I have converted part of a detached garage into a office. The floor,
ceiling and all the walls are well insulated and now I've come to the
problem of choosing a heating source. Due the buildings location a rad from
the CH in house is not possible and i don't want one of those portable gas
bottle fires so i guess my only option is an electric heater. Has anyone
tried one of those oil filled electric radiators? Are they expensive to run
and is 2K powerful enough for a room 3m x 4.5m? Is there anything else on
the market that is suitable?

Thanks,

Tom

On Sat, 21 Oct 2006 22:33:55 +0100, "Tom"
wrote:

I have converted part of a detached garage into a office. The floor,
ceiling and all the walls are well insulated and now I've come to the
problem of choosing a heating source. Due the buildings location a rad from
the CH in house is not possible and i don't want one of those portable gas
bottle fires so i guess my only option is an electric heater. Has anyone
tried one of those oil filled electric radiators? Are they expensive to run
and is 2K powerful enough for a room 3m x 4.5m? Is there anything else on
the market that is suitable?

Thanks,

Tom

Is it possible to get a gas pipe out?

If so, one of those wall mounted vented heaters may be reasonable and
cheap

In article ,
"Tom" writes:
I have converted part of a detached garage into a office. The floor,
ceiling and all the walls are well insulated and now I've come to the
problem of choosing a heating source. Due the buildings location a rad from
the CH in house is not possible and i don't want one of those portable gas
bottle fires so i guess my only option is an electric heater. Has anyone
tried one of those oil filled electric radiators? Are they expensive to run
and is 2K powerful enough for a room 3m x 4.5m? Is there anything else on
the market that is suitable?

Without knowing the thermal properties of the insulation, no one
can say. Quick back of an envelope, you'll need 500W of heating
to handle 2 air changes per hour, even if the insulation is 100%
perfect, and more than this if you will want to do a fast warm
up from a cold starting point.

In the summer, I fitted a B&Q air conditioner. I've been playing
with its heating mode in last few days (although it hasn't really
been cold enough). It gives out 3.8kW of heat for 1.3kW power
consumption. If B&Q have any left, it wouldn't surprise me if
they might start going cheap at this time of year. I don't know
how well they might work if it gets cold enough to ice up the
outdoor unit though -- it is doing something which might be a
defrost cycle when it switches off, but I don't know for sure.
It would give you air conditioning in the summer too, of course.

--
Andrew Gabriel

"Tom" wrote in message
...
I have converted part of a detached garage into a office. The floor,
ceiling and all the walls are well insulated and now I've come to the
problem of choosing a heating source. Due the buildings location a rad
from the CH in house is not possible and i don't want one of those portable
gas bottle fires so i guess my only option is an electric heater. Has
anyone tried one of those oil filled electric radiators? Are they
expensive to run and is 2K powerful enough for a room 3m x 4.5m? Is there
anything else on the market that is suitable?

Thanks,

Tom


I have a portable Dimplex oil-filed electric radiator - its just like any
other radiator when up to temperature. I have it for emergencies i.e. if the
combi packs up, or if someone needs the spare room, which was never fitted
with a wet radiator. It has its own thermostat so you can set the output.

Electricity is several times the cost of gas. Even though it is 100%
efficient at being turned into heat in an heating appliance, gas is still up
to 90% efficient with a condensing boiler so that doesn't equalise the
difference. Unless you go for thermal storage on economy 7 then you will be
paying out several times ( three or four IIRC - I stand to be corrected )
for electricity what you do for gas.

Your other option is an electric halogen radiant heater or an electric fan
heater.
A fan heater might have an advantage over a radiator in that it is up to
speed in seconds and if situated right next to where you are sitting can get
you warm in minutes. Ditto with a halogen heater, though that'll probably
get you warm on one side only, unlees you get two!

You'll have to make your own mind up.

Andy.

On 21 Oct 2006 22:21:58 GMT, (Andrew
Gabriel) wrote:

In the summer, I fitted a B&Q air conditioner. I've been playing
with its heating mode in last few days (although it hasn't really
been cold enough). It gives out 3.8kW of heat for 1.3kW power
consumption. If B&Q have any left, it wouldn't surprise me if
they might start going cheap at this time of year.

slightly OT

Whenever I visit my local Staples store, one of the stock alarm
systems seems to be permanently going "cheep - cheep".

Unless of course it's an advertising thing, and it's meant to be
saying "cheap - cheap".

/slightly OT

:-)
--
Frank Erskine

On Sat, 21 Oct 2006 22:33:55 +0100, "Tom"
wrote:

Has anyone
tried one of those oil filled electric radiators? Are they expensive to run
and is 2K powerful enough for a room 3m x 4.5m? Is there anything else on
the market that is suitable?

