My nextdoor neighbour has just been round to ask about re-connecting
the cable to his telephone extension, which he has inadvertantly cut.
He doesn't want to replace the whole length of cable as it takes a
circuitous route under floorboards, stair cupboard and round door
frames etc from the hall up to the bedroom.

I looked in the TLC and Screwfix catalogues which I happened to have
to hand, but couldn't find anything in the way of a connector box
which looked suitable.

I have suggested he tries just an ordinary chocblock with the
appropriate number of ways, and connects the corresponding wire
colours together. Appearance doesn't matter as it's in the cupboard
underneath the stairs where he made his erroneous cut!

Any reason why this shouldn't work? Is there a better way of doing it
- e.g. a purpose made connector?

TIA

Pete

In article ,
petek writes:
My nextdoor neighbour has just been round to ask about re-connecting
the cable to his telephone extension, which he has inadvertantly cut.
He doesn't want to replace the whole length of cable as it takes a
circuitous route under floorboards, stair cupboard and round door
frames etc from the hall up to the bedroom.

I looked in the TLC and Screwfix catalogues which I happened to have
to hand, but couldn't find anything in the way of a connector box
which looked suitable.

I have suggested he tries just an ordinary chocblock with the
appropriate number of ways, and connects the corresponding wire
colours together. Appearance doesn't matter as it's in the cupboard
underneath the stairs where he made his erroneous cut!

Any reason why this shouldn't work? Is there a better way of doing it
- e.g. a purpose made connector?

What type of phone cable (internal wiring, internal flex,
external wiring, fly wire, ...) and is there any slack
which can be pulled into the join?

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

petek wrote:
My nextdoor neighbour has just been round to ask about re-connecting
the cable to his telephone extension, which he has inadvertantly cut.
He doesn't want to replace the whole length of cable as it takes a
circuitous route under floorboards, stair cupboard and round door
frames etc from the hall up to the bedroom.

I looked in the TLC and Screwfix catalogues which I happened to have
to hand, but couldn't find anything in the way of a connector box
which looked suitable.

I have suggested he tries just an ordinary chocblock with the
appropriate number of ways, and connects the corresponding wire
colours together. Appearance doesn't matter as it's in the cupboard
underneath the stairs where he made his erroneous cut!

Any reason why this shouldn't work? Is there a better way of doing it
- e.g. a purpose made connector?

TIA

Pete
There are special connectors that BT use, I don't know if you can buy
them. I have just used a chocolate block which will be fine in the dry.

On 7 Jan, 12:19, (Andrew Gabriel) wrote:
In article ,
* * * * petek writes:





My nextdoor neighbour has just been round to ask about re-connecting
the cable to his telephone extension, which he has inadvertantly cut.
He doesn't want to replace the whole length of cable as it takes a
circuitous route under floorboards, stair cupboard and round door
frames etc from the hall up to the bedroom.

I looked in the TLC and Screwfix catalogues which I happened to have
to hand, but couldn't find anything in the way of a connector box
which looked suitable.

I have suggested he tries just an ordinary chocblock with the
appropriate number of ways, and connects the corresponding wire
colours together. Appearance doesn't matter as it's in the cupboard
underneath the stairs where he made his erroneous cut!

Any reason why this shouldn't work? Is there a better way of doing it
- e.g. a purpose made connector?

What type of phone cable (internal wiring, internal flex,
external wiring, fly wire, ...) and is there any slack
which can be pulled into the join?

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I haven't asked him but I believe it's just bog standard extension
cable that you could buy in any DIY store for internal use. There is
plenty of slack apparently. He told me it was 5 way, but he may be
mistaken and it's actually 6 way.

Cheers
Pete

Go into City Electrical Factors and buy a 8 way junction box for an intruder
alarm system, and just reconnect the pairs.

