I am toying with a log burning stove which can do hot water and CH.

I would be interested to hear from anyone burning logs as to whether
they find it economical or not and any other input.

Cheers.

"R D S" wrote in message
...
I am toying with a log burning stove which can do hot water and CH.

I would be interested to hear from anyone burning logs as to whether they
find it economical or not and any other input.

Cheers.

The biggest expense seems to be getting stainless steel liners and
insulation installed in the chimneys-
burners burn hotter than the coal fires my chimneys were designed for,
and some wood gives off tar which coats the chimney -

Wen I lived in a bus with a rayburn and a short metal chimney
every so often i'd scrape it clean with a metal bar
though sometimes the tar in the chimney caught fire
and a few feet of flame came out of the top of the chimney-
entertaining in a metal bus
but here it could set fire to my house (and the neighbours...)

[g]

On 7 Nov, 22:54, R D S wrote:
I am toying with a log burning stove which can do hot water and CH.

I would be interested to hear from anyone burning logs as to whether
they find it economical or not and any other input.

Cheers.

I don't think George's reply is quite what the OP was after - I
imagine it's the long term running costs he's looking for. But on the
capital side, the OP also needs to be aware that unless he goes the
chip wood route, a wood burner almost certainly needs to run in
parallel with a standard CH system which correspondingly means
modifications to the plumbing and boiler controls - Dunsley
Neutraliser and a differential thermostat on the log burner to turn
off the CH boiler when the fire is hot.

I can't give a monetary answer to the running costs because although
I've had a wood burner for many years I've always managed to get the
upwards of 2 tons of wood required each year for nought.

The cost is in the effort to achieve this - logging the wood (chain
saws - 22" and 15"), transporting it, hydraulic log splitter and under
cover storage near the house. Then add in the regular chimney
sweeping - maybe that's not so necessary with a steel liner (?).

The other problem is that in order to get the 15kw plus of heat for
the CH system a fairly large stove is required and it will emit a huge
amount of radiant heat into the room it's in. There maybe well be
stoves on the market now that are more efficient in heating water than
the room but that's the major parameter that I would be looking at if
I was having to replace mine now.

Rob

R D S wrote:
I am toying with a log burning stove which can do hot water and CH.

I would be interested to hear from anyone burning logs as to whether
they find it economical or not and any other input.

Cheers.

Its hard to say. The price of fuels is up and down like the proverbial..

Solid fuel is also a bit of a hassle.

What we are finding is that due to only having three heating
zones,lighting the woodburner in just the room of choice is cheaper than
running the full CH for the odd chilly autumn night.

However I would try NOT to rely on a soild fuel CH source. Been there,
done that, come back after a day away to an icy house..

But as additional inputs, yes, why not?

robgraham wrote:
On 7 Nov, 22:54, R D S wrote:
I am toying with a log burning stove which can do hot water and CH.

I would be interested to hear from anyone burning logs as to whether
they find it economical or not and any other input.

Cheers.

I don't think George's reply is quite what the OP was after - I
imagine it's the long term running costs he's looking for. But on the
capital side, the OP also needs to be aware that unless he goes the
chip wood route, a wood burner almost certainly needs to run in
parallel with a standard CH system which correspondingly means
modifications to the plumbing and boiler controls - Dunsley
Neutraliser and a differential thermostat on the log burner to turn
off the CH boiler when the fire is hot.

I can't give a monetary answer to the running costs because although
I've had a wood burner for many years I've always managed to get the
upwards of 2 tons of wood required each year for nought.

The cost is in the effort to achieve this - logging the wood (chain
saws - 22" and 15"), transporting it, hydraulic log splitter and under
cover storage near the house. Then add in the regular chimney
sweeping - maybe that's not so necessary with a steel liner (?).

The other problem is that in order to get the 15kw plus of heat for
the CH system a fairly large stove is required and it will emit a huge
amount of radiant heat into the room it's in. There maybe well be
stoves on the market now that are more efficient in heating water than
the room but that's the major parameter that I would be looking at if
I was having to replace mine now.

Rob
Yes, yes and yes.

The way to run solid fuel is to have a series of wood or coal burning
stoves or ranges arranged strategically throughout the house. One ****
off giant one is actually a pain for the reasons you cite.

Bro in law has Aga in kitchen (oil admittedly) that heats that and the
stairway and landing which is off the kitchen,and wood stove in living
room, which heats that and to an extent the bedrooms above.

CH boiler exists, but does hot water only until the depths of winter.
His fuel costs are,considering. reasonably low.

He gets cubic meters of wood at reasonable prices off an estate nearby.

Neither of us has hot water as an overriding cost. Space heating is the
killer.

As others have said - look at the costs of a suitable chimney/flue
first.

Effectiveness depends on the design of your house - open plan-ish is
good to get the radiant heat from the stove about.

