[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
During the war itself the US kit used American National standards,
previously known as United States Standard. Nothing inter-worked with
British kit. For some kit, such as the Sherman Firefly, this literally
meant one set of spanners to work on the (British) gun and another set
of wrenches to work on the US-built chassis and engine.
A situation that more or less persisted right up to british leyland
days.. I can remember AF spanners on the Chassis and whitworth or BSF on
the endgine, or something.

More likely a mix of Unified and Metric, if BL. BMC - different.
Most of the engines, etc BL used were designed before they were formed and
used Unified. It would make little sense to re-engineer for another thread.

--
*'ome is where you 'ang your @ *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

[Bruce[_4_]]

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:

In article ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
During the war itself the US kit used American National standards,
previously known as United States Standard. Nothing inter-worked with
British kit. For some kit, such as the Sherman Firefly, this literally
meant one set of spanners to work on the (British) gun and another set
of wrenches to work on the US-built chassis and engine.
A situation that more or less persisted right up to british leyland
days.. I can remember AF spanners on the Chassis and whitworth or BSF on
the endgine, or something.

More likely a mix of Unified and Metric, if BL. BMC - different.
Most of the engines, etc BL used were designed before they were formed and
used Unified. It would make little sense to re-engineer for another thread.


My father's 1970 Hillman Avenger needed two sets of spanners to work
on it. I cannot recall which two types they were, but the engine
needed one set and the rest of the car the other.

[The Natural Philosopher]

Rod wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Andy Dingley wrote:
On Fri, 4 Jul 2008 21:20:13 +0100, "dennis@home"
wrote:

The Hurricane won the battle of Britain as the spitfire didn't have
the fire power to bring down the bombers

BB period, Hurricane firepower ? Spitifire firepower?

Both of them had just the same eight .303 wing guns. The Hurricane IIb
did have twelve, but didn't show up until after the BoB. Both were
later re-armed with the 20mm Hispano cannon, but the Spitfire got these
first.

So, just another Dennisism...
I think he menas that there were abut 3 times as many hurricanes
available.

You might be right - but Dennis claimed there were 10 times as many and
phrased it in a way that seemed to say that the numerical superiority
was on top of individual aircraft firepower power superiority.

Well the whole issue of firewpwer was predicated on a completely false
set of assumptins that unravelled as soon as combat in te real sense
happened.

The thory was you atackecet at 800 yards with 8 machine guns, and that
wold be enough to take the buggers ouit. In fact it soon became clear
from 'enemy attacked and driven away eastwards' tat harmonising ti 200
yards or less, and concentrating firepower in certain areas - wing
roots, fuel tanks and the pilot, was the key.

And when the germans equipped with cannon, that one canon shell was
likely to do a lot more damage then 50 303 bullets.

There is some devastating footage of IIRC a Tempest doing ground attack
on lorries and so on with cannon fire. Things simply disintegrate when hit.

[Rod]

The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Rod wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Andy Dingley wrote:
On Fri, 4 Jul 2008 21:20:13 +0100, "dennis@home"
wrote:

The Hurricane won the battle of Britain as the spitfire didn't have
the fire power to bring down the bombers

BB period, Hurricane firepower ? Spitifire firepower?

Both of them had just the same eight .303 wing guns. The Hurricane IIb
did have twelve, but didn't show up until after the BoB. Both were
later re-armed with the 20mm Hispano cannon, but the Spitfire got these
first.

So, just another Dennisism...
I think he menas that there were abut 3 times as many hurricanes
available.

You might be right - but Dennis claimed there were 10 times as many
and phrased it in a way that seemed to say that the numerical
superiority was on top of individual aircraft firepower power
superiority.

Well the whole issue of firewpwer was predicated on a completely false
set of assumptins that unravelled as soon as combat in te real sense
happened.

The thory was you atackecet at 800 yards with 8 machine guns, and that
wold be enough to take the buggers ouit. In fact it soon became clear
from 'enemy attacked and driven away eastwards' tat harmonising ti 200
yards or less, and concentrating firepower in certain areas - wing
roots, fuel tanks and the pilot, was the key.

And when the germans equipped with cannon, that one canon shell was
likely to do a lot more damage then 50 303 bullets.

There is some devastating footage of IIRC a Tempest doing ground attack
on lorries and so on with cannon fire. Things simply disintegrate when hit.