On 7 Jan, 12:46, wrote:
On 7 Jan, *
* * *petek wrote:

Any reason why this shouldn't work? Is there a better way of doing it
- e.g. a purpose made connector?

http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/GPJB1.html

You need the little plastic 'pusher' (or the proper tool) to fit the wires..

A chock block should work anyway, but this would be more reliable.

--
* B Thumbs
* Change lycos to yahoo to reply

Thanks - I must have overlooked this in my TLC catalogue. I'll wait
and see how he gets on with the chock block first and if it works then
all well and good. IME IDC's are a pain in the bum and very easy to
cock up. Old fashioned screws are much easier.

Thanks for your help.

Pete

petek wrote:
My nextdoor neighbour has just been round to ask about re-connecting
the cable to his telephone extension, which he has inadvertantly cut.
He doesn't want to replace the whole length of cable as it takes a
circuitous route under floorboards, stair cupboard and round door
frames etc from the hall up to the bedroom.

I looked in the TLC and Screwfix catalogues which I happened to have
to hand, but couldn't find anything in the way of a connector box
which looked suitable.

I have suggested he tries just an ordinary chocblock with the
appropriate number of ways, and connects the corresponding wire
colours together. Appearance doesn't matter as it's in the cupboard
underneath the stairs where he made his erroneous cut!

Any reason why this shouldn't work? Is there a better way of doing it
- e.g. a purpose made connector?


It will be fine for voice. Not so good for broadband, but not bad.


TIA

Pete

On Mon, 7 Jan 2008 04:07:35 -0800 (PST), petek wrote:

I looked in the TLC and Screwfix catalogues which I happened to have
to hand, but couldn't find anything in the way of a connector box
which looked suitable.

Didn't look hard enough at TLC:

http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/GPJB1.html

The sheds have them but at three or four times the TLC price but how much
P&P will there be? A local electrical wholesaler might be a better bet.

A choc block will work but bear in mind that there is 50v DC on the line
when the phones are on hook. Not something your want the dog to lick, it
does hurt at least when you are connecting to a phone line standing in a
puddle in the peeing rain...

The biggest problem, if this is a straight cut through the cable in a run,
is going to be getting enough slack to use a proper joint box or even a
choc block.

--
Cheers
Dave. pam is missing e-mail

In article ,
petek writes:
I haven't asked him but I believe it's just bog standard extension
cable that you could buy in any DIY store for internal use. There is
plenty of slack apparently. He told me it was 5 way, but he may be
mistaken and it's actually 6 way.

Well, it will either be 4 or 6 core, probably with a rip cord.
You need to get something like this:
http://cpc.farnell.com/jsp/search/pr...sp?sku=TE04166
You can probably get something similar in Maplin.
There are also punchdown types which are more professional, but
if you haven't used punchdown before and have not got a punchdown
tool, then I suggest getting a screw terminal type.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

In article
,
petek wrote:
My nextdoor neighbour has just been round to ask about re-connecting
the cable to his telephone extension, which he has inadvertantly cut.
He doesn't want to replace the whole length of cable as it takes a
circuitous route under floorboards, stair cupboard and round door
frames etc from the hall up to the bedroom.

I looked in the TLC and Screwfix catalogues which I happened to have
to hand, but couldn't find anything in the way of a connector box
which looked suitable.

I have suggested he tries just an ordinary chocblock with the
appropriate number of ways, and connects the corresponding wire
colours together. Appearance doesn't matter as it's in the cupboard
underneath the stairs where he made his erroneous cut!

Any reason why this shouldn't work? Is there a better way of doing it
- e.g. a purpose made connector?

Choc block will be fine. Keep the blue/white and white/blue together -
adjacent terminals in the block - with a gentle twist between them in an
attempt to keep the balance feature of that pair intact.

--
*Marriage changes passion - suddenly you're in bed with a relative*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"petek" wrote in message
...
My nextdoor neighbour has just been round to ask about re-connecting
the cable to his telephone extension, which he has inadvertantly cut.
He doesn't want to replace the whole length of cable as it takes a
circuitous route under floorboards, stair cupboard and round door
frames etc from the hall up to the bedroom.

