an OLD warning from January..

Ah yes, I did say it was jumbled!

On Feb 11, 11:34*am, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:
Its not windy oop north, either, according to wind forecasts.
....
this has got the grid worried as its going to be colder than expected.

Could well be...

Currently using 20% more energy to heat NOW, than when it was -7oC
overnight & sub-zero during the day. Nearly as much in fact as the
-17oC night and -11oC day in 2011. I have a suspicion it is a
combination of an icy cold wind and brickwork formerly like glass with
frozen rain now melting, so shedding both water & heat.

Entire sides of houses were like thick glass when the rain came in and
froze on contact. Wind is a real enemy of many UK houses, re stripping
heat out of them particularly if bricks/mortar already wet. Overcast
skies mean little solar gain.

js.b1 wrote:
On Feb 11, 11:34 am, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:
Its not windy oop north, either, according to wind forecasts.
...
this has got the grid worried as its going to be colder than expected.

Could well be...

Currently using 20% more energy to heat NOW, than when it was -7oC
overnight & sub-zero during the day. Nearly as much in fact as the
-17oC night and -11oC day in 2011. I have a suspicion it is a
combination of an icy cold wind and brickwork formerly like glass with
frozen rain now melting, so shedding both water & heat.

Entire sides of houses were like thick glass when the rain came in and
froze on contact. Wind is a real enemy of many UK houses, re stripping
heat out of them particularly if bricks/mortar already wet. Overcast
skies mean little solar gain.

yep. windchill works on houses too.


Fortunately here while it's -7C or so, it's almost dead calm, and sunny,
and with the woodburner in the bedroom and two dogs and a cat climbing
on the bed we were cosy as hell last night...

Huge wrote:
And Japan never has. They have 2 different kinds of leccy according to where
you are in the country.

Yes, but there it's clearly geographically differentiated. You don't
find different flavour electricity in different suburbs of Tokyo.
It's the equivalent to the Wier Committee ending up with Scotland
and non-Scotland having different electricity standards.

JGH

In message
,
jgharston writes
(I suppose with appropriate technology gas-powered transport
would be a suitable use, but I prefer vehicles that don't
need pressure vessels to contain their fuel.)
The technology is around and well proven. Easy to install and use for
propane of which we have a surplus in the UK. The vessels are just the
same as the bog standard bottles used for barbecues, and patio heaters,
caravans and domestic heating tanks.

Compressed natural gas is a bit of a different ball game.
--
hugh

In message , charles
writes
In article ,
Tim Watts wrote:
Dave Liquorice wrote:

On Fri, 10 Feb 2012 16:27:32 +0000, Tim Watts wrote:

I suspect a lot of protestors (ie the "fashional protestor" as opposed
to the ones with deeply held core beliefs) will have a sudden awakening
when their lights go out 4 times a week for 3-5 hours throughout the
entire winter.

Remember the 3 day week and power cuts on rota published in the
newspapers?


Ah yes - I was there too. As a kid, it was hilarious fun. Huddled around
the coal fire (as the CH was dead), mother producing sandwiches if the
cut happened to prevented cooking at the usual time. Parafin lamp.

I think the difference was: people knew it was down to the unions and it
would get sorted in the short term. Imagine the panic if someone told the
country "it will take several years to get additional generation on line -
this will happen every winter".

in my childhood, 1940s/50s, we used to expect power cuts. But we only
really relied on electricity for lighting. We had coal fires, a gas cooker
and, yes, we had a paraffin lamp which was kept on the kitchen wall.

Now we're getting a feel for the oldest posters on the group :-)
--
hugh

On Fri, 10 Feb 2012 14:06:59 +0000 Nightjar wrote :
Hydro is good, if you have the places to
build it, which Britain is fairly short of.

But it that because the focus has been on huge dams. After a visit to
Rochester, NY, where I saw several small hydro plants along the river I
suggested here that such a thing might be possible in the UK at places
like Teddington Lock and it may yet happen http://www.hamhydro.org/

--
Tony Bryer, Greentram: 'Software to build on',
Melbourne, Australia www.greentram.com

On 11/02/12 08:43, charles wrote:
In article ,
Tim Watts wrote:


I think the difference was: people knew it was down to the unions and it
would get sorted in the short term. Imagine the panic if someone told the
country "it will take several years to get additional generation on line -
this will happen every winter".

in my childhood, 1940s/50s, we used to expect power cuts. But we only
really relied on electricity for lighting. We had coal fires, a gas cooker
and, yes, we had a paraffin lamp which was kept on the kitchen wall.


Still had them in my 60's childhood, and we lived in sight of the power
station at Brimsdown


--
djc

In article ,
Tony Bryer wrote:
On Fri, 10 Feb 2012 14:06:59 +0000 Nightjar wrote :
Hydro is good, if you have the places to
build it, which Britain is fairly short of.