I can be thankful that the Luftwaffe continued to use at least some
machine guns. My father was hit by a bullet from one of their guns, in
the chest, just above his heart.

We have the mangled pair of scissors that just happened to be in his
pocket at the time. This was the worst (maybe even the only) injury he
received in 67 ops over occupied territory, plus flying service in
India, Burma, etc. Had that been a canon shell... well, I might not have
been able to be thankful...

--
Rod

Hypothyroidism is a seriously debilitating condition with an insidious
onset.
Although common it frequently goes undiagnosed.
www.thyromind.info www.thyroiduk.org www.altsupportthyroid.org

[dennis@home]

"Rod" wrote in message
...
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Rod wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Andy Dingley wrote:
On Fri, 4 Jul 2008 21:20:13 +0100, "dennis@home"
wrote:

The Hurricane won the battle of Britain as the spitfire didn't have
the fire power to bring down the bombers

BB period, Hurricane firepower ? Spitifire firepower?

Both of them had just the same eight .303 wing guns. The Hurricane IIb
did have twelve, but didn't show up until after the BoB. Both were
later re-armed with the 20mm Hispano cannon, but the Spitfire got
these
first.

So, just another Dennisism...
I think he menas that there were abut 3 times as many hurricanes
available.

You might be right - but Dennis claimed there were 10 times as many and
phrased it in a way that seemed to say that the numerical superiority
was on top of individual aircraft firepower power superiority.

Well the whole issue of firewpwer was predicated on a completely false
set of assumptins that unravelled as soon as combat in te real sense
happened.

The thory was you atackecet at 800 yards with 8 machine guns, and that
wold be enough to take the buggers ouit. In fact it soon became clear
from 'enemy attacked and driven away eastwards' tat harmonising ti 200
yards or less, and concentrating firepower in certain areas - wing roots,
fuel tanks and the pilot, was the key.

And when the germans equipped with cannon, that one canon shell was
likely to do a lot more damage then 50 303 bullets.

There is some devastating footage of IIRC a Tempest doing ground attack
on lorries and so on with cannon fire. Things simply disintegrate when
hit.

I can be thankful that the Luftwaffe continued to use at least some
machine guns. My father was hit by a bullet from one of their guns, in the
chest, just above his heart.

We have the mangled pair of scissors that just happened to be in his
pocket at the time. This was the worst (maybe even the only) injury he
received in 67 ops over occupied territory, plus flying service in India,
Burma, etc. Had that been a canon shell... well, I might not have been
able to be thankful...


If it had been a cannon it probably wouldn't have hit him,
the machine gun bullet must have been pretty spent or they were extremely
good scissors.

[Rod]

dennis@home wrote:


"Rod" wrote in message
...
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Rod wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Andy Dingley wrote:
On Fri, 4 Jul 2008 21:20:13 +0100, "dennis@home"
wrote:

The Hurricane won the battle of Britain as the spitfire didn't
have the fire power to bring down the bombers

BB period, Hurricane firepower ? Spitifire firepower?

Both of them had just the same eight .303 wing guns. The Hurricane
IIb
did have twelve, but didn't show up until after the BoB. Both were
later re-armed with the 20mm Hispano cannon, but the Spitfire got
these
first.

So, just another Dennisism...
I think he menas that there were abut 3 times as many hurricanes
available.

You might be right - but Dennis claimed there were 10 times as many
and phrased it in a way that seemed to say that the numerical
superiority was on top of individual aircraft firepower power
superiority.

Well the whole issue of firewpwer was predicated on a completely
false set of assumptins that unravelled as soon as combat in te real
sense happened.

The thory was you atackecet at 800 yards with 8 machine guns, and
that wold be enough to take the buggers ouit. In fact it soon became
clear from 'enemy attacked and driven away eastwards' tat harmonising
ti 200 yards or less, and concentrating firepower in certain areas -
wing roots, fuel tanks and the pilot, was the key.

And when the germans equipped with cannon, that one canon shell was
likely to do a lot more damage then 50 303 bullets.

There is some devastating footage of IIRC a Tempest doing ground
attack on lorries and so on with cannon fire. Things simply
disintegrate when hit.

I can be thankful that the Luftwaffe continued to use at least some
machine guns. My father was hit by a bullet from one of their guns, in
the chest, just above his heart.

