I have a house that is 1 year old. In the lounge I have 2 bog
standard ceiling pendants. I have bought some new light fittings and
got an electrician to come and fit them (yes I am a hopeless girlie
when it comes to DIY!). When he unscrewed the pendants he had found
that the hole had been filled completely with expandable foam
together with all the wires. he said that it would be a whole days
job to do the lights as he would need to get all the foam off the
wired and would then need to test to make sure he hadn't damaged
them.

he told me that I should contact the builder and ask him to sort it
out as this was not up to NHBC standard, apparently some unscrupulous
builders get their electricians to do this to secure the fitting when
there is not a joist present to screw the fitting to. He said that
NHBC will make them lift the bedroom floor and put a joist in!

Can anyone tell me if this is correct? I am concern if having the
wiring coated and encapsulated in this stuff is a fire hazard.

Any advice would be gratefully received.

Angela

In uk.d-i-y, A K wrote:
I have a house that is 1 year old. In the lounge I have 2 bog
standard ceiling pendants. I have bought some new light fittings and
got an electrician to come and fit them (yes I am a hopeless girlie
when it comes to DIY!). When he unscrewed the pendants he had found
that the hole had been filled completely with expandable foam
together with all the wires. he said that it would be a whole days
job to do the lights as he would need to get all the foam off the
wired and would then need to test to make sure he hadn't damaged
them.

This isn't the "good workmanship" required by wot us old(er) farts
call The Wiring Regs and is now British Standard 7671:2001 with the
2002 Amendment (if you want to use that formal title to help bully
your builder/seller ;-). It makes it (as you just found) impractical
to fix faults or change the fitting. It's harder to argue it's an
actual fire hazard - the foam probably isn't flammable - but (ah!
here's an argument!) it certainly makes it (a) impossible to inspect
that the screws holding the wires are done up tight, and (b) to
tighten them if they're loose. And if they are loose, the places
where they make contact will get hot, and maybe spark.

The lazy gits wot did this had plenty of reasonable ways to secure
a normal ceiling rose: they could have put in a plasterboard back
box, used plasterboard/cavity fittings to secure the rose, or put
in a little wooden plate running between the two nearest joists
into which they could've screwed the ceiling rose. There's no
reasonable excuse for the magick-foam trick.

(Obligatory regulatory whinge: and *these* bodgers are considered
Competent Persons by the forthcoming "you toucha your wires, you
paya da guy with the Stetson, spurs and horse 75quid to say it's
no worse a bodge than he'd'a done" regulations... sigh.)

Getting the builder to do the decent thing may be a bit of a struggle.
If they try to fob you off at first, see if you can find more fittings
bodged this way: it's safe to unscrew the covers on ceiling roses if you
switch off all the power in the house, and almost as safe (just as safe
unless there are some *really* unsafe bodges!) if you just isolate the
relevant lighting circuit at your consumer unit ("fuse box"). On a 1yr
old property the circuits in the consumer unit should be clearly labelled,
and turning off a whole circuit should mean just pushing a small button
or lifting a little switch-looking-thing on the MCB ("miniature circuit
breaker" - modern replacement for a fuse) which controls the circuit.
Look for this foam-fix-bodge both in your own house, and (if you know
one or two of them) your neighbours'. The more widespread the bodge is,
the more ammunition you have with the builder/developer when you mention
how interested you think the local papers/DogWatch/NHBC/local authority
Building Control people might be.

Good luck - Stefek

"A K" wrote
| I have a house that is 1 year old. In the lounge I have 2 bog
| standard ceiling pendants. I have bought some new light fittings and
| got an electrician to come and fit them (yes I am a hopeless girlie
| when it comes to DIY!). When he unscrewed the pendants he had found
| that the hole had been filled completely with expandable foam
| together with all the wires. ...
| he told me that I should contact the builder and ask him to sort it
| out as this was not up to NHBC standard, apparently some unscrupulous
| builders get their electricians to do this to secure the fitting when
| there is not a joist present to screw the fitting to. He said that
| NHBC will make them lift the bedroom floor and put a joist in!

They should put a 'noggin' in between two existing joists to screw the
pendant into. It is absolutely shoddy workmanship though, and makes me
wonder what other little corners they've cut.

| Can anyone tell me if this is correct? I am concern if having the
| wiring coated and encapsulated in this stuff is a fire hazard.

It's probably not an immediate go-up-in-flames-tomorrow hazard[1], but it is
definately bad practice. Wiring should not be run through insulating foam
like that because it can derate the current-carrying capacity of the cable;
this is unlikely to be critical as lighting circuit cable is usually
generously-sized anyway. But if the foam has a chemical reaction with the
cable insulation that could be rather nasty longer term.