Look at a heat pump air conditioner. Used as a heater you get about
2 or 3 times the heat output compared with the energy input. So for
3kW output you pay for 1 or 2 kW input. As a bonus you get an air
conditioner for the summer.

Price about GBP300 if you hunt around eBay for a DIY fit.
--
Peter Parry.
http://www.wpp.ltd.uk/

Tom wrote:

I have converted part of a detached garage into a office. The floor,
ceiling and all the walls are well insulated and now I've come to the
problem of choosing a heating source. Due the buildings location a rad from
the CH in house is not possible and i don't want one of those portable gas
bottle fires so i guess my only option is an electric heater. Has anyone
tried one of those oil filled electric radiators? Are they expensive to run
and is 2K powerful enough for a room 3m x 4.5m? Is there anything else on
the market that is suitable?

Thanks,

Tom

All electric resistance heating is 100% efficient. The differences with
an oil radiator a
1. it takes a while to get warm, thus takes longer to heat a room
2. theyre kid safe

Heat pump is a more logical option


NT

Tom wrote:
I have converted part of a detached garage into a office. The floor,
ceiling and all the walls are well insulated and now I've come to the
problem of choosing a heating source. Due the buildings location a rad from
the CH in house is not possible and i don't want one of those portable gas
bottle fires so i guess my only option is an electric heater. Has anyone
tried one of those oil filled electric radiators? Are they expensive to run
and is 2K powerful enough for a room 3m x 4.5m? Is there anything else on
the market that is suitable?


Oil filled rads, cheap convection or electric fan are all suitable.

A lot depends on the way you intend to use it, but I personally like
wall mounted fans up high that push hot air downwards. Like hot air
'curtains' in shops. these at least suck the hot air from up high and
blow it to the floor where your tootsies are. Blowers also seem to get
the place more evenly heated quicker

2-3KW is totally adequate if the insulation is good. On really icy days,
plug in a 10 quid convector as well if necessary

wrote:
Tom wrote:

I have converted part of a detached garage into a office. The floor,
ceiling and all the walls are well insulated and now I've come to the
problem of choosing a heating source. Due the buildings location a rad from
the CH in house is not possible and i don't want one of those portable gas
bottle fires so i guess my only option is an electric heater. Has anyone
tried one of those oil filled electric radiators? Are they expensive to run
and is 2K powerful enough for a room 3m x 4.5m? Is there anything else on
the market that is suitable?

Thanks,

Tom

All electric resistance heating is 100% efficient. The differences with
an oil radiator a
1. it takes a while to get warm, thus takes longer to heat a room
2. theyre kid safe

Heat pump is a more logical option


Yes, but electrical generation is only about 50% efficient.

NT

In article ,
The Natural Philosopher writes:

Yes, but electrical generation is only about 50% efficient.

Less than that in this country.

--
Andrew Gabriel

wrote:

All electric resistance heating is 100% efficient.

Not so, because of the voltage drop between the meter and the appliance.
Some heat will always be dissipated in the wiring - whether this
counts as useful heat or waste heat depends on the particular
circumstances. In the worst case, with 4% voltage drop the efficiency
is only 96%.

And then of course efficiency wrt the primary energy source is generally
very poor, maybe only 35% overall (40% generation * 90% transmission *
97% utilisation).

--
Andy

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
Tom wrote:
I have converted part of a detached garage into a office. The floor,
ceiling and all the walls are well insulated and now I've come to the
problem of choosing a heating source. Due the buildings location a rad
from the CH in house is not possible and i don't want one of those
portable gas bottle fires so i guess my only option is an electric
heater. Has anyone tried one of those oil filled electric radiators?
Are they expensive to run and is 2K powerful enough for a room 3m x 4.5m?
Is there anything else on the market that is suitable?


Oil filled rads, cheap convection or electric fan are all suitable.

A lot depends on the way you intend to use it, but I personally like wall
mounted fans up high that push hot air downwards. Like hot air 'curtains'
in shops. these at least suck the hot air from up high and blow it to the
floor where your tootsies are. Blowers also seem to get the place more
evenly heated quicker

2-3KW is totally adequate if the insulation is good. On really icy days,
plug in a 10 quid convector as well if necessary


Thanks for your help guys, i saw a 2.5kw oil rad in b&q earlier today for
£45!! Think I'll buy this and see how i get on.

Tom

In article ,
writes:
On 22 Oct,
(Andrew Gabriel) wrote:

In article ,
The Natural Philosopher writes:

Yes, but electrical generation is only about 50% efficient.

Less than that in this country.

