I have been thinking about getting a solar panel to keep a fridge runnning
and keep a battery charged while camping.
Has anyone any experience/opinions?

Also with energy prices being the way they are has anyone gone further than
this and installed solar in the home? Likewise with wind, a local electrical
supplier reckoned he could get me a 2kw turbine for approx £1500. At one
point I would have thought alternative power was prohibitively expensive but
now it looks as though it may sense.

On 2008-07-27 11:49:57 +0100, "R D S" said:

I have been thinking about getting a solar panel to keep a fridge runnning
and keep a battery charged while camping.
Has anyone any experience/opinions?

Also with energy prices being the way they are has anyone gone further than
this and installed solar in the home? Likewise with wind, a local electrical
supplier reckoned he could get me a 2kw turbine for approx £1500. At one
point I would have thought alternative power was prohibitively expensive but
now it looks as though it may sense.

It would do if it actually delivered on its promises. In fact it
falls way short and so is not viable at the scale and budget suggested.

"R D S" wrote in message
...
I have been thinking about getting a solar panel to keep a fridge runnning
and keep a battery charged while camping.
Has anyone any experience/opinions?

We have a solar panel in the caravan which keeps the leisure battery topped
up. We're very happy with it, got it from Maplins, about £10. We got another
to keep the scooter battery topped up because it's only used for very short
journeys.

Also with energy prices being the way they are has anyone gone further
than this and installed solar in the home?

We haven't a pv array although we're considering it but we do have a solar
dhw panel which is brilliant.

Likewise with wind, a local electrical supplier reckoned he could get me a
2kw turbine for approx £1500. At one point I would have thought
alternative power was prohibitively expensive but now it looks as though
it may sense.

We looked into that but all the suppliers have told us that there are too
many buildings and trees around us for it to be efficient. Spouse would
still like one!

Yes, people have mocked us about our investments but we're having the last
laugh :-)

They also mocked us about signing up to keeping our gas prices at the (then)
current level. I bet they're eating their cynical words now!

Installing any alternative energy gadgets doesn't just give a financial
return (which isn't the reason most people do it anyway), it makes one aware
of helping the environment in other ways - by not squandering our resources.

Mary

"Mary Fisher" wrote in message
. net...
We haven't a pv array although we're considering it but we do have a solar
dhw panel which is brilliant.

Which type do you have?

"R D S" wrote in message
...
"Mary Fisher" wrote in message
. net...
We haven't a pv array although we're considering it but we do have a
solar dhw panel which is brilliant.

Which type do you have?

Solartwin

R D S wrote:

"Mary Fisher" wrote in message
. net...
We haven't a pv array although we're considering it but we do have a solar
dhw panel which is brilliant.

Which type do you have?

The pointless cheapskate stupid version.

Installing any alternative energy gadgets doesn't just give a financial
return (which isn't the reason most people do it anyway), it makes one aware
of helping the environment in other ways - by not squandering our resources.

Would be interesting to know the total costs for making a solar panel
not just for its useful life but from start to scrapping, as well as
how they are made and if that's good for the environment?

John

"John" wrote in message
...

Installing any alternative energy gadgets doesn't just give a financial
return (which isn't the reason most people do it anyway), it makes one
aware
of helping the environment in other ways - by not squandering our
resources.

Would be interesting to know the total costs for making a solar panel
not just for its useful life but from start to scrapping, as well as
how they are made and if that's good for the environment?

John

Well you could same about power stations.

And for the pro nuclear brigade apparently it is going to cost about £76
billion to decomission all the old ones.

There is never going to be energy production without envionmental impact.

R D S wrote:
"John" wrote in message
...
Installing any alternative energy gadgets doesn't just give a financial
return (which isn't the reason most people do it anyway), it makes one
aware
of helping the environment in other ways - by not squandering our
resources.
Would be interesting to know the total costs for making a solar panel
not just for its useful life but from start to scrapping, as well as
how they are made and if that's good for the environment?

John

Well you could same about power stations.

And for the pro nuclear brigade apparently it is going to cost about £76
billion to decomission all the old ones.

the cots of digging up all the concrete bases for the 100,000 windmills
that will be needed to replace them, will nbe even greater when they
find the *******s don't work..


