On 2008-05-29 22:54:28 +0100, "The Medway Handyman"
said:



Andy Hall wrote:
On 2008-05-29 22:25:01 +0100, "The Medway Handyman"
said:

Wait a wait? He would still have been in the same 'no wages'
position through no fault of his own.


There's the problem. Thinking in terms of 'wages' rather than
revenue or more importanly, margin.

I do see what you are saying, but in this instance Alan would have been
without revenue/wages for 2 days and made no margin.

Exactly. The point is that revenue and margin are the metrics for a
business, whereas wages are for hourly paid employees.

If one thinks of each job in terms of margin, because that's what runs
the business and is tha basis of everything else, then the thinking
will extend to finding ways to increase margin on a job where one means
has failed (i.e. work not possible because of defective materials.
Ofer to fix the problem for the customer but make sure that there is
some margin recovery involved - in short charge them for the project
management.

Tanner-'op wrote:


You seem to have a problem with the self employed tradesman - where
you bitten by one as a child?

As an apprenticed trademan of some 40 years experience, many of
those dealing with the self employed, gerally no - but with some
*YES*.

Can we have that again in English please Mr 'Trademan'? It doesn't
'gerally' make any sense at all.

Try putting brain into gear and read it again my handyman - you will
get it.

OK, lets give it a try;

I asked a simple, understandable question; "You seem to have a problem with
the self employed tradesman - where you bitten by one as a child"?

You replied;

"As an apprenticed trademan of some 40 years experience, many of those
dealing with the self employed, gerally no - but with some *YES*".

Are you saying you were actually bitten by some trademen or tradesmen? Or
'gerally' bitten? I assume being 'gerally' bitten is worse than being
simply bitten?


SNIP
And what would these handyman qualifications be oh wise one? I must
have missed them during the 2 months of research I did before
starting up. There are no qualifications as you well know.

2 months of research? As I have previously said - you lack
experience.

A prime example of your cheap attempts to miss read posts to support your
crap arguments. I've been doing DIY for 30+ years, for myself, friends,
neighbours, relatives. I spent 2 months off & on researching the business
concept of running a handyman business.

Are you of the opinion that *you* can *force* the client to buy
*dear*, knowing full well that *dear* is not always the best quality
but a 'rip-off'?

You can advise the client based on your knowledge & experience.

That's not what you implied is it - and what experience have you had?
2 months research into the viability of a franchise.

First of all, I didn't imply any such thing, somebody else made that point,
once again you haven't read the posts. Secondly I'm not part of any
franchise, as I pointed out, but you haven't read that post properly either.

A bit patronising that from a mere handyman.

A bit patronising calling me a mere handyman.

Well that's how you advertise yourself *The* *Medway* *Handyman*
isn't - so that's what you are, a mere handyman. Your getting a
guilt complex now - so can we expect a change of title?

'Mere' is the patronising bit. I run a hugely successful business, more so
than you could ever dream of.

Errm - that was epoxy not silicone. Please read the posts properly.

Quite correct oh perfect one - but my original statement still stands
and if you agree with that repair, then your really are crap as a
handyman.

So, you are suggesting that a repair to a cosmetic fault, with the clients
agreement, using a material far stronger than the material the bath is made
of is wrong?

SNIP

The question is rhetorical - he had to wait a week for replacements
for damaged parts didn't he?

Yes WITHOUT WAGES!

Please read Alan's resonse to you - he had other works there - so you
need some practice on how to "read a post properly". LOL

And knowing very well how plumbers price, (presuming he is a
plumber) then all that would have happened here is a little less
profit margin. ;-)

He is a handyman, not a plumber. Please read the posts properly.

He does not say that - if he does, then point out the quote in the OP
- so you need some further practice in post reading oh imperfect one.
ROTFLMAO

If you were a long standing member of this group, you would have read Albans
post from day one & realised who & what he was. Instead you chose to slag
everyone off.

A 5 year apprenticeship, 10 years on the tools and over 20 years, a
manager on multi-trade building maintenance contracts on both public
and private buildings of over .5 million pounds each - until I took
early retirement - a bit more experience than two months research of
a franchise Dave.

Oh a clerk.

I must be doing things badly, that's why I'm the only Trading
Standards accredited handyman in the area, run an extremely
profitable business & am currently booked until the first week in
July.

Well what else could you say?

Whish part to you not believe? Want to see my books/diary?

As you say *A* *HANDYMAN* a term that you objected to previously -
tut, tut.
We all lack experience in some areas, that's why the wise amongst us
ask questions.

But a Abe Lincoln once said:

It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to open
one's mouth and remove all doubt.

Actually that was Voltaire. Your general level of ignorance astounds me.


No, 40 years ago I was taught to think and the correct way to do
things and NOT to demand extortionate deposits

Clearly you have never learned to think.


It seems you are deliberately miss reading or miss quoting posts
simply to cause trouble. I'm beginning to think we have a new troll.

How can I be deliberately misreading your posts? you wrote them
along with their nuances.

With regards to calling me a 'troll' - then that tells me that a lot
of what I have posted has been too near the truth for you, especially
as I don't consider you the best handyman on the block - you have an
over-inflated ego methinks.

