new ring all wired up and waiting connection to CU, which I will do
once I have performed standard tests on it.

my question is how do people deal with paranoia issues? for example..
I am always worried that the action of pushing the fitting back into
the pattress has found a weakness in my stripping, twisting, screwing
in and loosened a cable or something. My standard practice is to leave
it over night then unscrew the fitting and tug on the wires with
needle nosed pliers to check they are still all secure - its total
paranoia I realize, I should just trust my handiwork.

Failing that I should trust the RCBO to detect faults (as it did when
I trod a junction box in the loft and ended up rewiring my whole
upstairs light ring, only with no junction boxes).

What do sparkies do? they clearly don't have time to double check all
their work - do they push it into place on the pattress then pull it
out again and visually inspect? or do they never make errors?

What do DIYers do? do they worry about every little detail in their
work?

JJ

On Wed, 27 Jan 2010 04:17:11 -0800 (PST), JJ
wrote:

new ring all wired up and waiting connection to CU, which I will do
once I have performed standard tests on it.

my question is how do people deal with paranoia issues? for example..
I am always worried that the action of pushing the fitting back into
the pattress has found a weakness in my stripping, twisting, screwing
in and loosened a cable or something. My standard practice is to leave
it over night then unscrew the fitting and tug on the wires with
needle nosed pliers to check they are still all secure - its total
paranoia I realize, I should just trust my handiwork.

Failing that I should trust the RCBO to detect faults (as it did when
I trod a junction box in the loft and ended up rewiring my whole
upstairs light ring, only with no junction boxes).

What do sparkies do? they clearly don't have time to double check all
their work - do they push it into place on the pattress then pull it
out again and visually inspect? or do they never make errors?

What do DIYers do? do they worry about every little detail in their
work?

JJ


I'm sure others who do this regularly will concur that the problem is
part paranoia and part something else but I have found that it's best
to just have enough outer insulation stripped within the box and cut
the wires at the right length so that you don't overcrowd the box when
you push them back in with the faceplate . When you do push the
faceplate back it will naturally fold the wires so possibly you could
bend the wires yourself so they fit in to place neatly as you screw
the faceplate on . Along with making sure the wires are held securely
on the faceplate and no bare wires are showing .
And stop fretting ....:-)

"JJ" wrote in message
...
new ring all wired up and waiting connection to CU, which I will do
once I have performed standard tests on it.

my question is how do people deal with paranoia issues? for example..
I am always worried that the action of pushing the fitting back into
the pattress has found a weakness in my stripping, twisting, screwing
in and loosened a cable or something. My standard practice is to leave
it over night then unscrew the fitting and tug on the wires with
needle nosed pliers to check they are still all secure - its total
paranoia I realize, I should just trust my handiwork.

Failing that I should trust the RCBO to detect faults (as it did when
I trod a junction box in the loft and ended up rewiring my whole
upstairs light ring, only with no junction boxes).

What do sparkies do? they clearly don't have time to double check all
their work - do they push it into place on the pattress then pull it
out again and visually inspect? or do they never make errors?

What do DIYers do? do they worry about every little detail in their
work?

JJ


Hi mate

The ideal thing to do would be an insulation and proper continuity test at
the CU.

You can forget the insulation test if you do not have the tester. If you
have trapped a cable then the RCBO will let you know. Personally I do not
twist cables together. It does not matter that you have decided to do this
but I do not recommend it.

Even a simple continuity check of the LL, NN and EE of the ring at the CU is
all you need to make sure that a cable has not "popped out".

A good tug on the wires when you first install the socket is all you really
need to do to check that they are secure.

HTH

Adam

On Jan 27, 12:17 pm, JJ wrote:
new ring all wired up and waiting connection to CU, which I will do
once I have performed standard tests on it.

my question is how do people deal with paranoia issues? for example..
I am always worried that the action of pushing the fitting back into
the pattress has found a weakness in my stripping, twisting, screwing
in and loosened a cable or something. My standard practice is to leave
it over night then unscrew the fitting and tug on the wires with
needle nosed pliers to check they are still all secure - its total
paranoia I realize, I should just trust my handiwork.

Failing that I should trust the RCBO to detect faults (as it did when
I trod a junction box in the loft and ended up rewiring my whole
upstairs light ring, only with no junction boxes).

