I think that most people's response to yesterday's thread about an
external stat to control a pond heater was "I wouldn't start from here!"
- and no-one identified any suitable stats.

I have another application for one - but Google hasn't come up with
anything sensible.

The insurers for my holiday flat are tightening up the cover for damage
due to water escape - and require either that all water is drained when
the flat is unoccupied between November and March, or that the heating
is left on all the time in order to maintain a temperature of at least
13 degrees. We use the flat for about one week in four - even in the
winter - and it would be totally impractical to drain the sealed CH
system and unvented HW cylinder after each period of occupancy. The
heating is controlled by a wireless room stat with a frost setting which
I *could* set to 13 degrees - but that would cost a fortune in gas. [Our
practice so far has been to turn off the water and gas, and to rely on
the fact that the flats below and above are permanently occupied and
heated - thus reducing the risk of out flat getting cold enough for the
pipes to freeze and burst].

If I go down the road of leaving the heating on, I can't see any point
in running it unless it is freezing outside. It seems to me that what I
need is an external thermostat - switching on at (say) 1 degC - wired in
series with the roomstat. It would, of course, need a by-pass switch for
when the flat is occupied - but this could be separate and not part of
the stat itself.

I think that what I actually want is a manual stat with an operating
range of a few degrees either side of zero, and with an external sensor.
[The stat itself doesn't need to be weather-proof as long as the remote
sensor is.]

Any idea where I might find such a beast?

TIA.
--
Cheers,
Roger
____________
Please reply to Newsgroup. Whilst email address is valid, it is seldom
checked.

On Tue, 07 Feb 2012 12:52:13 +0000, Roger Mills wrote:

I *could* set to 13 degrees - but that would cost a fortune in gas. [Our
practice so far has been to turn off the water and gas, and to rely on
the fact that the flats below and above are permanently occupied and
heated - thus reducing the risk of out flat getting cold enough for the
pipes to freeze and burst].

I think you might be surprised how long it takes an empty place to
cool to 13C even in the depths of winter. Particularly with occupied
flats above and below. And it won't take much gas to keep it there
either. Heat loss is proportional to temperature difference, smaller
the difference the smaller the loss.

If I go down the road of leaving the heating on, I can't see any point
in running it unless it is freezing outside. It seems to me that what I
need is an external thermostat - switching on at (say) 1 degC - wired in
series with the roomstat.

You could but then if the temp inside dropped below 13C your
insurance (if they found out) might reject your claim, slippery
beggars that they are. They could find out by simply of spotting the
series frost stat and override switch and asking awkward questions
(unlikely though). Remember if the place has frozen they will be
looking to check the heating was functioning...

Of course a lot depends on the location and aspect of the flat. Where
is it, Cornish Riviera or Scottish Highlands?

Another thing to consider is damp. An unheated place will suffer damp
when surfaces/objects fall below the dewpoint, 13C should keep the
place above the dewpoint most of the time.

--
Cheers
Dave.

On Feb 7, 12:52*pm, Roger Mills wrote:
I think that most people's response to yesterday's thread about an
external stat to control a pond heater was "I wouldn't start from here!"
- and no-one identified any suitable stats.

I have another application for one - but Google hasn't come up with
anything sensible.

The insurers for my holiday flat are tightening up the cover for damage
due to water escape - and require either that all water is drained when
the flat is unoccupied between November and March, or that the heating
is left on all the time in order to maintain a temperature of at least
13 degrees. We use the flat for about one week in four - even in the
winter - and it would be totally impractical to drain the sealed CH
system and unvented HW cylinder after each period of occupancy. The
heating is controlled by a wireless room stat with a frost setting which
I *could* set to 13 degrees - but that would cost a fortune in gas. [Our
practice so far has been to turn off the water and gas, and to rely on
the fact that the flats below and above are permanently occupied and
heated - thus reducing the risk of out flat getting cold enough for the
pipes to freeze and burst].

If I go down the road of leaving the heating on, I can't see any point
in running it unless it is freezing outside. It seems to me that what I
need is an external thermostat - switching on at (say) 1 degC - wired in
series with the roomstat. It would, of course, need a by-pass switch for
when the flat is occupied - but this could be separate and not part of
the stat itself.

I think that what I actually want is a manual stat with an operating
range of a few degrees either side of zero, and with an external sensor.
[The stat itself doesn't need to be weather-proof as long as the remote
sensor is.]

Any idea where I might find such a beast?

TIA.

If you can count on some heat from at least one of the enighbouring
flats, you can presumably set your trip point to below 0C exterior
temp. The usual temp setting for frost protection is 5C. Another
option is heating tape on all pipework, far cheaper to run, and again
can be on a frost stat.


NT

On 07/02/2012 14:59, Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Tue, 07 Feb 2012 12:52:13 +0000, Roger Mills wrote:


If I go down the road of leaving the heating on, I can't see any point
in running it unless it is freezing outside. It seems to me that what I
need is an external thermostat - switching on at (say) 1 degC - wired in
series with the roomstat.

