I cant follow this, maybe someone with a qualification can do the maths and
tell me if its right?

I put on one of the storage heaters last night ( not the new one, it hasnt
been fitted yet).

I have checked the meter daily so I know my electric usage each night is
between 15 and 17 units WITHOUT the storage heater(s) on.

I am charged at 5 p a unit ( kw?)

I put one 3.25 kw capacity storage heater on last night. The electric
meter read 82 units used overnight.

Now if I take away the 17 I would normally use during the night for my
essentials and drabs , that means the heater used 65 units over night.
That means the heater cost me nearly a fiver to have it on for one night.

Is my maths correct?

Is that right, should a 3.5 kw heater running for 7 hours on economy be
using that much electric?

Does that sound right to you? Just need to know. I am clueless and confused
totally.

On Thu, 11 Sep 2008 17:09:40 +0100 someone who may be "endymion"
wrote this:-

Is that right, should a 3.5 kw heater running for 7 hours on economy be
using that much electric?

A 3.5kW heater, if it charged up for the full 7 hours, would gobble
up 3.5 * 7 = 24.5kWh. In reality it will probably not charge up for
all 7 hours, but that depends on conditions.

Your meter will have at least two dials or electronic displays (on
the same panel, press the botton(s) to scroll through the display.
There is something fishy about what loads you are actually turning
on, or in reading the meter.



--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

endymion wrote:
I cant follow this, maybe someone with a qualification can do the maths
and tell me if its right?

I put on one of the storage heaters last night ( not the new one, it
hasnt been fitted yet).

I have checked the meter daily so I know my electric usage each night is
between 15 and 17 units WITHOUT the storage heater(s) on.

I am charged at 5 p a unit ( kw?)

I put one 3.25 kw capacity storage heater on last night. The electric
meter read 82 units used overnight.

Now if I take away the 17 I would normally use during the night for my
essentials and drabs , that means the heater used 65 units over night.
That means the heater cost me nearly a fiver to have it on for one night.

Is my maths correct?

Is that right, should a 3.5 kw heater running for 7 hours on economy be
using that much electric?

Does that sound right to you? Just need to know. I am clueless and
confused totally.

Correct, 1 Unit = 1 kWh

So, 3.5 kw x 7h = 24.5 kWh /units

Assuming the storage heater was on constantly (i.e. not cycling on a
thermostat, which I'm guessing is an invalid assumption).

Mike Dodd wrote:
endymion wrote:
I cant follow this, maybe someone with a qualification can do the
maths and tell me if its right?

I put on one of the storage heaters last night ( not the new one, it
hasnt been fitted yet).

I have checked the meter daily so I know my electric usage each night
is between 15 and 17 units WITHOUT the storage heater(s) on.

I am charged at 5 p a unit ( kw?)

I put one 3.25 kw capacity storage heater on last night. The
electric meter read 82 units used overnight.

Now if I take away the 17 I would normally use during the night for my
essentials and drabs , that means the heater used 65 units over
night. That means the heater cost me nearly a fiver to have it on
for one night.

Is my maths correct?

Is that right, should a 3.5 kw heater running for 7 hours on economy
be using that much electric?

Does that sound right to you? Just need to know. I am clueless and
confused totally.

Correct, 1 Unit = 1 kWh

So, 3.5 kw x 7h = 24.5 kWh /units

Assuming the storage heater was on constantly (i.e. not cycling on a
thermostat, which I'm guessing is an invalid assumption).

Is it me going mad?

24.5 is not equal to 65

Seems to me, if the meter was read and recorded correctly, there are
40.5 kWh to be accounted for.

--
Rod

Hypothyroidism is a seriously debilitating condition with an insidious
onset.
Although common it frequently goes undiagnosed.
www.thyromind.info www.thyroiduk.org www.altsupportthyroid.org

"David Hansen" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 11 Sep 2008 17:09:40 +0100 someone who may be "endymion"
wrote this:-

Is that right, should a 3.5 kw heater running for 7 hours on economy be
using that much electric?

A 3.5kW heater, if it charged up for the full 7 hours, would gobble
up 3.5 * 7 = 24.5kWh. In reality it will probably not charge up for
all 7 hours, but that depends on conditions.

Yes, thats what I thought. But it looks like the heater is using three
times that. Its a new meter and I have been reading it daily so I know its
not dodgy otherwise - and I have figured how to read it.

The hike in figures has only gone on over last night. I didnt have it on
full input either. I had it on number 4 so it should only have taken 2/3
charge.

Your meter will have at least two dials or electronic displays (on
the same panel, press the botton(s) to scroll through the display.
There is something fishy about what loads you are actually turning
on, or in reading the meter.

I know exactly what I am switching on ( assuming its not connected to
heating thin air or something! I am also clear about the meter. Its a brand
new digital one and is accurate and steady ( except for the hike last
night. ) I am sure I only switched on one heater. Honest. I had to put it
on. I have chest problems and I was struggling without the heat.

