On 2008-07-28 07:13:35 +0100, "MatSav" matthew | dot | savage | at |
dsl | dot | pipex | dot | com said:

"Paul P" wrote in message
...

...Why not get a diesel generator and
run it on old chip fat and vegetable oil - there is no law
about it.

Oh, but there are laws that cover how you obtain such fuel. I
very much doubt that even a large family would generate enough of
its own waste oil to run a generator - so we are into the realms
of collecting waste from commercial users, such as chip shops. In
order to do that legally, in the UK, you need a waste transfer
licence from the Environment Agency. The supplier commits an
offence if they allow you to carry the waste oil without a
licence, and you commit an offence if you take it without said
licence.

Do you 'ave a leesonce for that minkey?

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
news:488d64ff@qaanaaq...

Do you 'ave a leesonce for that minkey?

No! I vas ****ing by your door, ven I saw your general's outfart!
;-)

--
MatSav

"John Rumm" wrote in message
et...
Mary Fisher wrote:

I read a post from a bloke however who did install a solar thermal
system, where its only used to heat water. He said he noticed a big
drop in his bills, maybe as much as a third. It did cost a heck of a
lot to install though and that's when he still did a lot of the work
himself and got a grant. Plus he will have to stay put for 20 odd
years for it to repay itself and have been worth it.

Not true. But payback isn't an issue.

Says who?

Says me and all the people I know who have invested in such devices.

Do you consider the payback time on everything you buy?

If it never pays back in financial terms, there is a fair chance it will
never pay back in environment ones either.

At my previous house, I estimate my annual hot water costs were about
£100. Say a solar system could save me 70% of those costs over the year -
it would take ten years to recover the costs if the system cost £700. Many
of the commercial systems cost more than double that.

And power prices are more than double :-)

"Paul P" wrote in message
...

....

Also watch out for the latest LED lightbulbs! They look the same as a
frosted one
but have a coating inside that is similar to what is inside a fluorescent
tube. A small
1watt UV LED causes it to light up a brilliant white. So you can imagine
what damage
this and other low energy devices are causing to power companies - that's
why they
are putting the price up.

Oh come on!

On Mon, 28 Jul 2008 09:38:05 +0100 someone who may be "Mary Fisher"
wrote this:-

Not true. But payback isn't an issue.

Says who?

Says me and all the people I know who have invested in such devices.

Do you consider the payback time on everything you buy?

Indeed. People who would probably never consider the simple payback
period on other items, double glazing, car, kitchen and so on do
claim to be interested in the simple payback period for renewable
energy "generating" items. In my view many have an emotional
opposition to renewables, or at least some forms of renewables, but
try and disguise this by bringing in other arguments.

That is certainly the case on a large scale. For example when all
the other arguments have been countered opponents of large scale
wind farms generally resort to their real objection, an emotional
argument about appearance.



--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

On Mon, 28 Jul 2008 09:43:24 UTC, David Hansen
wrote:

In my view many have emotional support for renewables, or at least some
forms of renewables, but try and disguise this by bringing in other
arguments.

--
The information contained in this post is copyright the
poster, and specifically may not be published in, or used by
http://www.diybanter.com

"Mary Fisher" wrote in message
t...

"John Rumm" wrote in message
et...
Mary Fisher wrote:

I read a post from a bloke however who did install a solar thermal
system, where its only used to heat water. He said he noticed a big
drop in his bills, maybe as much as a third. It did cost a heck of a
lot to install though and that's when he still did a lot of the work
himself and got a grant. Plus he will have to stay put for 20 odd
years for it to repay itself and have been worth it.

Not true. But payback isn't an issue.

Says who?

Says me and all the people I know who have invested in such devices.

But they are green mugs who think they are helping and want to feel smug
whatever the cost.
The reality is that cost and environmental damage tend to be related..
if its expensive it probably damages the environment.
So a long payback period means its probably not going to save any CO2 but
may save money if fuel continues to go up.


Do you consider the payback time on everything you buy?

Yes.


If it never pays back in financial terms, there is a fair chance it will
never pay back in environment ones either.

