My son sleeps on a Muji double bed about 5 years old.

Recently my wife bought him a "feather bed" which sits on top of the
usual mattress and adds considerably to it's weight. This has caused
some of the wooden members of the construction to break, and I set out
to fashion a repair.

To my horror I found that these wooden parts which are about 200 cm
x 3 cm x 2cm have been fabricated out of short lengths of rubber wood
around 20 x 3 x 2 which have been joined together by being machined on
the ends into a male and female tapered comb, and then glued to form a
single piece of material which can be used as virgin timber.

To all intents and purposes all the glued joints have failed as the
structure progressively deflected, about 50 of them, and a repair is
more or less impossible.

Just something to watch out for when buying commercial furniture
nowadays.

It's good to be able to buy a bed or a table built at Vietnamese wage
rates but less good if it's prone to collapse without warning into a
pile of sixty or seventy bits of flotsam if overloaded by a few kilos.

8-((((

Derek

Derek Geldard wrote:
My son sleeps on a Muji double bed about 5 years old.

Recently my wife bought him a "feather bed" which sits on top of the
usual mattress and adds considerably to it's weight. This has caused
some of the wooden members of the construction to break, and I set out
to fashion a repair.

To my horror I found that these wooden parts which are about 200 cm
x 3 cm x 2cm have been fabricated out of short lengths of rubber wood
around 20 x 3 x 2 which have been joined together by being machined on
the ends into a male and female tapered comb, and then glued to form a
single piece of material which can be used as virgin timber.

To all intents and purposes all the glued joints have failed as the
structure progressively deflected, about 50 of them, and a repair is
more or less impossible.

Just something to watch out for when buying commercial furniture
nowadays.

Very common indeed these days, shelving especially. Must be a way of using
up short offcuts. Very common in the absolute ****e flatpack Argos sell.
IKEA use this technique a lot, but with their stuff it seems to hold up.


--
Dave - The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk

On Aug 18, 12:16*am, "The Medway Handyman"
wrote:
Derek Geldard wrote:
My son sleeps on a Muji double bed about 5 years old.

Recently my wife bought him a "feather bed" which sits on top of the
usual mattress and adds considerably to it's weight. This has caused
some of the wooden members of the construction to break, and I set out
to fashion a repair.

To my horror I found that these wooden parts which are about *200 cm
x 3 cm x 2cm have been fabricated out of short lengths of rubber wood
around 20 x 3 x 2 which have been joined together by being machined on
the ends into a male and female tapered comb, and then glued to form a
single piece of material which can be used as virgin timber.

To all intents and purposes all the glued joints have failed as the
structure progressively deflected, about 50 of them, and a repair is
more or less impossible.

Just something to watch out for when buying commercial furniture
nowadays.

Very common indeed these days, shelving especially. *Must be a way of using
up short offcuts. *Very common in the absolute ****e flatpack Argos sell.
IKEA use this technique a lot, but with their stuff it seems to hold up.

In fairness there's nothing inherently wrong with this method, but the
jointed timber can be undersized just as solid timber can be, leading
to failure either way. Such wood always needs to be larger, as the
finger joints are inevitably weaker.


NT

Nothing inherently wrong with timber composites - correctly made they
can be stronger than virgin timber. Certainly modern wooden glues,
correctly used, the weak point is the timber in between.

In message
, NT
writes
On Aug 18, 12:16*am, "The Medway Handyman"
wrote:

Just something to watch out for when buying commercial furniture
nowadays.

I noted that a bed purchased from John Lewis recently was manufactured
in Vietnam.

Very common indeed these days, shelving especially. *Must be a way of using
up short offcuts. *Very common in the absolute ****e flatpack Argos sell.
IKEA use this technique a lot, but with their stuff it seems to hold up.

In fairness there's nothing inherently wrong with this method, but the
jointed timber can be undersized just as solid timber can be, leading
to failure either way. Such wood always needs to be larger, as the
finger joints are inevitably weaker.

Softwood door frames supplied by builder are finger jointed. I suppose
it might reduce warping?

regards

--
Tim Lamb

On Mon, 17 Aug 2009 17:25:46 -0700 (PDT), NT
wrote:

To all intents and purposes all the glued joints have failed as the
structure progressively deflected, about 50 of them, and a repair is
more or less impossible.

Just something to watch out for when buying commercial furniture
nowadays.

Very common indeed these days, shelving especially. *Must be a way of using
up short offcuts. *Very common in the absolute ****e flatpack Argos sell.
IKEA use this technique a lot, but with their stuff it seems to hold up.

In fairness there's nothing inherently wrong with this method, but the
jointed timber can be undersized just as solid timber can be,

Manufactured timber got a bad reputation during WW2.