What do sparkies do? they clearly don't have time to double check all
their work - do they push it into place on the pattress then pull it
out again and visually inspect? or do they never make errors?

What do DIYers do? do they worry about every little detail in their
work?

JJ


surely your "standard tests" will reveal any wiring clangers *before*
you get to the RCD bit?

JimK

On 27 Jan, 12:17, JJ wrote:

What do DIYers do?

I buy decent fittings. Well machined cable clamp screws give far fewer
problems than loose rattly ones.

On 27/01/2010 12:17, JJ wrote:
new ring all wired up and waiting connection to CU, which I will do
once I have performed standard tests on it.

my question is how do people deal with paranoia issues? for example..
I am always worried that the action of pushing the fitting back into
the pattress has found a weakness in my stripping, twisting, screwing
in and loosened a cable or something. My standard practice is to leave
it over night then unscrew the fitting and tug on the wires with
needle nosed pliers to check they are still all secure - its total
paranoia I realize, I should just trust my handiwork.

Failing that I should trust the RCBO to detect faults (as it did when
I trod a junction box in the loft and ended up rewiring my whole
upstairs light ring, only with no junction boxes).

What do sparkies do? they clearly don't have time to double check all
their work - do they push it into place on the pattress then pull it
out again and visually inspect? or do they never make errors?


Sparkies develop (from training and experience) an understanding of what
can go wrong and how it goes wrong and learn over time how to do it
right the first time. There are a few things that can go wrong, such as: -

- Not stripping the wire cleanly, i.e. leaving nicks in the copper
which can fracture.
- Not getting wire(s) seated in the terminal properly.
- Not tightening up the terminal screw properly.
- Trapping or crushing the wires when offering the plate up to the backbox.

Good tools and good technique will ensure that these faults can't or
don't happen. However, good sparkies do *of course* double check their
work. They will have been taught to do so and will take flack from their
colleagues if shoddy work is subsequently discovered (as it may well be
after testing).

For me, I always visually inspect (to make sure that the wires are
correctly seated and that L & N are not swapped), I usually tweak the
terminal screws and I usually re-arrange the wires behind a socket if
it's hard to push the socket plate to its final resting place. I
wouldn't go so far as to check the next morning.

What do DIYers do? do they worry about every little detail in their
work?


Well, like anything in life, it depends on the person. Some people are
bodgers. Worse, some people are ignorant bodgers. Others take a
professional (good enough) view and some take a perfectionist view. This
applies to both amateurs and professionals.

There are a good few people on this NG who like to do things properly,
even if it takes longer or is more expensive. After all, the Diyer has
to live with their own work and suffer the consequences of a poor job.

In article
,
JJ wrote:
my question is how do people deal with paranoia issues? for example..
I am always worried that the action of pushing the fitting back into
the pattress has found a weakness in my stripping, twisting, screwing
in and loosened a cable or something. My standard practice is to leave
it over night then unscrew the fitting and tug on the wires with
needle nosed pliers to check they are still all secure - its total
paranoia I realize, I should just trust my handiwork.

Tighten the screws *properly* using an ordinary screwdriver where the
blade and shaft is the same width as the screws. *Not* an 'electrician's'
type. I've never ever broken a screw doing this - but I've come across
plenty which haven't been tightened properly and have failed.
Cable won't come to any harm through being flexed back into position. Try
breaking a spare bit by flexing it back and forwards to see what I mean.

--
*Growing old is inevitable, growing up is optional

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
JJ wrote:

new ring all wired up and waiting connection to CU, which I will do
once I have performed standard tests on it.

my question is how do people deal with paranoia issues? for example..
I am always worried that the action of pushing the fitting back into
the pattress has found a weakness in my stripping, twisting, screwing
in and loosened a cable or something. My standard practice is to leave
it over night then unscrew the fitting and tug on the wires with
needle nosed pliers to check they are still all secure - its total
paranoia I realize, I should just trust my handiwork.

Failing that I should trust the RCBO to detect faults (as it did when
I trod a junction box in the loft and ended up rewiring my whole
upstairs light ring, only with no junction boxes).

What do sparkies do? they clearly don't have time to double check all
their work - do they push it into place on the pattress then pull it
out again and visually inspect? or do they never make errors?