Anyway, it costs about 6 billion to construct AND decommsion a 3GW sized
nuclear reactor, so your number are a bit out.


There is never going to be energy production without envionmental impact.

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...

Anyway, it costs about 6 billion to construct AND decommsion a 3GW sized
nuclear reactor, so your number are a bit out.

I didn't say 'each', I said 'all'.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/7421879.stm

"John" wrote in message
...

Installing any alternative energy gadgets doesn't just give a financial
return (which isn't the reason most people do it anyway), it makes one
aware
of helping the environment in other ways - by not squandering our
resources.

Would be interesting to know the total costs for making a solar panel
not just for its useful life but from start to scrapping, as well as
how they are made and if that's good for the environment?

Would be interesting to know the same about a conventional boiler ...

On Sun, 27 Jul 2008 19:36:20 +0100, John wrote:

Would be interesting to know the total costs for making a solar panel
not just for its useful life but from start to scrapping, as well as
how they are made and if that's good for the environment?

What sort of "solar panel" are we talking about? Thermal or photvoltaic,
the latter I suspect has a massive enviromental production cost to make
the silicon wafers and the process required to turn them into photovoltaic
cells. End of life disposal may have toruble with the chemicals/elements
that make the cells.

A simple thermal solar panel probably isn't to bad dfor production and
there isn't a "nasty chemicals" problem at end of life. A vacuum tube
based panel won't be so good.

--
Cheers
Dave.

On 27 Jul, 21:55, "Dave Liquorice"
wrote:

A simple thermal solar panel probably isn't to bad dfor production and
there isn't a "nasty chemicals" problem at end of life. A vacuum tube
based panel won't be so good.

Why not? They're only a very soft vacuum. If you're worried about the
tiny pollution problem from the getters, then take a look at your TV
long before your solar panels.

On Mon, 28 Jul 2008 10:28:12 -0700 (PDT), Andy Dingley wrote:

A simple thermal solar panel probably isn't to bad dfor production and
there isn't a "nasty chemicals" problem at end of life. A vacuum tube
based panel won't be so good.

Why not? They're only a very soft vacuum. If you're worried about the
tiny pollution problem from the getters, then take a look at your TV
long before your solar panels.

I was thinking of the chemical used in the internal heat pipe. I don't
know what it is though...

--
Cheers
Dave.

On Sun, 27 Jul 2008 11:49:57 +0100, R D S wrote:

I have been thinking about getting a solar panel to keep a fridge
runnning and keep a battery charged while camping.

It'll have to be a *big* (expensive) photovoltaic panel to run a fridge
even under bright sunlight conditions. Battery top up is practical against
self discharge and light use.

Also with energy prices being the way they are has anyone gone further
than this and installed solar in the home? Likewise with wind, a local
electrical supplier reckoned he could get me a 2kw turbine for approx
£1500.

Does that include the control gear, grid connect, invertor, etc etc. Bear
in mind that even well sited turbines struggle to produce more than 1/3 of
their rated capacity over a year, so think of that 2kW as more like 600W,
if your lucky.

At one point I would have thought alternative power was prohibitively
expensive but now it looks as though it may sense.

£1500 buys 18750kWhr of mains lecky at 8p/unit.

18750 / 0.6 = 31250 hrs, 1300 days, 3.5 years assuming a good site with
wind strong enough (and not too strong) to have the turbine generating
it's rated output for at least some of the time. You'll still be buying
mains power when the wind doesn't blow as well, you might be able to sell
a bit to the grid but not much.

Recovery of capital takes a long time, but not paying utility companies
for their (mainly) fossil based energy should not be ignored.

--
Cheers
Dave.

"Dave Liquorice" wrote in message
ll.net...
On Sun, 27 Jul 2008 11:49:57 +0100, R D S wrote:

I have been thinking about getting a solar panel to keep a fridge
runnning and keep a battery charged while camping.

It'll have to be a *big* (expensive) photovoltaic panel to run a fridge
even under bright sunlight conditions.

Not a caravan fridge!

Mary

In article ,
"Mary Fisher" writes:

"Dave Liquorice" wrote in message
ll.net...
On Sun, 27 Jul 2008 11:49:57 +0100, R D S wrote:

I have been thinking about getting a solar panel to keep a fridge
runnning and keep a battery charged while camping.