At my previous house, I estimate my annual hot water costs were about
£100. Say a solar system could save me 70% of those costs over the year -
it would take ten years to recover the costs if the system cost £700.
Many of the commercial systems cost more than double that.

And power prices are more than double :-)

The cost to the environment hasn't doubled though.. you may save money at a
cost to the environment.. this is the opposite of what you appear to think.

Cerumen wrote:
"Mary Fisher" wrote in message
t...
"Dave Liquorice" wrote in message
ll.net...
On Sun, 27 Jul 2008 11:49:57 +0100, R D S wrote:

I have been thinking about getting a solar panel to keep a fridge
runnning and keep a battery charged while camping.
It'll have to be a *big* (expensive) photovoltaic panel to run a fridge
even under bright sunlight conditions.

Not a caravan fridge!

That depends if it's a peltier type which uses a lot of power or the more
expensive but lower consumption compressor type.

Other way round I would have thought? I would not have expected many
compressors to run on 75W or less...

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 2008-07-28 10:43:24 +0100, David Hansen
said:

On Mon, 28 Jul 2008 09:38:05 +0100 someone who may be "Mary Fisher"
wrote this:-

Not true. But payback isn't an issue.

Says who?

Says me and all the people I know who have invested in such devices.

Do you consider the payback time on everything you buy?

Indeed. People who would probably never consider the simple payback
period on other items, double glazing, car, kitchen and so on do
claim to be interested in the simple payback period for renewable
energy "generating" items.

That's because the industry around these uses payback period as a major
selling point, so it's their own fault. One of the first rules of
selling is to show the virtues of the product but not highlight the
deficiencies. This doesn't mean lying about the product.



In my view many have an emotional
opposition to renewables, or at least some forms of renewables, but
try and disguise this by bringing in other arguments.

Generally this is the companies selling these things. If their
arguments actually are weak on things like payback period, then they
are rather stupid if they raise them.

If the argument for buying this stuff is not an economic one, but a
feel good one, then the suppliers should emphasise that as the benefit.
There are people around who will buy on that basis.




That is certainly the case on a large scale. For example when all
the other arguments have been countered opponents of large scale
wind farms generally resort to their real objection, an emotional
argument about appearance.

Well..... since the arguments for having these things are emotional
rather than practical in the first place, it seems reasonable that the
counter arguments can, in part be emotional as well.

Mary Fisher wrote:
"John Rumm" wrote in message
et...
Mary Fisher wrote:

I read a post from a bloke however who did install a solar thermal
system, where its only used to heat water. He said he noticed a big
drop in his bills, maybe as much as a third. It did cost a heck of a
lot to install though and that's when he still did a lot of the work
himself and got a grant. Plus he will have to stay put for 20 odd
years for it to repay itself and have been worth it.
Not true. But payback isn't an issue.
Says who?

Says me and all the people I know who have invested in such devices.

That being one of the problems really. Lack of any hard numbers, but
plenty of anecdotes and testimonials from people either selling the kit,
or from those seeking to justify their investment in it.

Do you consider the payback time on everything you buy?

No, but for something like hot water production, then yes - it is a
significant factor. Probably secondary only to performance and suitability.

Hot water is hot water, so its difficult to have many other selling
points.

If it never pays back in financial terms, there is a fair chance it will
never pay back in environment ones either.

At my previous house, I estimate my annual hot water costs were about
£100. Say a solar system could save me 70% of those costs over the year -
it would take ten years to recover the costs if the system cost £700. Many
of the commercial systems cost more than double that.

And power prices are more than double :-)

And even then we are still looking at more than 10 years payback...

What did your Solartwin system cost including installation etc?

Once solar thermal becomes economically worthwhile, then would be the
time to use it - volumes will have brought the prices of the hardware
down as well. Meanwhile there is no harm in leaving the option open of
using solar thermal if making other changes.

For something like pool heating, it is well worth doing already if you
can DIY.



--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
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| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 27 Jul, 11:49, "R D S" wrote:

a local electrical
supplier reckoned he could get me a 2kw turbine for approx £1500.