I rather think that members of this group will view your posts in general &
realise that all you have ever done is slag people off. Try making a
positive contribution if you want some credibility. Troll.

By the way, has the world finished copying the contentents of your
web-site yet - or have you successfully sued anyone for plagiarism of
"your" words?

Its happened three times, which is rather flattering, albeit annoying. The
first guy has changed his site, the second one rang to apologise, we met up
for a coffee & are friends, and the last one was in the USA.

Something you will never have to worry about, never having had an original
thought.


--
Dave - The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk

The Medway Handyman wrote:

A.Lee wrote:
I've wrote previously about poor quality bathrooms from B+Q.
BIG SNIP

I've had the same sort of trouble with B&Q. Bits missing mainly.
The way I've sorted it is to develop a good relationship with a local
independant plumbing supplies/bathroom studio.

Yes, I know. I deal with a local plumbers myself mainly. They are not
the cheapest, but they are within 5 minutes walk from home, and keep a
lot of stuff in stock. We did get a bath suite from them before
Christmas at £100 less than Screwfix, so they are not always dearer, and
convenience means a lot more to me that a 20% price difference.

I point people toward them if they want things, but it is difficult with
some people who think B+Q and Homebase are 'REALLY GOOD'.

This chap I'm working for now needs a Saniflow fitting to conform to
Building Regs (the previous owner had fitted an 'en-suite' into the
spare bedroom, then ran the water waste directly into the rain water
downpipe). Anyway, the local Plumbers want £365 for the unit we require,
Screwfix do it at £360, but he trusts Screwfix more "as they deliver
next day", so he's getting it from Screwfix, despite my attempts to get
him to buy it locally.
Alan.

--
To reply by e-mail, change the ' + ' to 'plus'.

In article 483f0c75@qaanaaq,
Andy Hall wrote:
All of which can be avoided if the tradesman supplies and fits......
Then everybody knows exactly where they are and there is no argument.

You certainly don't know 'where you are' since he could be marking up the
parts over the cost to him. If you pay direct for the suite at least
you'll know what he's charging for labour.

--
*Black holes are where God divided by zero *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"The Medway Handyman" wrote in message
m...


Tanner-'op wrote:


A bit patronising that from a mere handyman.

A bit patronising calling me a mere handyman.

Plus that will annoy Dave's Wiltshire counterpart.

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article 483f0c75@qaanaaq,
Andy Hall wrote:
All of which can be avoided if the tradesman supplies and fits......
Then everybody knows exactly where they are and there is no argument.

You certainly don't know 'where you are' since he could be marking up the
parts over the cost to him. If you pay direct for the suite at least
you'll know what he's charging for labour.

I would fully expect him to place a markup on the parts. There has to be
some reward for the advancing of credit, the time spent on procurement
and ordering, and reward for the additional risk he is taking. Not only
that there is further opportunity for him to benefit from sound
management of his business by negotiating discounts on parts from
regular suppliers.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article 483f0c75@qaanaaq,
Andy Hall wrote:
All of which can be avoided if the tradesman supplies and fits......
Then everybody knows exactly where they are and there is no argument.

You certainly don't know 'where you are' since he could be marking up
the parts over the cost to him. If you pay direct for the suite at
least you'll know what he's charging for labour.

Dave,

If you run the business 'properly' then 'supply and fix' is the norm. If
you go for a meal in a restaurant, do you take your own, uncooked food in
and then ask the chef to cook it based on his hourly rate? If you did, it
would be you in the cooking pot!

And think of the profit aftermarket car component suppliers are making on
*every* part!

Lesson begineth:

In business, the 'tradesman' negotiates a cut-price rate with his suppliers
of around 10 - 40%, they will also arrange an extra discount for a prompt
settlement of the suppliers monthly invoice to the tradesman of around 5 -
10% but the tradesman will then pass supply the materials to the customer
at the 'full'price and possibly even adding a further 10 - 20% for
overheads.

Now, if the tradesman wants to look good in the customers eyes (or just to
get the job), he now has enough leeway to offer a 'discount' to the customer
and still make a profit - without having to cut his labour charge - and
that's how the system works and it certainly did in my last job.

Lesson endeth - patronising though it may sound.

By the way, going back to my analogy of your meal - if you have a meal in a
pub, the *profit* margin there is at least 60% on *every* meal and the same
goes for the top-notch restaurants!

Tanner-'op

Tanner-'op wrote:

Lesson begineth:

In business, the 'tradesman' negotiates a cut-price rate with his
suppliers of around 10 - 40%, they will also arrange an extra
discount for a prompt settlement of the suppliers monthly invoice to
the tradesman of around 5 - 10% but the tradesman will then pass
supply the materials to the customer at the 'full'price and possibly
even adding a further 10 - 20% for overheads.

Now, if the tradesman wants to look good in the customers eyes (or
just to get the job), he now has enough leeway to offer a 'discount'
to the customer and still make a profit - without having to cut his
labour charge - and that's how the system works and it certainly did
in my last job.
Lesson endeth - patronising though it may sound.

"Who'd have thought thirty year ago we'd all be sittin' here drinking
Chteau de Chasselas, eh? ".