You could but then if the temp inside dropped below 13C your
insurance (if they found out) might reject your claim, slippery
beggars that they are. They could find out by simply of spotting the
series frost stat and override switch and asking awkward questions
(unlikely though). Remember if the place has frozen they will be
looking to check the heating was functioning...

Yes, I know. The object of the exercise though is to prevent it freezing
so that a burst pipe claim never arises, but to minimise the cost of
doing so.

Of course a lot depends on the location and aspect of the flat. Where
is it, Cornish Riviera or Scottish Highlands?

It's in the New Forest. It's in a Georgian house which has been
converted into flats - some of which are lived in all the time and
others used as holiday flats. Our flat is on the first floor, and has
north, east and south aspects.

Another thing to consider is damp. An unheated place will suffer damp
when surfaces/objects fall below the dewpoint, 13C should keep the
place above the dewpoint most of the time.


Well, we went through last winter with no heating at all when the flat
was unoccupied, and that doesn't appear to have been a problem.

I could do with some device for recording the internal temperature when
we're not there. A max/min thermometer would provide *some* information,
but wouldn't tell us *when* it was cold, and for how long. Something
which records the temperature every couple of hours - without costing an
arm and a leg - would be better. Any ideas, anyone?
--
Cheers,
Roger
____________
Please reply to Newsgroup. Whilst email address is valid, it is seldom
checked.

On Tue, 07 Feb 2012 16:35:48 +0000, Roger Mills wrote:

On 07/02/2012 14:59, Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Tue, 07 Feb 2012 12:52:13 +0000, Roger Mills wrote:


If I go down the road of leaving the heating on, I can't see any point
in running it unless it is freezing outside. It seems to me that what
I need is an external thermostat - switching on at (say) 1 degC -
wired in series with the roomstat.

You could but then if the temp inside dropped below 13C your insurance
(if they found out) might reject your claim, slippery beggars that they
are. They could find out by simply of spotting the series frost stat
and override switch and asking awkward questions (unlikely though).
Remember if the place has frozen they will be looking to check the
heating was functioning...

Yes, I know. The object of the exercise though is to prevent it freezing
so that a burst pipe claim never arises, but to minimise the cost of
doing so.

Of course a lot depends on the location and aspect of the flat. Where
is it, Cornish Riviera or Scottish Highlands?

It's in the New Forest. It's in a Georgian house which has been
converted into flats - some of which are lived in all the time and
others used as holiday flats. Our flat is on the first floor, and has
north, east and south aspects.

Another thing to consider is damp. An unheated place will suffer damp
when surfaces/objects fall below the dewpoint, 13C should keep the
place above the dewpoint most of the time.


Well, we went through last winter with no heating at all when the flat
was unoccupied, and that doesn't appear to have been a problem.

I could do with some device for recording the internal temperature when
we're not there. A max/min thermometer would provide *some* information,
but wouldn't tell us *when* it was cold, and for how long. Something
which records the temperature every couple of hours - without costing an
arm and a leg - would be better. Any ideas, anyone?

Cheep weather station type thing?

Avpx

On Tue, 07 Feb 2012 16:35:48 +0000, Roger Mills wrote:

Yes, I know. The object of the exercise though is to prevent it freezing
so that a burst pipe claim never arises, but to minimise the cost of
doing so.

But are the costs involved in designing/buying/installing extra
control systems less than the cost of gas saved?

Say the parts cost £30, stat, enclosure(s), cable, connectors etc not
unreasonable. How much gas can you buy for £30, how long would that
keep the place above 13C.

It's like the therostat for the pond heater thread, leaving the thing
on 24/7 for 6 weeks only uses £5 of electricity, can't buy a suitable
stat £5 let alone all the other bits that would be required.

An unheated place will suffer damp when surfaces/objects fall
below the
dewpoint, 13C should keep the place above the dewpoint most of the

time.

Well, we went through last winter with no heating at all when the flat
was unoccupied, and that doesn't appear to have been a problem.

Well if it didn't freeze last year... you may be worrying about
nothing. Damp in this case isn't damp as in patches on the plaster or
running down the windows. Buts just a general wetness that will
encourage mildew on organic things make the furnishings "musty", bed
clothes cold and clammy.

Something which records the temperature every couple of hours - without
costing an arm and a leg - would be better. Any ideas, anyone?

JFGI - "usb temperature logger"

Cheap one at random from the first page:

http://cpc.farnell.com/jsp/displayPr...sp?sku=IN04739

4,000 readings @ 30 min intervals is 83 1/3 days. £27.60 inc VAT

You can get ones with programable intervals and more storage.

--
Cheers
Dave.

On 07/02/2012 12:52, Roger Mills wrote:

I think that what I actually want is a manual stat with an operating
range of a few degrees either side of zero, and with an external sensor.
[The stat itself doesn't need to be weather-proof as long as the remote
sensor is.]

Any idea where I might find such a beast?