I'll be amazed if anyone here can get a 2kW turbine sited anywhere
near their house (except The Natural Philosopher, who lives in a vast
ivory tower that needs 10kW of continuous heating to be habitable).

The £1500 turbines in the sheds won't produce anything like this much.
You can self-build a maximally-sized turbine (for a generous domestic-
sized plot) for a few hundred (Tim Piggott's books). You won't get
this much power though, as you just won't have (unless you're lucky)
space for a big enough blade disc.

Self-build turbines work because the generators don't have to be
unusually efficient. It's not too difficult to make one that extracts
nearly as much electrical energy from a given-sized set of blades as a
"state of the art" generator. It's only a bit harder to contrive blade
controls that let you use the blades effectively across a wide range
of windspeeds, to at least as well as commercial small-turbine
practice. With decent electronics you can certainly beat the CAT and
the large turbine they have that's still using a load bank! The hard
part, and what hurts the effective use of wind turbines on domestic
plots, is the fundamental limit of what's extractable by a given blade
diameter.

If anyone has a Welsh hillside, then go for it. But a backyard in
downtown Milton Keynes isn't going to put much of a dent in your power
bills, even if you can get permission for it.

On 27 Jul, 21:55, "Dave Liquorice"
wrote:

A simple thermal solar panel probably isn't to bad dfor production and
there isn't a "nasty chemicals" problem at end of life. A vacuum tube
based panel won't be so good.

Why not? They're only a very soft vacuum. If you're worried about the
tiny pollution problem from the getters, then take a look at your TV
long before your solar panels.

On 27 Jul, 16:28, wrote:

If you're running this batteryless it'll have to be a peltier type, as
compressors can't be run off variable output panels.

Yes they can! Getting that to work was the innovation that allowed
the 3rd world vaccine fridges.

Do caravans (ie. cheap retail mass market) use compressors (yet)? My
only experience with them even pre-dates the Peltiers.

On 27 Jul, 13:41, Invisible Man wrote:

Do not assume a wind turbine will run maintenance free forever.

Domestic-sized ones (and Rutlands) do. Given their replacement cost /
access cost, thhe only practical option is a "sealed for life"
approach. When it finally goes, then you're looking at _replacing_ the
entire generator / hub / swivel package. As the blades will usually
have a shorter life, they'd be replaced too - and probably had been
beforehand.

The important factor here is to allow for blade replacement, and
ideally blade replacement up-tower. Sealed-for-life design does at
least mean an opportunity for decent weather sealing.

On 28 Jul, 03:00, John Rumm wrote:
Remember also that the
power you can recover will be proportional to the *cube* of the wind
speed. So halving the wind speed on a 2kW turbine will reduce the output
to 500W or so.

You should be able to do better than that, with decent blade design.

The _maximum_ power you can hope to extract varies with the cube of
wind speed. Now the extractable power is a proportion of that,
depending on the efficiency of your blades. This efficiency isn't
constant. If you design the blades for best efficiency at lower speeds
then you can reduce this falloff to much better than a cube law.
They're less efficient at higher speeds, but then you have power to
waste.

This only applies for small turbines, not for commercial generators.
But for blade lengths under 1m (or 2m if you have an autoclave and can
use composites) you can throw a "flimsy" low-speed blade up in a high
wind and it will still survive it, just thanks to the scaling laws.

Andy Dingley wrote:

On 27 Jul, 16:28, wrote:

If you're running this batteryless it'll have to be a peltier type, as
compressors can't be run off variable output panels.

Yes they can! Getting that to work was the innovation that allowed
the 3rd world vaccine fridges.

Do caravans (ie. cheap retail mass market) use compressors (yet)? My
only experience with them even pre-dates the Peltiers.


My camper van's 12V fridge uses a compressor. It is a very low noise
compressor and you cannot hear it start up, run or shut down. It cost
me a fortune, well over twice the cost of a larger Electrolux
conventional 3-way fridge. But it will run for many hours off a
leisure battery when the engine isn't running and there's no 230V
hook-up, which is why I thought it was worth it.

