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"dennis@home" wrote in message
eb.com...

it doesn't matter how powerful the engine is as long as its more than the
average for the journey. The power to accelerate doesn't come from the
engine, it comes from the battery.
You can accelerate as fast as the battery and electric motors allow. As
long as you don't do it too often and flatten the battery, then you would
find it hard going.


If the battery is depleted somewhat after acceleration the engine provides
power to the electric drive motors and to top up the batteries very
efficiently as the engine will be running at its most efficient while doing
so, unlike a directly mechanically coupled engine to wheels setup via an
inefficient and power sapping transmission. Constantly varying the speed of
an engine from near zero revs to near maximum is highly inefficient.

A largish car doing 70mph only uses about 20-30% of the power of the engine.
Most of the time a car's engines is way oversized and carrying all that
surplus weight. The surplus power is for acceleration. Electric drive and
kinetic brake recovery using supercapacitors and a decent battery set can
mean engines are much smaller. Having range extenders means the engine can
be built light, small and optimised to run at its sweet revving spot.

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On Jan 29, 6:10*am, "Doctor Drivel"
wrote:
"dennis@home" wrote in message

eb.com...

it doesn't matter how powerful the engine is as long as its more than the
average for the journey. The power to accelerate doesn't come from the
engine, it comes from the battery.
You can accelerate as fast as the battery and electric motors allow. As
long as you don't do it too often and flatten the battery, then you would
find it hard going.


If the battery is depleted somewhat after acceleration the engine provides
power to the electric drive motors and to top up the batteries very
efficiently as the engine will be running at its most efficient while doing
so, unlike a directly mechanically coupled engine to wheels setup via an
inefficient and power sapping transmission. *Constantly varying the speed of
an engine from near zero revs to near maximum is highly inefficient.

A largish car doing 70mph only uses about 20-30% of the power of the engine.
Most of the time a car's engines is way oversized and carrying all that
surplus weight. The surplus power is for acceleration. *Electric drive and
kinetic brake recovery using supercapacitors and a decent battery set can
mean engines are much smaller. *Having range extenders means the engine can
be built light, small and optimised to run at its sweet revving spot.



An engine with given power rating only produces that power at one
engine speed, at other speeds it outputs much less. So a car with a
continuously variable drive ratio drive can get significantly more
acceleration from a given engine power.


NT
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In article ,
Doctor Drivel wrote:

"dennis@home" wrote in message
eb.com...


it doesn't matter how powerful the engine is as long as its more than
the average for the journey. The power to accelerate doesn't come
from the engine, it comes from the battery. You can accelerate as
fast as the battery and electric motors allow. As long as you don't
do it too often and flatten the battery, then you would find it hard
going.


If the battery is depleted somewhat after acceleration the engine
provides power to the electric drive motors and to top up the batteries
very efficiently as the engine will be running at its most efficient
while doing so,


All this from 40 bhp?

unlike a directly mechanically coupled engine to wheels setup via an
inefficient and power sapping transmission. Constantly varying the
speed of an engine from near zero revs to near maximum is highly
inefficient.


Depends on the design of the engine. But 'your' one will be running at
peak revs to develop that 40 bhp. And what it can't do is charge the
battery while producing that 40 bhp to power the car along. Regardless of
what you think. As usual, you're incapable of doing simple arithmetic.

A largish car doing 70mph only uses about 20-30% of the power of the
engine. Most of the time a car's engines is way oversized and carrying
all that surplus weight. The surplus power is for acceleration.
Electric drive and kinetic brake recovery using supercapacitors and a
decent battery set can mean engines are much smaller. Having range
extenders means the engine can be built light, small and optimised to
run at its sweet revving spot.


So this car you're raving about uses super capacitors? Bit of a first for
a low priced vehicle.

BTW, you might ponder on why the Prius has had its engine power output
increased by 50% over the years. And still has poor (for its size and
price) performance on the open road.

