A few months back, my old mechanical meter was replaced with one of these
small white Landis & Gyr jobs that has an LCD display, and a small blue
button to cycle through the available displays of recorded units, totals,
time etc. I check it most days, and was surprised to find that this morning,
at 9am, it was still reading Economy 7 units - or whatever they call them
these days. A few minutes later, the reading had increased by one,
confirming that it was indeed still recording night units. I scrolled
through the readings, and was intrigued to find that the clock was 4 hours
slow, so the meter did indeed 'think' that it was still in the Economy 7
period.

So, does anyone know how the clock is set on these ? I was present, chatting
to the fitter the whole time he was doing the job, and I don't recall him
doing anything to the meter, other than removing it from the box, screwing
it to the board, and wiring it in.

I'm thinking that maybe time synchronisation signals are superimposed on the
grid, and that these meters can read them, or maybe that they have a DSF
type receiver in them for getting the time - in fact now that I think about
it, I have a dim recollection of reading that somewhere. But in either case,
I would have thought that the update was every few seconds, or minutes at
worst, so how did my clock get 4 hours behind in the first place, and why
has it not 'caught up' ? It was correct yesterday, so it's something that's
happened 'suddenly'.

At 11am, it changed over, confirming that this is all down to the clock
having the wrong time. I wonder who, in the event of this carrying on for
any length of time, is responsible for the fact that I would be getting
'cheap' (er!) electricity for 4 hours longer than I should be ... ? :-)

Arfa

On 17 Sep, 12:47, "Arfa Daily" wrote:
A few months back, my old mechanical meter was replaced with one of these
small white Landis & Gyr jobs that has an LCD display, and a small blue
button to cycle through the available displays of recorded units, totals,

What fun! Mine have no such options at all. Just boring old total
digits and blinking LEDs.

time etc. I check it most days, and was surprised to find that this morning,
at 9am, it was still reading Economy 7 units - or whatever they call them
these days. A few minutes later, the reading had increased by one,
confirming that it was indeed still recording night units. I scrolled
through the readings, and was intrigued to find that the clock was 4 hours
slow, so the meter did indeed 'think' that it was still in the Economy 7
period.

So, does anyone know how the clock is set on these ? I was present, chatting
to the fitter the whole time he was doing the job, and I don't recall him
doing anything to the meter, other than removing it from the box, screwing
it to the board, and wiring it in.

I'm thinking that maybe time synchronisation signals are superimposed on the
grid, and that these meters can read them, or maybe that they have a DSF
type receiver in them for getting the time - in fact now that I think about
it, I have a dim recollection of reading that somewhere. But in either case,
I would have thought that the update was every few seconds, or minutes at
worst, so how did my clock get 4 hours behind in the first place, and why
has it not 'caught up' ? It was correct yesterday, so it's something that's
happened 'suddenly'.

At 11am, it changed over, confirming that this is all down to the clock
having the wrong time. I wonder who, in the event of this carrying on for
any length of time, is responsible for the fact that I would be getting
'cheap' (er!) electricity for 4 hours longer than I should be ... *? *:-)

Arfa

I'd be more worried that you're probably paying for expensive
electricity for 4 hours longer than you think at the other end of the
day :-( I hope you don't have storage heaters!

Chris

"Arfa Daily" wrote in message
...

At 11am, it changed over, confirming that this is all down to the clock
having the wrong time. I wonder who, in the event of this carrying on for
any length of time, is responsible for the fact that I would be getting
'cheap' (er!) electricity for 4 hours longer than I should be ... ? :-)

Can't answer your question but if the clock is four hours adrift then surely
you would start getting 'cheap' (er) electricity 4 hours later than you
should be so you are not gaining anything, (4 hours less at the begining and
4 hours more at the end, therefore net difference = Nil)!

"Arfa Daily" wrote in message
...
A few months back, my old mechanical meter was replaced with one of these
small white Landis & Gyr jobs that has an LCD display, and a small blue
button to cycle through the available displays of recorded units, totals,
time etc. I check it most days, and was surprised to find that this
morning, at 9am, it was still reading Economy 7 units - or whatever they
call them these days. A few minutes later, the reading had increased by
one, confirming that it was indeed still recording night units. I scrolled
through the readings, and was intrigued to find that the clock was 4 hours
slow, so the meter did indeed 'think' that it was still in the Economy 7
period.

So, does anyone know how the clock is set on these ? I was present,
chatting to the fitter the whole time he was doing the job, and I don't
recall him doing anything to the meter, other than removing it from the
box, screwing it to the board, and wiring it in.