Paul P said...
I have been thinking about getting a solar panel to keep a fridge runnning
and keep a battery charged while camping.
Has anyone any experience/opinions?

Also with energy prices being the way they are has anyone gone further
than this and installed solar in the home? Likewise with wind, a local
electrical supplier reckoned he could get me a 2kw turbine for approx
£1500. At one point I would have thought alternative power was
prohibitively expensive but now it looks as though it may sense.


I would suggest a trip to a place called the Alternative Technology Centre
in Wales.

Marvellous place.
http://www.cat.org.uk/

--
Fran
To email me see 'from' in headers; use your net know-how to find the
domain, and put my real name in front thereof.

Andy Dingley said...
If anyone has a Welsh hillside, then go for it. But a backyard in
downtown Milton Keynes isn't going to put much of a dent in your power
bills, even if you can get permission for it.

Why? What have Welsh hills done to you?

--
Fran
To email me see 'from' in headers; use your net know-how to find the
domain, and put my real name in front thereof.

On Mon, 28 Jul 2008 10:28:12 -0700 (PDT), Andy Dingley wrote:

A simple thermal solar panel probably isn't to bad dfor production and
there isn't a "nasty chemicals" problem at end of life. A vacuum tube
based panel won't be so good.

Why not? They're only a very soft vacuum. If you're worried about the
tiny pollution problem from the getters, then take a look at your TV
long before your solar panels.

I was thinking of the chemical used in the internal heat pipe. I don't
know what it is though...

--
Cheers
Dave.

On Mon, 28 Jul 2008 19:51:34 +0100, Bruce wrote:

Andy Dingley wrote:

On 27 Jul, 16:28, wrote:

If you're running this batteryless it'll have to be a peltier type, as
compressors can't be run off variable output panels.

Yes they can! Getting that to work was the innovation that allowed
the 3rd world vaccine fridges.

Do caravans (ie. cheap retail mass market) use compressors (yet)? My
only experience with them even pre-dates the Peltiers.


My camper van's 12V fridge uses a compressor. It is a very low noise
compressor and you cannot hear it start up, run or shut down. It cost
me a fortune, well over twice the cost of a larger Electrolux
conventional 3-way fridge. But it will run for many hours off a
leisure battery when the engine isn't running and there's no 230V
hook-up, which is why I thought it was worth it.


Are you sure you should have posted that in a thread like this?

You should have said something along the lines that you spent £3000
buying a bicycle and cut it up, keeping the pedals and chain,
disposing of the scrap in the appropriate bin/bag, then got a mortgage
to fund a generator, to go with the pedals, to sit in the back of your
camper, pedaling for eighteen hours a day, to power the fridge, and
having a warm green eco-friendly feeling, and it was worth every
penny.

On Mon, 28 Jul 2008 20:19:23 +0100, EricP
wrote:

Sorry, forgot the breathing mask and scrubber to wear whilst pedaling
to absorb the CO2 you were breathing out.

"EricP" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 28 Jul 2008 19:51:34 +0100, Bruce wrote:

Andy Dingley wrote:

On 27 Jul, 16:28, wrote:

If you're running this batteryless it'll have to be a peltier type, as
compressors can't be run off variable output panels.

Yes they can! Getting that to work was the innovation that allowed
the 3rd world vaccine fridges.

Do caravans (ie. cheap retail mass market) use compressors (yet)? My
only experience with them even pre-dates the Peltiers.


My camper van's 12V fridge uses a compressor. It is a very low noise
compressor and you cannot hear it start up, run or shut down. It cost
me a fortune, well over twice the cost of a larger Electrolux
conventional 3-way fridge. But it will run for many hours off a
leisure battery when the engine isn't running and there's no 230V
hook-up, which is why I thought it was worth it.


Are you sure you should have posted that in a thread like this?

You should have said something along the lines that you spent £3000
buying a bicycle and cut it up, keeping the pedals and chain,
disposing of the scrap in the appropriate bin/bag, then got a mortgage
to fund a generator, to go with the pedals, to sit in the back of your
camper, pedaling for eighteen hours a day, to power the fridge, and
having a warm green eco-friendly feeling, and it was worth every
penny.