You will need significant storage space for logs, and at least the
fitness level to stack them when delivered, and bring indoors what you
need every day - even if you don't seek out your own.

At risk of stating the obvious - green wood needs to be seasoned for
at least a year.

Yes - I find them very economical - the task of loading and starting
the stove means I don't use it more than necessary, plus I have enough
scrap joinery offcuts each year to cover about half my needs.

For covering CH and HW as well - which mine doesn't - have a look at
the solid fuel Rayburns (http://www.rayburn-web.co.uk/57_198.htm). I'm
very impressed with how well a friends old Rayburn Royale stays in for
many hours - and can burn most solid fuels I believe.

There would also likely be a significant replumbing cost for the
necessary gravity circuit and cylinder for a solid fuel stove with
backboiler.

If you go for a non-backboiler stove - I've been completely happy with
my Jotul F600 (http://www.jotul.com/en-us/wwwjotulus/).

On Fri, 07 Nov 2008 22:54:19 +0000, R D S wrote:

I am toying with a log burning stove which can do hot water and CH.

I would be interested to hear from anyone burning logs as to whether
they find it economical or not and any other input.

Cheers.

next door but one only have a log burner for hot water and heating.
The previous guy who put it in used to have his lounge windows open
all winter as the lounge was sooo hot in order to heat the rest of the
place.
The new people think it's better than the coal fire they used to have.
Even two tips of logs a year is cheaper than a months gas in winter I
think. It's just the effort of cleaning the fire and keeping it going.
--
http://www.freedeliveryuk.co.uk
http://www.holidayunder100.co.uk

In message
,
robgraham writes
On 7 Nov, 22:54, R D S wrote:
I am toying with a log burning stove which can do hot water and CH.

I would be interested to hear from anyone burning logs as to whether
they find it economical or not and any other input.

Cheers.

I don't think George's reply is quite what the OP was after - I
imagine it's the long term running costs he's looking for. But on the
capital side, the OP also needs to be aware that unless he goes the
chip wood route, a wood burner almost certainly needs to run in
parallel with a standard CH system which correspondingly means
modifications to the plumbing and boiler controls - Dunsley
Neutraliser and a differential thermostat on the log burner to turn
off the CH boiler when the fire is hot.

I can't give a monetary answer to the running costs because although
I've had a wood burner for many years I've always managed to get the
upwards of 2 tons of wood required each year for nought.

The cost is in the effort to achieve this - logging the wood (chain
saws - 22" and 15"), transporting it, hydraulic log splitter and under
cover storage near the house. Then add in the regular chimney
sweeping - maybe that's not so necessary with a steel liner (?).

Cost of providing and storing logs seems pretty fundamental. The lead
time on Dunsley log burners with boilers designed to provide most of the
HW and CH requirements is now 16 weeks. So I assume others are jumping
on this particular bandwagon. This must eventually impact on the
availability and price of delivered fuel. Counting the dead and dying
Oaks on this farm, I think I could probably offset 50% of my gas
consumption but if I had to employ someone to do the cutting and
hauling, I doubt the capital outlay could be recovered.

The other problem is that in order to get the 15kw plus of heat for
the CH system a fairly large stove is required and it will emit a huge
amount of radiant heat into the room it's in. There maybe well be
stoves on the market now that are more efficient in heating water than
the room but that's the major parameter that I would be looking at if
I was having to replace mine now.

I have been studying the literature/websites and the *wrap around*
boiler types do not give an enormous output to the room.

There also appear to be other *convenience* issues. The max. rated
output is often quoted at 3/4 hour stoking intervals. Not a problem if
you are just pottering about the house but means reliance on the
existing CH unless you like early morning fire lighting.

Running with the *doors open* may require an 8" flue and anything over
4.9kW requires extra draught provision. So there are other building
costs to consider.

Lots of informative websites out there.

regards


--
Tim Lamb

mogga wrote:
On Fri, 07 Nov 2008 22:54:19 +0000, R D S wrote:

I am toying with a log burning stove which can do hot water and CH.

I would be interested to hear from anyone burning logs as to whether
they find it economical or not and any other input.

Cheers.

next door but one only have a log burner for hot water and heating.
The previous guy who put it in used to have his lounge windows open
all winter as the lounge was sooo hot in order to heat the rest of the
place.
The new people think it's better than the coal fire they used to have.
Even two tips of logs a year is cheaper than a months gas in winter I
think. It's just the effort of cleaning the fire and keeping it going.

So the concensus is that it's worth looking at.
We stayed in a cottage which had a wood burner last weekend which got me
thinking about it. I was surprised by how much wood we seemed to get
through but I have no idea how much it costs.

Thanks for everyone's input.