It'll have to be a *big* (expensive) photovoltaic panel to run a fridge
even under bright sunlight conditions.

Not a caravan fridge!

Also, caravan fridges are often adsorption or peltier mechanism
(for dual fuel or dual voltage operation), neither of which are
as efficient as a conventional compressor fridge.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

On Jul 27, 1:49*pm, (Andrew Gabriel)
wrote:
In article ,
* * * * "Mary Fisher" writes:



"Dave Liquorice" wrote in message
ill.net...
On Sun, 27 Jul 2008 11:49:57 +0100, R D S wrote:

I have been thinking about getting a solar panel to keep a fridge
runnning and keep a battery charged while camping.

It'll have to be a *big* (expensive) photovoltaic panel to run a fridge
even under bright sunlight conditions.

Not a caravan fridge!

Also, caravan fridges are often adsorption or peltier mechanism
(for dual fuel or dual voltage operation), neither of which are
as efficient as a conventional compressor fridge.

If you're running this batteryless it'll have to be a peltier type, as
compressors can't be run off variable output panels.

Ammonia absorption fridges may be a better bet, as despite being
horribly inefficient they can be run off a thermal panel instead of
electrical, giving you a working system at a fraction the price. Flat
panel plus reflectors. Coldness storage is achieved by packing the
icebox with tetrapak cartons of milk, which being sealed and
sterilised won't spoil, and the freeze/thaw cycle gives good latent
heat (cold) storage. Means you cant use the frozen bit for anything of
course - and best label the cartons clearly in case some silly thinks
they're drinkable.


NT

On 27 Jul, 16:28, wrote:

If you're running this batteryless it'll have to be a peltier type, as
compressors can't be run off variable output panels.

Yes they can! Getting that to work was the innovation that allowed
the 3rd world vaccine fridges.

Do caravans (ie. cheap retail mass market) use compressors (yet)? My
only experience with them even pre-dates the Peltiers.

On 27 Jul 2008 12:49:56 GMT, Andrew Gabriel wrote:

I have been thinking about getting a solar panel to keep a fridge
runnning and keep a battery charged while camping.

It'll have to be a *big* (expensive) photovoltaic panel to run a
fridge even under bright sunlight conditions.

Not a caravan fridge!

Also, caravan fridges are often adsorption or peltier mechanism
(for dual fuel or dual voltage operation), neither of which are
as efficient as a conventional compressor fridge.

And the cooler boxes that you plug into your ciggy lighter socket pull
about 10A @ 12v, 120W that's a big, expensive, photovoltaic panel.

http://www.maplin.co.uk/module.aspx?...97380&doy=27m7

"only £699.99 - on sale until 29/07/2008
SAVE £130.00 was £829.99"

--
Cheers
Dave.

In article et,
"Dave Liquorice" writes:
On 27 Jul 2008 12:49:56 GMT, Andrew Gabriel wrote:
I have been thinking about getting a solar panel to keep a fridge
runnning and keep a battery charged while camping.

It'll have to be a *big* (expensive) photovoltaic panel to run a
fridge even under bright sunlight conditions.

Not a caravan fridge!

Also, caravan fridges are often adsorption or peltier mechanism
(for dual fuel or dual voltage operation), neither of which are
as efficient as a conventional compressor fridge.
And the cooler boxes that you plug into your ciggy lighter socket pull
about 10A @ 12v, 120W

I have a couple and have serviced several for other people.
They all contain the same peltier device, which is rated
5.5A at car battery charging voltage. There maybe some
larger cool boxes with two devices in them.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

"Andrew Gabriel" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Mary Fisher" writes:

"Dave Liquorice" wrote in message
ll.net...
On Sun, 27 Jul 2008 11:49:57 +0100, R D S wrote:

I have been thinking about getting a solar panel to keep a fridge
runnning and keep a battery charged while camping.

It'll have to be a *big* (expensive) photovoltaic panel to run a fridge
even under bright sunlight conditions.

Not a caravan fridge!

Also, caravan fridges are often adsorption or peltier mechanism

And usually can be run of gas as well as electricity.

Mary

On Sun, 27 Jul 2008 20:31:45 +0100, "Mary Fisher"
wrote:

Also, caravan fridges are often adsorption or peltier mechanism

And usually can be run of gas as well as electricity.