Only thermo-electric. Hydro or wind can be much higher. It's the conversion
from thermal energy to mechanical energy that is inherently inefficient.

Our hydro and wind generation is negligable compared with coal/nuclear/gas.
Our coal and nuclear plant are old and inefficient compared with modern
ones. Our gas plant is newer, but was cheap and inefficient even compared
with what was available at the time.

See http://groups.google.com/group/uk.d-...4a9973c?hl=en&
for a more detailed discussion.

--
Andrew Gabriel

Tom wrote:
"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
Tom wrote:

I have converted part of a detached garage into a office. The floor,
ceiling and all the walls are well insulated and now I've come to the
problem of choosing a heating source. Due the buildings location a rad
from the CH in house is not possible and i don't want one of those
portable gas bottle fires so i guess my only option is an electric
heater. Has anyone tried one of those oil filled electric radiators?
Are they expensive to run and is 2K powerful enough for a room 3m x 4.5m?
Is there anything else on the market that is suitable?

Oil filled rads, cheap convection or electric fan are all suitable.

A lot depends on the way you intend to use it, but I personally like wall
mounted fans up high that push hot air downwards. Like hot air 'curtains'
in shops. these at least suck the hot air from up high and blow it to the
floor where your tootsies are. Blowers also seem to get the place more
evenly heated quicker

2-3KW is totally adequate if the insulation is good. On really icy days,
plug in a 10 quid convector as well if necessary

Thanks for your help guys, i saw a 2.5kw oil rad in b&q earlier today for
£45!! Think I'll buy this and see how i get on.

Tom

You'll almost certainly find it only uses 2.5kW during warm up, and
soon cycles to much lower power, perhaps 500w. It also wont move the
air round, so in all will make a crap room heater at a high price. Get
yourself a fan heater.


NT

In article . com,
writes:
Tom wrote:
"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
Thanks for your help guys, i saw a 2.5kw oil rad in b&q earlier today for
£45!! Think I'll buy this and see how i get on.

Tom
You'll almost certainly find it only uses 2.5kW during warm up, and
soon cycles to much lower power, perhaps 500w. It also wont move the
air round, so in all will make a crap room heater at a high price. Get
yourself a fan heater.

Yes, it's going to have to be very large to be able to give off
2.5kW without the oil heater cycling on and off (thinking how
large 2.5kW of central heating radiator is).

--
Andrew Gabriel

On Sun, 22 Oct 2006 23:38:05 +0100, wrote:

The original Q was about electrical generation. the UK's Thermal generation I
would imagine is no more than 30% efficient.

Slightly above mid 30's would be the worst thermal generation in the
UK, typical of 60's and 70's built coal and oil fired generation. Top
end for these is about 38%.

High 40's to mid's 50's is typical of 1990's gas fired generation.
Very recent gas fired generation is even higher, 60% for instance in
the case of Baglan Bay.

--

On Mon, 23 Oct 2006 13:25:06 +0100, Matt
wrote:

On Sun, 22 Oct 2006 23:38:05 +0100, wrote:

The original Q was about electrical generation. the UK's Thermal generation I
would imagine is no more than 30% efficient.

Slightly above mid 30's would be the worst thermal generation in the
UK, typical of 60's and 70's built coal and oil fired generation. Top
end for these is about 38%.

High 40's to mid's 50's is typical of 1990's gas fired generation.
Very recent gas fired generation is even higher, 60% for instance in
the case of Baglan Bay.

You are not comparing like to like re Baglan Bay. This is a CGT
system of limited capacity (500MW) I believe whereas the large steam
turbine stations are 3000MW plus with efficiencies, as you say, in the
upper 30s. I stick my neck out and say that steam turbine stations do
not exceed 40% efficiency (latent heat and all that jazz!).

On Sat, 21 Oct 2006 22:33:55 +0100 someone who may be "Tom"
wrote this:-

I have converted part of a detached garage into a office. The floor,
ceiling and all the walls are well insulated and now I've come to the
problem of choosing a heating source.

Are you thinking long term or short term?

Short term, if you have an off-peak electricity supply, a storage
heater will be cheap to install and reasonable to run. Peak
electricity is best avoided for heating.

Long term, the options people have mentioned all have attractions,
though heat pumps running on peak electricity are rather more
expensive than ones which charge up some heat storage. Gas and water
can be run to the garage just like electricity, so extending the
existing heating and a gas fire are all possible. Remember that if
you run such services into the garage then you need to think about
the earthing of the electrical supply.


--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

In article ,
Edward W. Thompson writes:
On Mon, 23 Oct 2006 13:25:06 +0100, Matt
wrote:

On Sun, 22 Oct 2006 23:38:05 +0100, wrote:

The original Q was about electrical generation. the UK's Thermal generation I
would imagine is no more than 30% efficient.