On Sat, 8 Nov 2008 02:12:42 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:


For covering CH and HW as well - which mine doesn't - have a look at
the solid fuel Rayburns (http://www.rayburn-web.co.uk/57_198.htm). I'm
very impressed with how well a friends old Rayburn Royale stays in for
many hours - and can burn most solid fuels I believe.

Rayburns are OK if you want to burn coal or manufactured coal type
fuel, but they're useless for wood. The fire box is much too small,
you'ld be feeding it every ten miutes.

In article ,
R D S wrote:
I am toying with a log burning stove which can do hot water and CH.

I would be interested to hear from anyone burning logs as to whether
they find it economical or not and any other input.

We have one which is room heat only - up to 8.5KW output by the book.
Cost us about £1200 to have it all installed including the stove. (A
Stovax one) Just about to get a 2nd one installed - again room heat
only in my office (I work from home), but in the future we're looking
at replacing our conventional gas back-boiler with a 3rd stove with a
back boiler fitted.

You need a modern stove with an efficient air circulation / pre-heat
system to get the most out of the wood and not chuck most of it up the
chimney. (In a pub last night with a log-fire and I was convinced all
it was doing was sucking cold air into the room rather than heating it!!!)

However, we have an easy supply of wood, relatively cheap, our own
chainsaw and a gert big axe to split them with... (And for now, the
physical abiltiy to cope with it!)

So your source of wood is something to consider - and note that the
Forrestry Commi$$ion have just deicded that for Elfin Safety reasons
(ie. we get more moeny out of the commercial people) they can't let
mere mortals collect firewood anymore (at least in Wales - we just got
a 6-month permit where we are this year, who knows about next)

The one thing that concerns me is coming home to a cold house in the
middle of winter, so to that end what I want is a big thermal store
and if I need to, then I can dump this into the radiators until the
fire gets going - well that's a plan anyway. (Store being replenished
by anything to hand - solar[1], cooker (which has a small back boiler)
and the wood stove.

Gordon

[1] and I don't give a hoot about the cost-return on solar water - as long
as it reduces my bills to the money grabbing utility rip-off merchants,
I'll be happy!

wrote:
As others have said - look at the costs of a suitable chimney/flue
first.

Effectiveness depends on the design of your house - open plan-ish is
good to get the radiant heat from the stove about.

You will need significant storage space for logs, and at least the
fitness level to stack them when delivered, and bring indoors what you
need every day - even if you don't seek out your own.

At risk of stating the obvious - green wood needs to be seasoned for
at least a year.


Nah. You can chuck it straight on. It seasons in about 20 mins. If whats
there is hot enough.

R D S wrote:
mogga wrote:
On Fri, 07 Nov 2008 22:54:19 +0000, R D S wrote:

I am toying with a log burning stove which can do hot water and CH.

I would be interested to hear from anyone burning logs as to whether
they find it economical or not and any other input.

Cheers.

next door but one only have a log burner for hot water and heating.
The previous guy who put it in used to have his lounge windows open
all winter as the lounge was sooo hot in order to heat the rest of the
place.
The new people think it's better than the coal fire they used to have.
Even two tips of logs a year is cheaper than a months gas in winter I
think. It's just the effort of cleaning the fire and keeping it going.

So the concensus is that it's worth looking at.
We stayed in a cottage which had a wood burner last weekend which got me
thinking about it. I was surprised by how much wood we seemed to get
through but I have no idea how much it costs.


I think its about 75 quid a cubic meter, which is probably around 1/3 ton.

A quick google sez that a cubic meter is about 700Kwh, so at equivalent
to electric thats maybe about 10p per unit..assuming 100% efficiency. Or
oil at 100p a liter.

On ebay theres a cubic meter of oak logs at 45 quid.

This looks fun

http://www.mpwoodsmith.co.uk/firewood.html



I think te savins genrally come because you only heat what rooms you
want heated.


Don't underestimate how much junkmail and household rubbish you can burn
as well...

Also, if you do carpentry, scrap timber.

Thanks for everyone's input.

On Sun, 09 Nov 2008 01:28:51 +0000, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:



On ebay theres a cubic meter of oak logs at 45 quid.

This looks fun

http://www.mpwoodsmith.co.uk/firewood.html



I think te savins genrally come because you only heat what rooms you
want heated.


Don't underestimate how much junkmail and household rubbish you can burn
as well...

Also, if you do carpentry, scrap timber.

Thanks for everyone's input.


I like his woodstore! Bit pricey though.

--
http://www.freedeliveryuk.co.uk
http://www.holidayunder100.co.uk

On Sat, 08 Nov 2008 11:02:19 +0000, R D S wrote:

mogga wrote:
On Fri, 07 Nov 2008 22:54:19 +0000, R D S wrote:

I am toying with a log burning stove which can do hot water and CH.

I would be interested to hear from anyone burning logs as to whether
they find it economical or not and any other input.