Clearly it's when something has not been done properly you get a
problem.

leading
to failure either way. Such wood always needs to be larger, as the
finger joints are inevitably weaker.

Such as when manufacturers are tempted into making one cost reduction
too far. Most folks here would be happy to settle for the saving
implicit in having their item of furniture built at Vietnamese wage
rates, without taking on the risk of ending up knee deep in odd bits
of wood when what you really wanted was a bed.

Derek

On 17 Aug, 23:45, Derek Geldard wrote:
My son sleeps on a Muji double bed about 5 years old.

Recently my wife bought him a "feather bed" which sits on top of the
usual mattress and adds considerably to it's weight. This has caused
some of the wooden members of the construction to break, and I set out
to fashion a repair.

To my horror I found that these wooden parts which are about *200 cm
x 3 cm x 2cm have been fabricated out of short lengths of rubber wood
around 20 x 3 x 2 which have been joined together by being machined on
the ends into a male and female tapered comb, and then glued to form a
single piece of material which can be used as virgin timber.

To all intents and purposes all the glued joints have failed as the
structure progressively deflected, about 50 of them, and a repair is
more or less impossible.

Just something to watch out for when buying commercial furniture
nowadays.

It's good to be able to buy a bed or a table built at Vietnamese wage
rates but less good if it's prone to collapse without warning into a
pile of sixty or seventy bits of flotsam if overloaded by a few kilos.

8-((((

Derek

One thing I hadn't realised until recently with rubber wood is that it
is near enough the ultimate in recycling as the rubber trees have a
finite life cycle producing latex and previously were presumably burnt
when their productivity fell off. So the material for our beds etc is
effectively a by-product.

It does sound in this case that there was a weakness in the original
bed design or in the manufacture of the composite panels as in general
this construction technique is pretty reliable.

Rob

In article ,
Derek Geldard wrote:
To my horror I found that these wooden parts which are about 200 cm
x 3 cm x 2cm have been fabricated out of short lengths of rubber wood
around 20 x 3 x 2 which have been joined together by being machined on
the ends into a male and female tapered comb, and then glued to form a
single piece of material which can be used as virgin timber.

With decent glue that makes a joint as strong as continuous timber.

--
*Verbs HAS to agree with their subjects *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Rob G writes:
One thing I hadn't realised until recently with rubber wood is that it
is near enough the ultimate in recycling as the rubber trees have a
finite life cycle producing latex and previously were presumably burnt
when their productivity fell off. So the material for our beds etc is
effectively a by-product.

I think it's a wonderful timber.
Similar colour to fresh cut pine (which I've
always liked) but doesn't go yellow, and is a
hardwood to boot. I just wish I could walk
into Wickes or similar and buy lengths of it.

I spent some time keeping an eye out for a
rubberwood coffee table (which I eventually
found), but when asking in furniture shops,
you get a really dirty look, as though you were
asking for a chipboard coffee table. OK, I know
a lot of rubberwood is wrecked by very poor
quality machining in the 3rd world, but when it's
done properly, I think it makes very good looking
furniture.

--
Andrew Gabriel

On Tue, 18 Aug 2009 08:30:59 +0100, Tim Lamb wrote:

Softwood door frames supplied by builder are finger jointed. I suppose
it might reduce warping?

No, it's just cheap. Probably a continious process from logs at one
end to made up frames/frame kits at the other. Logs are cut down,
jointed into a continuios length of timber and cut into the bits for
the frames. Instantly no waste due to log being 6" too short to cut
the required bits from.

--
Cheers
Dave.

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Derek Geldard wrote:
To my horror I found that these wooden parts which are about 200 cm
x 3 cm x 2cm have been fabricated out of short lengths of rubber wood
around 20 x 3 x 2 which have been joined together by being machined on
the ends into a male and female tapered comb, and then glued to form a
single piece of material which can be used as virgin timber.

With decent glue that makes a joint as strong as continuous timber.

Not quite.

In bending the composite puts the glue line under tension. Plus any
variations in modulus of the two pieces of wood leads to a stress
concentration at the glue join.

Glue is not good in tension: Largely its fine in compression and
especially good in shear, but fails under tension. The correct way to
reinforce any joint like this is with something that IS good in tension
overlapping the joint. A nice strip of carbon fibre soaked in epoxy, for
example.

On Tue, 18 Aug 2009 08:30:59 +0100, Tim Lamb wrote:

In message
, NT
writes
On Aug 18, 12:16Â*am, "The Medway Handyman"
wrote:

Just something to watch out for when buying commercial furniture
nowadays.