What do DIYers do? do they worry about every little detail in their
work?

JJ


Make sure the screws are tight, and 'help' the cables to fold into place
neatly when replacing the faceplate. In particular, make sure that all
cables are well clear of the screws. Many years ago - when I was young and
foolish(!) - I managed to get a live wire in such a place that the screw cut
through the insulation when I did it up - resulting in a big bang and a
somewhat blackened fitting when I turned the mains on. With any luck, you
only do that *once*!
--
Cheers,
Roger
______
Email address maintained for newsgroup use only, and not regularly
monitored.. Messages sent to it may not be read for several weeks.
PLEASE REPLY TO NEWSGROUP!

"Roger Mills" wrote in message
...
In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
JJ wrote:

new ring all wired up and waiting connection to CU, which I will do
once I have performed standard tests on it.

my question is how do people deal with paranoia issues? for example..
I am always worried that the action of pushing the fitting back into
the pattress has found a weakness in my stripping, twisting, screwing
in and loosened a cable or something. My standard practice is to leave
it over night then unscrew the fitting and tug on the wires with
needle nosed pliers to check they are still all secure - its total
paranoia I realize, I should just trust my handiwork.

Failing that I should trust the RCBO to detect faults (as it did when
I trod a junction box in the loft and ended up rewiring my whole
upstairs light ring, only with no junction boxes).

What do sparkies do? they clearly don't have time to double check all
their work - do they push it into place on the pattress then pull it
out again and visually inspect? or do they never make errors?

What do DIYers do? do they worry about every little detail in their
work?

JJ


Make sure the screws are tight, and 'help' the cables to fold into place
neatly when replacing the faceplate. In particular, make sure that all
cables are well clear of the screws. Many years ago - when I was young and
foolish(!) - I managed to get a live wire in such a place that the screw
cut through the insulation when I did it up - resulting in a big bang and
a somewhat blackened fitting when I turned the mains on. With any luck,
you only do that *once*!
--
Cheers,
Roger

Tilers are sent on special courses to help them them do that.

Adam

JJ
wibbled on Wednesday 27 January 2010 12:17

new ring all wired up and waiting connection to CU, which I will do
once I have performed standard tests on it.

my question is how do people deal with paranoia issues? for example..
I am always worried that the action of pushing the fitting back into
the pattress has found a weakness in my stripping, twisting, screwing
in and loosened a cable or something. My standard practice is to leave
it over night then unscrew the fitting and tug on the wires with
needle nosed pliers to check they are still all secure - its total
paranoia I realize, I should just trust my handiwork.

Failing that I should trust the RCBO to detect faults (as it did when
I trod a junction box in the loft and ended up rewiring my whole
upstairs light ring, only with no junction boxes).

What do sparkies do? they clearly don't have time to double check all
their work - do they push it into place on the pattress then pull it
out again and visually inspect? or do they never make errors?

What do DIYers do? do they worry about every little detail in their
work?

JJ


I

a) Use 35mm back boxes (accept you may be rewiring into existing shallower
ones)

b) I use the "wire is as long as the diagonal of the box" rule of thumb.
Then I form the wires into smooth loops so that they tend to collapse
helically when the plate is replaced. Doing this right helps avoids the
screws. I also accept this is more difficult with a 25mm box.

c) I test everything using a low ohms meter (Megger, but if you have a high
quality multimeter, it would go a long way to being useful) and an
insulation test. Even a low quality meter will find basic breaks and
gratuitous problems. Are you familiar with end-end and "figure-8" tests? You
need a test plug for the latter, so you can short the wires at the CU then
make tests at every socket.

HTH

Tim

--
Tim Watts

Managers, politicians and environmentalists: Nature's carbon buffer.

thanks for the feedback, in answer to points ..

- the continuity test and continuity test will follow before
connection, I do have the proper testers but they are out of cal and
SH - I run on the assumption thats better then nothing. (I don't have
a loop tester, but I have everything else).

- the twisting of ring elements is an interesting point. I do it
because I read in the docs that its recommended, though other people
here clearly think its a bad idea. I know firsthand that it does
weaken the copper doing it, but it also reducing the chances of a
single section becoming unattached. whats the official recommendation
on this one? I don't remember seeing any reference in 17th on it.

