Hi All
As per subject really. Is this at all possible/recommended?
According to the 12S pinout, pins 4 and 3 are constant power and ground.
Difficult to imagine as I would think that the local chavs would've put a
paper clip in there by now.

On Jan 16, 10:34 am, "Grumps" wrote:
Hi All
As per subject really. Is this at all possible/recommended?
According to the 12S pinout, pins 4 and 3 are constant power and ground.

Difficult to imagine as I would think that the local chavs would've put a
paper clip in there by now.

wouldn't that just blow the fuse?

Jim K

In article ,
Grumps wrote:
Hi All As per subject really. Is this at all possible/recommended?
According to the 12S pinout, pins 4 and 3 are constant power and ground.
Difficult to imagine as I would think that the local chavs would've put
a paper clip in there by now.

A better way is to fit one of the Lidl etc chargers in the car and provide
a mains input. I've got that on the old Rover.

--
*On the other hand, you have different fingers*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Grumps wrote:

As per subject really. Is this at all possible/recommended?
According to the 12S pinout, pins 4 and 3 are constant power and ground.
Difficult to imagine as I would think that the local chavs would've put a
paper clip in there by now.

The permanent feed should be fused. I'm not sure that miscreants
have any great knowledge of, or interest in, such matters. The
results of their attempt would not be particularly spectacular,
indeed they probably couldn't tell if it had worked.

Is your question, "Is it possible to charge a car battery via the
12S connector, instead of directly connecting to the battery
terminals?"

Personally, on the odd occasion it has been necessary, running a
mains extension to the car, and putting the charger under the
bonnet has worked fine.

Your proposal would increase the length of DC cable, both
internal to the car, and possibly also externally, which is less
than ideal, though not a job-stopper.

Why does the idea appeal to you?

Chris
--
Chris J Dixon Nottingham UK


Have dancing shoes, will ceilidh.

"Chris J Dixon" wrote in message
...

Grumps wrote:

As per subject really. Is this at all possible/recommended?
According to the 12S pinout, pins 4 and 3 are constant power and ground.
Difficult to imagine as I would think that the local chavs would've put a
paper clip in there by now.

The permanent feed should be fused. I'm not sure that miscreants
have any great knowledge of, or interest in, such matters. The
results of their attempt would not be particularly spectacular,
indeed they probably couldn't tell if it had worked.

I'm not sure what the fuse rating is. Say it's 10A (maybe 16A) and the
charger can only do 6A. Then the fuse can't blow can it?

Is your question, "Is it possible to charge a car battery via the
12S connector, instead of directly connecting to the battery
terminals?"

Yes.

Personally, on the odd occasion it has been necessary, running a
mains extension to the car, and putting the charger under the
bonnet has worked fine.

That's what I'm doing now.

Your proposal would increase the length of DC cable, both
internal to the car, and possibly also externally, which is less
than ideal, though not a job-stopper.

Why does the idea appeal to you?

It appeals as it is easier to plug something into an exposed socket than to
keep lifting the bonnet.
It's the cold mornings that cause the starting troubles. Both battery and
charging have been tested and are ok. There may of course be a permanent
drain elsewhere.

In article ,
Grumps wrote:

[Snip]

It appeals as it is easier to plug something into an exposed socket than
to keep lifting the bonnet.

This is certainly something that was fitted to my father's car in the
1950s. It made it easy to plug in the charger overnight. no gloves
needed, since no grease


It's the cold mornings that cause the
starting troubles. Both battery and charging have been tested and are
ok. There may of course be a permanent drain elsewhere.

--
From KT24

Using a RISC OS computer running v5.16

Grumps wrote:

I'm not sure what the fuse rating is. Say it's 10A (maybe 16A) and the
charger can only do 6A. Then the fuse can't blow can it?

It would be most unlikely.

Chris
--
Chris J Dixon Nottingham UK


Have dancing shoes, will ceilidh.