Things have changed in the past 40 years. The public have access to
thousands of products via the internet, TV ads, press ads, the 300+ B&Q
stores, the 300 odd Homebase stores, 100+ Screwfix depots etc

None of these things excisted 40 years ago. You had to go to a builders
merchant & speak to a bloke in a brown coat & a flat cap & ask for "Fork
Handles".

The days of the 40% discount for the tradesman are, with a few exceptions
like Howdens by and large gone. The public can now buy as cheaply as a
tradesman. If you were in touch with the market you would realise that most
of the public prefer to choose & purchase their own bathrooms, kitchens,
lighting etc and then get someone in to fit it.


--
Dave - The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk

On 2008-05-30 12:14:47 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)"
said:

In article 483f0c75@qaanaaq,
Andy Hall wrote:
All of which can be avoided if the tradesman supplies and fits......
Then everybody knows exactly where they are and there is no argument.

You certainly don't know 'where you are' since he could be marking up the
parts over the cost to him.

He may well be.


If you pay direct for the suite at least
you'll know what he's charging for labour.

It really depends on the value to the customer of having the project
management and one place of responsibility.

Tanner-'op wrote:
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article 483f0c75@qaanaaq,
Andy Hall wrote:
All of which can be avoided if the tradesman supplies and fits......
Then everybody knows exactly where they are and there is no argument.
You certainly don't know 'where you are' since he could be marking up
the parts over the cost to him. If you pay direct for the suite at
least you'll know what he's charging for labour.

Dave,

If you run the business 'properly' then 'supply and fix' is the norm. If
you go for a meal in a restaurant, do you take your own, uncooked food in
and then ask the chef to cook it based on his hourly rate? If you did, it
would be you in the cooking pot!

And think of the profit aftermarket car component suppliers are making on
*every* part!

Lesson begineth:

In business, the 'tradesman' negotiates a cut-price rate with his suppliers
of around 10 - 40%, they will also arrange an extra discount for a prompt
settlement of the suppliers monthly invoice to the tradesman of around 5 -
10% but the tradesman will then pass supply the materials to the customer
at the 'full'price and possibly even adding a further 10 - 20% for
overheads.

Now, if the tradesman wants to look good in the customers eyes (or just to
get the job), he now has enough leeway to offer a 'discount' to the customer
and still make a profit - without having to cut his labour charge - and
that's how the system works and it certainly did in my last job.

Lesson endeth - patronising though it may sound.

By the way, going back to my analogy of your meal - if you have a meal in a
pub, the *profit* margin there is at least 60% on *every* meal and the same
goes for the top-notch restaurants!

Tanner-'op



This approach cannot be universal - for some things it makes sense, for
others not.

If I want a painting on my wall, I am not going to get a workman to
supply and fit. I might get a person to fit it (i.e. hang it on the
wall) and he might supply a hook and a wall plug. Indeed, it would be
unusual for the customer to supply the hook unless it was some unusual
fitting.

The first time I dealt with a serious building job, the contract
specified what mark up the builder could apply. (It was based on a
standard form of contract from RICS or some similar organisation.) And I
was happy for that to be applied. The approach of getting a cut-price
from your supplier, charge a full-price plus extra markup to the
customer would not be appreciated by me. (I accept that you would get a
reasonable prompt payment discount.) Especially now that it is so easy
for customers to see what the amrket prices are for many goods.

It is (maybe 'was' these days?) traditional in some fishing locations
for the kitchen to cook the fish caught by the punters. So 'fit only'
*can* apply even in catering.

--
Rod

Hypothyroidism is a seriously debilitating condition with an insidious
onset.
Although common it frequently goes undiagnosed.
www.thyromind.info www.thyroiduk.org www.altsupportthyroid.org

John Rumm wrote in message
...
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article 483f0c75@qaanaaq,
Andy Hall wrote:
All of which can be avoided if the tradesman supplies and fits......
Then everybody knows exactly where they are and there is no argument.

You certainly don't know 'where you are' since he could be marking up
the
parts over the cost to him. If you pay direct for the suite at least
you'll know what he's charging for labour.

I would fully expect him to place a markup on the parts. There has to be
some reward for the advancing of credit, the time spent on procurement
and ordering, and reward for the additional risk he is taking. Not only
that there is further opportunity for him to benefit from sound
management of his business by negotiating discounts on parts from
regular suppliers.

The mark-up is also a tradesman's insurance
If X that I have supplied and fitted fails I have to go back and replace
it for free.
If you have supplied X then I would expect payment to remove faulty item for
you, and then paying again to replace the replacement.


-

"The Medway Handyman" wrote in message
.. .


Tanner-'op wrote:

Lesson begineth:

In business, the 'tradesman' negotiates a cut-price rate with his
suppliers of around 10 - 40%, they will also arrange an extra
discount for a prompt settlement of the suppliers monthly invoice to
the tradesman of around 5 - 10% but the tradesman will then pass
supply the materials to the customer at the 'full'price and possibly
even adding a further 10 - 20% for overheads.

Now, if the tradesman wants to look good in the customers eyes (or
just to get the job), he now has enough leeway to offer a 'discount'
to the customer and still make a profit - without having to cut his
labour charge - and that's how the system works and it certainly did
in my last job.
Lesson endeth - patronising though it may sound.