- if I make an error then the RCBO will trip and a basic error will be
found by my plug tester anyhow, never had one yet.

- I guess I am paranoid and finicky, but on the plus side I do not
have a great tendency to bodge things together....

once again, thanks for your thoughts.

In article
,
JJ wrote:
- the twisting of ring elements is an interesting point. I do it
because I read in the docs that its recommended, though other people
here clearly think its a bad idea. I know firsthand that it does
weaken the copper doing it, but it also reducing the chances of a
single section becoming unattached. whats the official recommendation
on this one? I don't remember seeing any reference in 17th on it.

I have mixed thoughts on this. I always used to do it - just tight enough
so they wouldn't separate when inserting in the terminal. That way you
could be sure all were fully seated - especially when three. But now I
don't. I use an insulation stripping tool which can be set to a length and
strip off the insulation just a tiny bit more than the depth of the hole.
So a quick glance shows them all properly seated.

--
*7up is good for you, signed snow white*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Wed, 27 Jan 2010 04:36:42 -0800 (PST), Andy Dingley
wrote:

On 27 Jan, 12:17, JJ wrote:

What do DIYers do?

I buy decent fittings. Well machined cable clamp screws give far fewer
problems than loose rattly ones.

I always used to 'tin' the ends of my DIY house wiring after stripping
it to the right length and before poking into a fitting. So often I
found that wiring by 'professionals' was merely making contact via a
few strands because of unravelling at the ends.

DJ

JJ wrote:
new ring all wired up and waiting connection to CU, which I will do
once I have performed standard tests on it.

my question is how do people deal with paranoia issues? for example..
I am always worried that the action of pushing the fitting back into
the pattress has found a weakness in my stripping, twisting, screwing
in and loosened a cable or something. My standard practice is to leave
it over night then unscrew the fitting and tug on the wires with
needle nosed pliers to check they are still all secure - its total
paranoia I realize, I should just trust my handiwork.

I always use a plug in tester, which should throw up any wire thats come
out. Won't detect a loose wire of course.


--
Dave - The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk

Make sure the screws are tight, and 'help' the cables to fold into place
neatly when replacing the faceplate. In particular, make sure that all
cables are well clear of the screws. Many years ago - when I was young and
foolish(!) - I managed to get a live wire in such a place that the screw
cut through the insulation when I did it up - resulting in a big bang and
a somewhat blackened fitting when I turned the mains on. With any luck,
you only do that *once*!
--
Cheers,
Roger


I did the same when fitting a new dimmer switch. It damaged the cable so I
had to run in a new length as it wasn't long enough after I cut out the
damaged bit.

"Roger Mills" wrote in message
...

Make sure the screws are tight, and 'help' the cables to fold into place
neatly when replacing the faceplate. In particular, make sure that all
cables are well clear of the screws. Many years ago - when I was young and
foolish(!) - I managed to get a live wire in such a place that the screw
cut through the insulation when I did it up - resulting in a big bang and
a somewhat blackened fitting when I turned the mains on. With any luck,
you only do that *once*!


Yep, been there, done that!!!!

Tim..

On Wed, 27 Jan 2010 18:31:25 -0000, "Tim.."
wrote:



"Roger Mills" wrote in message
...

Make sure the screws are tight, and 'help' the cables to fold into place
neatly when replacing the faceplate. In particular, make sure that all
cables are well clear of the screws. Many years ago - when I was young and
foolish(!) - I managed to get a live wire in such a place that the screw
cut through the insulation when I did it up - resulting in a big bang and
a somewhat blackened fitting when I turned the mains on. With any luck,
you only do that *once*!


Yep, been there, done that!!!!

Tim..

And me !!!

On Wed, 27 Jan 2010 16:08:29 +0000, David J
wrote:

On Wed, 27 Jan 2010 04:36:42 -0800 (PST), Andy Dingley
wrote:

On 27 Jan, 12:17, JJ wrote:

What do DIYers do?

I buy decent fittings. Well machined cable clamp screws give far fewer
problems than loose rattly ones.

I always used to 'tin' the ends of my DIY house wiring after stripping
it to the right length and before poking into a fitting. So often I
found that wiring by 'professionals' was merely making contact via a
few strands because of unravelling at the ends.