Grumps explained :
Hi All
As per subject really. Is this at all possible/recommended?
According to the 12S pinout, pins 4 and 3 are constant power and ground.
Difficult to imagine as I would think that the local chavs would've put a
paper clip in there by now.

If it is wired to modern standards, then pin 4 should be fed via a
relay that only energises when the engine is running/ the main battery
is receiving a charge. Like wise pin 6 fridge supply, which is only
live under the same circumstances.

Pin 4 is intended to charge the battery in the trailer.

My ciggy lighter socket is live all the time and I use a small
maintenance charger which plugs in there. I have the charger mounted on
the garage roof beam, with its 12v plug hanging ready to plug straight
in as I stop.

--
Regards,
Harry (M1BYT) (L)
http://www.ukradioamateur.co.uk

In article ,
"Grumps" writes:

Why does the idea appeal to you?

It appeals as it is easier to plug something into an exposed socket than to
keep lifting the bonnet.
It's the cold mornings that cause the starting troubles. Both battery and
charging have been tested and are ok. There may of course be a permanent
drain elsewhere.

Many years ago, I put a cigarette lighter plug on my battery charger
so I could just plug it into the cigarette lighter socket, and leave
it sitting in the dry car (in the footwell) whilst it was charging.
That charger was only 4A max.

However, I don't recall ever needing to charge my own car batteries - it
was always someone else's.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

on 16/01/2012, Grumps supposed :
I'm not sure what the fuse rating is. Say it's 10A (maybe 16A) and the
charger can only do 6A. Then the fuse can't blow can it?

It should be a direct fused supply from the main battery. What I do is
fuse one large cable at 30amps at the source, run that to a charge
relay in the boot, then split it down to two supplies again fused, but
at 15 or 20amp each for fridge and trailer battery charging. Large
cable to avoid volts drop rather than rated for amps.

--
Regards,
Harry (M1BYT) (L)
http://www.ukradioamateur.co.uk

On Mon, 16 Jan 2012 11:02:18 -0000, Grumps wrote:

It's the cold mornings that cause the starting troubles. Both battery
and charging have been tested and are ok.

What temperature was the battery when it was tested? Really cold like
it would be after standing overnight or just a few degrees warmer
after starting and run to the garage to be tested?

When the battery was going in my car I knew it might be interesting
starting if it was cold but just a few degrees warmer there wasn't a
problem. Could almost use the ease, or not, of starting as a
thermometer. B-)

--
Cheers
Dave.

Harry Bloomfield wrote:

Grumps explained :
Hi All
As per subject really. Is this at all possible/recommended?
According to the 12S pinout, pins 4 and 3 are constant power and ground.
Difficult to imagine as I would think that the local chavs would've put a
paper clip in there by now.

If it is wired to modern standards, then pin 4 should be fed via a
relay that only energises when the engine is running/ the main battery
is receiving a charge. Like wise pin 6 fridge supply, which is only
live under the same circumstances.

Pin 4 is intended to charge the battery in the trailer.

Pin 4 is permanently live. However, and not relevant to the
original question, latest caravan standards implement switching
of this feed within the caravan in response to pin 6.

If pin 6 is energised, besides feeding the fridge itself, it
initiates switching of the battery, isolating it from the load
and connecting it to pin 4.

Chris
--
Chris J Dixon Nottingham UK


Have dancing shoes, will ceilidh.

On 16/01/2012 13:19, Dave Liquorice wrote:
What temperature was the battery when it was tested? Really cold like
it would be after standing overnight or just a few degrees warmer
after starting and run to the garage to be tested?

When the battery was going in my car I knew it might be interesting
starting if it was cold but just a few degrees warmer there wasn't a
problem. Could almost use the ease, or not, of starting as a
thermometer. B-)

Rings a bell. I recall when I was young and penniless bump starting my
Mini every morning there was a frost. I was hoping it would last until
spring, and then I'd be all right all summer.