We have the mangled pair of scissors that just happened to be in his
pocket at the time. This was the worst (maybe even the only) injury he
received in 67 ops over occupied territory, plus flying service in
India, Burma, etc. Had that been a canon shell... well, I might not
have been able to be thankful...


If it had been a cannon it probably wouldn't have hit him,
the machine gun bullet must have been pretty spent or they were
extremely good scissors.


They certainly looked to have been good quality, solid Sheffield steel.
Sort of kitchen scissor size. (Why he had them with him, I have no
idea.) The two parts were completely separated. Each curled round into a
near-semi-circle. Some parts discoloured and lost a bit of chrome.

It seems entirely likly that the bullet had passed through some part of
the structure to get to him - possibly a Wellington or, more likely, a
Lancaster. Probably wireless operator's position.

--
Rod

Hypothyroidism is a seriously debilitating condition with an insidious
onset.
Although common it frequently goes undiagnosed.
www.thyromind.info www.thyroiduk.org www.altsupportthyroid.org

[Andy Champ]

Rod wrote:
I can be thankful that the Luftwaffe continued to use at least some
machine guns. My father was hit by a bullet from one of their guns, in
the chest, just above his heart.

We have the mangled pair of scissors that just happened to be in his
pocket at the time. This was the worst (maybe even the only) injury he
received in 67 ops over occupied territory, plus flying service in
India, Burma, etc. Had that been a canon shell... well, I might not have
been able to be thankful...


My father still has the .300 (ish) calibre bullet his mechanic found in
his seat after a mission over Korea in the 50s.

Though of course it may have been ground fire.

Andy

[dennis@home]

"Rod" wrote in message
...
dennis@home wrote:


"Rod" wrote in message
...
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Rod wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Andy Dingley wrote:
On Fri, 4 Jul 2008 21:20:13 +0100, "dennis@home"
wrote:

The Hurricane won the battle of Britain as the spitfire didn't have
the fire power to bring down the bombers

BB period, Hurricane firepower ? Spitifire firepower?

Both of them had just the same eight .303 wing guns. The Hurricane
IIb
did have twelve, but didn't show up until after the BoB. Both were
later re-armed with the 20mm Hispano cannon, but the Spitfire got
these
first.

So, just another Dennisism...
I think he menas that there were abut 3 times as many hurricanes
available.

You might be right - but Dennis claimed there were 10 times as many
and phrased it in a way that seemed to say that the numerical
superiority was on top of individual aircraft firepower power
superiority.

Well the whole issue of firewpwer was predicated on a completely false
set of assumptins that unravelled as soon as combat in te real sense
happened.

The thory was you atackecet at 800 yards with 8 machine guns, and that
wold be enough to take the buggers ouit. In fact it soon became clear
from 'enemy attacked and driven away eastwards' tat harmonising ti 200
yards or less, and concentrating firepower in certain areas - wing
roots, fuel tanks and the pilot, was the key.

And when the germans equipped with cannon, that one canon shell was
likely to do a lot more damage then 50 303 bullets.

There is some devastating footage of IIRC a Tempest doing ground attack
on lorries and so on with cannon fire. Things simply disintegrate when
hit.

I can be thankful that the Luftwaffe continued to use at least some
machine guns. My father was hit by a bullet from one of their guns, in
the chest, just above his heart.

We have the mangled pair of scissors that just happened to be in his
pocket at the time. This was the worst (maybe even the only) injury he
received in 67 ops over occupied territory, plus flying service in
India, Burma, etc. Had that been a canon shell... well, I might not have
been able to be thankful...


If it had been a cannon it probably wouldn't have hit him,
the machine gun bullet must have been pretty spent or they were extremely
good scissors.


They certainly looked to have been good quality, solid Sheffield steel.
Sort of kitchen scissor size. (Why he had them with him, I have no idea.)
The two parts were completely separated. Each curled round into a
near-semi-circle. Some parts discoloured and lost a bit of chrome.

It seems entirely likly that the bullet had passed through some part of
the structure to get to him - possibly a Wellington or, more likely, a
Lancaster. Probably wireless operator's position.

Probably just an old soldiers tale.