Straggling OT once again....
Why not dose the system up with an anti-freeze specific inhibitor.
The flat above our shop which is now re-rated as commercial storage due
to "limitations" gets a 10 minute burn around midnight Saturdays and
Sunday to keep the zone valve (seperating shop from flat) flexing it's
muscles,the pump spinning over, not to mention giving the water a
regular shove about and a swift injection of heat to reduce chance of
freezing pipes.
I leave it set like that through the summer too just to keep things in GWO.

--
http://www.GymRatZ.co.uk
Where Gym Equipment and WaterRowers get personally reviewd.

On 07/02/2012 12:52, Roger Mills wrote:
I think that most people's response to yesterday's thread about an
external stat to control a pond heater was "I wouldn't start from here!"
- and no-one identified any suitable stats.

I have another application for one - but Google hasn't come up with
anything sensible.

The insurers for my holiday flat are tightening up the cover for damage
due to water escape - and require either that all water is drained when
the flat is unoccupied between November and March, or that the heating
is left on all the time in order to maintain a temperature of at least
13 degrees. We use the flat for about one week in four - even in the
winter - and it would be totally impractical to drain the sealed CH
system and unvented HW cylinder after each period of occupancy. The
heating is controlled by a wireless room stat with a frost setting which
I *could* set to 13 degrees - but that would cost a fortune in gas. [Our
practice so far has been to turn off the water and gas, and to rely on
the fact that the flats below and above are permanently occupied and
heated - thus reducing the risk of out flat getting cold enough for the
pipes to freeze and burst].

If I go down the road of leaving the heating on, I can't see any point
in running it unless it is freezing outside. It seems to me that what I
need is an external thermostat - switching on at (say) 1 degC - wired in
series with the roomstat. It would, of course, need a by-pass switch for
when the flat is occupied - but this could be separate and not part of
the stat itself.

I think that what I actually want is a manual stat with an operating
range of a few degrees either side of zero, and with an external sensor.
[The stat itself doesn't need to be weather-proof as long as the remote
sensor is.]

Any idea where I might find such a beast?

TIA.

1 Has the flat got any water storage? If the water to the flat is
turned off after you leave the flat, what's the most damage that could
be done?

2 I presume the boiler has a latching over-temp cut-out and is a sealed
system, such that if there was any water loss, the boiler wouldn't fire
up from reduced pressure? So inherently a safe system, or as safe as
can be.

For one year I might be tempted to leave the stat at 13degsC just to see
how much gas is actually used, and keep a log. Another alternative is
to find another insurer, but the cost of water damage to your flat, and
to ones below would be not inconsiderable, so I don't blame them for
making such stipulations.

Personally I leave my stat at 10degsC.

Roger Mills wrote:
I think that most people's response to yesterday's thread about an
external stat to control a pond heater was "I wouldn't start from
here!" - and no-one identified any suitable stats.

I have another application for one - but Google hasn't come up with
anything sensible.

The insurers for my holiday flat are tightening up the cover for
damage due to water escape - and require either that all water is
drained when the flat is unoccupied between November and March, or
that the heating is left on all the time in order to maintain a
temperature of at least 13 degrees.

Bloody hell. MM would have a heart attack if he had to heat his house to 13
degrees and he lives in his house:-)


--
Adam

On 07/02/2012 19:23, Fredxx wrote:


1 Has the flat got any water storage? If the water to the flat is turned
off after you leave the flat, what's the most damage that could be done?


There's no cold water storage. There's an unvented hot cylinder holding
maybe 25 gallons of water in the same cupboard as the boiler. If that
burst, most of the water would probably seep through the floor into the
flat below rather than doing much damage to our flat. [I'm guessing that
that would be covered by the Public Liability part of my insurance
policy even if water damage to my flat was excluded]

There's also the water in the (sealed) CH system - 8 radiators, I think
- none of them massive.

2 I presume the boiler has a latching over-temp cut-out and is a sealed
system, such that if there was any water loss, the boiler wouldn't fire
up from reduced pressure? So inherently a safe system, or as safe as can
be.

I think there's a latching over-temp trip - not 100% sure whether it's
active [ISTR that it can be bridged when the boiler is used with a
gravity HW circuit (which mine isn't)]. I presume that the boiler won't
fire if the pressure is too low - but again, I'm not absolutely sure.

For one year I might be tempted to leave the stat at 13degsC just to see
how much gas is actually used, and keep a log. Another alternative is to
find another insurer, but the cost of water damage to your flat, and to
ones below would be not inconsiderable, so I don't blame them for making
such stipulations.


I doubt whether changing insurers would help. When we bought the flat
two years ago, we looked at insurers and this one had by far the best
cover and the least exclusions when the property is unoccupied - it's
just a pity that they are catching up with the rest. I would really like
to find a way of logging the temperatures for a while to see what
happens inside with no heating when it's freezing outside. Leaving the
heating on would scupper that - but if I don't, I risk invalidating the
insurance.
--
Cheers,
Roger
____________
Please reply to Newsgroup. Whilst email address is valid, it is seldom
checked.