Does it have large metal washer thingy embedded in it, probably under a
cover? I think that it's programmed through this somehow.

tim

"tim....." wrote in message
...

"Arfa Daily" wrote in message
...
A few months back, my old mechanical meter was replaced with one of these
small white Landis & Gyr jobs that has an LCD display, and a small blue
button to cycle through the available displays of recorded units, totals,
time etc. I check it most days, and was surprised to find that this
morning, at 9am, it was still reading Economy 7 units - or whatever they
call them these days. A few minutes later, the reading had increased by
one, confirming that it was indeed still recording night units. I scrolled
through the readings, and was intrigued to find that the clock was 4 hours
slow, so the meter did indeed 'think' that it was still in the Economy 7
period.

So, does anyone know how the clock is set on these ? I was present,
chatting to the fitter the whole time he was doing the job, and I don't
recall him doing anything to the meter, other than removing it from the
box, screwing it to the board, and wiring it in.

Does it have large metal washer thingy embedded in it, probably under a
cover? I think that it's programmed through this somehow.

tim



There is no additional switching for the 'night-time' circuit, which is
actually just one storage heater in the extension, on its own timeswitch.
There *is* what looks like an optical port on the front. There are what look
like two standard 5mm LEDs with water clear encapsulation, side by side, and
visible through a clear window in the front of it. One of these LEDs flashes
red at the 'consumption rate', so is a LED equivalent of the paint marker on
the old rotating disc. The more power you are consuming, the faster it
flashes. I assume that the other 'LED' is actually a photodiode. When I
first saw it, I thought that the pair served as an optical interface for the
meter reader man, it not being a remotely readable type, but no. When the
guy came to read it for the first time a couple of weeks ago, he used a
torch (the LCD has no backlight ... ) and pressed the button to get the
various usage totals up, and then recorded them manually into his little
handheld thingy. Oh how technology improves our lives ... :-)

So, maybe it is a programming port, but I can't believe that the clock just
relies on being programmed right in the first place, does it ? Seems odd
that it is *exactly* 4 hours wrong now to the minute, but was correct when
checked yeaterday.

Arfa

"John" wrote in message ...

"Arfa Daily" wrote in message
...

At 11am, it changed over, confirming that this is all down to the clock
having the wrong time. I wonder who, in the event of this carrying on for
any length of time, is responsible for the fact that I would be getting
'cheap' (er!) electricity for 4 hours longer than I should be ... ? :-)

Can't answer your question but if the clock is four hours adrift then
surely you would start getting 'cheap' (er) electricity 4 hours later than
you should be so you are not gaining anything, (4 hours less at the
begining and 4 hours more at the end, therefore net difference = Nil)!

If the meter is serving all his electric usage (rather than specifically
storage heaters), then the shift of his cheap-lecky-period may be to
advantage.
If he or er-indoors/significant-other-partner-type-person[1] does the
washing before 11 am for instance, his heavy usage would be on the cheap
tariff.
This will be somewhat negated by more expensive late evening costs if he has
electric heating of course.

Phil

[1] Just about to sign off when it occurred that er-indoors is sooo non-PC.

On Thu, 17 Sep 2009 13:38:39 +0100, John wrote:

"Arfa Daily" wrote in message
...

At 11am, it changed over, confirming that this is all down to the clock
having the wrong time. I wonder who, in the event of this carrying on for
any length of time, is responsible for the fact that I would be getting
'cheap' (er!) electricity for 4 hours longer than I should be ... ? :-)

Can't answer your question but if the clock is four hours adrift then surely
you would start getting 'cheap' (er) electricity 4 hours later than you
should be so you are not gaining anything, (4 hours less at the begining and
4 hours more at the end, therefore net difference = Nil)!

At a more useful time of day, though - 0100 start is a bit late for shower
etc.
Mine goes over at 0807 but will be 0707 in 6 weeks' time :-(
--
Peter.
The head of a pin will hold more angels if
it's been flattened with an angel-grinder.

"John" wrote in message
...

"Arfa Daily" wrote in message
...

At 11am, it changed over, confirming that this is all down to the clock
having the wrong time. I wonder who, in the event of this carrying on for
any length of time, is responsible for the fact that I would be getting
'cheap' (er!) electricity for 4 hours longer than I should be ... ? :-)

Can't answer your question but if the clock is four hours adrift then
surely you would start getting 'cheap' (er) electricity 4 hours later than
you should be so you are not gaining anything, (4 hours less at the
begining and 4 hours more at the end, therefore net difference = Nil)!