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In article
,
NT wrote:
An engine with given power rating only produces that power at one
engine speed, at other speeds it outputs much less. So a car with a
continuously variable drive ratio drive can get significantly more
acceleration from a given engine power.


Power is, of course, a function of torque and engine speed. It's the
torque which is the important one. The idea of running any internal
combustion engine at a steady speed regardless of load is a nonsense.

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On Sat, 28 Jan 2012 22:40:29 -0000, "Doctor Drivel"
wrote:

Thank you knob.


I've no doubt you thank your knob on a daily basis.


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On Sat, 28 Jan 2012 22:41:09 -0000, "Doctor Drivel"
wrote:

snip drivel


If only someone had snipped Drivel Snr.
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"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...


Power is, of course, a function of torque and engine speed. It's the
torque which is the important one. The idea of running any internal
combustion engine at a steady speed regardless of load is a nonsense.


Generators?

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On Jan 29, 10:21*am, "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:
In article
,
* *NT wrote:

An engine with given power rating only produces that power at one
engine speed, at other speeds it outputs much less. So a car with a
continuously variable drive ratio drive can get significantly more
acceleration from a given engine power.


Power is, of course, a function of torque and engine speed. It's the
torque which is the important one.


When it comes to acceleration, power output is, not torque.

The idea of running any internal
combustion engine at a steady speed regardless of load is a nonsense.


Depends how literally you take that. Keeping engine at max power
output and varying gear ratio gets you a lot more acceleration than a
conventional drive system. That's the big advantage of variable
gearing.


NT
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On Sun, 29 Jan 2012 10:17:40 +0000, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
If the battery is depleted somewhat after acceleration the engine
provides power to the electric drive motors and to top up the batteries
very efficiently as the engine will be running at its most efficient
while doing so,


All this from 40 bhp?


The horses in Drivel's head are bigger than everyone else's.
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On 28/01/2012 08:35, Doctor Drivel wrote:
The mpg is 67mpg US, 56 mpg UK, I "think"


You want to try that conversion again?

Andy


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On 29/01/2012 15:20, NT wrote:
On Jan 29, 10:21 am, "Dave Plowman
wrote:
In article
,
wrote:

An engine with given power rating only produces that power at one
engine speed, at other speeds it outputs much less. So a car with a
continuously variable drive ratio drive can get significantly more
acceleration from a given engine power.


Power is, of course, a function of torque and engine speed. It's the
torque which is the important one.


When it comes to acceleration, power output is, not torque.


Not just me scratching my head there then.

The idea of running any internal
combustion engine at a steady speed regardless of load is a nonsense.


Depends how literally you take that. Keeping engine at max power
output and varying gear ratio gets you a lot more acceleration than a
conventional drive system. That's the big advantage of variable
gearing.



Yes but... It's unlikely you need max power all the time. Max power is
what I'll use for climbing Shap Summit, or more likely one of the passes
in the Alps, which has a long climb at high speed - long enough to empty
the batteries.

Most of the time the IC engine will be running at a lower, more
economical setting. Which is probably wide-open throttle, peak torque
until the battery is full - then stopped for a bit. Repeat until
journey's end.

Andy
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On Jan 29, 5:45*pm, Andy Champ wrote:
On 29/01/2012 15:20, NT wrote:

On Jan 29, 10:21 am, "Dave Plowman
wrote:
In article
,
* * *wrote:


An engine with given power rating only produces that power at one
engine speed, at other speeds it outputs much less. So a car with a
continuously variable drive ratio drive can get significantly more
acceleration from a given engine power.


Power is, of course, a function of torque and engine speed. It's the
torque which is the important one.


When it comes to acceleration, power output is, not torque.


Not just me scratching my head there then.



The idea of running any internal
combustion engine at a steady speed regardless of load is a nonsense.


Depends how literally you take that. Keeping engine at max power
output and varying gear ratio gets you a lot more acceleration than a
conventional drive system. That's the big advantage of variable
gearing.


Yes but... It's unlikely you need max power all the time. *Max power is
what I'll use for climbing Shap Summit, or more likely one of the passes
in the Alps, which has a long climb at high speed - long enough to empty
the batteries.