I had thought I had found the source of the problems in another heater but
it looks like they have all been using the same - 65 units per heater per
night. No wonder I had that high bill!

But that begs the question - how?



--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

"Mike Dodd" wrote in message
...
endymion wrote:
I cant follow this, maybe someone with a qualification can do the maths
and tell me if its right?

I put on one of the storage heaters last night ( not the new one, it
hasnt been fitted yet).

I have checked the meter daily so I know my electric usage each night is
between 15 and 17 units WITHOUT the storage heater(s) on.

I am charged at 5 p a unit ( kw?)

I put one 3.25 kw capacity storage heater on last night. The electric
meter read 82 units used overnight.

Now if I take away the 17 I would normally use during the night for my
essentials and drabs , that means the heater used 65 units over night.
That means the heater cost me nearly a fiver to have it on for one
night.

Is my maths correct?

Is that right, should a 3.5 kw heater running for 7 hours on economy be
using that much electric?

Does that sound right to you? Just need to know. I am clueless and
confused totally.

Correct, 1 Unit = 1 kWh

So, 3.5 kw x 7h = 24.5 kWh /units

Assuming the storage heater was on constantly (i.e. not cycling on a
thermostat, which I'm guessing is an invalid assumption).

Well..... it should have been cycling on a thermostat and should only have
charged up 2/3 but it seems to have used 3times what it should have doesnt
it?
Thats why I am asking. I thought I might have not understood it right.

"Rod" wrote in message
...
Mike Dodd wrote:
endymion wrote:

Assuming the storage heater was on constantly (i.e. not cycling on a
thermostat, which I'm guessing is an invalid assumption).

Is it me going mad?

24.5 is not equal to 65

Seems to me, if the meter was read and recorded correctly, there are 40.5
kWh to be accounted for.

Thank you, thats what I thought too - but I also thought I must be mad. The
readings are the readings.

So, now, how the hell do I find out what is going on? Where is that 40.5 kw
going to?

Its got to be to do with the heater hasnt it? That is logical ( I need
reassurance or correction here. I am confused) . There wasnt a problem when
all the heating was off.

How can a heater draw that much electric and not blow out the fuses - by
the way, its not even that hot ( and before anyone asks - no of the other
heaters are on or even warm, so its not all wired in one or something).

Its got to be in the heating though ( or is that not a correct assumption?)
I had thought it was another heater that was faulty. Now it seems I have at
least two faulty heaters. But I just cannot see how it can do this.

I set the heater input control at 4. I set the output at 3. The heater has
warmed across the top and the bottom is cold. So its not heated up the
storage capacity.

Anyone offer anyexplanation? Anyone experienced this?

endymion wrote:

"Rod" wrote in message
...
Mike Dodd wrote:
endymion wrote:

Assuming the storage heater was on constantly (i.e. not cycling on a
thermostat, which I'm guessing is an invalid assumption).

Is it me going mad?

24.5 is not equal to 65

Seems to me, if the meter was read and recorded correctly, there are
40.5 kWh to be accounted for.

Thank you, thats what I thought too - but I also thought I must be mad.
The readings are the readings.

So, now, how the hell do I find out what is going on? Where is that 40.5
kw going to?

Its got to be to do with the heater hasnt it? That is logical ( I need
reassurance or correction here. I am confused) . There wasnt a problem
when all the heating was off.

How can a heater draw that much electric and not blow out the fuses -
by the way, its not even that hot ( and before anyone asks - no of the
other heaters are on or even warm, so its not all wired in one or
something).

Its got to be in the heating though ( or is that not a correct
assumption?) I had thought it was another heater that was faulty. Now it
seems I have at least two faulty heaters. But I just cannot see how it
can do this.

I set the heater input control at 4. I set the output at 3. The heater
has warmed across the top and the bottom is cold. So its not heated
up the storage capacity.

Anyone offer anyexplanation? Anyone experienced this?


Unless you are inadvertently reporting untruths, there seem to be two
reasonable possibilities. First, your meter is crap. Second, something,
somewhere *is* taking that electricity. Is it possible that immersion
heater, neighbour's heating, the local street lighting or something else
is connected?

If the heater is taking that much in, it must be getting very hot - so
no, I don't think it is the heater itself. (Again, assuming the rating
is correctly reported.)

--
Rod

Hypothyroidism is a seriously debilitating condition with an insidious
onset.
Although common it frequently goes undiagnosed.
www.thyromind.info www.thyroiduk.org www.altsupportthyroid.org

On Thu, 11 Sep 2008 18:05:57 +0100, "endymion"
wrote:


"David Hansen" wrote in message
.. .
On Thu, 11 Sep 2008 17:09:40 +0100 someone who may be "endymion"
wrote this:-

Is that right, should a 3.5 kw heater running for 7 hours on economy be
using that much electric?

A 3.5kW heater, if it charged up for the full 7 hours, would gobble
up 3.5 * 7 = 24.5kWh. In reality it will probably not charge up for
all 7 hours, but that depends on conditions.