Then we had some snow. You can't bump start on snow

Andy

In article ,
Andy Champ wrote:
Rings a bell. I recall when I was young and penniless bump starting my
Mini every morning there was a frost. I was hoping it would last until
spring, and then I'd be all right all summer.

Then we had some snow. You can't bump start on snow

You can start the original 850 Mini by jacking up one front wheel,
plonking it in top gear and 'spinning' the wheel by hand.

--
*You are validating my inherent mistrust of strangers

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Mon, 16 Jan 2012 23:45:11 +0000 (GMT), Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

I recall when I was young and penniless bump starting my Mini
every
morning there was a frost. I was hoping it would last until
spring,
and then I'd be all right all summer.

Then we had some snow. You can't bump start on snow

Makes it harder, but not impossible I would have through higher gear
and don't drop the clutch?

You can start the original 850 Mini by jacking up one front wheel,
plonking it in top gear and 'spinning' the wheel by hand.

Neat trick. Was going to say what wrong with the starting handle but
then remembered the transverse engine. B-)

I guess that would still work for petrol engines today but possibly
not on a diesel.

--
Cheers
Dave.

In article o.uk,
"Dave Liquorice" writes:

Neat trick. Was going to say what wrong with the starting handle but
then remembered the transverse engine. B-)

My dad had a Citroen GS and then a later model which I forget.
You could use the wheel change spanner as a starting handle in
both of these, and we did occasionally (damn hard work through).

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

In article o.uk,
Dave Liquorice wrote:
You can start the original 850 Mini by jacking up one front wheel,
plonking it in top gear and 'spinning' the wheel by hand.

Neat trick. Was going to say what wrong with the starting handle but
then remembered the transverse engine. B-)

Strangely, there was a starting handle conversion kit made. But you had to
remove a wheel to use it, IIRC.

I guess that would still work for petrol engines today but possibly
not on a diesel.

It would need to be a small engine.

--
*Corduroy pillows are making headlines.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Andrew Gabriel wrote:
In article o.uk,
"Dave Liquorice" writes:

Neat trick. Was going to say what wrong with the starting handle but
then remembered the transverse engine. B-)

My dad had a Citroen GS and then a later model which I forget.
You could use the wheel change spanner as a starting handle in
both of these, and we did occasionally (damn hard work through).

Would that give any more leverage than simply using the tyre? And less
chance of that assaulting you. ;-)

--
*If you remember the '60s, you weren't really there

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Tue, 17 Jan 2012 10:29:01 +0000 (GMT), Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

I guess that would still work for petrol engines today but
possibly
not on a diesel.

It would need to be a small engine.

Not sure the size, as in cc, makes that much difference it's the
compression ratio. 9:1 (ish) for a petrol, 20:1 (ish) for a diesel.

If I forget to operate the decompression lever on my single cylinder
diesel genset and try to pull start it it's like yanking a rope
attached to a boulder, it doesn't move once the slack has been taken
up. The single cylinder 4 stroke petrol mower is a doodle.

--
Cheers
Dave.

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Andrew Gabriel wrote:
In article o.uk,
"Dave Liquorice" writes:
Neat trick. Was going to say what wrong with the starting handle but
then remembered the transverse engine. B-)

My dad had a Citroen GS and then a later model which I forget.
You could use the wheel change spanner as a starting handle in
both of these, and we did occasionally (damn hard work through).

Would that give any more leverage than simply using the tyre? And less
chance of that assaulting you. ;-)

It engaged with a dog on the crankshaft. Properly thought out, it was.
And if it was hard work to start the engine by hand, IME, it needed a
service.

--
Tciao for Now!

John.

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article o.uk,
Dave Liquorice wrote:
You can start the original 850 Mini by jacking up one front wheel,
plonking it in top gear and 'spinning' the wheel by hand.

Neat trick. Was going to say what wrong with the starting handle but
then remembered the transverse engine. B-)

Strangely, there was a starting handle conversion kit made. But you had to
remove a wheel to use it, IIRC.