Most of the time the IC engine will be running at a lower, more
economical setting. *Which is probably wide-open throttle, peak torque
until the battery is full - then stopped for a bit. *Repeat until
journey's end.

Andy


Yes, plus with a 40hp engine it'll run flat out more or less whenever
you're accelerating in normal driving.

Also I doubt too many small batteries can take a P_in of 30kW, so the
engine will run at much reduced speed when recharging too.


NT
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In article om,
dennis@home wrote:
Power is, of course, a function of torque and engine speed. It's the
torque which is the important one. The idea of running any internal
combustion engine at a steady speed regardless of load is a nonsense.


Generators?


As I said, horribly inefficient.

--
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In article
,
NT wrote:
Power is, of course, a function of torque and engine speed. It's the
torque which is the important one.


When it comes to acceleration, power output is, not torque.


Eh? It's the exact reverse.

--
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"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article
,
NT wrote:
An engine with given power rating only produces that power at one
engine speed, at other speeds it outputs much less. So a car with a
continuously variable drive ratio drive can get significantly more
acceleration from a given engine power.


Power is, of course, a function of torque and engine speed. It's the
torque which is the important one. The idea of running any internal
combustion engine at a steady speed regardless of load is a nonsense.


You know sweet FA about generators then.



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"Jules Richardson" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 29 Jan 2012 10:17:40 +0000, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
If the battery is depleted somewhat after acceleration the engine
provides power to the electric drive motors and to top up the batteries
very efficiently as the engine will be running at its most efficient
while doing so,


All this from 40 bhp?


The horses in Drivel's head are bigger than everyone else's.


You are a knob!

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On 28/01/2012 19:18, dennis@home wrote:


"Nightjar" wrote in message
...

The laws of physics don't and the fact remains that anything with that
little power is going to be horrendously slow when you really don't
want it to be - like turning out of a side road onto a fast main road.


I know its hard to believe but drivel actually has a bit of this
correct.. it doesn't matter how powerful the engine is as long as its
more than the average for the journey.The power to accelerate doesn't
come from the engine, it comes from the battery.
You can accelerate as fast as the battery and electric motors allow. As
long as you don't do it too often and flatten the battery, then you
would find it hard going.


OK, if you prefer, unless the manufacturers have fitted a battery and
motor that are disproportionately large for the engine, a vehicle with
that little power is going to be horrendously slow.

Actually, I have found a set of specifications for the car, where it is
suggested that the engine will be 60bhp, rather than 40bhp. Even that
will only get it a 0-62mph of a rather leisurely 12 seconds.

Colin Bignell
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On 28/01/2012 21:36, Doctor Drivel wrote:
....
You must read what I wrote. It is easier that way.


I always do. It is usually good for a laugh.

Colin Bignell
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On 29/01/2012 17:45, Andy Champ wrote:
....
Most of the time the IC engine will be running at a lower, more
economical setting. Which is probably wide-open throttle, peak torque
until the battery is full - then stopped for a bit. Repeat until
journey's end.


The most economic setting for any IC engine is usually in the range
65%-75% of maximum power.

Colin Bignell
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Nightjar wrote:
On 29/01/2012 17:45, Andy Champ wrote:
...
Most of the time the IC engine will be running at a lower, more
economical setting. Which is probably wide-open throttle, peak torque
until the battery is full - then stopped for a bit. Repeat until
journey's end.


The most economic setting for any IC engine is usually in the range
65%-75% of maximum power.


far from true.
diesels best at very low power levels 10-20% - unless they are designed
not to be of course....

in fact you can design the engine to be best at almost any level, and
people do...

because 'full power' is a moveable feast

Colin Bignell



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Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article
,
NT wrote:
Power is, of course, a function of torque and engine speed. It's the
torque which is the important one.


When it comes to acceleration, power output is, not torque.


