I know modern battery technology is supposedly different to what it
was 30 years ago but does anyone know if it is still okay to store a
dry charged car battery? I have a spare and want to charge it, drain
the electrolyte and seal it. I remember getting single glass cells in
like that for a telephone exchange years ago.

On 16 Feb, 17:05, Alang wrote:
I know modern battery technology is supposedly different to what it
was 30 years ago but does anyone know if it is still okay to store a
dry charged car battery?

Yes, but don't put the contents back into the cells (or mix between
cells, but that's old advice anyway).

About 15 years ago, cell lifetimes improved massively when they
started to use permeable cell separator bags - a porous membrane which
avoided many of the failure modes based around a build-up of
conductive sludge around the bottom of the plates. If you mix crud
from both inside and outside the bag (still from within the same
cell), then you're losing most of the benefit.

On Mon, 16 Feb 2009 10:07:24 -0800 (PST), Andy Dingley
wrote:

On 16 Feb, 17:05, Alang wrote:
I know modern battery technology is supposedly different to what it
was 30 years ago but does anyone know if it is still okay to store a
dry charged car battery?

Yes, but don't put the contents back into the cells (or mix between
cells, but that's old advice anyway).

The electrolyte? As long as it's all the same SG it should be ok I
would have thought.
I was just going to bottle it, flush the cells and seal the battery
with tape to keep the air out.


About 15 years ago, cell lifetimes improved massively when they
started to use permeable cell separator bags - a porous membrane which
avoided many of the failure modes based around a build-up of
conductive sludge around the bottom of the plates. If you mix crud
from both inside and outside the bag (still from within the same
cell), then you're losing most of the benefit.

I used to wash the crud out of cells as part of routine maintainance.
Extended the life significantly.

I have two car batteries. One is completely sealed from external
probing. At least I can't se a way of getting into it. The other is
one that still has fillers where you can get a hydrometer in. That's
the one I want to try and store.

The alternative is putting it on trickle charge and hoping it doesn't
die before I want to use it

Alang wrote:
[...]
I have two car batteries. One is completely sealed from external
probing. At least I can't se a way of getting into it. The other is
one that still has fillers where you can get a hydrometer in. That's
the one I want to try and store.

The alternative is putting it on trickle charge and hoping it doesn't
die before I want to use it

Myself, given a choice, it's the modern 'maintenance free' one I'd be
keen to store. Charge it, store and forget. Typical English climate
and it'll sit there for a year and retain maybe 90% charge.
In stark contrast to those hi-falluting, hi-tek, hi-price Ni/Li types
which lose about 5% a day.
Gimme a drill fitted with an SLA any day

On 16 Feb, 18:17, Alang wrote:
On Mon, 16 Feb 2009 10:07:24 -0800 (PST), Andy Dingley

Yes, but don't put the contents back into the cells (or mix between
cells, but that's old advice anyway).

The electrolyte? As long as it's all the same SG it should be ok I
would have thought. *

Only if it's pure, clean acid. If it's the usual collection of
dissolved crud, then it's not a good idea.


I was just going to bottle it, flush the cells and seal the battery
with tape to keep the air out.

I have a pair of 6V batteries for a '30s MG, although I think they're
'50s vintage. Three glass cells in a wooden crate. They were drained
and stored in the '50s, then when refilled 40 years on they worked
fine. I plan to use them again, when I get round to it.

The alternative is putting it on trickle charge and hoping it doesn't
die before I want to use it

Trickle will kill them too - you want float, and ideally temperature
compensated. Or else charge intermittently, but regularly.

You can buy a float charger from Optimate, although everyone I've
heard from who has one has also had it kill batteries in a pretty
short time.

Alang wrote:
On Mon, 16 Feb 2009 10:07:24 -0800 (PST), Andy Dingley
wrote:
On 16 Feb, 17:05, Alang wrote:

I know modern battery technology is supposedly different to what it
was 30 years ago but does anyone know if it is still okay to store a
dry charged car battery?

Yes, but don't put the contents back into the cells (or mix between
cells, but that's old advice anyway).

The electrolyte? As long as it's all the same SG it should be ok I
would have thought.
I was just going to bottle it, flush the cells and seal the battery
with tape to keep the air out.

Surely that would store it wet. You need to let it dry out. Since
sulphuric is hygroscopic it'll need a single rinse with deioninsed to
be able to dry properly. Only a single rinse, repeat rinsing is known
to kill plates.


About 15 years ago, cell lifetimes improved massively when they
started to use permeable cell separator bags - a porous membrane which
avoided many of the failure modes based around a build-up of
conductive sludge around the bottom of the plates. If you mix crud
from both inside and outside the bag (still from within the same
cell), then you're losing most of the benefit.

I used to wash the crud out of cells as part of routine maintainance.
Extended the life significantly.

FWIW you can extend life further by adding phosphoric acid. It also
much improves capacity - the downside is it only works over a narrow
concentration range, so you need to be up on battery maintenance to
derive the full benefit.


I have two car batteries. One is completely sealed from external
probing. At least I can't se a way of getting into it. The other is
one that still has fillers where you can get a hydrometer in. That's
the one I want to try and store.

The alternative is putting it on trickle charge and hoping it doesn't
die before I want to use it

You'd get limited life that way, dry storage is indefinite.


NT

wrote:
Alang wrote:
[...]
I have two car batteries. One is completely sealed from external
probing. At least I can't se a way of getting into it. The other is
one that still has fillers where you can get a hydrometer in. That's
the one I want to try and store.