Owain


[1] But you will check your smoke detectors before going to bed tonight
won't you. All usual disclaimers apply.

A K wrote:
I have a house that is 1 year old. In the lounge I have 2 bog
standard ceiling pendants. I have bought some new light fittings and
got an electrician to come and fit them (yes I am a hopeless girlie
when it comes to DIY!). When he unscrewed the pendants he had found
that the hole had been filled completely with expandable foam
together with all the wires. he said that it would be a whole days
job to do the lights as he would need to get all the foam off the
wired and would then need to test to make sure he hadn't damaged
them.

he told me that I should contact the builder and ask him to sort it
out as this was not up to NHBC standard, apparently some unscrupulous
builders get their electricians to do this to secure the fitting when
there is not a joist present to screw the fitting to. He said that
NHBC will make them lift the bedroom floor and put a joist in!

Can anyone tell me if this is correct? I am concern if having the
wiring coated and encapsulated in this stuff is a fire hazard.

Any advice would be gratefully received.

Angela

Firstly I would advise you to avoid this 'electrician' like the plague as
he's obviously trying to make money out of you - the 'whole days job' tale
is just ridiculous. Is the fitting screwed in at all? A joist is not
necessary for fitting a ceiling rose - plasterboard fittings would be
acceptable. I don't really understand the reason for the foam, although it
does look like a bodge job. Although he sounds like a cowboy, I would take
his advice and contact the builder and then the NHBC if you have no joy.
Take care.

Terry D.

In article ,
Owain wrote:
But if the foam has a chemical reaction with the
cable insulation that could be rather nasty longer term.

I wondered about that, but it's the usual stuff for filling gaps round PVC
windows.

--
*If only you'd use your powers for good instead of evil.

Dave Plowman London SW 12
RIP Acorn

wrote in message

Getting the builder to do the decent thing may be a bit of a
struggle.
I have a catalogue of issues with them already and they are already
proving difficult to deal with. For example, I have 2 set of uPVC
patio doors both are very drafty. Last winter the temperature by the
doors was 25 degrees lower that the room temp. They claim that
drafts are to be expected and that as long it doen't let in water
they will not do anything about them! My front door is crooked and
is so lose that it rattles in the rain and the door seal has
disitegrated. They have acknowledged that they will need to
redecorate the whole house as it was so badly done. In 4 of the
rooms the radiators are too small (the lounge is only 50% of the size
it should be). the list goes on and on........................

The more widespread the bodge is,
the more ammunition you have with the builder/developer when you
mention
how interested you think the local papers/DogWatch/NHBC/local
authority
Building Control people might be.
The Local Authority don't want to know as you have to claim to them
within 6 months. I am doing things properly and writing to the
builder and copying NHBC in on it all. This has been going on for
over a year and I am at the end of my
tether.........................I will have no hesitation of taking
them to small claims court very soon, I doubt a judge will consider
doors that have drafts to be acceptable along with all the other
stuff. I would go to the newspapers but I don't want to blight my
house and be unable to sell it. Far be it from me to tell anyone not
to buy from this developer but note my problems and draw your own
conclusions - the developers name is Whiteoaks Developments Ltd

Angela

On 20 Oct 2003, Terry D wrote

A K wrote:
I have a house that is 1 year old. In the lounge I have 2 bog
standard ceiling pendants. I have bought some new light fittings
and got an electrician to come and fit them (yes I am a hopeless
girlie when it comes to DIY!). When he unscrewed the pendants he
had found that the hole had been filled completely with
expandable foam together with all the wires. he said that it
would be a whole days job to do the lights as he would need to
get all the foam off the wired and would then need to test to
make sure he hadn't damaged them.

he told me that I should contact the builder and ask him to sort
it out as this was not up to NHBC standard, apparently some
unscrupulous builders get their electricians to do this to secure
the fitting when there is not a joist present to screw the
fitting to. He said that NHBC will make them lift the bedroom
floor and put a joist in!

Can anyone tell me if this is correct? I am concern if having
the wiring coated and encapsulated in this stuff is a fire
hazard.

Any advice would be gratefully received.

Angela

Firstly I would advise you to avoid this 'electrician' like the
plague as he's obviously trying to make money out of you - the
'whole days job' tale is just ridiculous.

It does sound a bit generous -- from a diy perspective, I'd have
thought that 3 hours or so would do for lifting the upstairs
floorboards; cutting the existing cable out; inserting a wooden
plate; running a new cable from a junction box; installing the new
light fitting to plate; and replacing the floorboards. (Would one
really try and clean the foam off existing wires instead of running a
new circuit cable to the fitting?)