Eh? It's the exact reverse.

well its actually both since torque times revs IS power..
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On Jan 29, 6:42*pm, "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:
In article
,
* *NT wrote:

Power is, of course, a function of torque and engine speed. It's the
torque which is the important one.

When it comes to acceleration, power output is, not torque.


Eh? It's the exact reverse.



Lets see with a simple example, of a car doing M mph.
Compare Engine at speed S with torque T, so P_out TxS
with same engine at speed 2S and torque 0.8T, P_out is now 1.6TxS.
In the 2nd scenario, the gear ratio from engine to wheels is a factor
of 2 different, so engine torque is only 80% as much, but torque at
the wheels is 1.6x as much.


NT
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On 30/01/2012 00:18, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Nightjar wrote:
On 29/01/2012 17:45, Andy Champ wrote:
...
Most of the time the IC engine will be running at a lower, more
economical setting. Which is probably wide-open throttle, peak torque
until the battery is full - then stopped for a bit. Repeat until
journey's end.


The most economic setting for any IC engine is usually in the range
65%-75% of maximum power.


far from true.
diesels best at very low power levels 10-20% - unless they are designed
not to be of course....

in fact you can design the engine to be best at almost any level, and
people do...

because 'full power' is a moveable feast


So is the term diesel engine, but in the context of this thread,
references ought be to the sort that is likely to be fitted into a motor
vehicle, not that there has been any suggestion that the Yo-Mobile is
going to have a diesel engine. In any case, running at full throttle is
not the answer for best economy, so the useful engine output will still
be less than the maximum engine power, if they are going for best economy.

Colin Bignell

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On 28/01/2012 12:24, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In ,
Doctor wrote:
Knob, again..."The Yo-Mobile is driven 100% by electric motors. The
speed of the engine doesn't have to fully correlate with the driving
wheels."

So that 40 bhp is somehow increased?


Knob, again..."The Yo-Mobile is driven 100% by electric motors. The
speed of the engine doesn't have to fully correlate with the driving
wheels."


So just the same as many automatic gearboxes? Like a CVT?


Oh go on, get him prattling about the Prius' CVT and how it hasn't got
one even though the gearing between engine and wheel speed is not fixed
and continuously variable ;-)

Still waiting for you to explain how this puny power output is magically
changed into something adequate for UK roads.




--
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John.

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On 28/01/2012 22:42, Doctor Drivel wrote:
dennis@home wrote:
"Doctor Drivel" wrote in message
...

"dennis@home" wrote in message
eb.com...


"Doctor Drivel" wrote in message
...


Again....."No. And they pollute like hell in cities, whereas the
Prius does not."

Eagerly awaited, Dennis joins in.......

How far can a prius go without running the petrol engine?

4 miles.


So you can commute for a whole two miles


Dennis, it says four above. But the Volt can do 60 miles.


Yes, sorry dribble, he forgot your mathematical problem. Most folks who
commute need to come home again at the end of the day - else it would
not be commuting - more like going and staying.

So if you can go a total of 4 miles you need to divide that by two to
work out the maximum commute. If you will pardon some tricky sums: 4 / 2
= 2 (don't worry if you don't understand the math - just take it from
us, we won't be asking questions later)


--
Cheers,

John.

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On 28/01/2012 19:18, dennis@home wrote:


"Nightjar" wrote in message
...

The laws of physics don't and the fact remains that anything with that
little power is going to be horrendously slow when you really don't
want it to be - like turning out of a side road onto a fast main road.


I know its hard to believe but drivel actually has a bit of this
correct.. it doesn't matter how powerful the engine is as long as its
more than the average for the journey. The power to accelerate doesn't
come from the engine, it comes from the battery.
You can accelerate as fast as the battery and electric motors allow. As
long as you don't do it too often and flatten the battery, then you
would find it hard going.


Probably best to avoid hills... or passengers... or putting stuff in the
boot... or towing anything... as well


--
Cheers,

John.

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"John Rumm" wrote in message
o.uk...
On 28/01/2012 12:24, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In ,
Doctor wrote:
Knob, again..."The Yo-Mobile is driven 100% by electric motors. The
speed of the engine doesn't have to fully correlate with the driving
wheels."