Less so these days. The Peltiers can't.

Even though a Peltier is generally thought of as inefficient, it's
better (and much cheaper) than an electrically-heated gas fridge, so
Peltiers are coming to dominate.

"Mary Fisher" wrote in message
t...

"Dave Liquorice" wrote in message
ll.net...
On Sun, 27 Jul 2008 11:49:57 +0100, R D S wrote:

I have been thinking about getting a solar panel to keep a fridge
runnning and keep a battery charged while camping.

It'll have to be a *big* (expensive) photovoltaic panel to run a fridge
even under bright sunlight conditions.

Not a caravan fridge!

That depends if it's a peltier type which uses a lot of power or the more
expensive but lower consumption compressor type.


--
Chris, (on tour)
Intellect is invisible to the man who has none.
Schopenhauer

Cerumen wrote:
"Mary Fisher" wrote in message
t...
"Dave Liquorice" wrote in message
ll.net...
On Sun, 27 Jul 2008 11:49:57 +0100, R D S wrote:

I have been thinking about getting a solar panel to keep a fridge
runnning and keep a battery charged while camping.
It'll have to be a *big* (expensive) photovoltaic panel to run a fridge
even under bright sunlight conditions.

Not a caravan fridge!

That depends if it's a peltier type which uses a lot of power or the more
expensive but lower consumption compressor type.

Other way round I would have thought? I would not have expected many
compressors to run on 75W or less...

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

"John Rumm" wrote in message
...
Cerumen wrote:
"Mary Fisher" wrote in message
t...
"Dave Liquorice" wrote in message
ll.net...
On Sun, 27 Jul 2008 11:49:57 +0100, R D S wrote:

I have been thinking about getting a solar panel to keep a fridge
runnning and keep a battery charged while camping.
It'll have to be a *big* (expensive) photovoltaic panel to run a fridge
even under bright sunlight conditions.

Not a caravan fridge!

That depends if it's a peltier type which uses a lot of power or the more
expensive but lower consumption compressor type.

Other way round I would have thought? I would not have expected many
compressors to run on 75W or less...

I have a 12 volt compressor that runs on 3 amps and of course it has a
thermostat so is not continuously pulling power as peltier units do.
According to the manual to maintain 5C at ambient 20C it runs 10% of the
time


--
Chris, (on tour)
Intellect is invisible to the man who has none.
Schopenhauer

Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Sun, 27 Jul 2008 11:49:57 +0100, R D S wrote:

I have been thinking about getting a solar panel to keep a fridge
runnning and keep a battery charged while camping.

It'll have to be a *big* (expensive) photovoltaic panel to run a fridge
even under bright sunlight conditions. Battery top up is practical against
self discharge and light use.

Also with energy prices being the way they are has anyone gone further
than this and installed solar in the home? Likewise with wind, a local
electrical supplier reckoned he could get me a 2kw turbine for approx
£1500.

Does that include the control gear, grid connect, invertor, etc etc. Bear
in mind that even well sited turbines struggle to produce more than 1/3 of
their rated capacity over a year, so think of that 2kW as more like 600W,
if your lucky.

At one point I would have thought alternative power was prohibitively
expensive but now it looks as though it may sense.

£1500 buys 18750kWhr of mains lecky at 8p/unit.

18750 / 0.6 = 31250 hrs, 1300 days, 3.5 years assuming a good site with
wind strong enough (and not too strong) to have the turbine generating
it's rated output for at least some of the time. You'll still be buying
mains power when the wind doesn't blow as well, you might be able to sell
a bit to the grid but not much.

Recovery of capital takes a long time, but not paying utility companies
for their (mainly) fossil based energy should not be ignored.

Do not assume a wind turbine will run maintenance free forever.
I wonder how much fossil fuel is used making a turbine?
Will it need planning permission?
I believe solar panels might have a bit more going for them.
If only there were a cheap way of storing some of the heat we have today.

On Sun, 27 Jul 2008 13:41:59 +0100, Invisible Man wrote:

Do not assume a wind turbine will run maintenance free forever.
I wonder how much fossil fuel is used making a turbine?

Nothing runs maintenance free for ever and fossil fuels are used in the
manufacture/transport of everything as well.

Will it need planning permission?

Probably, at least one capable of producing any useful power.