Yes, thats what I thought. But it looks like the heater is using three
times that. Its a new meter and I have been reading it daily so I know its
not dodgy otherwise - and I have figured how to read it.

The hike in figures has only gone on over last night. I didnt have it on
full input either. I had it on number 4 so it should only have taken 2/3
charge.

If it was new and unused, and presumably been in storage somewhere for
along time could it have spent last night driving the damp out of the
bricks ?

It still looks like a lot of Kwh. :-(

derek

"Rod" wrote in message
...
endymion wrote:

"Rod" wrote in message
...
Mike Dodd wrote:



Unless you are inadvertently reporting untruths, there seem to be two
reasonable possibilities. First, your meter is crap.

But it was possible it was happening on the last meter too ( no way of
knowing because the meter never got read properly even my the meter reader).
I am supposing by deduction its not the meter since it seems accurate enough
for all other appliances . After all it wasnt hiking up high readings for my
night rate before I put the heater on.


Second, something,
somewhere *is* taking that electricity. Is it possible that immersion
heater, neighbour's heating, the local street lighting or something else
is connected?

(LOL - if I didnt I would cry) . The immersion heater has always been on.
It was part of the 17 overnight figure I quoted as the base rate for my
supply. I live in a detached house ( bungalow) and I cannot believe my
neighbours heating would rush me that much when they have coal for their
heating anyway. I dont think thats posible ;-)
There is no street lighting.

If the heater is taking that much in, it must be getting very hot - so no,
I don't think it is the heater itself. (Again, assuming the rating is
correctly reported.)

But its not getting hot. I am not under reporting I promise you. There is
something up with the storage heating obviously but I cant see what and its
driving me mad. I asked for help as some will recall a bout a month / six
weeks ago when I got a meter reading and a 240 quid a month bill ( with just
one heater on - not this one another heater.) I switched everything off and
I had to put the heater on last night because I cannot cope with the cold/
damp any longer. I am asthmatic ( result of lung problems after having
pneumonia)

But I cant afford this bill either. If its going to take 65 units a night,
I cannot keep affording it. And what about the rest of the house? I have
three of these heaters, one 2kw heater and tow 1.7kw heaters ( so called)
are they all consuming the same? I dare not even put them on to find out
quite honestly!

"Derek" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 11 Sep 2008 18:05:57 +0100, "endymion"
wrote:


"David Hansen" wrote in message
. ..
On Thu, 11 Sep 2008 17:09:40 +0100 someone who may be "endymion"
wrote this:-

Is that right, should a 3.5 kw heater running for 7 hours on economy be
using that much electric?

A 3.5kW heater, if it charged up for the full 7 hours, would gobble
up 3.5 * 7 = 24.5kWh. In reality it will probably not charge up for
all 7 hours, but that depends on conditions.

Yes, thats what I thought. But it looks like the heater is using three
times that. Its a new meter and I have been reading it daily so I know
its
not dodgy otherwise - and I have figured how to read it.

The hike in figures has only gone on over last night. I didnt have it on
full input either. I had it on number 4 so it should only have taken 2/3
charge.

If it was new and unused, and presumably been in storage somewhere for
along time could it have spent last night driving the damp out of the
bricks ?

It still looks like a lot of Kwh. :-(

It wasnt a new heater. I havent had the new one fitted yet. This was one of
the existing heaters. A creda 3.4 kw model number 79065B . I have it on
every winter. but this is the first year I have had problems but as I said,
it could have been going on sometime because the meter was not being read
( the meter reader didnt do the job but I didnt know because he came. It was
only when they took the old meter out they adjusted for the under estimate.)

I have religiously checked the new meter. It hasnt been doing anything odd
until last night when I put the storage heater on.

derek

On 11 Sep, 19:03, "endymion" wrote:
"Derek" wrote in message

...





On Thu, 11 Sep 2008 18:05:57 +0100, "endymion"
wrote:

"David Hansen" wrote in message
. ..
On Thu, 11 Sep 2008 17:09:40 +0100 someone who may be "endymion"
wrote this:-

Is that right, should a 3.5 kw heater running for 7 hours on economy *be
using that much electric?

A 3.5kW heater, if it charged up for the full 7 hours, would gobble
up 3.5 * 7 = 24.5kWh. In reality it will probably not charge up for
all 7 hours, but that depends on conditions.

Yes, thats what I thought. *But *it looks like the heater is using three
times that. Its a new meter *and *I have been reading it daily so I know
its
not dodgy otherwise - and I have figured how to read it.

The hike in figures has only gone on over last night. I didnt have *it on
full input either. I had it on number 4 so it should only have taken 2/3
charge.

If it was new and unused, and presumably been in storage somewhere for
along time could it have spent last night driving the damp out of the
bricks ?