On 07/02/2012 16:49, The Nomad wrote:
On Tue, 07 Feb 2012 16:35:48 +0000, Roger Mills wrote:

On 07/02/2012 14:59, Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Tue, 07 Feb 2012 12:52:13 +0000, Roger Mills wrote:


If I go down the road of leaving the heating on, I can't see any point
in running it unless it is freezing outside. It seems to me that what
I need is an external thermostat - switching on at (say) 1 degC -
wired in series with the roomstat.

You could but then if the temp inside dropped below 13C your insurance
(if they found out) might reject your claim, slippery beggars that they
are. They could find out by simply of spotting the series frost stat
and override switch and asking awkward questions (unlikely though).
Remember if the place has frozen they will be looking to check the
heating was functioning...

Yes, I know. The object of the exercise though is to prevent it freezing
so that a burst pipe claim never arises, but to minimise the cost of
doing so.

Of course a lot depends on the location and aspect of the flat. Where
is it, Cornish Riviera or Scottish Highlands?

It's in the New Forest. It's in a Georgian house which has been
converted into flats - some of which are lived in all the time and
others used as holiday flats. Our flat is on the first floor, and has
north, east and south aspects.

Another thing to consider is damp. An unheated place will suffer damp
when surfaces/objects fall below the dewpoint, 13C should keep the
place above the dewpoint most of the time.


Well, we went through last winter with no heating at all when the flat
was unoccupied, and that doesn't appear to have been a problem.

I could do with some device for recording the internal temperature when
we're not there. A max/min thermometer would provide *some* information,
but wouldn't tell us *when* it was cold, and for how long. Something
which records the temperature every couple of hours - without costing an
arm and a leg - would be better. Any ideas, anyone?

Cheep weather station type thing?

Avpx

Just get the proper item for the job - they're around 35 quid.

http://www.lascarelectronics.com/tem...datalogger=101

SteveW

On 07/02/2012 17:27, Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Tue, 07 Feb 2012 16:35:48 +0000, Roger Mills wrote:

The object of the exercise though is to prevent it freezing
so that a burst pipe claim never arises, but to minimise the cost of
doing so.

But are the costs involved in designing/buying/installing extra
control systems less than the cost of gas saved?

Say the parts cost £30, stat, enclosure(s), cable, connectors etc not
unreasonable. How much gas can you buy for £30, how long would that
keep the place above 13C.

Don't know for sure, but the economics are completely different from
pond heaters. When we are in the flat in the winter, the marginal cost
of gas is about £2.50 per day to heat the place to a comfortable
temperature during waking hours. If it costs (say) a fifth of that (50p
per day) to keep the place at 13C on a 24x7 basis, that's £15 per month.
So the question then is how much of that would be saved by only heating
the flat to 13C when it's freezing outside. My guess is quite a lot of
it - but quantifying it exactly isn't really possible without a lot more
information (which is why I would like to monitor the temperatures
without any heating).

It's like the therostat for the pond heater thread, leaving the thing
on 24/7 for 6 weeks only uses £5 of electricity, can't buy a suitable
stat £5 let alone all the other bits that would be required.


No - I think we're talking about an average of a hell of lot more than
60 watts!


Well, we went through last winter with no heating at all when the flat
was unoccupied, and that doesn't appear to have been a problem.

Well if it didn't freeze last year... you may be worrying about
nothing.

Quite possibly. I don't *think* it's going to freeze if unheated - but
the worrying bit is that I would no longer be insured if it *did*.


Something which records the temperature every couple of hours - without
costing an arm and a leg - would be better. Any ideas, anyone?

JFGI - "usb temperature logger"

Cheap one at random from the first page:

http://cpc.farnell.com/jsp/displayPr...sp?sku=IN04739

4,000 readings @ 30 min intervals is 83 1/3 days. £27.60 inc VAT

You can get ones with programable intervals and more storage.


Interesting - thanks. The only trouble with that one is that the battery
has to be replaced every month, and the software doesn't appear to run
on anything later than XP. The next model up would probably be a better bet.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/LASCAR-USB...item1c22e8769b

I had also found
http://www.loggershop.co.uk/index.ph...&productId=172 at £19
+ VAT - but it requires a £30 device to connect it to a USB port. Would
be better for anyone who wants several, because you only need one
interface unit.
--
Cheers,
Roger
____________
Please reply to Newsgroup. Whilst email address is valid, it is seldom
checked.

On Tue, 07 Feb 2012 12:52:13 +0000, Roger Mills wrote:

If I go down the road of leaving the heating on, I can't see any point
in running it unless it is freezing outside. It seems to me that what I
need is an external thermostat - switching on at (say) 1 degC - wired in
series with the roomstat. It would, of course, need a by-pass switch for
when the flat is occupied - but this could be separate and not part of
the stat itself.

Recently bought one from EBay trader ROBLAIGHT.


--
John Stumbles -- http://yaph.co.uk

Never believe anyone who claims to be a liar

On 07/02/2012 23:40, YAPH wrote:
On Tue, 07 Feb 2012 12:52:13 +0000, Roger Mills wrote:

If I go down the road of leaving the heating on, I can't see any point
in running it unless it is freezing outside. It seems to me that what I
need is an external thermostat - switching on at (say) 1 degC - wired in
series with the roomstat. It would, of course, need a by-pass switch for
when the flat is occupied - but this could be separate and not part of
the stat itself.