I looked in the TLC and Screwfix catalogues which I happened to have
to hand, but couldn't find anything in the way of a connector box
which looked suitable.

I have suggested he tries just an ordinary chocblock with the
appropriate number of ways, and connects the corresponding wire
colours together. Appearance doesn't matter as it's in the cupboard
underneath the stairs where he made his erroneous cut!

Any reason why this shouldn't work? Is there a better way of doing it
- e.g. a purpose made connector?

Probably the easiest to get hold of, would be an extension socket and just
use that as the joint - choc block would be fine though if he doesn't mind
the look of it.

On 7 Jan, 12:07, petek wrote:
My nextdoor neighbour has just been round to ask about re-connecting
the cable to his telephone extension,

Repair with telephone cable and appropriate junction boxes. You might
be lucky (if there's slack) and just use one, but you'll probably need
two junctions boxes and some spare cable.

These parts are now sold on every high street, so there's no excuse
for not using them. Equally the punchdown tool - the "one job" plastic
ones are under a quid, so don't be tempted to use a screwdriver.

Use IDC (punchdown) connectors and solid core phone cable. Don't use
choc block or stranded alarm cable - you'll get problems with it long
term, especially with ADSL. Screw terminals are for use with stranded,
IDC for solid core - mixing them is a bad idea.

The circuitry is just a quick bit of web searching. Easy.

Andy Dingley wrote:
On 7 Jan, 12:07, petek wrote:
My nextdoor neighbour has just been round to ask about re-connecting
the cable to his telephone extension,

Repair with telephone cable and appropriate junction boxes. You might
be lucky (if there's slack) and just use one, but you'll probably need
two junctions boxes and some spare cable.

These parts are now sold on every high street, so there's no excuse
for not using them. Equally the punchdown tool - the "one job" plastic
ones are under a quid, so don't be tempted to use a screwdriver.

Use IDC (punchdown) connectors and solid core phone cable. Don't use
choc block or stranded alarm cable - you'll get problems with it long
term, especially with ADSL. Screw terminals are for use with stranded,
IDC for solid core - mixing them is a bad idea.

The circuitry is just a quick bit of web searching. Easy.
As a quick easy fix, just strip the cable back on each end and twist the
appropriate conductors together, then insulate. Its not carrying any
high currents and will have no effect on speech or even broadband.

Just be careful the cores dont get nicked and snap.

robert wrote:
Andy Dingley wrote:
On 7 Jan, 12:07, petek wrote:
My nextdoor neighbour has just been round to ask about re-connecting
the cable to his telephone extension,

Repair with telephone cable and appropriate junction boxes. You might
be lucky (if there's slack) and just use one, but you'll probably need
two junctions boxes and some spare cable.

These parts are now sold on every high street, so there's no excuse
for not using them. Equally the punchdown tool - the "one job" plastic
ones are under a quid, so don't be tempted to use a screwdriver.

Use IDC (punchdown) connectors and solid core phone cable. Don't use
choc block or stranded alarm cable - you'll get problems with it long
term, especially with ADSL. Screw terminals are for use with stranded,
IDC for solid core - mixing them is a bad idea.

The circuitry is just a quick bit of web searching. Easy.
As a quick easy fix, just strip the cable back on each end and twist the
appropriate conductors together, then insulate. Its not carrying any
high currents and will have no effect on speech or even broadband.

Just be careful the cores dont get nicked and snap.

I think this is potentially dangerous. Such a joint dos NOT have the
microwelds the screws or crimpins will make, and surface oxidation will
eventually result in a nice rectifying oixide joint..in short bugger all
broadband, some distortion, and like as not crackles when the joint
oxide arcs over.