It still looks like a lot of Kwh. *:-(

It wasnt a new heater. I havent had the new one fitted yet. This was one of
the existing heaters. *A creda 3.4 kw *model number 79065B . *I have it on
every winter. but this is the first year I have had problems *but as I said,
it could have been going on sometime because the meter was not being read
( the meter reader didnt do the job but I didnt know because he came. It was
only when they took the old meter out they adjusted for the under estimate.)

I have religiously checked the new meter. *It hasnt been doing anything odd
until last night when I put the storage heater on.





derek- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

There MUST be something else using power on the off peak heating
circuit. If you are unable to identify something which is doing this
then I strongly suggest you engage the services of someone with the
knowledge, equipment and ability to track it down. Are you certain
that nothing else inside the dwelling is getting hotter? Do you have
any circuits feeding outside buildings? When the "normal" consumption
was taking place where were the off peak heaters switched off - at
each individual unit adjacent switch or at the off-peak consumer unit
main switch?

"cynic" wrote in message
...
On 11 Sep, 19:03, "endymion" wrote:
"Derek" wrote in message

...





On Thu, 11 Sep 2008 18:05:57 +0100, "endymion"
wrote:

"David Hansen" wrote in message
. ..
On Thu, 11 Sep 2008 17:09:40 +0100 someone who may be "endymion"
wrote this:-



There MUST be something else using power on the off peak heating
circuit. If you are unable to identify something which is doing this
then I strongly suggest you engage the services of someone with the
knowledge, equipment and ability to track it down. Are you certain
that nothing else inside the dwelling is getting hotter?

I am absolutely certain nothing else is getting hot or seems to be switched
on. I have a fridge, freezer and one low energy light bulb ( 60
equivelent in normal lights) running all night. The dishwasher is
programmed to come on at 4,00 am and wash up for an hour and the immersion
heater is time switched for two hours each night. All of these (and a
washing machine twice a week) have used no more than 17 units overnight
every night for the last six weeks.

The day usage ( when I am out anyway) stands steady at about 5 units (
unless I cook a lot in which case it goes up to 10 units) .

When I put the heater on last night it went up to 82 units used in off peak
time. Nothing different on.

"Do you have
any circuits feeding outside buildings? When the "normal" consumption
was taking place where were the off peak heaters switched off - at
each individual unit adjacent switch or at the off-peak consumer unit
main switch?"

Whatever it is is not heating anything because the house is bloody cold!
Thats why I was forced to put heating on. There are no outbuilding with
anything on. Even if there were, it would be no more than a 60 watt bulb
since my only outbuilding is a toilet ( outside) and the only electric
supply in there is a 60 watt bulb.

All the heaters are switched off individually at their own socket ( whatever
its called - the box which connects them to the electric supply situated at
the side of each heater. When I put the neater on last night I switched that
one heater on. All the others were off ( and one is missing all together
because I had it taken out when it seemed faulty and haven't put a new one
in). None of the other heaters are getting anything other than stone
cold.

There is nothing apparent on. There is nothing else to be on. Thats what
I cannot understand. I cant even see an electrician picking this one up (
not to mention the cost and worse finding one!!! Despite everything when you
want an electrician all they want to do is small simple jobs , not hunt down
my problems. Even asking one to come and look at a storage heater which
wasn't working was too much! A result of Maggie and her privatization of
utilities. No electric board , no electricians who will do the work! -
sorry about the rant)

I don't know where to look for something that could use that amount of
electric . I only live in a two bedroom bungalow. Hardly a mansion and no
fancy appliances or anything.

"endymion" wrote in message
...

"cynic" wrote in message
...
On 11 Sep, 19:03, "endymion" wrote:
"Derek" wrote in message

...





On Thu, 11 Sep 2008 18:05:57 +0100, "endymion"
wrote:

"David Hansen" wrote in message
. ..
On Thu, 11 Sep 2008 17:09:40 +0100 someone who may be "endymion"
wrote this:-



There MUST be something else using power on the off peak heating
circuit. If you are unable to identify something which is doing this
then I strongly suggest you engage the services of someone with the
knowledge, equipment and ability to track it down. Are you certain
that nothing else inside the dwelling is getting hotter?

I can only think its got to be the heater itself drawing that much
electricity. Obviously it has no resistance in there and the electric is
running through it somehow. Not as I know anything about it. But thats all
it can be. Doesnt seem possible but it must be.

endymion wrote:

"endymion" wrote in message
...

"cynic" wrote in message
...


There MUST be something else using power on the off peak heating
circuit. If you are unable to identify something which is doing this
then I strongly suggest you engage the services of someone with the
knowledge, equipment and ability to track it down. Are you certain
that nothing else inside the dwelling is getting hotter?

I can only think its got to be the heater itself drawing that much
electricity. Obviously it has no resistance in there and the electric is
running through it somehow. Not as I know anything about it. But thats
all it can be. Doesnt seem possible but it must be.

I agree with cynic. I really do think you need to get someone in.