So that 40 bhp is somehow increased?


Knob, again..."The Yo-Mobile is driven 100% by electric motors. The
speed of the engine doesn't have to fully correlate with the driving
wheels."


So just the same as many automatic gearboxes? Like a CVT?


Oh go on, get him prattling about the Prius' CVT and how it hasn't got one
even though the gearing between engine and wheel speed is not fixed and
continuously variable ;-)


The Prius has no "in-line" CVT. IT is parallel between electric motor and
the engine. If you can't figure this out then just accept it - it is easier
that way fro for.

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"Nightjar" wrote in message
...
On 29/01/2012 17:45, Andy Champ wrote:
...
Most of the time the IC engine will be running at a lower, more
economical setting. Which is probably wide-open throttle, peak torque
until the battery is full - then stopped for a bit. Repeat until
journey's end.


The most economic setting for any IC engine is usually in the range
65%-75% of maximum power.


This Yo-Mobile engine not like any other engine you have known, it is a
"rotary vane engine". It is also tuned to turn a genny.

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"Nightjar" wrote in message
...
On 28/01/2012 21:36, Doctor Drivel wrote:
...
You must read what I wrote. It is easier that way.


I always do. It is usually good for a laugh.


That is good. You do need to have fun.

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On 30/01/2012 04:10, Doctor Drivel wrote:

"Nightjar" wrote in message
...
On 29/01/2012 17:45, Andy Champ wrote:
...
Most of the time the IC engine will be running at a lower, more
economical setting. Which is probably wide-open throttle, peak torque
until the battery is full - then stopped for a bit. Repeat until
journey's end.


The most economic setting for any IC engine is usually in the range
65%-75% of maximum power.


This Yo-Mobile engine not like any other engine you have known, it is a
"rotary vane engine". It is also tuned to turn a genny.


Despite the claims, it is not a new concept, merely a new version of an
old idea. A major problem in the past has always been vibration, due to
the variable rotational speed of the vanes.

Colin Bignell


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Nightjar wrote:
On 30/01/2012 04:10, Doctor Drivel wrote:

"Nightjar" wrote in message
...
On 29/01/2012 17:45, Andy Champ wrote:
...
Most of the time the IC engine will be running at a lower, more
economical setting. Which is probably wide-open throttle, peak
torque until the battery is full - then stopped for a bit. Repeat
until journey's end.

The most economic setting for any IC engine is usually in the range
65%-75% of maximum power.


This Yo-Mobile engine not like any other engine you have known, it
is a "rotary vane engine". It is also tuned to turn a genny.


Despite the claims, it is not a new concept,


The point is that it is very different to current engines, yet you are
prattling about current tripe.

merely a new version of
an old idea. A major problem in the past has always been vibration,
due to the variable rotational speed of the vanes.


It appears the Ruskies have got around that - clever people.

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In article ,
Doctor Drivel wrote:
Power is, of course, a function of torque and engine speed. It's the
torque which is the important one. The idea of running any internal
combustion engine at a steady speed regardless of load is a nonsense.


You know sweet FA about generators then.


Au contraire, pet. An internal combustion engine driving a generator at
low load is desperately inefficient. If you'd half a brain cell you'd know
why.

--
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In article ,
Nightjar wrote:
On 29/01/2012 17:45, Andy Champ wrote:
...
Most of the time the IC engine will be running at a lower, more
economical setting. Which is probably wide-open throttle, peak torque
until the battery is full - then stopped for a bit. Repeat until
journey's end.


The most economic setting for any IC engine is usually in the range
65%-75% of maximum power.


Maximum BMEP, which is usually close to peak torque.

--
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In article ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article
,
NT wrote:
Power is, of course, a function of torque and engine speed. It's the
torque which is the important one.


When it comes to acceleration, power output is, not torque.


Eh? It's the exact reverse.

well its actually both since torque times revs IS power..


BHP, you mean.