AND you will have to pay BT 150 quid to fix what they will instantly
diagnose is 'your fault'

Its ok for a quick bodge in an emergency, but the cost of doing it
properly is so small, I see no point.

In article ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
As a quick easy fix, just strip the cable back on each end and twist
the appropriate conductors together, then insulate. Its not
carrying any high currents and will have no effect on speech or even
broadband.

Just be careful the cores dont get nicked and snap.

I think this is potentially dangerous. Such a joint dos NOT have the
microwelds the screws or crimpins will make, and surface oxidation will
eventually result in a nice rectifying oixide joint..in short bugger all
broadband, some distortion, and like as not crackles when the joint
oxide arcs over.

Twisted connections were the norm for telephone cabling.

--
*Avoid clichés like the plague. (They're old hat.) *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
As a quick easy fix, just strip the cable back on each end and twist
the appropriate conductors together, then insulate. Its not
carrying any high currents and will have no effect on speech or even
broadband.

Just be careful the cores dont get nicked and snap.

I think this is potentially dangerous. Such a joint dos NOT have the
microwelds the screws or crimpins will make, and surface oxidation will
eventually result in a nice rectifying oixide joint..in short bugger all
broadband, some distortion, and like as not crackles when the joint
oxide arcs over.

Twisted connections were the norm for telephone cabling.

Not any more...with broadband..and they were probably done a bit more
systematically. You CAN get decent connections with twisting like e.g.
wire wrap.but it has to be done right.

These days its crimp solder or IDC for permanent, screw for impermanent.
And self cleaning plugs and sockets for detachable many times..

On Tue, 08 Jan 2008 15:42:58 +0000, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
As a quick easy fix, just strip the cable back on each end and twist
the appropriate conductors together, then insulate. Its not
carrying any high currents and will have no effect on speech or even
broadband.

Just be careful the cores dont get nicked and snap.

I think this is potentially dangerous. Such a joint dos NOT have the
microwelds the screws or crimpins will make, and surface oxidation will
eventually result in a nice rectifying oixide joint..in short bugger all
broadband, some distortion, and like as not crackles when the joint
oxide arcs over.

Twisted connections were the norm for telephone cabling.

Not any more...with broadband..and they were probably done a bit more
systematically.

According to my pal who works for Openreach, there are still thousands
of twisted joints in regular use all over - and used for broadband!

--
Frank Erskine

On 8 Jan, 16:33, Frank Erskine wrote:
On Tue, 08 Jan 2008 15:42:58 +0000, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:





Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
* *The Natural Philosopher wrote:
As a quick easy fix, just strip the cable back on each end and twist
the appropriate *conductors together, then insulate. *Its not
carrying any high currents and will have no effect on speech or even
broadband.

Just be careful the cores dont get nicked and snap.

I think this is potentially dangerous. Such a joint dos NOT have the
microwelds the screws or crimpins will make, and surface oxidation will
eventually result in a nice rectifying oixide joint..in short bugger all
broadband, some distortion, and like as not crackles when the joint
oxide arcs over.

Twisted connections were the norm for telephone cabling.

Not any more...with broadband..and they were probably done a bit more
systematically.

According to my pal who works for Openreach, there are still thousands
of twisted joints in regular use all over - and used for broadband!

--
Frank Erskine- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Feel free to comment further on the merits of various jointing
methods, but the chocblock solution has been fitted and is working
fine. Thanks to everybody who has provided advice, I never thought it
would provoke so much discussion!

Pete

On 8 Jan, 17:35, petek wrote:

the chocblock solution has been fitted and is working fine.

Of course it will.
The problem is _how_long_ it continues to work for.

Cabling problems involving vast numbers of hard-to-find and frequently
inaccessible joints have to take the long view.

In article ,
Frank Erskine wrote:
Twisted connections were the norm for telephone cabling.

Not any more...with broadband..and they were probably done a bit more
systematically.