How very childish.

"John Rumm" wrote in message
et...
Mary Fisher wrote:
"John Rumm" wrote in message
et...
Mary Fisher wrote:

I read a post from a bloke however who did install a solar thermal
system, where its only used to heat water. He said he noticed a big
drop in his bills, maybe as much as a third. It did cost a heck of a
lot to install though and that's when he still did a lot of the work
himself and got a grant. Plus he will have to stay put for 20 odd
years for it to repay itself and have been worth it.
Not true. But payback isn't an issue.
Says who?

Says me and all the people I know who have invested in such devices.

That being one of the problems really. Lack of any hard numbers, but
plenty of anecdotes and testimonials from people either selling the kit,
or from those seeking to justify their investment in it.

The same applies to the protagonists.

Do you consider the payback time on everything you buy?

No, but for something like hot water production, then yes - it is a
significant factor. Probably secondary only to performance and
suitability.

But why not everything else you pay for?

....

What did your Solartwin system cost including installation etc?

sigh.

We've been through this. Just over £2,000. We installed it ourselves.

Once solar thermal becomes economically worthwhile,

We think it is/has been already.


For something like pool heating, it is well worth doing already if you can
DIY.

POOL heating???

Now I know you're not thinking environmentally :-)

Mary

"Fran" wrote in message
t...

I would suggest a trip to a place called the Alternative Technology
Centre
in Wales.

Marvellous place.
http://www.cat.org.uk/

I'm not too sure about that (yes I've been) but an interest in alternative
technology is a good sign.

Mary

"Mary Fisher" wrote:


"EricP" wrote in message
.. .
On Mon, 28 Jul 2008 19:51:34 +0100, Bruce wrote:

Andy Dingley wrote:

On 27 Jul, 16:28, wrote:

If you're running this batteryless it'll have to be a peltier type, as
compressors can't be run off variable output panels.

Yes they can! Getting that to work was the innovation that allowed
the 3rd world vaccine fridges.

Do caravans (ie. cheap retail mass market) use compressors (yet)? My
only experience with them even pre-dates the Peltiers.


My camper van's 12V fridge uses a compressor. It is a very low noise
compressor and you cannot hear it start up, run or shut down. It cost
me a fortune, well over twice the cost of a larger Electrolux
conventional 3-way fridge. But it will run for many hours off a
leisure battery when the engine isn't running and there's no 230V
hook-up, which is why I thought it was worth it.


Are you sure you should have posted that in a thread like this?

You should have said something along the lines that you spent £3000
buying a bicycle and cut it up, keeping the pedals and chain,
disposing of the scrap in the appropriate bin/bag, then got a mortgage
to fund a generator, to go with the pedals, to sit in the back of your
camper, pedaling for eighteen hours a day, to power the fridge, and
having a warm green eco-friendly feeling, and it was worth every
penny.

How very childish.



Only "very"? It's no wonder he resides in my kill file. ;-)

Fran wrote:

Paul P said...
I have been thinking about getting a solar panel to keep a fridge runnning
and keep a battery charged while camping.
Has anyone any experience/opinions?

Also with energy prices being the way they are has anyone gone further
than this and installed solar in the home? Likewise with wind, a local
electrical supplier reckoned he could get me a 2kw turbine for approx
£1500. At one point I would have thought alternative power was
prohibitively expensive but now it looks as though it may sense.


I would suggest a trip to a place called the Alternative Technology Centre
in Wales.

Marvellous place.
http://www.cat.org.uk/


I found it a disappointment. I had high hopes for it, and at first,
it seemed to be developing into an extremely useful resource.

However, it has since been developed (should that be "diverted"?) into
a tourist attraction with a green theme. Nice organic food, lots of
eco-friendly people, but far too dependent on the revenue from mass
tourism (itself hardly a green activity) to make a real and lasting
difference to society.