--
Rod

Hypothyroidism is a seriously debilitating condition with an insidious
onset.
Although common it frequently goes undiagnosed.
www.thyromind.info www.thyroiduk.org www.altsupportthyroid.org

On Thu, 11 Sep 2008 20:04:34 +0100, "endymion"
wrote:


There MUST be something else using power on the off peak heating
circuit. If you are unable to identify something which is doing this
then I strongly suggest you engage the services of someone with the
knowledge, equipment and ability to track it down. Are you certain
that nothing else inside the dwelling is getting hotter?

I can only think its got to be the heater itself drawing that much
electricity. Obviously it has no resistance in there and the electric is
running through it somehow. Not as I know anything about it. But thats all
it can be. Doesnt seem possible but it must be.

The meter measures Kwh.

If it's going into the heater those Kwh have to represent energy
dissipated in the heater one way or another.

As heat stored or released would be typical.

Try it again overnight.

Derek

On Thu, 2008-09-11 at 19:57 +0100, endymion wrote:


I don't know where to look for something that could use that amount of
electric . I only live in a two bedroom bungalow. Hardly a mansion and no
fancy appliances or anything.


It sounds to me like your meter might be faulty. What I would do is:

First, turn everything off - turn the main switch off if that's easiest.
Check the meter. If it's mechanical, the wheel in the middle should be
stationary, if it's digital the red LED should not flash at all. If this
isn't the case your meter is feeding something else (or is seriously
broken).

Next, find something with a constant load - an electric heater (not a
storage heater) is probably good, but make sure it doesn't have a
thermostat. Note the meter reading, then turn on just that one device.
On a mechanical meter you will have a "tenths" dial, which makes things
easier - a digital meter might not. Run the load for a fixed time - say
an hour, or half an hour, then switch it off. Work out how much power
you should have used - the power in kW times the time in hours - and
check that the meter has gone up by that much and no more. If the meter
has gone up by more than it should, and you're sure you didn't put
anything else on, the meter is over-reading. Call the electricity
company and get them to check - and if they find it is wrong, don't
forget to ask for a refund back to when they installed it.

Mike

I have checked the meter daily so I know my electric usage each night is
between 15 and 17 units WITHOUT the storage heater(s) on.
I am charged at 5 p a unit ( kw?)
I put one 3.25 kw capacity storage heater on last night. The electric
meter read 82 units used overnight.

This might be a daft question, then again... I don't think this
applies to you unfortuately :-/

Are you on a pre-payment meter ? - if so, it might be that the rate it
clocks up costs is higher than your true usage (it's a programmable
rate).

AFAIK the dial / display will read the true number of units, but the
maths behind it are skewed for prepayment meters, so you may have (for
the sake of ease of numbers) used 100 units at 5p/unit, but you can be
charged a variable rate over and above the true usage, i.e. you might
be getting charged at a collection rate of 7p/unit - this is often
done for people who have a debt on their account.

endymion wrote:

snip

I am absolutely certain nothing else is getting hot or seems to be
switched on. I have a fridge, freezer and one low energy light bulb
( 60 equivelent in normal lights) running all night. The dishwasher is
programmed to come on at 4,00 am and wash up for an hour and the
immersion heater is time switched for two hours each night. All of
these (and a washing machine twice a week) have used no more than 17
units overnight every night for the last six weeks.

The day usage ( when I am out anyway) stands steady at about 5 units (
unless I cook a lot in which case it goes up to 10 units) .

When I put the heater on last night it went up to 82 units used in off
peak time. Nothing different on.


The 17 units figure seems suspiciously high. Without storage heating or
an immersion heater, we average less than 4 units per night - and this
includes two freezers, a fridge, and dishwasher and washing machine
(both elderly) each run, say, 4 times/week.

Add in your 2 hours of immersion heater, 6 kWh if the thermostat doesn't
kick in, and it would still only come to less than 10 units.

Our daytime use pattern is sufficiently different to yours that
comparison is much harder, but we average 9.5 units/day in summer, which
includes the freezers, PC all day, power tools, electric oven, etc.

As others have suggested - time to check the meter with a known simple
load and _everything_ else turned off - even the fridge and freezer for
an hour.

--
Kevin Poole
****Use current date to reply (e.g. )****

On 11 Sep, 19:57, "endymion" wrote:
"cynic" wrote in message

...
On 11 Sep, 19:03, "endymion" wrote:





"Derek" wrote in message

.. .

On Thu, 11 Sep 2008 18:05:57 +0100, "endymion"
wrote:

"David Hansen" wrote in message
. ..
On Thu, 11 Sep 2008 17:09:40 +0100 someone who may be "endymion"
wrote this:-

There MUST be something else using power on the off peak heating
circuit. If you are unable to identify something which is doing this
then I strongly suggest you engage the services of someone with the
knowledge, equipment and ability to track it down. Are you certain
that nothing else inside the dwelling is getting hotter?