[Roger]

The message
from Bruce contains these words:

More likely a mix of Unified and Metric, if BL. BMC - different.
Most of the engines, etc BL used were designed before they were formed and
used Unified. It would make little sense to re-engineer for another thread.


My father's 1970 Hillman Avenger needed two sets of spanners to work
on it. I cannot recall which two types they were, but the engine
needed one set and the rest of the car the other.

My half inch socket set was bought in 1964 along with a set of open
ended spanners. IIRC the socket set alone cost £12 which was a
horrendous price in those days. Both sets covered AF and Whitworth. I
don't think I bought a single metric spanner in the next 10 years.

I missed the earlier part of this thread and Dennis lives in my killfile
anyway but on the Hurricane/Spitfire /Battle of Britain controversy it
is my understanding that the Spitfires were targeted at the fighter
escorts as they were faster and more manoeuvrable than the Hurricanes
and the Hurricanes were targeted at the bombers.

--
Roger Chapman

[Rod]

dennis@home wrote:


"Rod" wrote in message
...
dennis@home wrote:


"Rod" wrote in message
...
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Rod wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Andy Dingley wrote:
On Fri, 4 Jul 2008 21:20:13 +0100, "dennis@home"
wrote:

The Hurricane won the battle of Britain as the spitfire didn't
have the fire power to bring down the bombers

BB period, Hurricane firepower ? Spitifire firepower?

Both of them had just the same eight .303 wing guns. The
Hurricane IIb
did have twelve, but didn't show up until after the BoB. Both were
later re-armed with the 20mm Hispano cannon, but the Spitfire
got these
first.

So, just another Dennisism...
I think he menas that there were abut 3 times as many hurricanes
available.

You might be right - but Dennis claimed there were 10 times as
many and phrased it in a way that seemed to say that the numerical
superiority was on top of individual aircraft firepower power
superiority.

Well the whole issue of firewpwer was predicated on a completely
false set of assumptins that unravelled as soon as combat in te
real sense happened.

The thory was you atackecet at 800 yards with 8 machine guns, and
that wold be enough to take the buggers ouit. In fact it soon
became clear from 'enemy attacked and driven away eastwards' tat
harmonising ti 200 yards or less, and concentrating firepower in
certain areas - wing roots, fuel tanks and the pilot, was the key.

And when the germans equipped with cannon, that one canon shell was
likely to do a lot more damage then 50 303 bullets.

There is some devastating footage of IIRC a Tempest doing ground
attack on lorries and so on with cannon fire. Things simply
disintegrate when hit.

I can be thankful that the Luftwaffe continued to use at least some
machine guns. My father was hit by a bullet from one of their guns,
in the chest, just above his heart.

We have the mangled pair of scissors that just happened to be in his
pocket at the time. This was the worst (maybe even the only) injury
he received in 67 ops over occupied territory, plus flying service
in India, Burma, etc. Had that been a canon shell... well, I might
not have been able to be thankful...


If it had been a cannon it probably wouldn't have hit him,
the machine gun bullet must have been pretty spent or they were
extremely good scissors.


They certainly looked to have been good quality, solid Sheffield
steel. Sort of kitchen scissor size. (Why he had them with him, I have
no idea.) The two parts were completely separated. Each curled round
into a near-semi-circle. Some parts discoloured and lost a bit of chrome.

It seems entirely likly that the bullet had passed through some part
of the structure to get to him - possibly a Wellington or, more
likely, a Lancaster. Probably wireless operator's position.

Probably just an old soldiers tale.



Which bit?

--
Rod

Hypothyroidism is a seriously debilitating condition with an insidious
onset.
Although common it frequently goes undiagnosed.
www.thyromind.info www.thyroiduk.org www.altsupportthyroid.org

[dennis@home]

"Rod" wrote in message
...
dennis@home wrote:


"Rod" wrote in message
...
dennis@home wrote:


"Rod" wrote in message
...
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Rod wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Andy Dingley wrote:
On Fri, 4 Jul 2008 21:20:13 +0100, "dennis@home"
wrote:

The Hurricane won the battle of Britain as the spitfire didn't
have the fire power to bring down the bombers

BB period, Hurricane firepower ? Spitifire firepower?

Both of them had just the same eight .303 wing guns. The Hurricane
IIb
did have twelve, but didn't show up until after the BoB. Both
were
later re-armed with the 20mm Hispano cannon, but the Spitfire got
these
first.