"Who'd have thought thirty year ago we'd all be sittin' here drinking
Chteau de Chasselas, eh? ".

Things have changed in the past 40 years. The public have access to
thousands of products via the internet, TV ads, press ads, the 300+ B&Q
stores, the 300 odd Homebase stores, 100+ Screwfix depots etc

None of these things excisted 40 years ago. You had to go to a builders
merchant & speak to a bloke in a brown coat & a flat cap & ask for "Fork
Handles".

The days of the 40% discount for the tradesman are, with a few exceptions
like Howdens by and large gone. The public can now buy as cheaply as a
tradesman. If you were in touch with the market you would realise that
most of the public prefer to choose & purchase their own bathrooms,
kitchens, lighting etc and then get someone in to fit it.


--
Dave - The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk



This is true. The builder's merchants are small fry compared to the big
chains like B&Q, so it's a case of economy of scale with the quantities that
the chains can buy from the manufacturers, or indeed have custom
manufactured. The same applies with trade cash and carry depots for
catering. My wife can actually buy packs of Coca Cola cheaper in Tesco at
their retail price, than she can buy them from the cash and carry that's
supposed to be her trade rate supplier. I bought some electrical fittings in
B&Q tonight, and they were half the price of a 'proper' trade electrical
warehouse.

Arfa

In article ,
Tanner-'op wrote:
If you run the business 'properly' then 'supply and fix' is the norm.
If you go for a meal in a restaurant, do you take your own, uncooked
food in and then ask the chef to cook it based on his hourly rate? If
you did, it would be you in the cooking pot!

And think of the profit aftermarket car component suppliers are making
on *every* part!

Fine. You pay that if you want. It's a reason why I DIY. The supplier is
already making one profit - I don't expect to give a plumber his cut on
top. Plus the fact that I'd want to choose what is fitted - not just what
he finds easy.

--
*You are validating my inherent mistrust of strangers

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
The Medway Handyman wrote:
The days of the 40% discount for the tradesman are, with a few
exceptions like Howdens by and large gone. The public can now buy as
cheaply as a tradesman. If you were in touch with the market you would
realise that most of the public prefer to choose & purchase their own
bathrooms, kitchens, lighting etc and then get someone in to fit it.

Absolutely. Very few these days go to a tradesman and say 'install a new
bathroom for me please'. Most will want far more input than that.

--
*Constipated People Don't Give A Crap*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Fri, 30 May 2008 20:56:24 GMT, "The Medway Handyman"
wrote:


The days of the 40% discount for the tradesman are, with a few exceptions
like Howdens by and large gone. The public can now buy as cheaply as a
tradesman. If you were in touch with the market you would realise that most
of the public prefer to choose & purchase their own bathrooms, kitchens,
lighting etc and then get someone in to fit it.

I'd much rather leave it to the installer to supply the items (as long
as they're the ones that I specify). That's what I did a few years ago
for the bathroom.
That way, the responsibility of actually getting the bits 'n' pieces,
including all the sundries, in a timely manner is on the same
guy/firm, then it's up to him to get the whole installation done and
working properly.

--
Frank Erskine

In article 48406bf5@qaanaaq,
Andy Hall wrote:
If you pay direct for the suite at least
you'll know what he's charging for labour.

It really depends on the value to the customer of having the project
management and one place of responsibility.

Project management now, eh? You ever met a plumber?

--
*Dancing is a perpendicular expression of a horizontal desire *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Tanner-'op wrote:
If you run the business 'properly' then 'supply and fix' is the norm.
If you go for a meal in a restaurant, do you take your own, uncooked
food in and then ask the chef to cook it based on his hourly rate? If
you did, it would be you in the cooking pot!

Do you go into a restaurant and take what they give you without choice?
That is the same as letting a plumber choose everything for you.

--
*I don't suffer from insanity; I enjoy every minute of it.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Tanner-'op wrote:
In business, the 'tradesman' negotiates a cut-price rate with his
suppliers of around 10 - 40%, they will also arrange an extra discount
for a prompt settlement of the suppliers monthly invoice to the
tradesman of around 5 - 10% but the tradesman will then pass supply
the materials to the customer at the 'full'price and possibly even
adding a further 10 - 20% for overheads.

So you mark up goods by 50%? And are still in business?

Now, if the tradesman wants to look good in the customers eyes (or just
to get the job), he now has enough leeway to offer a 'discount' to the
customer and still make a profit - without having to cut his labour
charge - and that's how the system works and it certainly did in my
last job.

Lesson endeth - patronising though it may sound.

Fine. Most plumbers already charge a more than adequate hourly rate -
adding on a profit from goods supplied shows just why only Polish ones get
any work these days.

By the way, going back to my analogy of your meal - if you have a meal
in a pub, the *profit* margin there is at least 60% on *every* meal and
the same goes for the top-notch restaurants!

Don't be so fooking stupid. A restaurant supplies much more than just the
cost of the food and the labour to cook it. Indeed with an upmarket one
this will be the least of their costs.

--
*I want it all and I want it delivered

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Andy Hall wrote:
On 2008-05-30 12:14:47 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)"
said:

In article 483f0c75@qaanaaq,
Andy Hall wrote:
All of which can be avoided if the tradesman supplies and fits......
Then everybody knows exactly where they are and there is no
argument.