That said, the guy doesn't sound like a cowboy to me -- I'd have
thought if he was, he would've pushed harder for the day's work, and
not have advised getting the NHBC involved to get the builder to do it.

--
Cheers,
Harvey

For e-mail, change harvey to whhvs.

"Dave Plowman" wrote
| Owain wrote:
| But if the foam has a chemical reaction with the
| cable insulation that could be rather nasty longer term.
| I wondered about that, but it's the usual stuff for filling gaps round PVC
| windows.

PVC windows don't have 240V electricity running through them.

Well, maybe Angela's do and that'll be the subject of her next posting.

Owain

"Owain" wrote in message
...
"Dave Plowman" wrote
| Owain wrote:
| But if the foam has a chemical reaction with the
| cable insulation that could be rather nasty longer term.
| I wondered about that, but it's the usual stuff for filling gaps round
PVC
| windows.

PVC windows don't have 240V electricity running through them.

Well, maybe Angela's do and that'll be the subject of her next posting.

Owain



Heated windows. That's neat.....

cheers
Richard
--
Richard Sampson

email me at
richard at olifant d-ot co do-t uk

On Tue, 21 Oct 2003 13:21:23 +0100, "Owain"
wrote:

PVC windows don't have 240V electricity running through them.

UPVC doesn't have the plasticisers of PVC insulation either. I
wouldn't trust insulation in long-term contact with foam unless I had
some test results for how it held up. There are a lot of solvents
that _are_ known to have an adverse reaction on cable.

--
Die Gotterspammerung - Junkmail of the Gods

" Firstly I would advise you to avoid this 'electrician' like the
plague as he's obviously trying to make money out of you - the
'whole days job' tale is just ridiculous.

It does sound a bit generous -- from a diy perspective, I'd have
thought that 3 hours or so would do for lifting the upstairs
floorboards;

My number one hated job. Have you tried lifting a "floorboard" in a new
house?

--
Adam

On 21 Oct 2003, ARWadsworth wrote


" Firstly I would advise you to avoid this 'electrician' like
the
plague as he's obviously trying to make money out of you - the
'whole days job' tale is just ridiculous.

It does sound a bit generous -- from a diy perspective, I'd have
thought that 3 hours or so would do for lifting the upstairs
floorboards;

My number one hated job. Have you tried lifting a "floorboard" in
a new house?

Ah: no, I haven't. The newest house of the 5 I've owned was built in
the 1930s.

What makes it a tougher job in new houses?

(I though they used sheet material, which I've generally found simpler
to lift than traditional floorboards.)

--
Cheers,
Harvey

For e-mail, change harvey to whhvs.

"Harvey Van Sickle" wrote in message
...

What makes it a tougher job in new houses?

(I though they used sheet material, which I've generally found simpler
to lift than traditional floorboards.)

--
Cheers,
Harvey



Apart, that is, from having to move more furniture and carpet - and then
finding that the chipboard sheet is held down by skirting board on 3 sides!

Roger

"Roger Mills" wrote in message
...

"Harvey Van Sickle" wrote in message
...

What makes it a tougher job in new houses?

(I though they used sheet material, which I've generally found simpler
to lift than traditional floorboards.)

--
Cheers,
Harvey



Apart, that is, from having to move more furniture and carpet - and then
finding that the chipboard sheet is held down by skirting board on 3
sides!


What you need is the Trend Routabout. Absolutely ideal for making inspection
hatches in chipboard floors. You can find more info here
http://www.trendmachinery.co.uk/routabout/. The basic kit is about £40,
and while additional rings aren't that cheap (approx £2.50 each) you
shouldn't need that many.

Cheers
Clive

In article ,
Andy Dingley wrote:
PVC windows don't have 240V electricity running through them.

UPVC doesn't have the plasticisers of PVC insulation either. I
wouldn't trust insulation in long-term contact with foam unless I had
some test results for how it held up. There are a lot of solvents
that _are_ known to have an adverse reaction on cable.

I'm aware of this, but I'd have *thought* there would be warnings about
using foam on cable if it were a problem - after all it's easy enough to
imagine a scenario where it could happen.

--
*The more people I meet, the more I like my dog.

Dave Plowman London SW 12
RIP Acorn

In article ,
Owain wrote:
| But if the foam has a chemical reaction with the
| cable insulation that could be rather nasty longer term.

| I wondered about that, but it's the usual stuff for filling gaps round
| PVC windows.

PVC windows don't have 240V electricity running through them.

You've not seen my burglar alarm/elephant scarer, then?

--
*Why is a boxing ring square?