I noted that a bed purchased from John Lewis recently was manufactured
in Vietnam.

When we were looking for a dining table and coffee table last year it was
extremely hard to find anything that had either been a) made locally or
b) made with any kind of underlying quality.

I suspect that to all intents and purposes well-built furniture is a thing
of the past; it doesn't matter (for the majority of mere mortals) how much
money is thrown at the problem - it's still stuff that looks nice but
doesn't last.

We spent a small fortune on tables, they're still made in Vietnam, and
they're full of joints that I can see will need attention in only a few
years (and in fact I've already had to tighten the legs on the coffee
table once in less than a year).

I suspect the best approach is to buy something old and refinish it -
that or just learn how to make your own (which gives me an excuse to buy
more tools ;-)

Softwood door frames supplied by builder are finger jointed. I suppose
it might reduce warping?

Possibly - agree with Dave L that it's cheap, but I've also seen it on
(exterior) door and larger (patio etc.) window frames that are a few
decades* old, so it's definitely not a new practice. I suppose it does
provide a little more give in the frame whilst still doing the intended
job.

* all in the US, where houses are mainly timber-framed rather than brick,
and prone to settling a little over the years; that might be something to
do with it...

cheers

Jules

Jules wrote:
On Tue, 18 Aug 2009 08:30:59 +0100, Tim Lamb wrote:

In message
, NT
writes
On Aug 18, 12:16 am, "The Medway Handyman"
wrote:
Just something to watch out for when buying commercial furniture
nowadays.
I noted that a bed purchased from John Lewis recently was manufactured
in Vietnam.

When we were looking for a dining table and coffee table last year it was
extremely hard to find anything that had either been a) made locally or
b) made with any kind of underlying quality.

I suspect that to all intents and purposes well-built furniture is a thing
of the past; it doesn't matter (for the majority of mere mortals) how much
money is thrown at the problem - it's still stuff that looks nice but
doesn't last.

You just have to know where to look. Bags of incredible quality oak
stuff made in west of england and wales..and in fact all over

Hines of oxford is woryth a visit..always.

We spent a small fortune on tables, they're still made in Vietnam, and
they're full of joints that I can see will need attention in only a few
years (and in fact I've already had to tighten the legs on the coffee
table once in less than a year).


Spend a larger fortune and get something excellent. A good dining table
in oak or mahogany (or whatever the sustainable alternative is these
days) is over a grand. Mebbe £2k-£3k


There are loads of US crafsmen as well American white oak is a fine
wood, and its plentiful.

e.g. http://www.americanoakcreations.com/

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Derek Geldard wrote:
To my horror I found that these wooden parts which are about 200 cm
x 3 cm x 2cm have been fabricated out of short lengths of rubber wood
around 20 x 3 x 2 which have been joined together by being machined on
the ends into a male and female tapered comb, and then glued to form a
single piece of material which can be used as virgin timber.

With decent glue that makes a joint as strong as continuous timber.


Providing the wood is sufficiently dry. IIRC 5% moisture content is the
spec for laminated pine boards. Above that the RF glue doesn't work.

In article ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
You just have to know where to look. Bags of incredible quality oak
stuff made in west of england and wales..and in fact all over

Watched an old Grand Designs yesterday and a forester type said a 150 year
old oak only sells for 100 quid. Must be lots of profit in processing and
retailing it...

--
*I wonder how much deeper the ocean would be without sponges*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Stuart Noble wrote:
With decent glue that makes a joint as strong as continuous timber.


Providing the wood is sufficiently dry. IIRC 5% moisture content is the
spec for laminated pine boards. Above that the RF glue doesn't work.

I bought some fiendishly expensive strip wood from B&Q not long ago to
finish a job. Needed 4 lengths. One of them had just this joint in it -
but I could arrange so it was in the scrap so didn't bother. Tried
snapping the offcut and it snapped elsewhere.

--
*If you can read this, thank a teecher

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Tue, 18 Aug 2009 14:02:22 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
I suspect that to all intents and purposes well-built furniture is a thing
of the past; it doesn't matter (for the majority of mere mortals) how much
money is thrown at the problem - it's still stuff that looks nice but
doesn't last.

You just have to know where to look. Bags of incredible quality oak
stuff made in west of england and wales..and in fact all over

Yeah, maybe that's it, and a round trip of a day or more is needed to go
to the right places because they just believe in folk coming to them
rather than the other way around.