On Mon, 28 Jul 2008 20:15:12 +0100 (BST), "Dave Liquorice"
wrote:

On Mon, 28 Jul 2008 10:28:12 -0700 (PDT), Andy Dingley wrote:

A simple thermal solar panel probably isn't to bad dfor production and
there isn't a "nasty chemicals" problem at end of life. A vacuum tube
based panel won't be so good.

Why not? They're only a very soft vacuum. If you're worried about the
tiny pollution problem from the getters, then take a look at your TV
long before your solar panels.

I was thinking of the chemical used in the internal heat pipe. I don't
know what it is though...

But you'll post an accusation that it's a disposal hazard without
bothering to find out?

I obviously can't speak for all of them, but most are simply acetone.

On Mon, 28 Jul 2008 20:47:41 +0100, "Mary Fisher"
wrote:


"EricP" wrote in message
.. .
On Mon, 28 Jul 2008 19:51:34 +0100, Bruce wrote:

Andy Dingley wrote:

On 27 Jul, 16:28, wrote:

If you're running this batteryless it'll have to be a peltier type, as
compressors can't be run off variable output panels.

Yes they can! Getting that to work was the innovation that allowed
the 3rd world vaccine fridges.

Do caravans (ie. cheap retail mass market) use compressors (yet)? My
only experience with them even pre-dates the Peltiers.


My camper van's 12V fridge uses a compressor. It is a very low noise
compressor and you cannot hear it start up, run or shut down. It cost
me a fortune, well over twice the cost of a larger Electrolux
conventional 3-way fridge. But it will run for many hours off a
leisure battery when the engine isn't running and there's no 230V
hook-up, which is why I thought it was worth it.


Are you sure you should have posted that in a thread like this?

You should have said something along the lines that you spent £3000
buying a bicycle and cut it up, keeping the pedals and chain,
disposing of the scrap in the appropriate bin/bag, then got a mortgage
to fund a generator, to go with the pedals, to sit in the back of your
camper, pedaling for eighteen hours a day, to power the fridge, and
having a warm green eco-friendly feeling, and it was worth every
penny.

How very childish.

Oh Mary!

I promise I will buy a windmill to make it up to you.

On Mon, 28 Jul 2008 20:56:43 +0100, Bruce wrote:

How very childish.



Only "very"? It's no wonder he resides in my kill file. ;-)

Glad to hear it Bruce. It worries me when I am read by people who were
at the back of the queue when God was handing out the humour.

Keep up the good KF.


(Oh sorry you won't read it)(Never mind) )

On Mon, 28 Jul 2008 21:00:30 +0100, Bruce wrote:

I found it a disappointment. I had high hopes for it, and at first,
it seemed to be developing into an extremely useful resource.

I wasn't impressed about 30 years ago, a few old radiators producing luke
warm water, a compost heap and a hydralic ram summed it up.

Also many of the alternatives where effectively new build rather than
retro fit. Until the likes of Barrat and Wimpy are forced to fit solar
systems to their new housing and for those with more than a pocket
handkerchief garden groudsource underfloor heating nothing much is going
to change.

However, it has since been developed (should that be "diverted"?) into
a tourist attraction with a green theme. Nice organic food, lots of
eco-friendly people, but far too dependent on the revenue from mass
tourism (itself hardly a green activity) to make a real and lasting
difference to society.

It rasies the profile of what can be done but these days most people
aren't capable of changing a tap washer let alone designing and installing
a solar heating system. They have money though and may be willing to part
with that fopr someone to come and do it for them, the brighter ones want
impartial advice on the variations that are out there. CAT may well be
able to fullfill that need.

--
Cheers
Dave.

On Mon, 28 Jul 2008 21:00:30 +0100, Bruce wrote:

I found it a disappointment. I had high hopes for it, and at first,
it seemed to be developing into an extremely useful resource.

I went there shortly after it started. At the time they were deeply
(in more ways than one) into pig manure. Unfortunately it was staffed
by people high on ecocentricity (and I suspect interesting plants) and
short on practical ability. They also didn't understand it rains in
Wales. The combination of a hot wet summer and complete lack of
practical ability (they held lots of meetings to reach consensus)
meant you could navigate the last 10 miles by sense of smell and
following the brown stream along the road.