And peak BHP hardly ever coincides with peak torque. And it's at peak
torque that you get the best acceleration.

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In article
,
NT wrote:
Eh? It's the exact reverse.



Lets see with a simple example, of a car doing M mph.
Compare Engine at speed S with torque T, so P_out TxS
with same engine at speed 2S and torque 0.8T, P_out is now 1.6TxS.
In the 2nd scenario, the gear ratio from engine to wheels is a factor
of 2 different, so engine torque is only 80% as much, but torque at
the wheels is 1.6x as much.


I'm not going to even try and follow that - just be assured that maximum
acceleration in any gear occurs at peak torque, which is not commonly at
peak BHP in a road engine.

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In article ,
Doctor Drivel wrote:
The Prius has no "in-line" CVT. IT is parallel between electric motor
and the engine. If you can't figure this out then just accept it - it
is easier that way fro for.


The gearing between the electric motor and petrol one is not fixed
relative to the rear wheels. So it has a form of continuously variable
gearbox to drive them. That it is basically just a differential drive
makes no difference to this fact.
But of course you are so steeped in reading adverts, you'd not know this.

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In article ,
Doctor Drivel wrote:
This Yo-Mobile engine not like any other engine you have known, it is a
"rotary vane engine". It is also tuned to turn a genny.


Ye canna change the laws of physics, capt'n.

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In article ,
Doctor Drivel wrote:
Despite the claims, it is not a new concept,


The point is that it is very different to current engines, yet you are
prattling about current tripe.


merely a new version of
an old idea. A major problem in the past has always been vibration,
due to the variable rotational speed of the vanes.


It appears the Ruskies have got around that - clever people.


NSU thought they had got round the problem of rotor seals wearing out on
their rotary engine too. The fundamental problem with that type of engine.
So they went into production and warranty claims bankrupted them.

The same will happen here - if they ever go into production, which they
haven't yet.

You really are the most gullible of fools.

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On 30/01/2012 03:38, Doctor Drivel wrote:

"John Rumm" wrote in message
o.uk...
On 28/01/2012 12:24, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In ,
Doctor wrote:
Knob, again..."The Yo-Mobile is driven 100% by electric motors. The
speed of the engine doesn't have to fully correlate with the driving
wheels."

So that 40 bhp is somehow increased?

Knob, again..."The Yo-Mobile is driven 100% by electric motors. The
speed of the engine doesn't have to fully correlate with the driving
wheels."

So just the same as many automatic gearboxes? Like a CVT?


Oh go on, get him prattling about the Prius' CVT and how it hasn't got
one even though the gearing between engine and wheel speed is not
fixed and continuously variable ;-)


The Prius has no "in-line" CVT. IT is parallel between electric motor
and the engine. If you can't figure this out then just accept it - it is
easier that way fro for.


Ah bless, you hardly even need bait.


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John.

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On 30/01/2012 10:52, Doctor Drivel wrote:
Nightjar wrote:
On 30/01/2012 04:10, Doctor Drivel wrote:

"Nightjar" wrote in message
...
On 29/01/2012 17:45, Andy Champ wrote:
...
Most of the time the IC engine will be running at a lower, more
economical setting. Which is probably wide-open throttle, peak
torque until the battery is full - then stopped for a bit. Repeat
until journey's end.

The most economic setting for any IC engine is usually in the range
65%-75% of maximum power.

This Yo-Mobile engine not like any other engine you have known, it
is a "rotary vane engine". It is also tuned to turn a genny.


Despite the claims, it is not a new concept,


The point is that it is very different to current engines, yet you are
prattling about current tripe.


They all use the same laws of thermodynamics.

merely a new version of
an old idea. A major problem in the past has always been vibration,
due to the variable rotational speed of the vanes.


It appears the Ruskies have got around that - clever people.


We won't know whether they have solved the problem until the cars start
appearing on the market. The simplest answer is a multi stage engine,
where the vibrations from one set of vanes cancel out the vibrations of
another. However, that can still lead to excessive component wear.

Colin Bignell

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