I am absolutely certain nothing else is getting hot or seems to be switched
on. *I have a fridge, freezer *and * one low energy light bulb ( 60
equivelent in normal lights) *running all night. *The dishwasher is
programmed to come on at 4,00 am and wash up for an hour and the immersion
heater is time switched *for two hours each night. All of these (and a
washing machine twice a week) * *have used no more than 17 units overnight
every night for the last six weeks.

The day usage ( when I am out anyway) stands steady at about 5 units (
unless I cook a lot in which case it goes up to 10 units) .

When I put the heater on last night it went up to 82 units used in off peak
time. Nothing different on.

"Do you have
any circuits feeding outside buildings? When the "normal" consumption
was taking place where were the off peak heaters switched off - at
each individual unit adjacent switch or at the off-peak consumer unit
main switch?"

Whatever it is is not heating anything because the house is bloody cold!
Thats why I was forced to put heating on. *There are no outbuilding with
anything on. Even if there were, it would be no more than a 60 watt bulb
since my only outbuilding is a toilet ( outside) and the only electric
supply in there is a 60 watt bulb.

All the heaters are switched off individually at their own socket ( whatever
its called - the box which connects them to the electric supply situated at
the side of each heater. When I put the neater on last night I switched that
one heater on. *All the others were off ( and one is missing all together
because I had it taken out when it seemed faulty and haven't put a new one
in). *None of the other heaters are *getting anything other than stone
cold.

There is nothing apparent on. *There is nothing *else to be on. *Thats what
I cannot understand. *I cant even see an electrician picking this one up (
not to mention the cost and worse finding one!!! Despite everything when you
want an electrician all they want to do is small simple jobs , not hunt down
my problems. *Even asking one to come and look at a storage heater which
wasn't working was too much! *A result of *Maggie and her privatization of
utilities. No electric board , no electricians who *will do the work! -
sorry about the rant)

I don't know where to look for something that could use that amount of
electric . I only live in a two bedroom bungalow. Hardly a mansion and *no
fancy appliances or anything.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Where are you that electricians are so hard to come by?

Can you get your hands on a clip-on amp-meter from ebay if nothing
else. This would enable you to check the current drawn by the heater.
It will require access to one of the individual Line or Neutral wires
inside the cable or local isolating switch (beware of the little men
running up your arm). A 3.4kW heater should be drawing around 14.2
Amps but if the supply voltage is nearer 230v than 240v which would be
the basis for an older model it will be lower around 13.6
If the heater is the culprit a higher current would be passing. The
type of fuse or circuit breaker at the supply will influence how much
current can actually pass without operating (blowing) the fuse or
tripping the circuit breaker. An old rewirable fuse rated at 15Amps
will pass close on 30Amps for hours without operating so you cannot
rely on the fuse recognising a defect. I'm still suspicious of a
branch off the circuit which you do not know about. Checking the
current passing out of the fusebox to the heater and comparing it with
the current arriving at the heater would prove this one way or
another. You could also monitor the current in the meter tails as you
switch loads on or off although for off peak this will involve going
to bed late or getting up earlyg

"endymion" wrote in message
...



There is nothing apparent on. There is nothing else to be on. Thats
what I cannot understand. I cant even see an electrician picking this one
up ( not to mention the cost and worse finding one!!! Despite everything
when you want an electrician all they want to do is small simple jobs ,
not hunt down my problems. Even asking one to come and look at a storage
heater which wasn't working was too much! A result of Maggie and her
privatization of utilities. No electric board , no electricians who will
do the work! - sorry about the rant)

Bon't blame Maggie for this one. Your house is your house. Local electric
companies never worked for free in a house. The electric co (private or
public) have only ever supplied houses with an electric supply. What you do
with that supply is up to you.

I don't know where to look for something that could use that amount of
electric . I only live in a two bedroom bungalow. Hardly a mansion and no
fancy appliances or anything.

Turn everything off (I mean everything), and then turn on one known load, ie
your heater. The meter will show how many units per hour the heater is using
if this is the only appliance turned on. It should take you one hour at an
inconvinient time of the day and you will need a torch.

Adam

"ARWadworth" wrote in message
om...

"endymion" wrote in message
...





Bon't blame Maggie for this one. Your house is your house. Local electric
companies never worked for free in a house. The electric co (private or
public) have only ever supplied houses with an electric supply. What you
do with that supply is up to you.

I do blame Maggie. Not for my house being my house but because even though
its my house I could get an electrician if I paid for it from SWEB before
privateization ( and I did twice). Now I cant find one willing to come out
at all.

I suppose it depends where you live to an extent but I know there are
electricians but they simply dont want the kind of work we are talking
here. They want simple ( and big as I suppose) jobs - like re wire ( or
better still just plain wire) a whole house. Or maybe if you are lucky put
an extra socket in.

Anything else forget it! Its the same with carpenters and even plumbers to
be honest. You can get a decorator easily but a plasterer is a bit of a
job. They tend to be expensive and often no show or " terminators" - all be
back - b ut they never do come back.