According to my pal who works for Openreach, there are still thousands
of twisted joints in regular use all over - and used for broadband!

Of course there are - the underground cabling wasn't replaced for
broadband, and some is pretty old.

--
*Indian Driver - Smoke signals only*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Frank Erskine writes:
According to my pal who works for Openreach, there are still thousands
of twisted joints in regular use all over - and used for broadband!

and thousands of customers whose broadband is surprisingly
poor given the distance to the exchange.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

Andrew Gabriel wrote:
In article ,
Frank Erskine writes:
According to my pal who works for Openreach, there are still thousands
of twisted joints in regular use all over - and used for broadband!

and thousands of customers whose broadband is surprisingly
poor given the distance to the exchange.

On two occasions now I have lost phone connection while maintained
broadband due to a very poor connection while BT were fiddling down the
road.
The broadband attenuation did go through the roof tho'.

In article ,
robert writes:
On two occasions now I have lost phone connection while maintained
broadband due to a very poor connection while BT were fiddling down the
road.
The broadband attenuation did go through the roof tho'.

I've seen them die in either order. My parents had a tree
wear through the overhead line, and in that case the broadband
died about 2 days before the voice part did. But I've also had
loss of DC voltage on the line and the phone apparently dead
whilst the broadband continued just fine.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

On Mon, 07 Jan 2008 13:11:31 +0000, Dave Liquorice wrote:

A choc block will work but bear in mind that there is 50v DC on the line
when the phones are on hook. Not something your want the dog to lick, it
does hurt at least when you are connecting to a phone line standing in a
puddle in the peeing rain...


Or stripping the wire with your teeth.

DAMHIKT.

On Jan 8, 8:44*pm, PCPaul wrote:
On Mon, 07 Jan 2008 13:11:31 +0000, Dave Liquorice wrote:
A choc block will work but bear in mind that there is 50v DC on the line
when the phones are on hook. Not something your want the dog to lick, it
does hurt at least when you are connecting to a phone line standing in a
puddle in the peeing rain...

Or stripping the wire with your teeth.

DAMHIKT.

And 70-odd ac when ringing current appears, and that is painful.

On Tue, 08 Jan 2008 13:28:00 -0800, scdavies01 wrote:

On Jan 8, 8:44Â*pm, PCPaul wrote:
On Mon, 07 Jan 2008 13:11:31 +0000, Dave Liquorice wrote:
A choc block will work but bear in mind that there is 50v DC on the
line when the phones are on hook. Not something your want the dog to
lick, it does hurt at least when you are connecting to a phone line
standing in a puddle in the peeing rain...

Or stripping the wire with your teeth.

DAMHIKT.

And 70-odd ac when ringing current appears, and that is painful.

Thinks back.. fluttery feeling all round the lower jaw and throat -
would that be AC or would DC do that as well?

It definitely didn't feel like a 9V PP3 on your tongue does, I know that
much...

Frank Erskine wrote:
On Tue, 08 Jan 2008 15:42:58 +0000, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
As a quick easy fix, just strip the cable back on each end and twist
the appropriate conductors together, then insulate. Its not
carrying any high currents and will have no effect on speech or even
broadband.

Just be careful the cores dont get nicked and snap.
I think this is potentially dangerous. Such a joint dos NOT have the
microwelds the screws or crimpins will make, and surface oxidation will
eventually result in a nice rectifying oixide joint..in short bugger all
broadband, some distortion, and like as not crackles when the joint
oxide arcs over.
Twisted connections were the norm for telephone cabling.

Not any more...with broadband..and they were probably done a bit more
systematically.

According to my pal who works for Openreach, there are still thousands
of twisted joints in regular use all over - and used for broadband!

Don't tell me, he knows because he has to go out and fix em!

Andy Dingley wrote:
On 8 Jan, 17:35, petek wrote:

the chocblock solution has been fitted and is working fine.

Of course it will.
The problem is _how_long_ it continues to work for.