Yep. That's kinda true. Except at night (at the moment) nothing much other
than vampire consumption, whereas quite heavy usage 8am onwards, so some
advantage at this time. However, in a few weeks when it gets a bit colder,
'tis true that this would be negated by the single storage heater in the
extension, which would normally be coming on about 1am. However, the
*actual* time is of little consequence, and it has its own time switch ...
See where I'm going with this ... ? :-)

Arfa

"Arfa Daily" wrote in message
...
A few months back, my old mechanical meter was replaced with one of these
small white Landis & Gyr jobs that has an LCD display, and a small blue
button to cycle through the available displays of recorded units, totals,
time etc. I check it most days, and was surprised to find that this
morning, at 9am, it was still reading Economy 7 units - or whatever they
call them these days. A few minutes later, the reading had increased by
one, confirming that it was indeed still recording night units. I scrolled
through the readings, and was intrigued to find that the clock was 4 hours
slow, so the meter did indeed 'think' that it was still in the Economy 7
period.

So, does anyone know how the clock is set on these ? I was present,
chatting to the fitter the whole time he was doing the job, and I don't
recall him doing anything to the meter, other than removing it from the
box, screwing it to the board, and wiring it in.

I'm thinking that maybe time synchronisation signals are superimposed on
the grid, and that these meters can read them, or maybe that they have a
DSF type receiver in them for getting the time - in fact now that I think
about it, I have a dim recollection of reading that somewhere. But in
either case, I would have thought that the update was every few seconds,
or minutes at worst, so how did my clock get 4 hours behind in the first
place, and why has it not 'caught up' ? It was correct yesterday, so it's
something that's happened 'suddenly'.

At 11am, it changed over, confirming that this is all down to the clock
having the wrong time. I wonder who, in the event of this carrying on for
any length of time, is responsible for the fact that I would be getting
'cheap' (er!) electricity for 4 hours longer than I should be ... ? :-)

Arfa


Our flats communal lighting hallways, stairs and car park switches to cheap
rate at night - except that the time switch was hours slow so we paid peak
rate all night the other winter as nobody (including the now sacked managing
agents) was monitoring the charges. EDF put the clock right but wouldn't
discuss any refund. Fortunately not a fortune between 24 flats but it is
worth checking the clock. I also had a work colleague whose clock was 12
hours slow/fast, now that was worth not complaining about!

Peter

On Thu, 17 Sep 2009 05:37:53 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

I'd be more worried that you're probably paying for expensive
electricity for 4 hours longer than you think at the other end of the
day :-(

Hopefully the whole 7 hours has just shifted and as that doesn't
normally start until 0100(ish) there is little risk there unless the
tumble dryer and washer as set on time switches to be in the wee
small hours.

I hope you don't have storage heaters!

He does but only one but that is on an independant time switch which
will need keeping in sync with the meters clock. This isn't a problem
with properly installed storage heaters as they are normally
connected to their own switched suply, controlled by the meter, so
they only have power during the cheap period.

Why the clcok is now 4hrs slow is an odd one. If there is any
identifying marks numbers etc on the meter try feeding them into to
google to see if more information about the meter can be found. It
may have a radio receiver in it, which uses phase modulation(?) on R4
LW 198kHz to get time information and possibly when to switch rates.

--
Cheers
Dave.

"Dave Liquorice" wrote in message
ll.co.uk...
On Thu, 17 Sep 2009 05:37:53 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

I'd be more worried that you're probably paying for expensive
electricity for 4 hours longer than you think at the other end of the
day :-(

Hopefully the whole 7 hours has just shifted and as that doesn't
normally start until 0100(ish) there is little risk there unless the
tumble dryer and washer as set on time switches to be in the wee
small hours.

I hope you don't have storage heaters!

He does but only one but that is on an independant time switch which
will need keeping in sync with the meters clock. This isn't a problem
with properly installed storage heaters as they are normally
connected to their own switched suply, controlled by the meter, so
they only have power during the cheap period.

Why the clcok is now 4hrs slow is an odd one. If there is any
identifying marks numbers etc on the meter try feeding them into to
google to see if more information about the meter can be found. It
may have a radio receiver in it, which uses phase modulation(?) on R4
LW 198kHz to get time information and possibly when to switch rates.

--
Cheers
Dave.