What we seem to have a lot of ( and dont need in my area) is IT and web
designers and salesmen for double glazing etc ( and no workmen once they
get the orders!) and graduates in naff subjects are ten a penny and
working in Tesco and co op stacking shelves.

That said, most firms wont employ enough tradesmen and that is another
reason you seem to end up waiting. I have asked a couple of electrical
repair firms and maintenance firms to send an electrician and they too have
let me down.

Now my husband is looking at it. But we still cant find anything. he rang
Creda and they said that the fault that we thought might be on that heater
was one they had met before. Apparently it will wack three times the
electric if it stops working. So we think its the heater still.

But I shall let you know when we have done all the working out.

"endymion" wrote in message
...

"ARWadworth" wrote in message
om...

"endymion" wrote in message
...





Bon't blame Maggie for this one. Your house is your house. Local electric
companies never worked for free in a house. The electric co (private or
public) have only ever supplied houses with an electric supply. What you
do with that supply is up to you.

I do blame Maggie. Not for my house being my house but because even though
its my house I could get an electrician if I paid for it from SWEB before
privateization ( and I did twice). Now I cant find one willing to come out
at all.

I suppose it depends where you live to an extent but I know there are
electricians but they simply dont want the kind of work we are talking
here. They want simple ( and big as I suppose) jobs - like re wire ( or
better still just plain wire) a whole house. Or maybe if you are lucky
put an extra socket in.

Anything else forget it! Its the same with carpenters and even plumbers
to be honest. You can get a decorator easily but a plasterer is a bit of
a job. They tend to be expensive and often no show or " terminators" -
all be back - b ut they never do come back.

Don't fret, now the government has started a recession there will be plenty
of out of work plumbers, brickies, electricians and every other trade
looking for jobs to prop up their benefits.

Anyway all your problem needs is a bit of common sense and some test kit.

Think about buying one of these
http://www.ethicalsuperstore.com/pro...FRqH1Qod821FWg

Its a simplified clamp on meter that works out how much power you are using.
Then you can just turn stuff on and off until you find the problem.

You don't have to put the sensor around the meter tails, you can fit it
around any circuit if you want.

endymion wrote:

Now my husband is looking at it. But we still cant find anything. he
rang Creda and they said that the fault that we thought might be on that
heater was one they had met before. Apparently it will wack three times
the electric if it stops working. So we think its the heater still.

Some misunderstanding here, I think. A fault in the heater causing it
to draw three times the rated current is conceivable (short-circuit
across part of an element) but very unlikely in practice. If such a
fault did occur then your 24 kWh (3.4 kW) rated heater would be taking
over 10 kW and over 40 amps. If it's properly wired a fuse would soon
blow or a circuit breaker trip. If the fuse has been replaced with the
proverbial 6 inch nail then one of two things will happen next: either
the fault will clear itself as the remaining segment of element burns
out, or the fault will turn into a short-circuit. In the first case the
heater would then either be completely dead or would work at reduced
power. In the second case the fuse or MCB would then finally blow or
trip, or else the wiring would catch fire. A sustained fault whereby
the heater draws over 10 kW night after night really is inconceivable.

If your overnight consumption really is 65 units - an average of over 9
kW over 7 hours - then a lot of heat must be going /somewhere/. Are you
sure you're reading the meter correctly?

--
Andy

On Sun, 14 Sep 2008 08:08:41 +0100, "endymion"
wrote:

I do blame Maggie. Not for my house being my house but because even though
its my house I could get an electrician if I paid for it from SWEB before
privateization ( and I did twice). Now I cant find one willing to come out
at all.

You are going back a bit there !

Things have changed a lot in 18 (?) years. ISTR us using YEB
electricians being a bit of a last resort.

I suppose it depends where you live to an extent but I know there are
electricians but they simply dont want the kind of work we are talking
here. They want simple ( and big as I suppose) jobs - like re wire ( or
better still just plain wire) a whole house. Or maybe if you are lucky put
an extra socket in.

Anything else forget it! Its the same with carpenters and even plumbers to
be honest. You can get a decorator easily but a plasterer is a bit of a
job. They tend to be expensive and often no show or " terminators" - all be
back - b ut they never do come back.


High costs and high taxes make it impossible to make a living
travelling out to do small jobs. A tradesman can bill out about 1,000
hours per year the average salary is over £25k, the tradesman has
overheads, hence I have to pay about £220 a day or part thereof for a
joiner.


What we seem to have a lot of ( and dont need in my area) is IT and web
designers and salesmen for double glazing etc ( and no workmen once they
get the orders!) and graduates in naff subjects are ten a penny and
working in Tesco and co op stacking shelves.

That said, most firms wont employ enough tradesmen and that is another
reason you seem to end up waiting. I have asked a couple of electrical
repair firms and maintenance firms to send an electrician and they too have
let me down.

Now my husband is looking at it. But we still cant find anything. he rang
Creda and they said that the fault that we thought might be on that heater
was one they had met before.

I have a feeling they might have got the wrong end of the stick in a
short telephone call.