I guess that would still work for petrol engines today but possibly
not on a diesel.

It would need to be a small engine.

I've hand started a 4 litre petrol engine in a Leylend FG550 truck. It
was a low compression version of the Austin Princess engine, with a
massive 6:1 compression ratio.

I've often hand started my Land Rover 2286cc petrol engine, too.

--
Tciao for Now!

John.

On Tue, 17 Jan 2012 10:30:47 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

In article ,
Andrew Gabriel wrote:
In article o.uk,
"Dave Liquorice" writes:

Neat trick. Was going to say what wrong with the starting handle but
then remembered the transverse engine. B-)

My dad had a Citroen GS and then a later model which I forget.
You could use the wheel change spanner as a starting handle in
both of these, and we did occasionally (damn hard work through).

Would that give any more leverage than simply using the tyre? And less
chance of that assaulting you. ;-)

Jacking up a hydro-pneumatically suspended Citroen wasn't that easy if
the floorpan was only just clearing the ground.

Of course you could start the engine, lift the suspension to its
highest setting, stick a block of wood or a prop underneath, move the
suspension to its lowest setting and the wheel(s) would lift off the
ground, but by then you wouldn't need to spin the wheel to start the
engine.


--

In article ,
"Dave Plowman (News)" writes:
In article ,
Andrew Gabriel wrote:
In article o.uk,
"Dave Liquorice" writes:

Neat trick. Was going to say what wrong with the starting handle but
then remembered the transverse engine. B-)

My dad had a Citroen GS and then a later model which I forget.
You could use the wheel change spanner as a starting handle in
both of these, and we did occasionally (damn hard work through).

Would that give any more leverage than simply using the tyre? And less
chance of that assaulting you. ;-)

Given the effort required, I don't think you'd stand a chance by
trying to use a tyre (ignoring the fact you couldn't bumpstart
these cars anyway as they were semi-automatic with torque converters).

The starter handle had a jump-out cluch fitting so it didn't
spin round when the engine started. It could click back if you
didn't use enough force to get a piston over TDC on compression.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

In article ,
The Other Mike writes:

Jacking up a hydro-pneumatically suspended Citroen wasn't that easy if
the floorpan was only just clearing the ground.

Of course you could start the engine, lift the suspension to its
highest setting, stick a block of wood or a prop underneath, move the
suspension to its lowest setting and the wheel(s) would lift off the
ground, but by then you wouldn't need to spin the wheel to start the
engine.

Part of the problem starting that car was that the starter was also
driving the hydro-pneumatic pump. There was many a day when the whole
family lept into the car as we set off to go somewhere, and it wouldn't
then start. This was met with the cry "everyone out", at which point
we all got out except dad, and then it started OK (and pumped up the
suspension), and we got back in again.

Back on to batteries, the car wasn't that good with them either.
Although alternators were standard on most cars by then, the Citroen
had a much more crude hybrid, which used an alternator to generate
the electricity, but the regulation and charging was done with
dynamo-style circuit using switching relays, and unlike a real
alternator, it couldn't charge the battery at tickover speed.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

On 16/01/2012 13:19, Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Mon, 16 Jan 2012 11:02:18 -0000, Grumps wrote:

It's the cold mornings that cause the starting troubles. Both battery
and charging have been tested and are ok.

What temperature was the battery when it was tested? Really cold like
it would be after standing overnight or just a few degrees warmer
after starting and run to the garage to be tested?

When the battery was going in my car I knew it might be interesting
starting if it was cold but just a few degrees warmer there wasn't a
problem. Could almost use the ease, or not, of starting as a
thermometer. B-)

My friend's Lada manual had a bit saying if it was really cold, turn the
headlamps on to warm the battery up before trying to start :-)

In article ,
John Williamson wrote:
My dad had a Citroen GS and then a later model which I forget.
You could use the wheel change spanner as a starting handle in
both of these, and we did occasionally (damn hard work through).