DJ

Would there be any advantage in having a small section of softish
metal tubing that you could slip over the end of the conductors which
would be crushed down when you tightened the screw ...or...something
you crimped over the end which would keep the strands all together .

I'm sure I have seen something similar on flex on items that I have
bought as well as some where the ends have been tinned

"JJ" wrote in message
...
new ring all wired up and waiting connection to CU, which I will do
once I have performed standard tests on it.

my question is how do people deal with paranoia issues? for example..
I am always worried that the action of pushing the fitting back into
the pattress has found a weakness in my stripping, twisting, screwing
in and loosened a cable or something. My standard practice is to leave
it over night then unscrew the fitting and tug on the wires with
needle nosed pliers to check they are still all secure - its total
paranoia I realize, I should just trust my handiwork.

Failing that I should trust the RCBO to detect faults (as it did when
I trod a junction box in the loft and ended up rewiring my whole
upstairs light ring, only with no junction boxes).

What do sparkies do? they clearly don't have time to double check all
their work - do they push it into place on the pattress then pull it
out again and visually inspect? or do they never make errors?

What do DIYers do? do they worry about every little detail in their
work?


One thing to watch is that if you are using metal boxes, that you do not get
a wire trapped under screw when you screw on faceplate ... SWHBO had removed
screw to pull fittings away from wall for painting, and pinched a neutral
wire on screwing back up ... it was weeks later we started getting spurious
rccd trips ...... it took a concerted effort and many many hours to trace
the fault ... which was arcing on Neutral to box ... presumably only when
ring under high load (and hence high neutral imbalance.)

I told he to be more careful in future, and if she didn't improve I wouldn't
let her go up on roof to point the chimney.

In message , Rick Hughes
writes
One thing to watch is that if you are using metal boxes, that you do
not get a wire trapped under screw when you screw on faceplate ...
SWHBO had removed screw to pull fittings away from wall for painting,

I wish my wife WOULD do that, she manages to paint sockets, light
switches, telephone points and just about everything else attached to
the wall when she gets the painting bug.



I told he to be more careful in future, and if she didn't improve I
wouldn't let her go up on roof to point the chimney.

Sounds fair to me :-)

--
Bill

On 27/01/2010 16:08, David J wrote:
On Wed, 27 Jan 2010 04:36:42 -0800 (PST), Andy Dingley
wrote:

On 27 Jan, 12:17, wrote:

What do DIYers do?

I buy decent fittings. Well machined cable clamp screws give far fewer
problems than loose rattly ones.

I always used to 'tin' the ends of my DIY house wiring after stripping
it to the right length and before poking into a fitting. So often I
found that wiring by 'professionals' was merely making contact via a
few strands because of unravelling at the ends.

DJ


Maybe, but tinning was never the answer. Solder exhibits a mechanical
property called "cold flow". If you tin the end of a wire and then trap
the tinned wire in a compression terminal, the solder will flow away
from the pressure points and the joint will become loose. Copper does
not exhibit this effect.

This equally applies to power and low voltage (data) wiring.

HTH
DaveyOz.

ARWadsworth presented the following explanation :
A good tug on the wires when you first install the socket is all you really
need to do to check that they are secure.

I would suggest a good waggle to make sure they are well seated, then a
final tighten.

--
Regards,
Harry (M1BYT) (L)
http://www.ukradioamateur.co.uk

Dave Osborne presented the following explanation :
Maybe, but tinning was never the answer. Solder exhibits a mechanical
property called "cold flow". If you tin the end of a wire and then trap the
tinned wire in a compression terminal, the solder will flow away from the
pressure points and the joint will become loose. Copper does not exhibit this
effect.

This equally applies to power and low voltage (data) wiring.

Exactly, Never tin!

--
Regards,
Harry (M1BYT) (L)
http://www.ukradioamateur.co.uk

"David J" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 27 Jan 2010 04:36:42 -0800 (PST), Andy Dingley
wrote:

On 27 Jan, 12:17, JJ wrote:

What do DIYers do?

I buy decent fittings. Well machined cable clamp screws give far fewer
problems than loose rattly ones.