Spend a larger fortune and get something excellent. A good dining table
in oak or mahogany (or whatever the sustainable alternative is these
days) is over a grand. Mebbe £2k-£3k

:-) It was something like that (although in $ rather than £, but I find
there tends to be a 1:1 mapping between the numbers for higher value
stuff). I'll have to have a look and see what the wood is - I've no
problem with the finish, it's just that the underlying construction seems
a bit on the weedy side and I suspect problems will arise after only a
few years (rather than the several decades or more that I'd like
furniture to last without repair)

(I'm starting to regret not getting a coffee table with a protective glass
surface though, but so far finding someone who can cut the right kind of
glass to fit and round off the edges is proviving difficult)

There are loads of US crafsmen as well American white oak is a fine
wood, and its plentiful.

Hmm, I'll have to dig out the receipts and see what this stuff is - I
really don't remember now. Nice dark cherry-red finish to it, whatever it
is, but it's presumably stained something-or-other.

cheers

Jules

On 18 Aug, 15:21, Jules
wrote:
On Tue, 18 Aug 2009 14:02:22 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
I suspect that to all intents and purposes well-built furniture is a thing
of the past; it doesn't matter (for the majority of mere mortals) how much
money is thrown at the problem - it's still stuff that looks nice but
doesn't last.

You just have to know where to look. Bags of incredible quality oak
stuff made in west of england and wales..and in fact all over

Yeah, maybe that's it, and a round trip of a day or more is needed to go
to the right places because they just believe in folk coming to them
rather than the other way around.

Spend a larger fortune and get something excellent. A good dining table
in oak or mahogany (or whatever the sustainable alternative is these
days) *is over a grand. Mebbe £2k-£3k

:-) *It was something like that (although in $ rather than £, but I find
there tends to be a 1:1 mapping between the numbers for higher value
stuff). I'll have to have a look and see what the wood is - I've no
problem with the finish, it's just that the underlying construction seems
a bit on the weedy side and I suspect problems will arise after only a
few years (rather than the several decades or more that I'd like
furniture to last without repair)

(I'm starting to regret not getting a coffee table with a protective glass
surface though, but so far finding someone who can cut the right kind of
glass to fit and round off the edges is proviving difficult)

Go to a place that does mirrors. They are often supplied with ground
and polished edges and
can be very large. I'm sure they could make a "mirror" without the
reflective backing.
Not sure if you need toughened glass though - maybe that's the issue.

Simon.

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
You just have to know where to look. Bags of incredible quality oak
stuff made in west of england and wales..and in fact all over

Watched an old Grand Designs yesterday and a forester type said a 150 year
old oak only sells for 100 quid. Must be lots of profit in processing and
retailing it...

There is. Which is why it makes little sense to buy cheap wood to make
things with. The cost is all in the value added labour content.
I think a 'victorian pine door' is only 30-50 quid less than the same
thing in oak, both being around 200 quid sort of range.

On Tue, 18 Aug 2009 07:29:14 -0700, Simon wrote:
(I'm starting to regret not getting a coffee table with a protective glass
surface though, but so far finding someone who can cut the right kind of
glass to fit and round off the edges is proviving difficult)

Go to a place that does mirrors. They are often supplied with ground
and polished edges and
can be very large. I'm sure they could make a "mirror" without the
reflective backing.
Not sure if you need toughened glass though - maybe that's the issue.

Yeah, as we have kids I figured toughened/laminated glass was probably a
good idea - and somewhat-annoyingly I've even got a nice big sheet culled
from a patio door (I know it's laminated because I had two and broke one
of them ;-) but it needs specialist equipment* to cut it to the size I
need, let alone smoothing the edges off.

* Well, unless there's a blade for a circular saw or angle grinder that'll
do it - but due to the laminate of course the old score-and-crack routine
doesn't work. But even if I could cut it, I can't smooth edges myself.

I like the mirror company idea though - maybe I'll prod a few as it's
possible they're also general glass specialsts, or could put me in touch
with someone who could help.

cheers

Jules

On Tue, 18 Aug 2009 15:57:16 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
You just have to know where to look. Bags of incredible quality oak
stuff made in west of england and wales..and in fact all over

Watched an old Grand Designs yesterday and a forester type said a 150 year
old oak only sells for 100 quid. Must be lots of profit in processing and
retailing it...

There is. Which is why it makes little sense to buy cheap wood to make
things with. The cost is all in the value added labour content.
I think a 'victorian pine door' is only 30-50 quid less than the same
thing in oak, both being around 200 quid sort of range.

I suppose that might explain all the looks-nice-but-not-very-strong
furniture around too, then - they can't skimp on the labour or
man-hours because the thing still needs to look good in order to sell, so
they start cutting corners in the raw amount of material used. It doesn't
save them much, but they figure it's better than nothing.