Apparently it will wack three times the electric if it stops working.

If the input thermostat sticks closed it would draw current the whole
time it was energised that might in some circumstances equate to 3x
the energy consumption, but the heater would be getting very hot.

So we think its the heater still.

I think you have some more observations to make.

But I shall let you know when we have done all the working out.

Derek

Derek Geldard wrote:

If the input thermostat sticks closed it would draw current the whole
time it was energised that might in some circumstances equate to 3x
the energy consumption, but the heater would be getting very hot.

No, for storage heaters the rated input power (3.4 kW in this case) is
equal to one seventh of the rated heat charge (24 kWh). For a full
charge from cold the thermostat will remain closed for the whole 7 hr
period. The consumption in 7 hours will not exceed the rated 24 kWh,
give or take small tolerances on the element resistance and supply voltage.

--
Andy

On Sun, 14 Sep 2008 23:57:53 +0100, Andy Wade
wrote:

Derek Geldard wrote:

If the input thermostat sticks closed it would draw current the whole
time it was energised that might in some circumstances equate to 3x
the energy consumption, but the heater would be getting very hot.

No, for storage heaters the rated input power (3.4 kW in this case) is
equal to one seventh of the rated heat charge (24 kWh). For a full
charge from cold the thermostat will remain closed for the whole 7 hr
period. The consumption in 7 hours will not exceed the rated 24 kWh,
give or take small tolerances on the element resistance and supply voltage.

That's not it then !!!

Although to be fair by 3x the energy consumption I did mean 3 x the
steady state consumption IE a heater with some residual heat and the
thermostat set low (bit of an unlikely combination).

A shorted input thermostat was the fault condition I thought the
manufacturers helpline guy could have been on about. I can't think
what else, can you ?

Derek

Derek Geldard wrote:

That's not it then !!!

I don't think so.

A shorted input thermostat was the fault condition I thought the
manufacturers helpline guy could have been on about. I can't think
what else, can you ?

As I said earlier you can imagine a partly shorted element causing an
increase in input power, but any such fault is likely be quite transient
for the reasons I gave. Also all storage heaters I've ever had anything
to do with have a second overheat protection 'stat (with a
non-self-resetting cut-out action) in series with the mains input.
Anything causing a ~3 kW heater to draw 9-10 kW is going to cause that
to trip if none of the other outcomes I mentioned apply.

--
Andy

endymion wrote:

I cant follow this, maybe someone with a qualification can do the maths and
tell me if its right?

I put on one of the storage heaters last night ( not the new one, it hasnt
been fitted yet).

I have checked the meter daily so I know my electric usage each night is
between 15 and 17 units WITHOUT the storage heater(s) on.

I am charged at 5 p a unit ( kw?)

I put one 3.25 kw capacity storage heater on last night. The electric
meter read 82 units used overnight.

Now if I take away the 17 I would normally use during the night for my
essentials and drabs , that means the heater used 65 units over night.
That means the heater cost me nearly a fiver to have it on for one night.

Is my maths correct?

Is that right, should a 3.5 kw heater running for 7 hours on economy be
using that much electric?

Does that sound right to you? Just need to know. I am clueless and confused
totally.

Just a thought: Everyone's replies have assumed that you are reading
the meter correctly. Is it possible that you may have misunderstood
how to read it? Perhaps you could tell us more about the meter, its
display and how you are reading it?
Remember that it will probably display tenths of a unit so it's quite
possible you have only used 1/10th of what you think. Now 6.5 units
is 6.5kWh which could well be consistent with a 3.25kW storage heater
on a 2/3 setting. It will use 1 unit every 20 minutes - but only
while the internal thermostat is calling for heat which will only be
intermittent. So that would mean it was calling for heat for a
*total* of about 2 hours. Sounds about right.

Whatever is going on don't panic, there must be a fault in your logic
rather than the meter or the heater. If you really were consuming
that much power you'd know - the house would be roasty-toasty-plus-
plus.

--
Calvin

"Calvin" wrote in message
...
endymion wrote:

I cant follow this, maybe someone with a qualification can do the maths
and
tell me if its right?

I put on one of the storage heaters last night ( not the new one, it
hasnt
been fitted yet).

I have checked the meter daily so I know my electric usage each night is
between 15 and 17 units WITHOUT the storage heater(s) on.

I am charged at 5 p a unit ( kw?)

I put one 3.25 kw capacity storage heater on last night. The electric
meter read 82 units used overnight.

Now if I take away the 17 I would normally use during the night for my
essentials and drabs , that means the heater used 65 units over night.
That means the heater cost me nearly a fiver to have it on for one
night.

Is my maths correct?

Is that right, should a 3.5 kw heater running for 7 hours on economy be
using that much electric?

Does that sound right to you? Just need to know. I am clueless and
confused
totally.

Just a thought: Everyone's replies have assumed that you are reading
the meter correctly.

Mine didn't.
That is why I suggested he buys an energy monitor.