The alternative is putting it on trickle charge and hoping it doesn't
die before I want to use it

Myself, given a choice, it's the modern 'maintenance free' one I'd be
keen to store. Charge it, store and forget. Typical English climate
and it'll sit there for a year and retain maybe 90% charge.
In stark contrast to those hi-falluting, hi-tek, hi-price Ni/Li types
which lose about 5% a day.
Gimme a drill fitted with an SLA any day

NI loses charge fast.

LI-ion is amazingly good.

Probably takes years to go flat.

Andy Dingley wrote:

You can buy a float charger from Optimate, although everyone I've
heard from who has one has also had it kill batteries in a pretty
short time.

I have a couple of Gunsons chargers, around the same price as Optimate
but rather bigger maximum output (around 8 amps). They have a switch
to put them into 'permanent float' mode and I use them this way to
keep my lawn tractor and my compact tractor batteries healthy through
the winter.

They've both managed two years so far and the batteries are still
happy, the mini-tractor even started OK in the very worst of the
recent cold snap after not having been used for several months.

So Gunsons chargers with 'permanent float' - recommended.

--
Chris Green

On Mon, 16 Feb 2009 15:41:50 -0800 (PST), Andy Dingley
wrote:

On 16 Feb, 18:17, Alang wrote:
On Mon, 16 Feb 2009 10:07:24 -0800 (PST), Andy Dingley

Yes, but don't put the contents back into the cells (or mix between
cells, but that's old advice anyway).

The electrolyte? As long as it's all the same SG it should be ok I
would have thought. *

Only if it's pure, clean acid. If it's the usual collection of
dissolved crud, then it's not a good idea.


I was just going to bottle it, flush the cells and seal the battery
with tape to keep the air out.

I have a pair of 6V batteries for a '30s MG, although I think they're
'50s vintage. Three glass cells in a wooden crate. They were drained
and stored in the '50s, then when refilled 40 years on they worked
fine. I plan to use them again, when I get round to it.

That's the idea here

The alternative is putting it on trickle charge and hoping it doesn't
die before I want to use it

Trickle will kill them too - you want float, and ideally temperature
compensated. Or else charge intermittently, but regularly.

I'd discharge them every now and again. I used truck batteries on
alarm systems back in the 60s. They could last 10 years on trickle
charging with the occasional discharge test. But I'd prefer dry
storage and forget until needed


You can buy a float charger from Optimate, although everyone I've
heard from who has one has also had it kill batteries in a pretty
short time.

On Mon, 16 Feb 2009 22:19:58 -0800 (PST), wrote:

Alang wrote:
On Mon, 16 Feb 2009 10:07:24 -0800 (PST), Andy Dingley
wrote:
On 16 Feb, 17:05, Alang wrote:

I know modern battery technology is supposedly different to what it
was 30 years ago but does anyone know if it is still okay to store a
dry charged car battery?

Yes, but don't put the contents back into the cells (or mix between
cells, but that's old advice anyway).

The electrolyte? As long as it's all the same SG it should be ok I
would have thought.
I was just going to bottle it, flush the cells and seal the battery
with tape to keep the air out.

Surely that would store it wet. You need to let it dry out.

Indeed

Since
sulphuric is hygroscopic it'll need a single rinse with deioninsed to
be able to dry properly. Only a single rinse, repeat rinsing is known
to kill plates.


Never done it so it hasn't come up.


About 15 years ago, cell lifetimes improved massively when they
started to use permeable cell separator bags - a porous membrane which
avoided many of the failure modes based around a build-up of
conductive sludge around the bottom of the plates. If you mix crud
from both inside and outside the bag (still from within the same
cell), then you're losing most of the benefit.

I used to wash the crud out of cells as part of routine maintainance.
Extended the life significantly.

FWIW you can extend life further by adding phosphoric acid. It also
much improves capacity - the downside is it only works over a narrow
concentration range, so you need to be up on battery maintenance to
derive the full benefit.

I'd use it as a last resort but when a battery is dead I'd get a new
one



I have two car batteries. One is completely sealed from external
probing. At least I can't se a way of getting into it. The other is
one that still has fillers where you can get a hydrometer in. That's
the one I want to try and store.

The alternative is putting it on trickle charge and hoping it doesn't
die before I want to use it

You'd get limited life that way, dry storage is indefinite.

That's what I understood but I wasn't sure with modern battery design

The Natural Philosopher wrote:

[...]
In stark contrast to those hi-falluting, hi-tek, hi-price Ni/Li types
which lose about 5% a day.
Gimme a drill fitted with an SLA any day

NI loses charge fast.

LI-ion is amazingly good.

Probably takes years to go flat.

Oops Ni/cad/'MH' etc
Yes. Lithium good. If not then there'd be mobs of villagers with
burning torches coming up my path
Have a test battery in the fridge (6V Lithium DL223A ), still good
after 9 years.
DL223A

Alang wrote:
On Mon, 16 Feb 2009 22:19:58 -0800 (PST), wrote:

FWIW you can extend life further by adding phosphoric acid. It also
much improves capacity - the downside is it only works over a narrow
concentration range, so you need to be up on battery maintenance to
derive the full benefit.

I'd use it as a last resort but when a battery is dead I'd get a new
one

Possibly a misunderstanding there. Phosphoric is not a reviver, its
something you put in when its new, or reconned. The difference it
makes is quite dramatic IMLE with it.


NT

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember Andy Dingley
saying something like:

Trickle will kill them too - you want float, and ideally temperature
compensated. Or else charge intermittently, but regularly.

One hour per day on a timer. Keeps mine charged up for years when in
standby.