(I suppose it's not that big a deal to me, because I can always strengthen
things as/when needed without altering cosmetic appearance - it's just a
little annoying that I know I'm going to need to do that in a few years,
when something of supposed 'good quality' built a few hundred years ago
would have gone much longer without any attention)

cheers

Jules

On Aug 18, 4:53*pm, Jules
wrote:
On Tue, 18 Aug 2009 07:29:14 -0700, Simon wrote:
(I'm starting to regret not getting a coffee table with a protective glass
surface though, but so far finding someone who can cut the right kind of
glass to fit and round off the edges is proviving difficult)

Go to a place that does mirrors. They are often supplied with ground
and polished edges and
can be very large. I'm sure they could make a "mirror" without the
reflective backing.
Not sure if you need toughened glass though - maybe that's the issue.

Yeah, as we have kids I figured toughened/laminated glass was probably a
good idea - and somewhat-annoyingly I've even got a nice big sheet culled
from a patio door (I know it's laminated because I had two and broke one
of them ;-) but it needs specialist equipment* to cut it to the size I
need, let alone smoothing the edges off.

* Well, unless there's a blade for a circular saw or angle grinder that'll
do it - but due to the laminate of course the old score-and-crack routine
doesn't work.

It does, you just have to score it twice.

But even if I could cut it, I can't smooth edges myself.

I've not done it, but am told a regular hand grinding stone is fairly
quick.


NT

Jules wrote:
On Tue, 18 Aug 2009 07:29:14 -0700, Simon wrote:
(I'm starting to regret not getting a coffee table with a protective glass
surface though, but so far finding someone who can cut the right kind of
glass to fit and round off the edges is proviving difficult)
Go to a place that does mirrors. They are often supplied with ground
and polished edges and
can be very large. I'm sure they could make a "mirror" without the
reflective backing.
Not sure if you need toughened glass though - maybe that's the issue.

Yeah, as we have kids I figured toughened/laminated glass was probably a
good idea - and somewhat-annoyingly I've even got a nice big sheet culled
from a patio door (I know it's laminated because I had two and broke one
of them ;-) but it needs specialist equipment* to cut it to the size I
need, let alone smoothing the edges off.

* Well, unless there's a blade for a circular saw or angle grinder that'll
do it - but due to the laminate of course the old score-and-crack routine
doesn't work. But even if I could cut it, I can't smooth edges myself.

I like the mirror company idea though - maybe I'll prod a few as it's
possible they're also general glass specialsts, or could put me in touch
with someone who could help.

cheers

Jules

I simply went to a glazier and asked for some 1/4" bevelled toughened glass.

And got it.

On Tue, 18 Aug 2009 11:13:19 -0700, NT wrote:
* Well, unless there's a blade for a circular saw or angle grinder that'll
do it - but due to the laminate of course the old score-and-crack routine
doesn't work.

It does, you just have to score it twice.

But even if I could cut it, I can't smooth edges myself.

I've not done it, but am told a regular hand grinding stone is fairly
quick.

Hmm, maybe I'll give it a go, then... I've still got the broken bit that I
can play with (I actually bust it trying to cut it, because I hadn't
realised at that point that it was a laminate; it splintered badly all the
way along the score line)

ta

J.

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:


Watched an old Grand Designs yesterday and a forester type said a 150 year
old oak only sells for 100 quid. Must be lots of profit in processing and
retailing it...


its only 100 quid (now nearer*200) if you collect it,
as you say, thats when most of the labour and processing costs start to
add-up.
\0

Jules wrote:
On Tue, 18 Aug 2009 11:13:19 -0700, NT wrote:
* Well, unless there's a blade for a circular saw or angle grinder that'll
do it - but due to the laminate of course the old score-and-crack routine
doesn't work.
It does, you just have to score it twice.

But even if I could cut it, I can't smooth edges myself.
I've not done it, but am told a regular hand grinding stone is fairly
quick.

Hmm, maybe I'll give it a go, then... I've still got the broken bit that I
can play with (I actually bust it trying to cut it, because I hadn't
realised at that point that it was a laminate; it splintered badly all the
way along the score line)

ta

J.

NO!!

Never ever attempt to cut or polish hardened glass, and never use
anything else for furniture use.

You finish the glass first, *then* toughen it by heat treating it.

Any glazier will do this, or get it done.

Never ever attempt to cut or polish hardened glass, and never use
anything else for furniture use.

Well, I don't actually know if it's hardened or not - only that it's
laminated. Maybe there's some sort of identification mark on it somewhere
- I'll have a look later...

You finish the glass first, *then* toughen it by heat treating it.

Any glazier will do this, or get it done.

That's useful to know...

cheers

J.