You certainly don't know 'where you are' since he could be marking
up the parts over the cost to him.

He may well be.


If you pay direct for the suite at least
you'll know what he's charging for labour.

It really depends on the value to the customer of having the project
management and one place of responsibility.

Agreed. Some customers just want you to get everything sorted for them &
don't mind paying a premium. IME the larger part of the market want 'fit
only'. In which case I try to steer them in the direction of a competant
supplier http://www.medwayhandyman.co.uk/suppliers.htm



--
Dave - The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk

On Sat, 31 May 2008 00:01:55 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

In article 48406bf5@qaanaaq,
Andy Hall wrote:
If you pay direct for the suite at least
you'll know what he's charging for labour.

It really depends on the value to the customer of having the project
management and one place of responsibility.

Project management now, eh? You ever met a plumber?

That made oi larf ...

Derek

On 2008-05-31 00:01:55 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)"
said:

In article 48406bf5@qaanaaq,
Andy Hall wrote:
If you pay direct for the suite at least
you'll know what he's charging for labour.

It really depends on the value to the customer of having the project
management and one place of responsibility.

Project management now, eh? You ever met a plumber?

Oh definitely.

Project management can range from the sophisticated down to the simple
one of sourcing specified goods and fitting them..

Frank Erskine wrote:
On Fri, 30 May 2008 20:56:24 GMT, "The Medway Handyman"
wrote:


The days of the 40% discount for the tradesman are, with a few
exceptions like Howdens by and large gone. The public can now buy
as cheaply as a tradesman. If you were in touch with the market you
would realise that most of the public prefer to choose & purchase
their own bathrooms, kitchens, lighting etc and then get someone in
to fit it.

I'd much rather leave it to the installer to supply the items (as long
as they're the ones that I specify). That's what I did a few years ago
for the bathroom.
That way, the responsibility of actually getting the bits 'n' pieces,
including all the sundries, in a timely manner is on the same
guy/firm, then it's up to him to get the whole installation done and
working properly.

Sensible on your part Frank agreed, but not on mine if the client specifies
the items.

If I were asked to install "this B&Q bathroom" I would tell the customer OK,
you buy it, I'll install it. That way if/when I found damaged/missing bits
it isn't my problem & I can charge extra time for sorting it. I wouldn't
accept the job on any other basis.

If I bought the specified B&Q bathroom myself & found damaged/missing bits
(highly likely) then it would be my problem & cost to sort it out. I could
easily end up out of pocket because B&Q are basically unreliable as a
supplier. I would end up paying for B&Q's inadequate service - something
out of my control.

The problem is that I can't put a margin on that B&Q bathroom because the
customer knows exactly how much B&Q sell it for.

If a client asks me to supply & fit "a bathroom" I would qoute for & supply
one obtained from my local independant because I can earn a margin on the
supply as well as labour on the fix & know I won't have the damaged/missing
bits problem.


--
Dave - The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk

In article 48408c85@qaanaaq,
Andy Hall wrote:
Project management can range from the sophisticated down to the simple
one of sourcing specified goods and fitting them..

Right. I project managed a 13 amp plug onto a cable today.

--
*In some places, C:\ is the root of all directories *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"The Medway Handyman" wrote in message
.. .


Frank Erskine wrote:
On Fri, 30 May 2008 20:56:24 GMT, "The Medway Handyman"
wrote:


The days of the 40% discount for the tradesman are, with a few
exceptions like Howdens by and large gone. The public can now buy
as cheaply as a tradesman. If you were in touch with the market you
would realise that most of the public prefer to choose & purchase
their own bathrooms, kitchens, lighting etc and then get someone in
to fit it.

I'd much rather leave it to the installer to supply the items (as long
as they're the ones that I specify). That's what I did a few years ago
for the bathroom.
That way, the responsibility of actually getting the bits 'n' pieces,
including all the sundries, in a timely manner is on the same
guy/firm, then it's up to him to get the whole installation done and
working properly.

Sensible on your part Frank agreed, but not on mine if the client
specifies the items.

If I were asked to install "this B&Q bathroom" I would tell the customer
OK, you buy it, I'll install it. That way if/when I found damaged/missing
bits it isn't my problem & I can charge extra time for sorting it. I
wouldn't accept the job on any other basis.

If I bought the specified B&Q bathroom myself & found damaged/missing bits
(highly likely) then it would be my problem & cost to sort it out. I
could easily end up out of pocket because B&Q are basically unreliable as
a supplier. I would end up paying for B&Q's inadequate service -
something out of my control.

The problem is that I can't put a margin on that B&Q bathroom because the
customer knows exactly how much B&Q sell it for.

If a client asks me to supply & fit "a bathroom" I would qoute for &
supply one obtained from my local independant because I can earn a margin
on the supply as well as labour on the fix & know I won't have the
damaged/missing bits problem.

Typical trades person.. the jobs easier *and* I will screw them for more.
Ever wonder why DIY is popular?

"The Medway Handyman" wrote in message
.. .