Recently bought one from EBay trader ROBLAIGHT.



Thanks - but I can't find him/her! Do you have an item number?
--
Cheers,
Roger
____________
Please reply to Newsgroup. Whilst email address is valid, it is seldom
checked.

In article ,
"www.GymRatZ.co.uk" writes:
On 07/02/2012 12:52, Roger Mills wrote:

I think that what I actually want is a manual stat with an operating
range of a few degrees either side of zero, and with an external sensor.
[The stat itself doesn't need to be weather-proof as long as the remote
sensor is.]

Any idea where I might find such a beast?

Straggling OT once again....
Why not dose the system up with an anti-freeze specific inhibitor.

Expense?
Andy Hall had an outdoor workshop which he heated from the boiler
in the house via a plate exchanger to a separate outdoor circuit.
The outdoor circuit was dosed with anti-freeze. It was sufficiently
expensive that he designed in the ability to drain the circuit into
a collection tank if any maintenance was required, and to refill
from that tank, rather than to lose the anti-freeze.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

In article ,
Roger Mills writes:
I think that most people's response to yesterday's thread about an
external stat to control a pond heater was "I wouldn't start from here!"
- and no-one identified any suitable stats.

I have another application for one - but Google hasn't come up with
anything sensible.

The insurers for my holiday flat are tightening up the cover for damage
due to water escape - and require either that all water is drained when
the flat is unoccupied between November and March, or that the heating
is left on all the time in order to maintain a temperature of at least
13 degrees. We use the flat for about one week in four - even in the
winter - and it would be totally impractical to drain the sealed CH
system and unvented HW cylinder after each period of occupancy. The
heating is controlled by a wireless room stat with a frost setting which
I *could* set to 13 degrees - but that would cost a fortune in gas. [Our
practice so far has been to turn off the water and gas, and to rely on
the fact that the flats below and above are permanently occupied and
heated - thus reducing the risk of out flat getting cold enough for the
pipes to freeze and burst].

Had a similar situation with a relative's empty home.
Insurance required min of 16C or drain down and shut off water.
Otherwise, wouldn't pay for frozen pipe damage/repair.

I decided to go for 10C (IIRC), and shut off water, and remote
monitoring. With a sealed heating system, even if it does burst,
the amount of water damage is going to be limited, and I'd
probably end up fixing it anyway rather than claiming.

Can't help thinking that a H/W storage cylinder is perhaps not
a good choice for occasional occupancy.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

On Feb 7, 8:19*pm, Roger Mills wrote:
On 07/02/2012 19:23, Fredxx wrote:



1 Has the flat got any water storage? If the water to the flat is turned
off after you leave the flat, what's the most damage that could be done?

There's no cold water storage. There's an unvented hot cylinder holding
maybe 25 gallons of water in the same cupboard as the boiler. If that
burst, most of the water would probably seep through the floor into the
flat below rather than doing much damage to our flat. [I'm guessing that
that would be covered by the Public Liability part of my insurance
policy even if water damage to my flat was excluded]

There's also the water in the (sealed) CH system - 8 radiators, I think
- none of them massive.

2 I presume the boiler has a latching over-temp cut-out and is a sealed
system, such that if there was any water loss, the boiler wouldn't fire
up from reduced pressure? So inherently a safe system, or as safe as can
be.

I think there's a latching over-temp trip - not 100% sure whether it's
active [ISTR that it can be bridged when the boiler is used with a
gravity HW circuit (which mine isn't)]. I presume that the boiler won't
fire if the pressure is too low - but again, I'm *not absolutely sure.

For one year I might be tempted to leave the stat at 13degsC just to see
how much gas is actually used, and keep a log. Another alternative is to
find another insurer, but the cost of water damage to your flat, and to
ones below would be not inconsiderable, so I don't blame them for making
such stipulations.

I doubt whether changing insurers would help. When we bought the flat
two years ago, we looked at insurers and this one had by far the best
cover and the least exclusions when the property is unoccupied - it's
just a pity that they are catching up with the rest. I would really like
to find a way of logging the temperatures for a while to see what
happens inside with no heating when it's freezing outside. Leaving the
heating on would scupper that - but if I don't, I risk invalidating the
insurance.

Maybe its time to assess the no insurance option?


NT

On Feb 7, 7:23*pm, Fredxx wrote:
On 07/02/2012 12:52, Roger Mills wrote:









I think that most people's response to yesterday's thread about an
external stat to control a pond heater was "I wouldn't start from here!"
- and no-one identified any suitable stats.

I have another application for one - but Google hasn't come up with
anything sensible.

The insurers for my holiday flat are tightening up the cover for damage
due to water escape - and require either that all water is drained when
the flat is unoccupied between November and March, or that the heating
is left on all the time in order to maintain a temperature of at least
13 degrees. We use the flat for about one week in four - even in the
winter - and it would be totally impractical to drain the sealed CH
system and unvented HW cylinder after each period of occupancy. The
heating is controlled by a wireless room stat with a frost setting which
I *could* set to 13 degrees - but that would cost a fortune in gas. [Our
practice so far has been to turn off the water and gas, and to rely on
the fact that the flats below and above are permanently occupied and
heated - thus reducing the risk of out flat getting cold enough for the
pipes to freeze and burst].