I always used to 'tin' the ends of my DIY house wiring after stripping
it to the right length and before poking into a fitting. So often I
found that wiring by 'professionals' was merely making contact via a
few strands because of unravelling at the ends.

DJ


It's in the regs now, that ends should not be soldered if retained by a
screw.

Stewith
wibbled on Wednesday 27 January 2010 21:35


It's in the regs now, that ends should not be soldered if retained by a
screw.

And "they" (engineers in general) knew of this issue decades ago - first
thing my Dad did if he saw a tinned wire on an appliance was chop it off
before he put the plug on.

I went to the trouble to get some ferrules (uninsulated) in various sizes
and a crimp tool to deal with this. Not expensive if you shop around and
Rapid have a good range of ferrules.

--
Tim Watts

Managers, politicians and environmentalists: Nature's carbon buffer.

Use deep backboxes.
35mm for sockets, 25mm for lights (35mm if a dimmer).

Use large oval.
Cable pulled off a reel retains a curve albeit of much larger radius,
when pushed through oval people tend to kink this curve out resulting
in a zig-zag down oval. Either use large oval to accommodate this or
always fit two runs of oval even to light drops (permits loop-in-
switch, neutral present, rather than loop-in ceiling-rose). Capping is
the work of the devil if you need to replace the cable (sods law says
it can be difficult, always use oval behind tiles just re time/risk of
removing/refitting a few).

Use 25mm round if multiple cables.
20mm round is good for a few cables, but nothing beats 25mm if you
have the space. Use a holepunch to enlarge 20mm holes where necessary
to take 25mm - particularly larger MK Grid.

Preform your cables.
Sheath terminates inside the box, sweep insulated cores around the
bottom & back up to the L-N-E terminal positions, then bend them
outwards ready to enter the terminals. Fiddly with 1G (use 47mm if 3
cables), easy with 2G (35mm ample for most situations with 2.5mm).
When entering terminals verify conductors have not stacked,
particularly if there are 3 because one will pop out.
Obsessives align the L-CPC-N of the cable to match the wiring
accessory when dropping down the oval so no crossing over and neat.
Obsessives will get everything preformed, fit, push back, pull out to
check nothing pulled out, retighten, push back again.

Check the backbox is shaped right, holes ok.
Some fused connection units (spur) are quite wide bodied inside and
any "dented-in" box can cause the lugs to obstruct fitting. Quite a
few backboxes have poor/spinning earth terminals or 1-thread/stripped
lug terminals.
Some like to bend unused lugs back (pliers) if several cables as it
prevents insulation getting nicked.

Double insulate the cores.
It can arouse suspicions but in tight 1G boxes or grid it can be worth
sleeving bl/br the existing conductors with flexible but tight fitting
sleeves. If you do snag with a screw the sleeve takes the hit and not
the insulation.

Do not overtighten on 1.0/1.5mm FTE CPC.
The 1mm CPC is easily flattened such that light flexion will cause a
break (typically as you push it backwards). Likewise small conductors
can miss on terminals and slip-sideways past the screw so become
loose. For these small conductors loop them so there is a double-
contact area which will permit sound tightening without crushing.

Plaster is a lot stronger than you think.
If you ever think you may need to access a block of cables, to replace
one or add one, make provision for it re trunking or flexible/rigid
conduit stopping short at corners with capping to cover.

Corner protection of cables.
During decoration people often run a knife down a wall corner, a fresh
sharp blade can go deep into plaster so if you can't get the depth
stick some broken oval or plastic L-angle into the corner. Most trades
do not know the 150mm rule.

Conduit between boxes.
In a room you may do double vertical drops to sockets etc, but also
put horizontal conduit links in where the wall is flat. You may never
need to add another wiring accessory, but it means if you do it is
just a case of slicing through and inserting a backbox accordingly.


Basically preform your wires so the conductors simply fall into the
wiring accessory - rather than dragging a rats nest of cables around
which are much more likely to get snagged by the cover screws.

I did once try cutting plastic sheet slightly longer than a backbox
height and snapping it into place so it bowed out past the lug
terminals - no cable could ever be snagged. Instead I simply use low
depth screws, and form cables away from the screws. Double insulating
is worth doing, it does prevent lug terminals or screws damaging the
insulation.