Frank Erskine wrote:
On Fri, 30 May 2008 20:56:24 GMT, "The Medway Handyman"
wrote:


The days of the 40% discount for the tradesman are, with a few
exceptions like Howdens by and large gone. The public can now buy
as cheaply as a tradesman. If you were in touch with the market you
would realise that most of the public prefer to choose & purchase
their own bathrooms, kitchens, lighting etc and then get someone in
to fit it.

I'd much rather leave it to the installer to supply the items (as long
as they're the ones that I specify). That's what I did a few years ago
for the bathroom.
That way, the responsibility of actually getting the bits 'n' pieces,
including all the sundries, in a timely manner is on the same
guy/firm, then it's up to him to get the whole installation done and
working properly.

Sensible on your part Frank agreed, but not on mine if the client
specifies the items.

If I were asked to install "this B&Q bathroom" I would tell the customer
OK, you buy it, I'll install it. That way if/when I found damaged/missing
bits it isn't my problem & I can charge extra time for sorting it. I
wouldn't accept the job on any other basis.

If I bought the specified B&Q bathroom myself & found damaged/missing bits
(highly likely) then it would be my problem & cost to sort it out. I
could easily end up out of pocket because B&Q are basically unreliable as
a supplier. I would end up paying for B&Q's inadequate service -
something out of my control.

The problem is that I can't put a margin on that B&Q bathroom because the
customer knows exactly how much B&Q sell it for.

If a client asks me to supply & fit "a bathroom" I would qoute for &
supply one obtained from my local independant because I can earn a margin
on the supply as well as labour on the fix & know I won't have the
damaged/missing bits problem.


--
Dave - The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk



I've never looked into the ins and outs of it, but do B&Q not have trade
counters at their bigger superstores ? We have two in our area, and I know
at least one of them has a trade counter. Surely, this would imply that
tradesmen other than yourselves, *are* prepared to use them as a supplier,
and presumably, if they are going to offer such a service as a special
counter for bona fide trade only, they must be offering some sort of
discount over the shop floor retail price ? If that is the case, then the
customer can pick what they want at the retail price, and you can get your
markup on the parts, by buying at the B&Q trade rate.

Arfa

The Medway Handyman wrote:

tradesman. If you were in touch with the market you would realise that most
of the public prefer to choose & purchase their own bathrooms, kitchens,
lighting etc and then get someone in to fit it.

While what much of what you say is true, you also have to accept that
the segment of the market that you are in daily contact with is a self
selecting group who match that demographic very closely.

The ones who would prefer a "one stop shop" buying from the fitters
photos and glossy brochures are also the ones more likely to go to the
bespoke "kitchen fitter" or "bathroom installer" etc, rather than
looking for general handyman.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

The Medway Handyman wrote:

The problem is that I can't put a margin on that B&Q bathroom because the
customer knows exactly how much B&Q sell it for.

Well you can... Say to the customer, yes I can fit that, if you want me
to supply it then I will add a 10% surcharge to the price to cover the
possibility of problems. If you buy it directly - then no surcharge, but
either you will need to resolve the problems, or have me do so for you
at my normal charge rate.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

Arfa Daily wrote:
SNIP
I've never looked into the ins and outs of it, but do B&Q not have
trade counters at their bigger superstores ? We have two in our area,
and I know at least one of them has a trade counter. Surely, this
would imply that tradesmen other than yourselves, *are* prepared to
use them as a supplier, and presumably, if they are going to offer
such a service as a special counter for bona fide trade only, they
must be offering some sort of discount over the shop floor retail
price ? If that is the case, then the customer can pick what they
want at the retail price, and you can get your markup on the parts,
by buying at the B&Q trade rate.

They have a Trade door & checkout, but thats about it, no discounts as
such. They have a B&Q Trade Credit Card and have just introduced a trade
discount card, which only works like a Tesc Clubcard.


--
Dave - The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk

John Rumm wrote:
The Medway Handyman wrote:

tradesman. If you were in touch with the market you would realise
that most of the public prefer to choose & purchase their own
bathrooms, kitchens, lighting etc and then get someone in to fit it.

While what much of what you say is true, you also have to accept that
the segment of the market that you are in daily contact with is a self
selecting group who match that demographic very closely.

The ones who would prefer a "one stop shop" buying from the fitters
photos and glossy brochures are also the ones more likely to go to the
bespoke "kitchen fitter" or "bathroom installer" etc, rather than
looking for general handyman.

Very true.


--
Dave - The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk

dennis@home wrote:

If a client asks me to supply & fit "a bathroom" I would qoute for &
supply one obtained from my local independant because I can earn a
margin on the supply as well as labour on the fix & know I won't have
the damaged/missing bits problem.

Typical trades person.. the jobs easier *and* I will screw them for more.
Ever wonder why DIY is popular?

And they get a better product and a quicker and less stressful outcome.

Sounds like everyone wins.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 2008-05-31 00:45:29 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)"
said:

In article 48408c85@qaanaaq,
Andy Hall wrote:
Project management can range from the sophisticated down to the simple
one of sourcing specified goods and fitting them..

Right. I project managed a 13 amp plug onto a cable today.