If I go down the road of leaving the heating on, I can't see any point
in running it unless it is freezing outside. It seems to me that what I
need is an external thermostat - switching on at (say) 1 degC - wired in
series with the roomstat. It would, of course, need a by-pass switch for
when the flat is occupied - but this could be separate and not part of
the stat itself.

I think that what I actually want is a manual stat with an operating
range of a few degrees either side of zero, and with an external sensor..
[The stat itself doesn't need to be weather-proof as long as the remote
sensor is.]

Any idea where I might find such a beast?

TIA.

1 *Has the flat got any water storage? *If the water to the flat is
turned off after you leave the flat, what's the most damage that could
be done?

2 I presume the boiler has a latching over-temp cut-out and is a sealed
system, such that if there was any water loss, the boiler wouldn't fire
up from *reduced pressure? *So inherently a safe system, or as safe as
can be.

For one year I might be tempted to leave the stat at 13degsC just to see
how much gas is actually used, and keep a log. *Another alternative is
to find another insurer, but the cost of water damage to your flat, and
to ones below would be not inconsiderable, so I don't blame them for
making such stipulations.

Personally I leave my stat at 10degsC.

Are you suggesting it is cheaper to run your heating all day rather
than just in the mornings and evenings?

Jonathan

On Tue, 07 Feb 2012 22:33:02 +0000, Roger Mills wrote:

But are the costs involved in designing/buying/installing extra
control systems less than the cost of gas saved?

Say the parts cost £30, stat, enclosure(s), cable, connectors etc
not
unreasonable. How much gas can you buy for £30, how long would
that
keep the place above 13C.

Don't know for sure, but the economics are completely different from
pond heaters. When we are in the flat in the winter, the marginal cost
of gas is about £2.50 per day to heat the place to a comfortable
temperature during waking hours. If it costs (say) a fifth of that (50p
per day) to keep the place at 13C on a 24x7 basis, that's £15 per month.

They seem sensible ball park figures, though I'm sort of surprised
that you need £2.50 of gas/day. At 10p/kWh (and I don't think gas is
that expensive, 5p/kWh more like it?) that is 25 to 50 kWh of energy
which seems a lot for flat.

With the "waste" heat from the neighbours I don't think you'd need
50p/day (5 to 10 kWh) to keep it above 13C as I don't think it would
get that cool very often. That temperature gradient thing again as
your place cools the greater the temperature gradient and the more
heat flows from your neighbours into your flat. B-)

A temp logger will show the temperature profile but not how much
energy has been used. You need to take readings from the gas meter
for that.

Quite possibly. I don't *think* it's going to freeze if unheated - but
the worrying bit is that I would no longer be insured if it *did*.

And the damage to the flat below could be quite expensive, new
ceilings, replaster walls (or replace plasterboard), carpets,
decoration, perhaps some furnishings...

Interesting - thanks. The only trouble with that one is that the battery
has to be replaced every month,

I did say "Cheap one at random from the first page", unless it's a
really wierd battery I'm sure a larger capacity one could be
attached. Seems a bit odd to have an 83 day logging cycle but only a
30 day battery life. But didn't you say you use the place one week
out of every four so it's only empty for 21 days. B-)

.... and the software doesn't appear to run on anything later than XP.

The Lascar website says that the software for the -LITE and -1 temp
data loggers runs under "Windows 2000/XP/Vista/7". Both are "suitable
for new designs".

--
Cheers
Dave.

On 08/02/2012 00:38, Andrew Gabriel wrote:

Had a similar situation with a relative's empty home.
Insurance required min of 16C or drain down and shut off water.
Otherwise, wouldn't pay for frozen pipe damage/repair.

I decided to go for 10C (IIRC), and shut off water, and remote
monitoring.

How did you implement that?


With a sealed heating system, even if it does burst,
the amount of water damage is going to be limited, and I'd
probably end up fixing it anyway rather than claiming.

Ditto. It could damage the carpets, though.

Can't help thinking that a H/W storage cylinder is perhaps not
a good choice for occasional occupancy.


It was installed by the previous owner who lived in the flat full time
during in the winter and went to France for the summer. It's an unvented
cylinder, and very heavily insulated - so would need a long period of
very low temperatures before it froze.
--
Cheers,
Roger
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On 08/02/2012 00:27, Andrew Gabriel wrote:
In ,
writes:
On 07/02/2012 12:52, Roger Mills wrote:

I think that what I actually want is a manual stat with an operating
range of a few degrees either side of zero, and with an external sensor.
[The stat itself doesn't need to be weather-proof as long as the remote
sensor is.]

Any idea where I might find such a beast?

Straggling OT once again....
Why not dose the system up with an anti-freeze specific inhibitor.