Dave Plowman London SW 12
RIP Acorn

On Tue, 21 Oct 2003 20:41:59 +0100, Dave Plowman
wrote:

You've not seen my burglar alarm/elephant scarer, then?

Which part of the country do you have a problem with elephants in
then?

PoP

In article ,
PoP wrote:
You've not seen my burglar alarm/elephant scarer, then?

Which part of the country do you have a problem with elephants in
then?

But I don't have a problem with elephants - the scarer is such a success.

--
*It's not hard to meet expenses... they're everywhere.

Dave Plowman London SW 12
RIP Acorn

"Dave Plowman" wrote in message
...
In article ,
PoP wrote:
You've not seen my burglar alarm/elephant scarer, then?

Which part of the country do you have a problem with elephants in
then?

But I don't have a problem with elephants - the scarer is such a success.



How's it work? A picture on the gate with "beware of the mouse" and a sign
saying "no buns kept on the premises overnight"???



--
Richard Sampson

email me at
richard at olifant d-ot co do-t uk

On Wed, 22 Oct 2003 11:35:10 +0100, "RichardS" noaccess@invalid
wrote:

How's it work? A picture on the gate with "beware of the mouse" and a sign
saying "no buns kept on the premises overnight"???

ROTFL!

Probably keeps the mini car out of sight too - you know what those
pesky elephants are like when they try to climb inside

PoP

In article , Andy
Dingley wrote:

UPVC doesn't have the plasticisers of PVC insulation either. I
wouldn't trust insulation in long-term contact with foam unless I had
some test results for how it held up. There are a lot of solvents
that _are_ known to have an adverse reaction on cable.



Hi


Polystyrene foam and PVC cable are a known problem. I gather the
polystyrene slowly turns the PVC to goo somehow, and the result is
eventual fire.

So, as has been said, it doesnt sound like a fire tomorrow type
situation, but I would say it really does need fixing, along with any
other places they've done this.

Also check the building for polystyrene balls insulation, thats
usually where these problems arise.


Regards, NT

In article ,
N. Thornton wrote:
Polystyrene foam and PVC cable are a known problem. I gather the
polystyrene slowly turns the PVC to goo somehow, and the result is
eventual fire.

I discovered some cable laid across poly sheet long after some building
work at home. The cable had sunk through the poly and was resting on the
plasterboard ceiling. But in other ways was still intact - although the
PVC *may* have been slightly brittle. But in no way a fire risk unless
moved.

--
*I don't suffer from insanity; I enjoy every minute of it.

Dave Plowman London SW 12
RIP Acorn

The boat safety scheme for the inland waterways (MOT for boats) does
not permit laying PVC cable in polystyrene insulation unless in
conduit to prevent contact. The reason is that the PVC goes brittle
and on a boat you do get vibration. Also circuits are predominatly 12V
with high current. A short circuit for a light (2Amp) is 2.5mm. A long
circuit for a fridge (5Amp) on a 60ft narrowboat needs to be 10mm
cable. And the invertor needs to be close to the battery.



On Mon, 20 Oct 2003 19:11:49 +0000 (UTC), "A K"
wrote:

I have a house that is 1 year old. In the lounge I have 2 bog
standard ceiling pendants. I have bought some new light fittings and
got an electrician to come and fit them (yes I am a hopeless girlie
when it comes to DIY!). When he unscrewed the pendants he had found
that the hole had been filled completely with expandable foam
together with all the wires. he said that it would be a whole days
job to do the lights as he would need to get all the foam off the
wired and would then need to test to make sure he hadn't damaged
them.

he told me that I should contact the builder and ask him to sort it
out as this was not up to NHBC standard, apparently some unscrupulous
builders get their electricians to do this to secure the fitting when
there is not a joist present to screw the fitting to. He said that
NHBC will make them lift the bedroom floor and put a joist in!

Can anyone tell me if this is correct? I am concern if having the
wiring coated and encapsulated in this stuff is a fire hazard.

Any advice would be gratefully received.

Angela






Lawrence

usenet at lklyne dt co dt uk

Dave Plowman wrote in message ...
In article ,
PoP wrote:

You've not seen my burglar alarm/elephant scarer, then?

Which part of the country do you have a problem with elephants in
then?

But I don't have a problem with elephants - the scarer is such a success.

lol.

"Dave Plowman" wrote
| PVC windows don't have 240V electricity running through them.
| You've not seen my burglar alarm/elephant scarer, then?

I think I'll come and break into your house, I could do with the
compensation :-)

Owain

"N. Thornton" wrote
| Also check the building for polystyrene balls insulation,

That's a handy thing for a Scotsman to have.

Owain