Hope you made a good margin :-)

"John Rumm" wrote in message
et...
dennis@home wrote:

If a client asks me to supply & fit "a bathroom" I would qoute for &
supply one obtained from my local independant because I can earn a
margin on the supply as well as labour on the fix & know I won't have
the damaged/missing bits problem.

Typical trades person.. the jobs easier *and* I will screw them for more.
Ever wonder why DIY is popular?

And they get a better product and a quicker and less stressful outcome.

They might get a better product.

Andy Hall wrote:
On 2008-05-31 00:45:29 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)"
said:

In article 48408c85@qaanaaq,
Andy Hall wrote:
Project management can range from the sophisticated down to the
simple one of sourcing specified goods and fitting them..

Right. I project managed a 13 amp plug onto a cable today.

Hope you made a good margin :-)

Cost price 50p, mark up 100%, materials £1.00 - margin bugger all.



--
Dave - The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk

"The Medway Handyman" wrote in message
...


Andy Hall wrote:
On 2008-05-31 00:45:29 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)"
said:

In article 48408c85@qaanaaq,
Andy Hall wrote:
Project management can range from the sophisticated down to the
simple one of sourcing specified goods and fitting them..

Right. I project managed a 13 amp plug onto a cable today.

Hope you made a good margin :-)

Cost price 50p, mark up 100%, materials £1.00 - margin bugger all.



--
Dave - The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk



So how would you figure a markup of 100% to be a margin of "bugger all" ?
I'm glad I've never enganged you to do any work for me. If I marked
everything up by 100%, I wouldn't have any customers ... d;~}

Arfa

On 2008-06-01 09:21:41 +0100, "Arfa Daily" said:


"The Medway Handyman" wrote in message
...


Andy Hall wrote:
On 2008-05-31 00:45:29 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)"
said:

In article 48408c85@qaanaaq,
Andy Hall wrote:
Project management can range from the sophisticated down to the
simple one of sourcing specified goods and fitting them..

Right. I project managed a 13 amp plug onto a cable today.

Hope you made a good margin :-)

Cost price 50p, mark up 100%, materials £1.00 - margin bugger all.



--
Dave - The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk



So how would you figure a markup of 100% to be a margin of "bugger all" ?
I'm glad I've never enganged you to do any work for me. If I marked
everything up by 100%, I wouldn't have any customers ... d;~}

Arfa

Your'e confusing markup and margin.

If I buy something for 50p and mark it up 100% it will be priced at £1.

For this case, the margin is 50%.

Had the cost of goods been £1, then the margin would have been zero,
bugger all, or in Welsh, Llareggub.

"Andy Hall" wrote in message news:48426bb6@qaanaaq...
On 2008-06-01 09:21:41 +0100, "Arfa Daily" said:


"The Medway Handyman" wrote in message
...


Andy Hall wrote:
On 2008-05-31 00:45:29 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)"
said:

In article 48408c85@qaanaaq,
Andy Hall wrote:
Project management can range from the sophisticated down to the
simple one of sourcing specified goods and fitting them..

Right. I project managed a 13 amp plug onto a cable today.

Hope you made a good margin :-)

Cost price 50p, mark up 100%, materials £1.00 - margin bugger all.



--
Dave - The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk



So how would you figure a markup of 100% to be a margin of "bugger all" ?
I'm glad I've never enganged you to do any work for me. If I marked
everything up by 100%, I wouldn't have any customers ... d;~}

Arfa

Your'e confusing markup and margin.

If I buy something for 50p and mark it up 100% it will be priced at £1.

For this case, the margin is 50%.

Had the cost of goods been £1, then the margin would have been zero,
bugger all, or in Welsh, Llareggub.


I'm not confusing anything. I know the difference between %age markup and
'margin'. The cost of the goods in the example wasn't £1, it was 50p. If you
marked it up by 100% to £1 your margin is, as you say, 50%. To progress this
in a logical manner, if you bought a bath for £200, and applied your 100%
markup to your customer, it's then gonna set them back £400. Still a 50%
margin, but an extortionate price to the customer ... I wouldn't call that
margin of £200, "bugger all".

Arfa

On 2008-06-02 01:51:32 +0100, "Arfa Daily" said:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message news:48426bb6@qaanaaq...
On 2008-06-01 09:21:41 +0100, "Arfa Daily" said:


"The Medway Handyman" wrote in message
...


Andy Hall wrote:
On 2008-05-31 00:45:29 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)"
said:

In article 48408c85@qaanaaq,
Andy Hall wrote:
Project management can range from the sophisticated down to the
simple one of sourcing specified goods and fitting them..

Right. I project managed a 13 amp plug onto a cable today.

Hope you made a good margin :-)

Cost price 50p, mark up 100%, materials £1.00 - margin bugger all.



--
Dave - The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk



So how would you figure a markup of 100% to be a margin of "bugger all" ?
I'm glad I've never enganged you to do any work for me. If I marked
everything up by 100%, I wouldn't have any customers ... d;~}

Arfa

Your'e confusing markup and margin.

If I buy something for 50p and mark it up 100% it will be priced at £1.

For this case, the margin is 50%.

Had the cost of goods been £1, then the margin would have been zero,
bugger all, or in Welsh, Llareggub.


I'm not confusing anything. I know the difference between %age markup and
'margin'. The cost of the goods in the example wasn't £1, it was 50p.