So, just another Dennisism...
I think he menas that there were abut 3 times as many hurricanes
available.

You might be right - but Dennis claimed there were 10 times as many
and phrased it in a way that seemed to say that the numerical
superiority was on top of individual aircraft firepower power
superiority.

Well the whole issue of firewpwer was predicated on a completely
false set of assumptins that unravelled as soon as combat in te real
sense happened.

The thory was you atackecet at 800 yards with 8 machine guns, and
that wold be enough to take the buggers ouit. In fact it soon became
clear from 'enemy attacked and driven away eastwards' tat harmonising
ti 200 yards or less, and concentrating firepower in certain areas -
wing roots, fuel tanks and the pilot, was the key.

And when the germans equipped with cannon, that one canon shell was
likely to do a lot more damage then 50 303 bullets.

There is some devastating footage of IIRC a Tempest doing ground
attack on lorries and so on with cannon fire. Things simply
disintegrate when hit.

I can be thankful that the Luftwaffe continued to use at least some
machine guns. My father was hit by a bullet from one of their guns, in
the chest, just above his heart.

We have the mangled pair of scissors that just happened to be in his
pocket at the time. This was the worst (maybe even the only) injury he
received in 67 ops over occupied territory, plus flying service in
India, Burma, etc. Had that been a canon shell... well, I might not
have been able to be thankful...


If it had been a cannon it probably wouldn't have hit him,
the machine gun bullet must have been pretty spent or they were
extremely good scissors.


They certainly looked to have been good quality, solid Sheffield steel.
Sort of kitchen scissor size. (Why he had them with him, I have no
idea.) The two parts were completely separated. Each curled round into a
near-semi-circle. Some parts discoloured and lost a bit of chrome.

It seems entirely likly that the bullet had passed through some part of
the structure to get to him - possibly a Wellington or, more likely, a
Lancaster. Probably wireless operator's position.

Probably just an old soldiers tale.



Which bit?

All of it.

[Rod]

dennis@home wrote:


"Rod" wrote in message
...
dennis@home wrote:


"Rod" wrote in message
...
dennis@home wrote:


"Rod" wrote in message
...
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Rod wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Andy Dingley wrote:
On Fri, 4 Jul 2008 21:20:13 +0100, "dennis@home"
wrote:

The Hurricane won the battle of Britain as the spitfire
didn't have the fire power to bring down the bombers

BB period, Hurricane firepower ? Spitifire firepower?

Both of them had just the same eight .303 wing guns. The
Hurricane IIb
did have twelve, but didn't show up until after the BoB. Both
were
later re-armed with the 20mm Hispano cannon, but the Spitfire
got these
first.

So, just another Dennisism...
I think he menas that there were abut 3 times as many
hurricanes available.

You might be right - but Dennis claimed there were 10 times as
many and phrased it in a way that seemed to say that the
numerical superiority was on top of individual aircraft
firepower power superiority.

Well the whole issue of firewpwer was predicated on a completely
false set of assumptins that unravelled as soon as combat in te
real sense happened.

The thory was you atackecet at 800 yards with 8 machine guns, and
that wold be enough to take the buggers ouit. In fact it soon
became clear from 'enemy attacked and driven away eastwards' tat
harmonising ti 200 yards or less, and concentrating firepower in
certain areas - wing roots, fuel tanks and the pilot, was the key.

And when the germans equipped with cannon, that one canon shell
was likely to do a lot more damage then 50 303 bullets.

There is some devastating footage of IIRC a Tempest doing ground
attack on lorries and so on with cannon fire. Things simply
disintegrate when hit.

I can be thankful that the Luftwaffe continued to use at least
some machine guns. My father was hit by a bullet from one of their
guns, in the chest, just above his heart.

We have the mangled pair of scissors that just happened to be in
his pocket at the time. This was the worst (maybe even the only)
injury he received in 67 ops over occupied territory, plus flying
service in India, Burma, etc. Had that been a canon shell... well,
I might not have been able to be thankful...


If it had been a cannon it probably wouldn't have hit him,
the machine gun bullet must have been pretty spent or they were
extremely good scissors.


They certainly looked to have been good quality, solid Sheffield
steel. Sort of kitchen scissor size. (Why he had them with him, I
have no idea.) The two parts were completely separated. Each curled
round into a near-semi-circle. Some parts discoloured and lost a bit
of chrome.