Yes, it is an odd one, as the meter is otherwise working completely
correctly, and it happened suddenly apparently, during Wednesday night.
You're right with the R4 transmissions. I definitely remember reading that
timecode transmissions were put on there to synchronise Economy 7 clocks,
and I think that you are right on the phase mod as well. I've no idea
whether these 'modern' meters also have sync by radio, but I would have
thought that it was a bit 'dangerous' for them not to have, for both the
customer and the supply company. I was half expecting that when I checked
this morning, it would have put itself right and that the error was just
some anomaly that had occured, but no. There it is large as life (well
pretty small LCD actually !) still exactly 4 hours slow, so still at this
time, recording night units, even though we are now well into what should be
the day period.

Now, where's all that washing and tumble drying that needs doing ... ?
:-)

Arfa

On Fri, 18 Sep 2009 08:25:12 +0100, Arfa Daily wrote:

Why the clcok is now 4hrs slow is an odd one. If there is any
identifying marks numbers etc on the meter try feeding them into to
google to see if more information about the meter can be found. It
may have a radio receiver in it, which uses phase modulation(?) on R4
LW 198kHz to get time information and possibly when to switch rates.

--
Cheers
Dave.




Yes, it is an odd one, as the meter is otherwise working completely
correctly, and it happened suddenly apparently, during Wednesday night.
You're right with the R4 transmissions. I definitely remember reading that
timecode transmissions were put on there to synchronise Economy 7 clocks,
and I think that you are right on the phase mod as well. I've no idea
whether these 'modern' meters also have sync by radio, but I would have
thought that it was a bit 'dangerous' for them not to have, for both the
customer and the supply company. I was half expecting that when I checked
this morning, it would have put itself right and that the error was just
some anomaly that had occured, but no. There it is large as life (well
pretty small LCD actually !) still exactly 4 hours slow, so still at this
time, recording night units, even though we are now well into what should be
the day period.

The chap who fitted mine a few weeks ago said that it wasn't controlled by
R4; I'll know at the end of next month.
--
Peter.
The head of a pin will hold more angels if
it's been flattened with an angel-grinder.

"PeterC" wrote in message
.. .
On Fri, 18 Sep 2009 08:25:12 +0100, Arfa Daily wrote:

Why the clcok is now 4hrs slow is an odd one. If there is any
identifying marks numbers etc on the meter try feeding them into to
google to see if more information about the meter can be found. It
may have a radio receiver in it, which uses phase modulation(?) on R4
LW 198kHz to get time information and possibly when to switch rates.

--
Cheers
Dave.




Yes, it is an odd one, as the meter is otherwise working completely
correctly, and it happened suddenly apparently, during Wednesday night.
You're right with the R4 transmissions. I definitely remember reading
that
timecode transmissions were put on there to synchronise Economy 7 clocks,
and I think that you are right on the phase mod as well. I've no idea
whether these 'modern' meters also have sync by radio, but I would have
thought that it was a bit 'dangerous' for them not to have, for both the
customer and the supply company. I was half expecting that when I checked
this morning, it would have put itself right and that the error was just
some anomaly that had occured, but no. There it is large as life (well
pretty small LCD actually !) still exactly 4 hours slow, so still at this
time, recording night units, even though we are now well into what should
be
the day period.

The chap who fitted mine a few weeks ago said that it wasn't controlled by
R4; I'll know at the end of next month.
--
Peter.
The head of a pin will hold more angels if
it's been flattened with an angel-grinder.

The guy that fitted mine lives opposite my daughter. I'll see if I can catch
up with him, and ask if he knows if the one he fitted to my house has R4
time correction.

Arfa

Incorrect E7 times...
- Supplier may be none too happy and try to accuse you. As always,
keep past bills for gas & elec going back several years.

Storage heater switching...
- If your heaters are on a fixed timeswitch and E7 time is wrong,
things get expensive fast.
- E7 Night rate is 5p, E7 Day rate is 12p, so a discrepancy of 4hrs
with 9kW of heating over 120 days is a £302 overcharge.

So a) you need to get the E7 time changed or b) change your timers.

The problem with changing your timers is by doing so you knowingly
taking advantage of incorrect E7 times which the supplier might use
against you. No idea if they have any legal basis to do so, but
suppliers suffering electricity losses re plant-farms & meter-bypass
will most likely try to claw back revenue anywhere they can.

Basically check when your heaters switch on/off & the E7 Night rate
switches on/off.

"js.b1" wrote in message
...
Incorrect E7 times...
- Supplier may be none too happy and try to accuse you. As always,
keep past bills for gas & elec going back several years.