But it that because the focus has been on huge dams. After a visit to
Rochester, NY, where I saw several small hydro plants along the river I
suggested here that such a thing might be possible in the UK at places
like Teddington Lock and it may yet happen http://www.hamhydro.org/

there's also a small one on the River Wey at Guildford

--
From KT24

Using a RISC OS computer running v5.16

On Fri, 10 Feb 2012 16:56:11 -0800 (PST), js.b1 wrote:

I can see a 100% rise in energy prices within 4-5yrs, and a savage
backlash.

My current lecky tarrif runs out on 31st March. Got the letter from
the supplier the other day, reminding me and that I'll be
automagically switched to another tarrif as per the contract. No
problem with that, except the new tarrif involves a price rise of
47%!

A brief wander around the switching sites and *all* the options show
*negative* savings of £150 or more. B-(

Who are OVO? Are they the ones with the contract term to give you the
rate on the day of transfer rather than what they "quote" you? OVO
are offering 0.26p/unit cheaper than the next best (My current
supplier) and £50 less standing charge. Not sure the agro of
switching supplier is worth the £70 I'll save bearing in mind the
slightly more expensive tarrif is fixed until Apr '13. I think the
OVO offering is variable...

--
Cheers
Dave.

hugh wrote:
In message , charles
writes
in my childhood, 1940s/50s, we used to expect power cuts. But we only
really relied on electricity for lighting. We had coal fires, a gas
cooker
and, yes, we had a paraffin lamp which was kept on the kitchen wall.

Now we're getting a feel for the oldest posters on the group :-)

Looks over shoulder at three Aladdin table lamps complete with mantles
lined up for use if needed. And at handy torch...

--
Tciao for Now!

John.

En el artículo , Andy
Champ escribió:

On tidal BTW - I'm in favour of using Morecambe Bay _and_ the Severn.
But you need both to get steady flow. And that's not enough to make
much difference (someone said 14GW?). And there aren't any other sites...

The Mersey.

--
(\_/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")

Tony Bryer wrote:
On Fri, 10 Feb 2012 14:06:59 +0000 Nightjar wrote :
Hydro is good, if you have the places to
build it, which Britain is fairly short of.

But it that because the focus has been on huge dams.

Er no. There are LOTS of little hydro installations in the UK.

After a visit to
Rochester, NY, where I saw several small hydro plants along the river I
suggested here that such a thing might be possible in the UK at places
like Teddington Lock and it may yet happen http://www.hamhydro.org/


It is not worth trying to extract energy out of a low head. There is so
little there at all in the first place.

The same sized installation will generate far far more if its at te foot
of a waterfall etc.

A lot of small sites with reasonable falls are actually exploited in the
UK - I think there are around 20 plus hydro installs.
Wiki sez:

Back Barrow Hydro 0.325 MW
Beeston, Nottinghamshire 1.66 MW, currently the largest Run of
River Hydroelectric plant in England.
Belper North Mill 350kW
Biddulph Park 3kW
Borrowash Mill, 0.179 MW
Brignall Mill 3kW
Burton Mill, 0.068 MW
Cotton Valley Sewage Works 15kW
Cuckney School, Nottinghamshire 7kW
Delank Quarry 0.3 MW
Earthbalance Centre 7kW
Gants Mill Somerset 12kW
Glen Lyn Gorge 0.3 MW
Guildford Mill 40kW
Hamlyn Mill 7kW
Houghton Mill 16kW
Itteringham Mill 4kW
Kielder Water 12 MW, England's largest hydroelectric plant.
Lynmouth Hydro 0.305 MW
Marlingford Mill 12kW
Marsh Mill 6kW
Masson Mill, River Derwent, Derbyshire 260kW
Milford Mill 180kW
Old Walls Hydro, Dartmoor, 0.076 MW
Oswestry, Llanfordda, 0.363 MW
Oldcotes Mill 3kW
Ponts Mill Hydro Scheme 0.2 MW
River Dart Country Park, Dartmoor, 0.048 MW
Sonning Mill 16kW
St. Blazey, 0.2 MW
Sturston Mill 1.5kW
Talamh Life Centre 4kW
Tellisford Mill, Somerset, part of the Mendip Power Group 75kW
Trecarrell Mill Hydro Scheme, 0.03 MW
Trelubbas Hydro Scheme, 0.175 MW

Now that is England

Scotland is too hard to cut and paste but there are lots of little hydro
schemes..and a few not so little ones

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...Hydro-electric

Wales has a few as well.

On 11/02/2012 23:25, charles wrote:
In ,
Tony wrote:
On Fri, 10 Feb 2012 14:06:59 +0000 Nightjar wrote :
Hydro is good, if you have the places to
build it, which Britain is fairly short of.

But it that because the focus has been on huge dams. After a visit to
Rochester, NY, where I saw several small hydro plants along the river I
suggested here that such a thing might be possible in the UK at places
like Teddington Lock and it may yet happen http://www.hamhydro.org/

there's also a small one on the River Wey at Guildford

And the Thames, further upstream

http://www.archimedeshydroscrew.com/...screw-turbine/

Gah. Unwrapped

http://tinyurl.com/7amjrzl

Andy