Expense?
Andy Hall had an outdoor workshop which he heated from the boiler
in the house via a plate exchanger to a separate outdoor circuit.
The outdoor circuit was dosed with anti-freeze. It was sufficiently
expensive that he designed in the ability to drain the circuit into
a collection tank if any maintenance was required, and to refill
from that tank, rather than to lose the anti-freeze.


Also, in strict terms, it wouldn't meet the conditions laid down by the
insurers.
--
Cheers,
Roger
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On 08/02/2012 01:02, NT wrote:
On Feb 7, 8:19 pm, Roger wrote:


I doubt whether changing insurers would help. When we bought the flat
two years ago, we looked at insurers and this one had by far the best
cover and the least exclusions when the property is unoccupied - it's
just a pity that they are catching up with the rest. I would really like
to find a way of logging the temperatures for a while to see what
happens inside with no heating when it's freezing outside. Leaving the
heating on would scupper that - but if I don't, I risk invalidating the
insurance.

Maybe its time to assess the no insurance option?


Interesting thought! The insurance is not *that* expensive - about £120,
which provides more than enough contents cover (£13k) in case of a
break-in, plus £5M Public Liability cover. It's probably worth it even
if the water leakage cover is restricted.
--
Cheers,
Roger
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On 08/02/2012 09:17, Dave Liquorice wrote:


They seem sensible ball park figures, though I'm sort of surprised
that you need £2.50 of gas/day. At 10p/kWh (and I don't think gas is
that expensive, 5p/kWh more like it?) that is 25 to 50 kWh of energy
which seems a lot for flat.

It's actually 60-odd kWh at about 4p per unit (assuming that I've used
all the dearer units that quarter, 'cos I'm on a 'no standing charge'
tariff). The flat is in a converted (Grade 2 listed) Georgian building
with single-glazed sash windows and not that much insulation - which is
why the heating costs are more than they would be for a better insulated
property of the same size.

With the "waste" heat from the neighbours I don't think you'd need
50p/day (5 to 10 kWh) to keep it above 13C as I don't think it would
get that cool very often. That temperature gradient thing again as
your place cools the greater the temperature gradient and the more
heat flows from your neighbours into your flat. B-)

A temp logger will show the temperature profile but not how much
energy has been used. You need to take readings from the gas meter
for that.

If I log it under the current conditions - with the gas turned off -
there won't be any energy used!


Quite possibly. I don't *think* it's going to freeze if unheated - but
the worrying bit is that I would no longer be insured if it *did*.

And the damage to the flat below could be quite expensive, new
ceilings, replaster walls (or replace plasterboard), carpets,
decoration, perhaps some furnishings...

I reckon that I might still be insured for that under the Public
Liability part of the policy. That's something I need to check!

Interesting - thanks. The only trouble with that one is that the battery
has to be replaced every month,

I did say "Cheap one at random from the first page", unless it's a
really wierd battery I'm sure a larger capacity one could be
attached. Seems a bit odd to have an 83 day logging cycle but only a
30 day battery life. But didn't you say you use the place one week
out of every four so it's only empty for 21 days. B-)


I was thinking more of the cost. The -LITE plus 12 batteries will
probably cost me more than buying the -1, with the added inconvenience
of having to remember to change the batteries, plus the lower
programming flexibility

.... and the software doesn't appear to run on anything later than XP.

The Lascar website says that the software for the -LITE and -1 temp
data loggers runs under "Windows 2000/XP/Vista/7". Both are "suitable
for new designs".


You may be right - it seems to say different things in different places.
In one place it mentioned W98/2000/XP but nothing beyond. Even the -1
blurb mentions Vista but not 7 in one place.
--
Cheers,
Roger
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Jonathan Ward wrote:

Are you suggesting it is cheaper to run your heating all day rather
than just in the mornings and evenings?

Jonathan

It can be.

Especially if your boilers is vastly more efficient just keeping things
warm that heating from icy cold. And your insulation level is high.

NT wrote:
On Feb 7, 12:52 pm, Roger Mills wrote:
I think that most people's response to yesterday's thread about an
external stat to control a pond heater was "I wouldn't start from
here!" - and no-one identified any suitable stats.

I have another application for one - but Google hasn't come up with
anything sensible.

The insurers for my holiday flat are tightening up the cover for
damage due to water escape - and require either that all water is
drained when the flat is unoccupied between November and March, or
that the heating is left on all the time in order to maintain a
temperature of at least 13 degrees. We use the flat for about one
week in four - even in the winter - and it would be totally
impractical to drain the sealed CH system and unvented HW cylinder
after each period of occupancy. The heating is controlled by a
wireless room stat with a frost setting which I *could* set to 13
degrees - but that would cost a fortune in gas. [Our practice so far
has been to turn off the water and gas, and to rely on the fact that
the flats below and above are permanently occupied and heated - thus
reducing the risk of out flat getting cold enough for the pipes to
freeze and burst].

If I go down the road of leaving the heating on, I can't see any
point in running it unless it is freezing outside. It seems to me
that what I need is an external thermostat - switching on at (say) 1
degC - wired in series with the roomstat. It would, of course, need
a by-pass switch for when the flat is occupied - but this could be
separate and not part of the stat itself.