Cabling problems involving vast numbers of hard-to-find and frequently
inaccessible joints have to take the long view.


Probably around 60 years inside a house away from weather.


Its an interesting point. One hopes a houses struictire will do 120-250
years really, but not much of teh fixtrures and fittings will be
expected to do that.

I had a converstaion with a man who worked on cosnerving old stuff -
maiunly machines, but soime houess.

"generally a refurb every 15 years, a major refurb every 30, and 60
years is when you gut, make good and totally redo the interior after the
occupants have died.."

So a 60 year lifespan is adequate :-) It will fiber of direct microwave
brain injection by then.,.. ;-)

On Tue, 08 Jan 2008 21:50:33 +0000, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

Frank Erskine wrote:
On Tue, 08 Jan 2008 15:42:58 +0000, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
As a quick easy fix, just strip the cable back on each end and twist
the appropriate conductors together, then insulate. Its not
carrying any high currents and will have no effect on speech or even
broadband.

Just be careful the cores dont get nicked and snap.
I think this is potentially dangerous. Such a joint dos NOT have the
microwelds the screws or crimpins will make, and surface oxidation will
eventually result in a nice rectifying oixide joint..in short bugger all
broadband, some distortion, and like as not crackles when the joint
oxide arcs over.
Twisted connections were the norm for telephone cabling.

Not any more...with broadband..and they were probably done a bit more
systematically.

According to my pal who works for Openreach, there are still thousands
of twisted joints in regular use all over - and used for broadband!

Don't tell me, he knows because he has to go out and fix em!

No - oddly he has more trouble with crimped joints in cabinets.

--
Frank Erskine

In article ,
The Natural Philosopher writes:

Its an interesting point. One hopes a houses struictire will do 120-250

Yes -- until about 1970, houses in the UK were built with a
life expectancy of about 200 years. From that point, a wide
diversity of construction changes has appeared, which is
likely to lead to a number of shorter lived houses. As a
surveyor pointed out to me, this isn't something the public
have taken on board yet when considering the value of a
property, which means many houses are built using cheaper
shorter life materials in the knowledge they will still
sell for the full price.

Interestingly, offices are usually built with a 30 year
life expectancy.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

Andrew Gabriel wrote:
In article ,
The Natural Philosopher writes:
Its an interesting point. One hopes a houses struictire will do 120-250

Yes -- until about 1970, houses in the UK were built with a
life expectancy of about 200 years.

I don't think you can say that at all.

Many rural houses were built with no life expectancy..they were just
built. I suspect the same for most timber stuff.


From that point, a wide
diversity of construction changes has appeared,

No. there have always been a wide diversity, depending on local
materials you might see brick, stone or timber, clunch, horsehair and
dung, you name it, they have built houses out of it..even turf rooves.

which is
likely to lead to a number of shorter lived houses. As a
surveyor pointed out to me, this isn't something the public
have taken on board yet when considering the value of a
property, which means many houses are built using cheaper
shorter life materials in the knowledge they will still
sell for the full price.

I think therehave always been good houyses and crap houses.

\Today teh cots of refurb is way below land costs, so who cares?

Interestingly, offices are usually built with a 30 year
life expectancy.


What? not the new ones I have been in they aren't.

Concrete and glass..good for at least 50..the interiors last about 5
years mind you..

On 8 Jan, 21:54, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Probably around 60 years inside a house away from weather.

All depends on whether peeople have "run the cable neatly", i.e. under
the carpet and across doorways, where it gets walked upon.

Back when I worked for BT and did installs we had it drummed into us
where to run cables correctly (i.e. go up and over a door, not under
it), and how important it was to do so even if it made the job longer
to carry out. BT were still planning to be around in 25 years, or even
60 years, so it was expected that it would be _their_ bottom line that
paid to fix the future fault otherwise.