Storage heater switching...
- If your heaters are on a fixed timeswitch and E7 time is wrong,
things get expensive fast.
- E7 Night rate is 5p, E7 Day rate is 12p, so a discrepancy of 4hrs
with 9kW of heating over 120 days is a £302 overcharge.

So a) you need to get the E7 time changed or b) change your timers.

The problem with changing your timers is by doing so you knowingly
taking advantage of incorrect E7 times which the supplier might use
against you. No idea if they have any legal basis to do so, but
suppliers suffering electricity losses re plant-farms & meter-bypass
will most likely try to claw back revenue anywhere they can.

Basically check when your heaters switch on/off & the E7 Night rate
switches on/off.



I am expecting to report to them that the meter has this problem before it
goes on too long, as I'm sure that I would be the unlucky one that they
decided to have a pop at for defrauding them ...

That said, I'm going to give it a few days to see if it does self-correct,
and do a bit more research on how this can have happened. I certainly
haven't done anything that would have affected it. I haven't even had any of
the transmitters on since the meter was fitted, so it's not even as though
it's had 100 watts of 2m SSB shoved up it. And even if it had, it would be a
pretty poor design if it couldn't cope without screwing up the CPU.

In the meantime, I will just change the clock on the single storage circuit,
to match that of the meter clock. I have only just put the storage heater
back on anyway, and it's down very low, so not drawing too much charge
energy yet, anyway.

Arfa

"Peter Andrews" wrote in message
...

"Arfa Daily" wrote in message
...
A few months back, my old mechanical meter was replaced with one of these
small white Landis & Gyr jobs that has an LCD display, and a small blue
button to cycle through the available displays of recorded units, totals,
time etc. I check it most days, and was surprised to find that this
morning, at 9am, it was still reading Economy 7 units - or whatever they
call them these days. A few minutes later, the reading had increased by
one, confirming that it was indeed still recording night units. I scrolled
through the readings, and was intrigued to find that the clock was 4 hours
slow, so the meter did indeed 'think' that it was still in the Economy 7
period.

So, does anyone know how the clock is set on these ? I was present,
chatting to the fitter the whole time he was doing the job, and I don't
recall him doing anything to the meter, other than removing it from the
box, screwing it to the board, and wiring it in.

I'm thinking that maybe time synchronisation signals are superimposed on
the grid, and that these meters can read them, or maybe that they have a
DSF type receiver in them for getting the time - in fact now that I think
about it, I have a dim recollection of reading that somewhere. But in
either case, I would have thought that the update was every few seconds,
or minutes at worst, so how did my clock get 4 hours behind in the first
place, and why has it not 'caught up' ? It was correct yesterday, so it's
something that's happened 'suddenly'.

At 11am, it changed over, confirming that this is all down to the clock
having the wrong time. I wonder who, in the event of this carrying on for
any length of time, is responsible for the fact that I would be getting
'cheap' (er!) electricity for 4 hours longer than I should be ... ? :-)

Arfa


Our flats communal lighting hallways, stairs and car park switches to
cheap rate at night - except that the time switch was hours slow so we
paid peak rate all night the other winter as nobody (including the now
sacked managing agents) was monitoring the charges. EDF put the clock
right but wouldn't discuss any refund. Fortunately not a fortune between
24 flats but it is worth checking the clock. I also had a work colleague
whose clock was 12 hours slow/fast, now that was worth not complaining
about!

Peter



This morning, I spoke to my NDN, who is himself a fully qualified
electrician, and for many years owned quite a large electrical installation
company. I explained to him what seemed to have happened, and he said that
it could be quite intentional. He thinks that the electricity supply company
may well have 'altered' the clock by whatever method they use for
communicating with the meter, in order to implement load even-ing during the
night. As he said, if a 'proper' storage heater circuit, which is switched
by the meter, is in place, then it makes no odds when exactly that circuit
is live, as long as it's roughly during the night, and the meter is clocking
units at the 'appropriate' rate, which I suppose makes some sense. I did
query why, if the meter was able to be communicated with, the company would
choose to alter the clock, rather than reprogramming the switchover times,
and the only thing he could come up with there, is that it might be 'easier'
for them to do it that way, as the data overhead would be a lot less
altering a single parameter, than multiple ones. Valid point I suppose, but
I'm not convinced.

In the meantime, I flashed an email off to the meter manufacturer's tech
support department to see if they can throw any light on whether this is
deliberate, or a fault. I don't know if they will see fit to bother replying
to a lowly end-user, but you never know. I'll keep you posted if anything
interesting comes out of it.

Arfa