I think that what I actually want is a manual stat with an operating
range of a few degrees either side of zero, and with an external
sensor. [The stat itself doesn't need to be weather-proof as long as
the remote sensor is.]

Any idea where I might find such a beast?

TIA.

If you can count on some heat from at least one of the enighbouring
flats, you can presumably set your trip point to below 0C exterior
temp. The usual temp setting for frost protection is 5C. Another
option is heating tape on all pipework, far cheaper to run, and again
can be on a frost stat.

If you have proper frost protection stat system that prevents freezing, that
is all an insurance company is after, unless they are insuring certain types
of contents they will not insist on a min' of 13C in the flat. Get back to
them.

On Wed, 08 Feb 2012 10:16:44 +0000, Roger Mills wrote:

It's actually 60-odd kWh at about 4p per unit (assuming that I've used
all the dearer units that quarter, 'cos I'm on a 'no standing charge'
tariff). The flat is in a converted (Grade 2 listed) Georgian building
with single-glazed sash windows and not that much insulation

Still strikes me as rather high, maybe you like it what I would call
"stiflingy hot", ie over 20C. B-) I guess with the listing there
isn't a lot you can do to reduce the heat loss. B-(

You may be right - it seems to say different things in different places.

That's why I went to the Lascar site, they make the damn thing they
ought to know what it's rqeuirements are. Places flogging 'em tend to
just copy 'n paste from the makers site when they add the item to
their inventory. If things change like updated software but the
actual product doesn't the chances are the description will remain
unchanged.

--
Cheers
Dave.

On Feb 8, 10:40*am, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:
Jonathan Ward wrote:

Are you suggesting it is cheaper to run your heating all day rather
than just in the mornings and evenings?

Jonathan

It can be.

Especially if your boilers is vastly more efficient just keeping things
warm that heating from icy cold. And your insulation level is high.

We live in a solid brick building (three bricks thick at ground level
and have recently had the roof insulation upgraded to modern
standards. The really cold thing is the mill stream that runs under
the kitchen floor (wish we had had that insulated before it was
tiled). We have a three year old Ferroli condensing boiler - any
thoughts?

Jonathan

In article ,
Roger Mills writes:
On 08/02/2012 00:38, Andrew Gabriel wrote:

Had a similar situation with a relative's empty home.
Insurance required min of 16C or drain down and shut off water.
Otherwise, wouldn't pay for frozen pipe damage/repair.

I decided to go for 10C (IIRC), and shut off water, and remote
monitoring.

How did you implement that?

It was very Heath Robinson.
Used a PC and a modem (long before ADSL existed), and a
serial thermometer. Modem picked up my caller-id on an
incoming call which wasn't answered, waited a bit, and
then connected to Demon. I could then retrieve the
values over the Internet.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

On 08/02/2012 11:17, Jonathan wrote:
On Feb 8, 10:40 am, The Natural
wrote:
Jonathan Ward wrote:

Are you suggesting it is cheaper to run your heating all day rather
than just in the mornings and evenings?

Jonathan

It can be.

Especially if your boilers is vastly more efficient just keeping things
warm that heating from icy cold. And your insulation level is high.

We live in a solid brick building (three bricks thick at ground level
and have recently had the roof insulation upgraded to modern
standards. The really cold thing is the mill stream that runs under
the kitchen floor (wish we had had that insulated before it was
tiled). We have a three year old Ferroli condensing boiler - any
thoughts?

Jonathan

Yes. Can you extract any power from that mill stream?

SteveW

On Feb 7, 8:15*pm, "ARWadsworth"
wrote:

Bloody hell. MM would have a heart attack if he had to heat his house to 13
degrees and he lives in his house:-)

That's alright. If he's there, he'll notice the leak and turn the
water off. (The thing that scares insurers is the water running for
three or four days.)

On Wed, 08 Feb 2012 00:01:21 +0000, Roger Mills wrote:

Thanks - but I can't find him/her! Do you have an item number?

Beg pardon - seller's ebay name was http://myworld.ebay.co.uk/rednal-2007
itemwas "HIGH QUALITY AIR CAPILLARY WEATHERPROOF THERMOSTAT" £38
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/HIGH-QUALI...-WEATHERPROOF-
THERMOSTAT-/160672827568


--
John Stumbles

Sent from my PDP-8 by toggling the switches on the front panel.

On Feb 7, 12:52*pm, Roger Mills wrote:

Any idea where I might find such a beast?

A lot of modern boilers have optional extras, like weather
compensation, which have frost protection programmes, night-setback
etc., built in to the elctronics.
If it's fairly recent and not a cheapo DIY shed job, the
manufacturer's controls may have something with frost protection.

On 11/02/2012 05:14, John Stumbles wrote:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/HIGH-QUALI...-WEATHERPROOF-
THERMOSTAT-/160672827568


Many thanks. How long is the capillary tube - is it long enough to go
through an outside wall, so that it senses outside temperature but with
the the electrics inside?
--
Cheers,
Roger
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