Would that give any more leverage than simply using the tyre? And less
chance of that assaulting you. ;-)

It engaged with a dog on the crankshaft. Properly thought out, it was.
And if it was hard work to start the engine by hand, IME, it needed a
service.

Ah - totally misunderstood you. I thought you were using the wheel brace
on a wheel nut to start the engine.

Starting handles were part of near every car's toolkit at one time. Up
until the '60s?

--
*Out of my mind. Back in five minutes.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Tue, 17 Jan 2012 12:25:48 +0000 (UTC),
(Andrew Gabriel) wrote:

Given the effort required, I don't think you'd stand a chance by
trying to use a tyre (ignoring the fact you couldn't bumpstart
these cars anyway as they were semi-automatic with torque converters).

I had a manual one - cracking car, it was.

In article ,
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
John Williamson wrote:
My dad had a Citroen GS and then a later model which I forget.
You could use the wheel change spanner as a starting handle in
both of these, and we did occasionally (damn hard work through).

Would that give any more leverage than simply using the tyre? And less
chance of that assaulting you. ;-)

It engaged with a dog on the crankshaft. Properly thought out, it was.
And if it was hard work to start the engine by hand, IME, it needed a
service.

Ah - totally misunderstood you. I thought you were using the wheel brace
on a wheel nut to start the engine.

Starting handles were part of near every car's toolkit at one time. Up
until the '60s?

A friend had a copy of the Ford "New" Anglia parts list. The starting
handle was part of the GPO spec!

--
From KT24

Using a RISC OS computer running v5.16

On Tue, 17 Jan 2012 13:05:26 +0000, Clive George
wrote:

My friend's Lada manual had a bit saying if it was really cold, turn the
headlamps on to warm the battery up before trying to start :-)

Nothing wrong with doing that. Standard practice in cold countries.
A slightly less than frozen, partly discharged battery turns over an
engine better than a fully charged near frozen battery.

Mains fed battery heaters are another option.

Even better is a heated garage at both ends of your journey

--

The Other Mike wrote:
On Tue, 17 Jan 2012 13:05:26 +0000, Clive George
wrote:

My friend's Lada manual had a bit saying if it was really cold, turn the
headlamps on to warm the battery up before trying to start :-)

Nothing wrong with doing that. Standard practice in cold countries.
A slightly less than frozen, partly discharged battery turns over an
engine better than a fully charged near frozen battery.

Most battery powered tools need to be used for a while in cold weather
before the have full power.

Bill

On 17/01/2012 09:15, Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Mon, 16 Jan 2012 23:45:11 +0000 (GMT), Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

I recall when I was young and penniless bump starting my Mini
every
morning there was a frost. I was hoping it would last until
spring,
and then I'd be all right all summer.

Then we had some snow. You can't bump start on snow

Makes it harder, but not impossible I would have through higher gear
and don't drop the clutch?

You can start the original 850 Mini by jacking up one front wheel,
plonking it in top gear and 'spinning' the wheel by hand.

Neat trick. Was going to say what wrong with the starting handle but
then remembered the transverse engine. B-)

I guess that would still work for petrol engines today but possibly
not on a diesel.

Modern diesels probably won't have a chance of starting 'cos they need
power for the electronics, never mind the compression you'd be fighting
- I know that when the Primera 2.2 TD that I had developed a fault and a
tendency to stall, it'd nearly throw you through the windscreen as the
compression fought the inertia.

There again 20 years ago I flattened the battery on a 1.6 diesel Fiesta
and with no power from the battery, a valve wouldn't open (at least
that's what I assumed at the time) and the damned thing couldn't even be
tow started.

I borrowed a set of jump leads, which began to melt.

I borrowed a better set of jump leads and got it started - in the
process destroying the other guys factory-fit alarm! It didn't matter
though, he wasn't much liked

SteveW