I've not seen this same attitude in commercial phone or CTV cablers,
any time in the last decade (even from BT). Network cablers are a bit
more conscientuous, as Cat5 is itself fussier.

On 08 Jan 2008 23:01:14 GMT Andrew Gabriel wrote :
Yes -- until about 1970, houses in the UK were built with a
life expectancy of about 200 years.

A bit optimistic, I think: without any evidence I would have
thought that the majority of pre-1880s properties have long since
been demolished.

From that point, a wide
diversity of construction changes has appeared, which is
likely to lead to a number of shorter lived houses. As a
surveyor pointed out to me, this isn't something the public
have taken on board yet when considering the value of a
property, which means many houses are built using cheaper
shorter life materials in the knowledge they will still
sell for the full price.

What's happened since 1970 is the price of land has escalated
dramatically as has the cost of repairs and maintenance, new build
- which has been deskilled - less so. Thus knocking down a 1930s
house and building a new one to modern tastes and needs may make
economic sense, which would not have been the case a few decades
back. If the house is listed or in a Conservation Area it may well
sell for less than the cleared site value - IOW the building has a
negative value.

--
Tony Bryer SDA UK 'Software to build on' http://www.sda.co.uk

In article ,
Tony Bryer writes:
On 08 Jan 2008 23:01:14 GMT Andrew Gabriel wrote :
Yes -- until about 1970, houses in the UK were built with a
life expectancy of about 200 years.

A bit optimistic, I think: without any evidence I would have
thought that the majority of pre-1880s properties have long since
been demolished.

Yes, but mostly through social engineering, not contruction
failures (although there are some I'm sure).

From that point, a wide
diversity of construction changes has appeared, which is
likely to lead to a number of shorter lived houses. As a
surveyor pointed out to me, this isn't something the public
have taken on board yet when considering the value of a
property, which means many houses are built using cheaper
shorter life materials in the knowledge they will still
sell for the full price.

What's happened since 1970 is the price of land has escalated
dramatically as has the cost of repairs and maintenance, new build
- which has been deskilled - less so. Thus knocking down a 1930s
house and building a new one to modern tastes and needs may make
economic sense, which would not have been the case a few decades
back. If the house is listed or in a Conservation Area it may well
sell for less than the cleared site value - IOW the building has a
negative value.

That's an argument for not bothering to design houses to
last 200 years, as other factors will render them obsolete
before then.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

In article
,
Andy Dingley wrote:
Back when I worked for BT and did installs we had it drummed into us
where to run cables correctly (i.e. go up and over a door, not under
it), and how important it was to do so even if it made the job longer
to carry out.

Yes the architrave and skirting board people as a chippy mate used to call
them. Making a mess of his neat work.

IMHO the correct place for telephone cables - and any other - is under the
floorboards etc - ie concealed. That way they can't get damaged either.

BTW - never knew a BT inside man who would take five minutes for a job
where one would 'do'.

--
*The severity of the itch is proportional to the reach *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 8 Jan, 18:35, "Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:

Of course there are - the underground cabling wasn't replaced for
broadband, and some is pretty old.

Not the local loop, so not especially relevant for broadband, but an
awful lot of cable _was_ replaced for digital telephony (i.e. into the
local exchange) and this was at lower data rates than we currently
expect from broadband (2 MBps and up). Some of this was to avoid old
connectors, some because the cable design itself changed (pair
conductors were separated into D-shaped groups within a cable, with a
screen between).

The sorts of bitrate we routinely push down phone cables today owes as
much to demonology as it does to Nyquist. I've never understood or
trusted it.

Andrew Gabriel wrote:
In article ,
Tony Bryer writes:
On 08 Jan 2008 23:01:14 GMT Andrew Gabriel wrote :
Yes -- until about 1970, houses in the UK were built with a
life expectancy of about 200 years.
A bit optimistic, I think: without any evidence I would have
thought that the majority of pre-1880s properties have long since
been demolished.