Read it again What he was saying was that if the materials cost had
been £1, the margin would have been zero.


If you
marked it up by 100% to £1 your margin is, as you say, 50%. To progress this
in a logical manner, if you bought a bath for £200, and applied your 100%
markup to your customer, it's then gonna set them back £400. Still a 50%
margin, but an extortionate price to the customer ... I wouldn't call that
margin of £200, "bugger all".


That depends on context. If the fitter was simply sourcing a bath
and having it delivered and doing nothing more, then a 50% margin in
the context of £200 for a £200 would be unreasonable. 50% would be
reasonable for a £50 tap because it's likely to cost that much in time
to go and source it. For the £200 bath, in the context of a £2k
bathroom project, the customer may feel that it's reasonable to accept
£200 for sourcing of materials in order that ownership of any problems
is with the fitter.

Assumption of risk has a cost. The customer can also choose to
source the materials himself and then he assumes the risk. He has to
decide whether the saving is worth it and there needs to be a clear
understanding of what happens if things go wrong.

The problems arise when the customer has wanted to attempt to save
money by sourcing goods for himself but then expects the tradesman to
fix the problems if the goods are faulty. There is a cost associated
with that, just as there is a cost associated with the return of any
faulty goods by any purchaser.

Arfa Daily wrote:
"Andy Hall" wrote in message
news:48426bb6@qaanaaq...
On 2008-06-01 09:21:41 +0100, "Arfa Daily"
said:

"The Medway Handyman" wrote in
message ...


Andy Hall wrote:
On 2008-05-31 00:45:29 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)"
said:

In article 48408c85@qaanaaq,
Andy Hall wrote:
Project management can range from the sophisticated down to the
simple one of sourcing specified goods and fitting them..

Right. I project managed a 13 amp plug onto a cable today.

Hope you made a good margin :-)

Cost price 50p, mark up 100%, materials £1.00 - margin bugger all.



--
Dave - The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk



So how would you figure a markup of 100% to be a margin of "bugger
all" ? I'm glad I've never enganged you to do any work for me. If I
marked everything up by 100%, I wouldn't have any customers ... d;~}
Arfa

Your'e confusing markup and margin.

If I buy something for 50p and mark it up 100% it will be priced at
£1. For this case, the margin is 50%.

Had the cost of goods been £1, then the margin would have been zero,
bugger all, or in Welsh, Llareggub.


I'm not confusing anything. I know the difference between %age markup
and 'margin'. The cost of the goods in the example wasn't £1, it was
50p. If you marked it up by 100% to £1 your margin is, as you say,
50%. To progress this in a logical manner, if you bought a bath for
£200, and applied your 100% markup to your customer, it's then gonna
set them back £400. Still a 50% margin, but an extortionate price to
the customer ... I wouldn't call that margin of £200, "bugger all".

You misunderstand Arfa. I was making the point that the precentage mark up
relates to the cost of the item. A 100% mark up on 50p is bugger all (50P)
wheras, as you say a 100% mark up on a £200 item is a lot of money.


--
Dave - The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk

"The Medway Handyman" wrote in message
...


Arfa Daily wrote:
"Andy Hall" wrote in message
news:48426bb6@qaanaaq...
On 2008-06-01 09:21:41 +0100, "Arfa Daily"
said:

"The Medway Handyman" wrote in
message ...


Andy Hall wrote:
On 2008-05-31 00:45:29 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)"
said:

In article 48408c85@qaanaaq,
Andy Hall wrote:
Project management can range from the sophisticated down to the
simple one of sourcing specified goods and fitting them..

Right. I project managed a 13 amp plug onto a cable today.

Hope you made a good margin :-)

Cost price 50p, mark up 100%, materials £1.00 - margin bugger all.



--
Dave - The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk



So how would you figure a markup of 100% to be a margin of "bugger
all" ? I'm glad I've never enganged you to do any work for me. If I
marked everything up by 100%, I wouldn't have any customers ... d;~}
Arfa

Your'e confusing markup and margin.

If I buy something for 50p and mark it up 100% it will be priced at
£1. For this case, the margin is 50%.

Had the cost of goods been £1, then the margin would have been zero,
bugger all, or in Welsh, Llareggub.


I'm not confusing anything. I know the difference between %age markup
and 'margin'. The cost of the goods in the example wasn't £1, it was
50p. If you marked it up by 100% to £1 your margin is, as you say,
50%. To progress this in a logical manner, if you bought a bath for
£200, and applied your 100% markup to your customer, it's then gonna
set them back £400. Still a 50% margin, but an extortionate price to
the customer ... I wouldn't call that margin of £200, "bugger all".

You misunderstand Arfa. I was making the point that the precentage mark
up relates to the cost of the item. A 100% mark up on 50p is bugger all
(50P) wheras, as you say a 100% mark up on a £200 item is a lot of money.


--
Dave - The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk


Ah. Now we're getting to it ! That was what I understood you to be saying,
but you never said that you would apply a sliding scale of markup so that
more expensive items did not become extortionately so, after markup. The
point that I was of course making, that others seem to have misunderstood,
is that a 50% margin per se, is not "bugger all" ...

Arfa