It seems entirely likly that the bullet had passed through some part
of the structure to get to him - possibly a Wellington or, more
likely, a Lancaster. Probably wireless operator's position.

Probably just an old soldiers tale.



Which bit?

All of it.




I have seen the scissors mahny times.
I have talked to the person it happened to, his wife, his sister.
Do you think they all colluded in the story?
I can think of no other explanation for the scissors looking as they do.

--
Rod

Hypothyroidism is a seriously debilitating condition with an insidious
onset.
Although common it frequently goes undiagnosed.
www.thyromind.info www.thyroiduk.org www.altsupportthyroid.org

[Dan Smithers[_2_]]

1501 wrote:
On 2 Jul, 21:45, Andy Champ wrote:

This interchangeability is fortunate, since BSW is considered
obsolete and is approaching extinction (Britain having gone metric),

Yet the tooling remains readily available and, according to the
supplier, will continue to be available for the foreseeable future.


I was pleased to see that modern Meccano still uses a 3/32 Whit thread.
even if it is made in France. It's all compatible with my old stuff from
the 70's and the even older collections that I've picked up.

They've gone back to square nuts (shame) and put hex sockets for allen
keys in the head which tear out as soon as you try to tighten them. Hmmm
perhaps they've mis-applied the term "cheesehead".

[Andy Dingley]

On 8 Jul, 09:07, "Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:

More likely a mix of Unified and Metric, if BL.

Longer-lived vehicles used 3 thread standards (and of course BA too).
UNF & Metric were obvious and needed spanners, but coarse threads into
cast iron could remain as Whit for a very long time, although not
often needing to be worked on at the garage-mechanic level.

[The Natural Philosopher]

Roger wrote:
The message
from Bruce contains these words:

More likely a mix of Unified and Metric, if BL. BMC - different.
Most of the engines, etc BL used were designed before they were formed and
used Unified. It would make little sense to re-engineer for another thread.


My father's 1970 Hillman Avenger needed two sets of spanners to work
on it. I cannot recall which two types they were, but the engine
needed one set and the rest of the car the other.

My half inch socket set was bought in 1964 along with a set of open
ended spanners. IIRC the socket set alone cost £12 which was a
horrendous price in those days. Both sets covered AF and Whitworth. I
don't think I bought a single metric spanner in the next 10 years.

I missed the earlier part of this thread and Dennis lives in my killfile
anyway but on the Hurricane/Spitfire /Battle of Britain controversy it
is my understanding that the Spitfires were targeted at the fighter
escorts as they were faster and more manoeuvrable than the Hurricanes
and the Hurricanes were targeted at the bombers.

That was in general true, but a hurricane by virtue of its wing area
could out turn a ME109, and conversely the ME109 was much faster..the
Spitfire reduced the differential, but the main advantage the RAF had,
was its radar and the fact that the fight was over home soil. The ME's
were always over hostile ground so a loss of a plane meant the the
effective loss of a pilot, and their ability to stay in escort duty was
marginal at best.


A situation which reversed in the latter parts of the war, until the
longer range Mustangs Thunderbolts and Lightnings arrived, and the large
4 engined bombers able to carry decent defensive armament were
available. Germany never had any 4 engined bombers AFAICR. Their
response was the massive and highly effective deployment of flak guns.

[The Natural Philosopher]

Rod wrote:
dennis@home wrote:


"Rod" wrote in message
...
dennis@home wrote:


"Rod" wrote in message
...
dennis@home wrote:


"Rod" wrote in message
...
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Rod wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Andy Dingley wrote:
On Fri, 4 Jul 2008 21:20:13 +0100, "dennis@home"
wrote:

The Hurricane won the battle of Britain as the spitfire
didn't have the fire power to bring down the bombers

BB period, Hurricane firepower ? Spitifire firepower?

Both of them had just the same eight .303 wing guns. The
Hurricane IIb
did have twelve, but didn't show up until after the BoB.
Both were
later re-armed with the 20mm Hispano cannon, but the Spitfire
got these
first.

So, just another Dennisism...
I think he menas that there were abut 3 times as many
hurricanes available.

You might be right - but Dennis claimed there were 10 times as
many and phrased it in a way that seemed to say that the
numerical superiority was on top of individual aircraft
firepower power superiority.