Cheers.

next door but one only have a log burner for hot water and heating.
The previous guy who put it in used to have his lounge windows open
all winter as the lounge was sooo hot in order to heat the rest of the
place.
The new people think it's better than the coal fire they used to have.
Even two tips of logs a year is cheaper than a months gas in winter I
think. It's just the effort of cleaning the fire and keeping it going.

So the concensus is that it's worth looking at.
We stayed in a cottage which had a wood burner last weekend which got me
thinking about it. I was surprised by how much wood we seemed to get
through but I have no idea how much it costs.

Thanks for everyone's input.

A neighbour is a joiner and gave us a vanload of builders wood. It
burns really quickly compared to proper logs but hey it's free.

If you solared the hot water too you'd probably be sorted.
--
http://www.freedeliveryuk.co.uk
http://www.holidayunder100.co.uk

On Sat, 8 Nov 2008 15:04:23 +0000 (UTC), Gordon Henderson
wrote:


[1] and I don't give a hoot about the cost-return on solar water - as long
as it reduces my bills to the money grabbing utility rip-off merchants,
I'll be happy!

This is a very good point!
--
http://www.freedeliveryuk.co.uk
http://www.holidayunder100.co.uk

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember The Natural Philosopher
saying something like:

At risk of stating the obvious - green wood needs to be seasoned for
at least a year.


Nah. You can chuck it straight on. It seasons in about 20 mins. If whats
there is hot enough.

Heh. Chimney creosote fires are a hoot, don't you know?

Grimly Curmudgeon wrote:
We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember The Natural Philosopher
saying something like:

At risk of stating the obvious - green wood needs to be seasoned for
at least a year.

Nah. You can chuck it straight on. It seasons in about 20 mins. If whats
there is hot enough.

Heh. Chimney creosote fires are a hoot, don't you know?
Yup..

;-)

That;s no so much an issue with stoves though.. insulated liners reduce
condensation. You just shower the neighborhood with dioxins instead. ;-)

Of course if everybody starts burning wood - or coal - again, it will be
back to 50's smog levels. And a new Clean Air Act.

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember The Natural Philosopher
saying something like:

Heh. Chimney creosote fires are a hoot, don't you know?
Yup..

;-)

That;s no so much an issue with stoves though.. insulated liners reduce
condensation. You just shower the neighborhood with dioxins instead. ;-)

Everything has a drawback. I'm reminded of the double-oven Rayburn I
converted back from oil to run on solid fuel and fed with timber off the
hill at the back of the farm - that, and coal waste from the old coal
mine up the back. Cracking stove that was, and produced some wonderful
bread from those ovens.
One day there was a continuous roaring noise that rose in pitch until it
was like a jet engine whining away - the creosote and resins in the
chimney (unlined) had caught fire and continued to burn for a while
after I shut the dampers off. Luckily the chimney was in good nick and
the building didn't go up, but I was more careful about chucking
unseasoned wood on it after that.

Of course if everybody starts burning wood - or coal - again, it will be
back to 50's smog levels. And a new Clean Air Act.

Grimly Curmudgeon wrote:
We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember The Natural Philosopher
saying something like:

Heh. Chimney creosote fires are a hoot, don't you know?
Yup..

;-)

That;s no so much an issue with stoves though.. insulated liners reduce
condensation. You just shower the neighborhood with dioxins instead. ;-)

Everything has a drawback. I'm reminded of the double-oven Rayburn I
converted back from oil to run on solid fuel and fed with timber off the
hill at the back of the farm - that, and coal waste from the old coal
mine up the back. Cracking stove that was, and produced some wonderful
bread from those ovens.
One day there was a continuous roaring noise that rose in pitch until it
was like a jet engine whining away - the creosote and resins in the
chimney (unlined) had caught fire and continued to burn for a while
after I shut the dampers off. Luckily the chimney was in good nick and
the building didn't go up, but I was more careful about chucking
unseasoned wood on it after that.


I managed to start a chimney fire three times in in-laws house one winter.

I'm very good at stopping them.

Water on fire, followed by sheet of wood held over fireplace.

Repeat till the roaring stops...




Of course ifa everybody starts burning wood - or coal - again, it will be
back to 50's smog levels. And a new Clean Air Act.

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember The Natural Philosopher
saying something like:

I managed to start a chimney fire three times in in-laws house one winter.

I'm very good at stopping them.

Water on fire, followed by sheet of wood held over fireplace.

Repeat till the roaring stops...

The last chimney fire I had I did just that, after seeing the 'Chimsafe'
device on telly, which just belts a squirt of water into the bottom of
the throat. I realised then a similar approach could be taken to putting
out chimney fires in a cruder fashion, ie, a bowl of water.
Mind you, a fibreglass crash helmet takes some putting out...