I believe solar panels might have a bit more going for them.
If only there were a cheap way of storing some of the heat we have
today.

Heat bank or thermal store, ie a large tank of water heated by what ever
means to 80C.

--
Cheers
Dave.

Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Sun, 27 Jul 2008 13:41:59 +0100, Invisible Man wrote:

Do not assume a wind turbine will run maintenance free forever.
I wonder how much fossil fuel is used making a turbine?

Nothing runs maintenance free for ever and fossil fuels are used in the
manufacture/transport of everything as well.

Will it need planning permission?

Probably, at least one capable of producing any useful power.

I believe solar panels might have a bit more going for them.
If only there were a cheap way of storing some of the heat we have
today.

Heat bank or thermal store, ie a large tank of water heated by what ever
means to 80C.

Might have got cold by February. I believe I did hear somewhere they
were pumping heat into the ground and recovering is later

Invisible Man wrote:
Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Sun, 27 Jul 2008 13:41:59 +0100, Invisible Man wrote:

Do not assume a wind turbine will run maintenance free forever.
I wonder how much fossil fuel is used making a turbine?

Nothing runs maintenance free for ever and fossil fuels are used in
the manufacture/transport of everything as well.

Will it need planning permission?

Probably, at least one capable of producing any useful power.

I believe solar panels might have a bit more going for them.
If only there were a cheap way of storing some of the heat we have
today.

Heat bank or thermal store, ie a large tank of water heated by what
ever means to 80C.

Might have got cold by February. I believe I did hear somewhere they
were pumping heat into the ground and recovering is later

The only form of 'solar' energy that actually makes sense...

On 27 Jul, 13:41, Invisible Man wrote:

Do not assume a wind turbine will run maintenance free forever.

Domestic-sized ones (and Rutlands) do. Given their replacement cost /
access cost, thhe only practical option is a "sealed for life"
approach. When it finally goes, then you're looking at _replacing_ the
entire generator / hub / swivel package. As the blades will usually
have a shorter life, they'd be replaced too - and probably had been
beforehand.

The important factor here is to allow for blade replacement, and
ideally blade replacement up-tower. Sealed-for-life design does at
least mean an opportunity for decent weather sealing.

Invisible Man wrote:
Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Sun, 27 Jul 2008 11:49:57 +0100, R D S wrote:

I have been thinking about getting a solar panel to keep a fridge
runnning and keep a battery charged while camping.

It'll have to be a *big* (expensive) photovoltaic panel to run a
fridge even under bright sunlight conditions. Battery top up is
practical against self discharge and light use.

Also with energy prices being the way they are has anyone gone
further than this and installed solar in the home? Likewise with
wind, a local electrical supplier reckoned he could get me a 2kw
turbine for approx £1500.

Does that include the control gear, grid connect, invertor, etc etc.
Bear in mind that even well sited turbines struggle to produce more
than 1/3 of their rated capacity over a year, so think of that 2kW as
more like 600W, if your lucky.

At one point I would have thought alternative power was prohibitively
expensive but now it looks as though it may sense.

£1500 buys 18750kWhr of mains lecky at 8p/unit.

18750 / 0.6 = 31250 hrs, 1300 days, 3.5 years assuming a good site
with wind strong enough (and not too strong) to have the turbine
generating it's rated output for at least some of the time. You'll
still be buying mains power when the wind doesn't blow as well, you
might be able to sell a bit to the grid but not much.

Recovery of capital takes a long time, but not paying utility
companies for their (mainly) fossil based energy should not be ignored.

Do not assume a wind turbine will run maintenance free forever.
I wonder how much fossil fuel is used making a turbine?
Will it need planning permission?
I believe solar panels might have a bit more going for them.
If only there were a cheap way of storing some of the heat we have today.

Try a well insulated hot water tank.

It wont be any more of a demented solution than anything else.

Eco energy has taken over from double glazing as the Next Big Con.

Recovery of capital takes a long time, but not paying utility companies
for their (mainly) fossil based energy should not be ignored.

There will be a big shift in the next ten years to power stations that
don't damage the environment are clean and generate enough electricity
for everyone i.e. Nuclear Power.

At the moment with rising prices for utilities and fuel people are
stuck between a rock and a hard place. We might have to cut our
electric and gas consumption in the next few years until more Nuclear
Power stations are built and prices come down.