Slightly above mid 30's would be the worst thermal generation in the
UK, typical of 60's and 70's built coal and oil fired generation. Top
end for these is about 38%.

High 40's to mid's 50's is typical of 1990's gas fired generation.
Very recent gas fired generation is even higher, 60% for instance in
the case of Baglan Bay.

You are not comparing like to like re Baglan Bay. This is a CGT
system of limited capacity (500MW) I believe whereas the large steam
turbine stations are 3000MW plus with efficiencies, as you say, in the
upper 30s. I stick my neck out and say that steam turbine stations do
not exceed 40% efficiency (latent heat and all that jazz!).

You are correct. A number of the 1990's gas power stations actually
struggled hitting even 35%. Gas was dirt cheap and the owners were
after a fast return. Spending money on energy efficiency just wasn't
on the agenda.

--
Andrew Gabriel

On Tue, 24 Oct 2006 08:27:07 +0100, Edward W. Thompson
wrote:

On Mon, 23 Oct 2006 13:25:06 +0100, Matt
wrote:

On Sun, 22 Oct 2006 23:38:05 +0100, wrote:

The original Q was about electrical generation. the UK's Thermal generation I
would imagine is no more than 30% efficient.

Slightly above mid 30's would be the worst thermal generation in the
UK, typical of 60's and 70's built coal and oil fired generation. Top
end for these is about 38%.

High 40's to mid's 50's is typical of 1990's gas fired generation.
Very recent gas fired generation is even higher, 60% for instance in
the case of Baglan Bay.

You are not comparing like to like re Baglan Bay. This is a CGT
system of limited capacity (500MW) I believe whereas the large steam
turbine stations are 3000MW plus with efficiencies, as you say, in the
upper 30s. I stick my neck out and say that steam turbine stations do
not exceed 40% efficiency (latent heat and all that jazz!).

The size of the boiler/turbine unit "generator" makes absolutely no
difference to it's efficiency. For a long, long time 120MW units
built in the 50's were (marginally) 2nd only to the 660MW units built
in the early 80's and notably above the majority of 500MW units built
in the 60's. Design and operating regime pay a much bigger part than
sheer size. There is no need to stick you neck out "steam turbine
stations" by which I *think* you might mean oil or coal fired
generation in the UK has an absolute ceiling at around 38%, basic
thermodynamics won't allow any more. More efficient heat recovery,
use of process heat, and the use of low pressure turbine blade
materials that don't get mashed to bits by wet steam were the big
changes when gas fired generation appeared.



--

Matt wrote:
On Tue, 24 Oct 2006 08:27:07 +0100, Edward W. Thompson
wrote:

On Mon, 23 Oct 2006 13:25:06 +0100, Matt
wrote:

On Sun, 22 Oct 2006 23:38:05 +0100, wrote:

The original Q was about electrical generation. the UK's Thermal generation I
would imagine is no more than 30% efficient.
Slightly above mid 30's would be the worst thermal generation in the
UK, typical of 60's and 70's built coal and oil fired generation. Top
end for these is about 38%.

High 40's to mid's 50's is typical of 1990's gas fired generation.
Very recent gas fired generation is even higher, 60% for instance in
the case of Baglan Bay.
You are not comparing like to like re Baglan Bay. This is a CGT
system of limited capacity (500MW) I believe whereas the large steam
turbine stations are 3000MW plus with efficiencies, as you say, in the
upper 30s. I stick my neck out and say that steam turbine stations do
not exceed 40% efficiency (latent heat and all that jazz!).

The size of the boiler/turbine unit "generator" makes absolutely no
difference to it's efficiency. For a long, long time 120MW units
built in the 50's were (marginally) 2nd only to the 660MW units built
in the early 80's and notably above the majority of 500MW units built
in the 60's. Design and operating regime pay a much bigger part than
sheer size. There is no need to stick you neck out "steam turbine
stations" by which I *think* you might mean oil or coal fired
generation in the UK has an absolute ceiling at around 38%, basic
thermodynamics won't allow any more.

They will.

There is no theroetical limit apart from the difference between the
actual working fluid temperatures and the exhaust temperatures. With
condensing turbines and superheated front ends you can get a lot higher
than that - at a cost in complexity and of course corrosion issues.

If you tap off the low grade heat for heating buildings etc, of course
you can do even better.


More efficient heat recovery,
use of process heat, and the use of low pressure turbine blade
materials that don't get mashed to bits by wet steam were the big
changes when gas fired generation appeared.


Gas plants are built for cheap, not for efficiency.