Yes, but mostly through social engineering, not contruction
failures (although there are some I'm sure).


Virtually all pre 1900 timber buildings eventually rotted or burnt down.
Survivors are the exception, not the rule.

Again,if you look at brick or stone houses, this was the structural
material of the affluent. You think houses were better build in 1775?
think again. Your average timber framed cow dung and parsley cottage
lasted maybe only a few years, ..which is why there aren't any left.
Even the best of thatch has only a 25 year life..fail to do labour
intensive maintenance, and thats the roof timbers gone, and then the
wall timbers..and then the house..

Victorain terraces build on the cheap for workers, all smell of rot.
Unless they have been extensively treated and restored. They are vile.
There is nowhere to park a car, they are right on the road, and only by
dint of using what used to be a backyard full of coal to put extensions
on, do they even manage to have a decent kitchen, or bathroom, by and large.

If they weren't all glued togther, everyone would have demolished them
as beyond ecomonic repair years ago.

They have with most other victorian properties in the 'below upper
middle class' category.


The only difference today, is that the carp that is being put up hasn't
fallen down or been demolished to build something better - yet.

I doubt that half of 20th century houses will be in existence by 2050.

Any more than half of 19th century houses were in existence in 1950.


From that point, a wide
diversity of construction changes has appeared, which is
likely to lead to a number of shorter lived houses. As a
surveyor pointed out to me, this isn't something the public
have taken on board yet when considering the value of a
property, which means many houses are built using cheaper
shorter life materials in the knowledge they will still
sell for the full price.
What's happened since 1970 is the price of land has escalated
dramatically as has the cost of repairs and maintenance, new build
- which has been deskilled - less so. Thus knocking down a 1930s
house and building a new one to modern tastes and needs may make
economic sense, which would not have been the case a few decades
back. If the house is listed or in a Conservation Area it may well
sell for less than the cleared site value - IOW the building has a
negative value.

That's an argument for not bothering to design houses to
last 200 years, as other factors will render them obsolete
before then.



Which in terms of low cost mass housing a la Barratt SuperHutch, is
precisely the correct attitude.

Andy Dingley wrote:
On 8 Jan, 18:35, "Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:

Of course there are - the underground cabling wasn't replaced for
broadband, and some is pretty old.

Not the local loop, so not especially relevant for broadband, but an
awful lot of cable _was_ replaced for digital telephony (i.e. into the
local exchange) and this was at lower data rates than we currently
expect from broadband (2 MBps and up). Some of this was to avoid old
connectors, some because the cable design itself changed (pair
conductors were separated into D-shaped groups within a cable, with a
screen between).

The sorts of bitrate we routinely push down phone cables today owes as
much to demonology as it does to Nyquist. I've never understood or
trusted it.

The bitrate as specified by Nyquits, is essentially bandwidth*power to
noise input. Up the power, and the bitrate goes up.Even if the bandwidth
doesn't..

The demology consists in getting as close to Nyquist as you can..

On Wed, 09 Jan 2008 21:53:04 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Again,if you look at brick or stone houses, this was the structural
material of the affluent.

er so lead mine worker circa 1720 was affluent eh? That is who this house
was orginally built for along with the barn and byre so they could
actually survive up here. It's rubble stone built and still here, mind you
the walls are the only orginal bits left. B-)

--
Cheers
Dave. pam is missing e-mail

Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Wed, 09 Jan 2008 21:53:04 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Again,if you look at brick or stone houses, this was the structural
material of the affluent.

er so lead mine worker circa 1720 was affluent eh?

Relatively, yes.


That is who this house
was orginally built for along with the barn and byre so they could
actually survive up here. It's rubble stone built and still here, mind you
the walls are the only orginal bits left. B-)


I meant dressed stone, not lumps of whatever the local earth was made up
piled iup. Yes, clunch, wood, small stones piled dry..these are all
'rustic' styles and none last very well.