Well the whole issue of firewpwer was predicated on a completely
false set of assumptins that unravelled as soon as combat in te
real sense happened.

The thory was you atackecet at 800 yards with 8 machine guns,
and that wold be enough to take the buggers ouit. In fact it
soon became clear from 'enemy attacked and driven away
eastwards' tat harmonising ti 200 yards or less, and
concentrating firepower in certain areas - wing roots, fuel
tanks and the pilot, was the key.

And when the germans equipped with cannon, that one canon shell
was likely to do a lot more damage then 50 303 bullets.

There is some devastating footage of IIRC a Tempest doing ground
attack on lorries and so on with cannon fire. Things simply
disintegrate when hit.

I can be thankful that the Luftwaffe continued to use at least
some machine guns. My father was hit by a bullet from one of
their guns, in the chest, just above his heart.

We have the mangled pair of scissors that just happened to be in
his pocket at the time. This was the worst (maybe even the only)
injury he received in 67 ops over occupied territory, plus flying
service in India, Burma, etc. Had that been a canon shell...
well, I might not have been able to be thankful...


If it had been a cannon it probably wouldn't have hit him,
the machine gun bullet must have been pretty spent or they were
extremely good scissors.


They certainly looked to have been good quality, solid Sheffield
steel. Sort of kitchen scissor size. (Why he had them with him, I
have no idea.) The two parts were completely separated. Each curled
round into a near-semi-circle. Some parts discoloured and lost a
bit of chrome.

It seems entirely likly that the bullet had passed through some
part of the structure to get to him - possibly a Wellington or,
more likely, a Lancaster. Probably wireless operator's position.

Probably just an old soldiers tale.



Which bit?

All of it.




I have seen the scissors mahny times.
I have talked to the person it happened to, his wife, his sister.
Do you think they all colluded in the story?
I can think of no other explanation for the scissors looking as they do.

Oh, they were most cetrainly hit by something, but a full velocity 303
round would have punched them out the otherside of his body. Almost
certainly a ricochet or piece of generic shrapnel. Not quite sure, but
most pilot armour plating was at least 1/4" steel plate.

[Grimly Curmudgeon]

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember The Natural Philosopher
saying something like:

Germany never had any 4 engined bombers AFAICR.

Because of Hitler's decree that 4-engined bombers wouldn't be needed as
the war would be so short. There was no shortage of heavy bomber
designs, but they were killed at birth.

They did have the Kondor, but it was mainly used for long-range convoy
surveillance in the N.Atlantic, and very effective it was, too. It could
carry some bombload, but not enough and the number of Kondors was fairly
small.
--
Dave
GS850x2 XS650 SE6a

"It's a moron working with power tools.
How much more suspenseful can you get?"
- House

[Grimly Curmudgeon]

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember "dennis@home"
saying something like:

of bent scissors as personal armour

It seems entirely likly that the bullet had passed through some part of
the structure to get to him - possibly a Wellington or, more likely, a
Lancaster. Probably wireless operator's position.

Probably just an old soldiers tale.



Which bit?

All of it.

I don't see why you would disbelieve it. Given the millions of bullets
flying around, there were some near-miraculous escapes from death. Of
course, a relative of Uri Geller might have been sitting in the seat
next to Rod's father - that makes much more sense.
--
Dave
GS850x2 XS650 SE6a

"It's a moron working with power tools.
How much more suspenseful can you get?"
- House

[Andy Dingley]

On 9 Jul, 13:48, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Germany never had any 4 engined bombers AFAICR.

They had several, albeit not widely used. This was largely because
they had France as an operational base and far shorter ranges to
contend with. The only majorly significant (in impact) one was the
Condor, which being used for naval aviation did require range and
endurance.

[Rod]

Grimly Curmudgeon wrote:
We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember "dennis@home"
saying something like:

of bent scissors as personal armour

It seems entirely likly that the bullet had passed through some part of
the structure to get to him - possibly a Wellington or, more likely, a
Lancaster. Probably wireless operator's position.
Probably just an old soldiers tale.



Which bit?
All of it.

I don't see why you would disbelieve it. Given the millions of bullets
flying around, there were some near-miraculous escapes from death. Of
course, a relative of Uri Geller might have been sitting in the seat
next to Rod's father - that makes much more sense.

