On 29/12/2011 13:10, wrote:
Just heard on 't tranny...
From (some unheard date) people turning up with scrap to cash in will
need photo ID (driving licence, passport, etc) and a recent utility
bill in their address/name.

Might be a good thing and the genuine scrap collectors will be able to
arrange something. Of course, the pikeys will simply forge stuff.

More hassle. I don't have a photo license, my passport will at some
point expire and I couldn't even send my wife instead, as all the
utility bills are in my name!

What's wrong with simply requiring all payments to be made in the form
of a "refund" onto a debit card? Easy to track when numerous payments
are being made to particular accounts. The photo ID/utility bill option
could be kept for those (few) that don't have debit cards.

SteveW

On 30/12/2011 00:46, Steve Walker wrote:
On 29/12/2011 13:10, wrote:
Just heard on 't tranny...
From (some unheard date) people turning up with scrap to cash in will
need photo ID (driving licence, passport, etc) and a recent utility
bill in their address/name.

Might be a good thing and the genuine scrap collectors will be able to
arrange something. Of course, the pikeys will simply forge stuff.

More hassle. I don't have a photo license, my passport will at some
point expire and I couldn't even send my wife instead, as all the
utility bills are in my name!

What's wrong with simply requiring all payments to be made in the form
of a "refund" onto a debit card? Easy to track when numerous payments

Problem with handing over debit card details, is that the transaction
can go both ways!

are being made to particular accounts. The photo ID/utility bill option
could be kept for those (few) that don't have debit cards.

Or payment by cheque / BACS etc. For frequent (i.e. business) users they
could open an account with a scrappie, who would then credit their
account automatically on production of their scrappie issued trade card.

The difficulty with many of these systems however is that it assumes the
scrappies are honest and its only the people delivering them stuff that
are bent.

--
Cheers,

John.

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On Dec 30, 3:00*am, John Rumm wrote:

The difficulty with many of these systems however is that it assumes the
scrappies are honest and its only the people delivering them stuff that
are bent.

It is strange that this has been going on for decades or centuries
with precious metal scrap but legislation is only being proposed now,
when copper-alloys have become valuable enough to be regularly stolen
and/or the penalties have become an inadequate deterrent.

There are jewellers or pawn-brokers who pay a 'thief's price' for
jewellery, and invariably claim that they had no reason to suppose
that the smack-head/ hoodie vendor may have stolen the items. Any
attempt to trace the loot invariably finds that it has been sold on.
The stolen items are often of immense sentimental value far beyond
their scrap value.

Is there similar legislation covering the sale of precious metals or
valuables?

On 30/12/2011 13:08, dennis@home wrote:


"John Rumm" wrote in message
o.uk...

The difficulty with many of these systems however is that it assumes
the scrappies are honest and its only the people delivering them stuff
that are bent.

They will be found out by sting operations.
They also have a lot more to lose so once a few have been done things
will be better.

You could carry out those now... its seems more like a lack of will than
actual capability.


--
Cheers,

John.

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On 30/12/2011 15:22, Onetap wrote:
On Dec 30, 3:00 am, John wrote:

The difficulty with many of these systems however is that it assumes the
scrappies are honest and its only the people delivering them stuff that
are bent.

It is strange that this has been going on for decades or centuries
with precious metal scrap but legislation is only being proposed now,
when copper-alloys have become valuable enough to be regularly stolen
and/or the penalties have become an inadequate deterrent.

There are jewellers or pawn-brokers who pay a 'thief's price' for
jewellery, and invariably claim that they had no reason to suppose
that the smack-head/ hoodie vendor may have stolen the items. Any
attempt to trace the loot invariably finds that it has been sold on.
The stolen items are often of immense sentimental value far beyond
their scrap value.

Is there similar legislation covering the sale of precious metals or
valuables?

Handling stolen goods, aka "fencing" etc... as with most of these
specific laws that are proposed, they usually only restate existing ones
with less generality.

--
Cheers,

John.

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On Dec 30, 10:11 pm, John Rumm wrote:
On 30/12/2011 15:22, Onetap wrote:



On Dec 30, 3:00 am, John wrote:

The difficulty with many of these systems however is that it assumes the
scrappies are honest and its only the people delivering them stuff that
are bent.

It is strange that this has been going on for decades or centuries
with precious metal scrap but legislation is only being proposed now,
when copper-alloys have become valuable enough to be regularly stolen
and/or the penalties have become an inadequate deterrent.

There are jewellers or pawn-brokers who pay a 'thief's price' for
jewellery, and invariably claim that they had no reason to suppose
that the smack-head/ hoodie vendor may have stolen the items. Any
attempt to trace the loot invariably finds that it has been sold on.
The stolen items are often of immense sentimental value far beyond
their scrap value.

Is there similar legislation covering the sale of precious metals or
valuables?

Handling stolen goods, aka "fencing" etc... as with most of these
specific laws that are proposed, they usually only restate existing ones
with less generality.

aye- "soundbite legislation"??

Jim K

"John Rumm" wrote in message
o.uk...
# They will be found out by sting operations.
They also have a lot more to lose so once a few have been done things
will be better.

You could carry out those now... its seems more like a lack of will than
actual capability.

Carry out what?
There is no crime buying scrap.
Are you suggesting they go and try to sell scrap and tell the scrap yard
owner it is stolen to see what he does?

On Fri, 30 Dec 2011 23:50:22 -0000 Dennis@home wrote :
There is no crime buying scrap.
Are you suggesting they go and try to sell scrap and tell the scrap yard
owner it is stolen to see what he does?

There is, if you're not registered or they're under 16

Scrap Metal Dealers Act 1964

"Every local authority shall maintain a register of persons carrying on
business in their area as scrap metal dealers; and, after the expiration of
three months beginning with the commencement of this Act, no person shall
carry on business as a scrap metal dealer in the area of a local authority
unless the appropriate particulars relating to him are for the time being
entered in the register maintained by the authority under this section."
...

"If a scrap metal dealer acquires any scrap metal from a person apparently
under the age of sixteen years, whether the scrap metal is offered by that
person on his own behalf or on behalf of another person, he shall be guilty
of an offence"

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1964/69


The list of repeals includes the Old Metal Dealers Act 1861 so this trade
has obviously been a cause of legislative concern for a long time.


--
Tony Bryer, Greentram: 'Software to build on',
Melbourne, Australia www.greentram.com

On 30/12/2011 23:50, dennis@home wrote:


"John Rumm" wrote in message
o.uk...
# They will be found out by sting operations.
They also have a lot more to lose so once a few have been done things
will be better.

You could carry out those now... its seems more like a lack of will
than actual capability.

Carry out what?

Sting operations on the scrap yards...

There is no crime buying scrap.

There is if its obviously stolen...

Are you suggesting they go and try to sell scrap and tell the scrap yard
owner it is stolen to see what he does?

Journalists did that just recently:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/mobile/uk-16165179

"Secret filming

An employee of Lowes Metals of Grays, Essex, who referred to himself as
Bubsy, looked at the BT cable and told an undercover researcher: "You
can't touch BT, they'll lock us up straight away."

He instructed the researcher to "burn the rubber off, stretch the copper
off".

Bubsy added: "The BT stuff is like doing a bank today."

The next day, after researchers followed his instructions, Bubsy
purchased the cable.

"He's identified it as BT cable," said Det Sgt Chris Hearne from BTP."

--
Cheers,

John.

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