Mary Fisher wrote:
"John Rumm" wrote in message
et...
Mary Fisher wrote:
"John Rumm" wrote in message
et...
Mary Fisher wrote:

I read a post from a bloke however who did install a solar thermal
system, where its only used to heat water. He said he noticed a big
drop in his bills, maybe as much as a third. It did cost a heck of a
lot to install though and that's when he still did a lot of the work
himself and got a grant. Plus he will have to stay put for 20 odd
years for it to repay itself and have been worth it.
Not true. But payback isn't an issue.
Says who?
Says me and all the people I know who have invested in such devices.
That being one of the problems really. Lack of any hard numbers, but
plenty of anecdotes and testimonials from people either selling the kit,
or from those seeking to justify their investment in it.

The same applies to the protagonists.

Perhaps, but I see no shortage of hard numbers from them (us).

Do you consider the payback time on everything you buy?
No, but for something like hot water production, then yes - it is a
significant factor. Probably secondary only to performance and
suitability.

But why not everything else you pay for?

For many things the payback is a more complex package of benefits and
returns. Ultimately though, if they return is not worth it, then why do it?

I don't expect a direct financial return from buying and running a car.
However it allows me to do my job and I get pleasure from driving it.

What did your Solartwin system cost including installation etc?

sigh.

We've been through this. Just over £2,000. We installed it ourselves.

I recall discussing it, I could not remember if you had said how much it
had cost though.

I presume it would be a fair bit more if it were installed as well. IIRC
us southerners with liquid chalk for water, also need to provide
softening for it as well (not that does not in itself have financial
paybacks - but it ups the capital costs a bit more)

Once solar thermal becomes economically worthwhile,

We think it is/has been already.

You mean it has saved you more than £2000 already, or you mean that it
was worth it for other reasons?

For something like pool heating, it is well worth doing already if you can
DIY.

POOL heating???

Now I know you're not thinking environmentally :-)

Well depends on how you look at it. If you want a heated pool, and solar
makes good environmental and financial sense then you may as well take
advantage of it. Not only that, saves petrol driving to a pool! ;-)


--
Cheers,

John.

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On Sun, 27 Jul 2008 20:31:45 +0100, "Mary Fisher"
wrote:

Also, caravan fridges are often adsorption or peltier mechanism

And usually can be run of gas as well as electricity.

Less so these days. The Peltiers can't.

Even though a Peltier is generally thought of as inefficient, it's
better (and much cheaper) than an electrically-heated gas fridge, so
Peltiers are coming to dominate.

R D S wrote:
I have been thinking about getting a solar panel to keep a fridge runnning
and keep a battery charged while camping.
Has anyone any experience/opinions?

Also with energy prices being the way they are has anyone gone further than
this and installed solar in the home? Likewise with wind, a local electrical
supplier reckoned he could get me a 2kw turbine for approx £1500. At one
point I would have thought alternative power was prohibitively expensive but
now it looks as though it may sense.


Neither wind nor solar make any real economic sense in a domestic
situation in the UK..

R D S wrote:
"John" wrote in message
...
Installing any alternative energy gadgets doesn't just give a financial
return (which isn't the reason most people do it anyway), it makes one
aware
of helping the environment in other ways - by not squandering our
resources.
Would be interesting to know the total costs for making a solar panel
not just for its useful life but from start to scrapping, as well as
how they are made and if that's good for the environment?

John

Well you could same about power stations.

And for the pro nuclear brigade apparently it is going to cost about £76
billion to decomission all the old ones.

the cots of digging up all the concrete bases for the 100,000 windmills
that will be needed to replace them, will nbe even greater when they
find the *******s don't work..


Anyway, it costs about 6 billion to construct AND decommsion a 3GW sized
nuclear reactor, so your number are a bit out.


There is never going to be energy production without envionmental impact.

Invisible Man wrote:
Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Sun, 27 Jul 2008 11:49:57 +0100, R D S wrote:

I have been thinking about getting a solar panel to keep a fridge
runnning and keep a battery charged while camping.