The most amazing thing. This is TRUE. I was on a ship in the channel and
saw that Uri Geller was there too. A little later there was a total
eclipse. That guy is amazing.

--
Rod

Hypothyroidism is a seriously debilitating condition with an insidious
onset.
Although common it frequently goes undiagnosed.
www.thyromind.info www.thyroiduk.org www.altsupportthyroid.org

[Grimly Curmudgeon]

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember Rod saying
something like:

The most amazing thing. This is TRUE. I was on a ship in the channel and
saw that Uri Geller was there too. A little later there was a total
eclipse. That guy is amazing.

Uncanny.
Uri Geller was on the telly when I found out a mate of mine was bent.
Co-incidence? I think not.
--
Dave
GS850x2 XS650 SE6a

"It's a moron working with power tools.
How much more suspenseful can you get?"
- House

[Rod]

Grimly Curmudgeon wrote:
We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember Rod saying
something like:

The most amazing thing. This is TRUE. I was on a ship in the channel and
saw that Uri Geller was there too. A little later there was a total
eclipse. That guy is amazing.

Uncanny.
Uri Geller was on the telly when I found out a mate of mine was bent.
Co-incidence? I think not.

What? Caught spooning with a bloke?

--
Rod

Hypothyroidism is a seriously debilitating condition with an insidious
onset.
Although common it frequently goes undiagnosed.
www.thyromind.info www.thyroiduk.org www.altsupportthyroid.org

[dennis@home]

"Rod" wrote in message
...



I have seen the scissors mahny times.
I have talked to the person it happened to, his wife, his sister.
Do you think they all colluded in the story?
I can think of no other explanation for the scissors looking as they do.

Why would they have to collude?
All it takes is for one person to make the claim.

[Grimly Curmudgeon]

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember Rod saying
something like:

Uncanny.
Uri Geller was on the telly when I found out a mate of mine was bent.
Co-incidence? I think not.

What? Caught spooning with a bloke?

I had to watch it, he was quite handy.
--
Dave
GS850x2 XS650 SE6a

"It's a moron working with power tools.
How much more suspenseful can you get?"
- House

[Bob Mannix]

"Rod" wrote in message
...
Grimly Curmudgeon wrote:
We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember "dennis@home"
saying something like:

of bent scissors as personal armour

It seems entirely likly that the bullet had passed through some part
of the structure to get to him - possibly a Wellington or, more
likely, a Lancaster. Probably wireless operator's position.
Probably just an old soldiers tale.



Which bit?
All of it.

I don't see why you would disbelieve it. Given the millions of bullets
flying around, there were some near-miraculous escapes from death. Of
course, a relative of Uri Geller might have been sitting in the seat
next to Rod's father - that makes much more sense.

The most amazing thing. This is TRUE. I was on a ship in the channel and
saw that Uri Geller was there too. A little later there was a total
eclipse. That guy is amazing.

--

Even more spooky - that guy has always been somewhere *at the same time* as
all recent eclipses. Eeek!


--
Bob Mannix
(anti-spam is as easy as 1-2-3 - not)

[Rod]

Bob Mannix wrote:
"Rod" wrote in message
...
Grimly Curmudgeon wrote:
We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember "dennis@home"
saying something like:

of bent scissors as personal armour

It seems entirely likly that the bullet had passed through some part
of the structure to get to him - possibly a Wellington or, more
likely, a Lancaster. Probably wireless operator's position.
Probably just an old soldiers tale.



Which bit?
All of it.
I don't see why you would disbelieve it. Given the millions of bullets
flying around, there were some near-miraculous escapes from death. Of
course, a relative of Uri Geller might have been sitting in the seat
next to Rod's father - that makes much more sense.
The most amazing thing. This is TRUE. I was on a ship in the channel and
saw that Uri Geller was there too. A little later there was a total
eclipse. That guy is amazing.

--

Even more spooky - that guy has always been somewhere *at the same time* as
all recent eclipses. Eeek!


Even more more spooky if he suddenly wasn't anywhere at the same time as
eclipses. :-)

--
Rod

Hypothyroidism is a seriously debilitating condition with an insidious
onset.
Although common it frequently goes undiagnosed.
www.thyromind.info www.thyroiduk.org www.altsupportthyroid.org