John

"John" wrote in message
news

At the moment with rising prices for utilities and fuel people are
stuck between a rock and a hard place. We might have to cut our
electric and gas consumption in the next few years

I think that's the way to go.

Do we NEED all the power we use?? (as opposed to WANT)

Mary

Mary Fisher wrote:
"John" wrote in message
news
At the moment with rising prices for utilities and fuel people are
stuck between a rock and a hard place. We might have to cut our
electric and gas consumption in the next few years

I think that's the way to go.

Do we NEED all the power we use?? (as opposed to WANT)


Yes, or at least something like 50% of it.

The 'sustainable' level is something like a person to every 10 acres of
good arable land.

We blew that about 1700...

At a population of 6 million. We now have 60 million.



Mary

In message , John
writes

Recovery of capital takes a long time, but not paying utility companies
for their (mainly) fossil based energy should not be ignored.

There will be a big shift in the next ten years to power stations that
don't damage the environment are clean and generate enough electricity
for everyone i.e. Nuclear Power.

At the moment with rising prices for utilities and fuel people are
stuck between a rock and a hard place. We might have to cut our
electric and gas consumption in the next few years until more Nuclear
Power stations are built and prices come down.


and the award for stating the bleedin' obvious goes to ...


John



--
geoff

"R D S" wrote in message
...
I have been thinking about getting a solar panel to keep a fridge runnning
and keep a battery charged while camping.
Has anyone any experience/opinions?

Also with energy prices being the way they are has anyone gone further
than this and installed solar in the home? Likewise with wind, a local
electrical supplier reckoned he could get me a 2kw turbine for approx
£1500. At one point I would have thought alternative power was
prohibitively expensive but now it looks as though it may sense.

Is that 2kw per year?

Doesn't look like a good deal to me for £1500!

Seriously though, 2*24*365 seems like it should return 17,520kw with a
payback of around a year.

Empirical evidence suggests you will be lucky if you get 1,750kw.

tim

R D S said...
Also with energy prices being the way they are has anyone gone further than
this and installed solar in the home?

Yes. At our last house (SE Wales) we had solar panels in the roof for
heating water, and they were fabulous. It didn't need to be hot; it just
needed to be sunny for a couple of hours. The water was piping hot and
we rarely had to supplement the panels with the immersion heater.

Installation was expensive, and it would probably have taken us 5 to 10
years to recoup our outlay. We moved before that happened, and the solar
panels were a major selling point.

If I had the money now I'd do it again.

--
Fran
To email me see 'from' in headers; use your net know-how to find the
domain, and put my real name in front thereof.

Fran wrote:
R D S said...
Also with energy prices being the way they are has anyone gone further than
this and installed solar in the home?

Yes. At our last house (SE Wales) we had solar panels in the roof for
heating water, and they were fabulous. It didn't need to be hot; it just
needed to be sunny for a couple of hours. The water was piping hot and
we rarely had to supplement the panels with the immersion heater.

Installation was expensive, and it would probably have taken us 5 to 10
years to recoup our outlay. We moved before that happened, and the solar
panels were a major selling point.

If I had the money now I'd do it again.

DHW probably accounts for maybe 60 quid a year fuel costs. If the panels
cost more than £600, they were a waste of money.

The Natural Philosopher said...
Fran wrote:
R D S said...
Also with energy prices being the way they are has anyone gone further than
this and installed solar in the home?

Yes. At our last house (SE Wales) we had solar panels in the roof for
heating water, and they were fabulous. It didn't need to be hot; it just
needed to be sunny for a couple of hours. The water was piping hot and
we rarely had to supplement the panels with the immersion heater.

Installation was expensive, and it would probably have taken us 5 to 10
years to recoup our outlay. We moved before that happened, and the solar
panels were a major selling point.

If I had the money now I'd do it again.

DHW probably accounts for maybe 60 quid a year fuel costs. If the panels
cost more than £600, they were a waste of money.

That depends on how much hot water you want though, doesn't it. I have
a large family and we spend considerably more than £60 a year heating
water for laundry and personal hygiene. Our expenses will reduce as the
children leave home, but that's not going to happen for a few years yet.

--
Fran
To email me see 'from' in headers; use your net know-how to find the
domain, and put my real name in front thereof.