It'll have to be a *big* (expensive) photovoltaic panel to run a
fridge even under bright sunlight conditions. Battery top up is
practical against self discharge and light use.

Also with energy prices being the way they are has anyone gone
further than this and installed solar in the home? Likewise with
wind, a local electrical supplier reckoned he could get me a 2kw
turbine for approx £1500.

Does that include the control gear, grid connect, invertor, etc etc.
Bear in mind that even well sited turbines struggle to produce more
than 1/3 of their rated capacity over a year, so think of that 2kW as
more like 600W, if your lucky.

At one point I would have thought alternative power was prohibitively
expensive but now it looks as though it may sense.

£1500 buys 18750kWhr of mains lecky at 8p/unit.

18750 / 0.6 = 31250 hrs, 1300 days, 3.5 years assuming a good site
with wind strong enough (and not too strong) to have the turbine
generating it's rated output for at least some of the time. You'll
still be buying mains power when the wind doesn't blow as well, you
might be able to sell a bit to the grid but not much.

Recovery of capital takes a long time, but not paying utility
companies for their (mainly) fossil based energy should not be ignored.

Do not assume a wind turbine will run maintenance free forever.
I wonder how much fossil fuel is used making a turbine?
Will it need planning permission?
I believe solar panels might have a bit more going for them.
If only there were a cheap way of storing some of the heat we have today.

Try a well insulated hot water tank.

It wont be any more of a demented solution than anything else.

Eco energy has taken over from double glazing as the Next Big Con.

Invisible Man wrote:
Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Sun, 27 Jul 2008 13:41:59 +0100, Invisible Man wrote:

Do not assume a wind turbine will run maintenance free forever.
I wonder how much fossil fuel is used making a turbine?

Nothing runs maintenance free for ever and fossil fuels are used in
the manufacture/transport of everything as well.

Will it need planning permission?

Probably, at least one capable of producing any useful power.

I believe solar panels might have a bit more going for them.
If only there were a cheap way of storing some of the heat we have
today.

Heat bank or thermal store, ie a large tank of water heated by what
ever means to 80C.

Might have got cold by February. I believe I did hear somewhere they
were pumping heat into the ground and recovering is later

The only form of 'solar' energy that actually makes sense...

Mary Fisher wrote:
"John" wrote in message
news
At the moment with rising prices for utilities and fuel people are
stuck between a rock and a hard place. We might have to cut our
electric and gas consumption in the next few years

I think that's the way to go.

Do we NEED all the power we use?? (as opposed to WANT)


Yes, or at least something like 50% of it.

The 'sustainable' level is something like a person to every 10 acres of
good arable land.

We blew that about 1700...

At a population of 6 million. We now have 60 million.



Mary

Fran wrote:
R D S said...
Also with energy prices being the way they are has anyone gone further than
this and installed solar in the home?

Yes. At our last house (SE Wales) we had solar panels in the roof for
heating water, and they were fabulous. It didn't need to be hot; it just
needed to be sunny for a couple of hours. The water was piping hot and
we rarely had to supplement the panels with the immersion heater.

Installation was expensive, and it would probably have taken us 5 to 10
years to recoup our outlay. We moved before that happened, and the solar
panels were a major selling point.

If I had the money now I'd do it again.

DHW probably accounts for maybe 60 quid a year fuel costs. If the panels
cost more than £600, they were a waste of money.

Mary Fisher wrote:
"R D S" wrote in message
...
Maybe if energy prices go sky high a solar thermal system may become
an option for a lot of people. But you'd have to hope that the climate
isn't going into a cooling period and we start getting less sunshine,
and that it pays itself back a bit quicker.
Surely if we have a cooling period there will still be the same amount of
sunshine.

That's right. The temperature isn't all that important. when we connected
ours up the air temperature was 4C and we got a large cylinder full of water
at over 30C in a few hours.


You can get a large cylinder full of 30C water in a few miniutes at a
couple of shillings of electricity cost.

Mary