What are the advantages and disadvantages of gate valves and full-bore Ball
valves for mains water, and isolating parts of a CH system.
--

Graham.

"Graham" wrote in message ...
What are the advantages and disadvantages of gate valves and full-bore
Ball valves for mains water, and isolating parts of a CH system.

A ball valve is to set the level of water in a header tank, a gate valve is
use to shut off or allow a flow of water.

Two completely different uses.

Alan

--

Graham.

"Graham" wrote in message ...
What are the advantages and disadvantages of gate valves and full-bore
Ball valves for mains water, and isolating parts of a CH system.
--

Graham.

gate valves 'let by' and sometimes drop their 'gate' from the thread -

--
(º·.¸(¨*·.¸ ¸.·*¨)¸.·º)
.·°·. NIK .·°·.
(¸.·º(¸.·¨* *¨·.¸)º·.¸)

On Sun, 20 Aug 2006 22:01:51 UTC, "Alan Holmes"
wrote:


"Graham" wrote in message ...
What are the advantages and disadvantages of gate valves and full-bore
Ball valves for mains water, and isolating parts of a CH system.

A ball valve is to set the level of water in a header tank, a gate valve is
use to shut off or allow a flow of water.

Two completely different uses.

Not the ball valve he means. The construction is similar to the small
service valves one should fit in the feed to things. A rotating
spherical shell in a spherical chamber, with holes that rotate in line
with the pipes to open, and reverse to close.

To answer the OP, although others will know more...ball valves (in this
context) give full flow, as do gate valves. Only ball valves give no
flow; gate valves (a) leak a bit and (b) tend to jam. They're also much
slower to operate.

--
The information contained in this post is copyright the
poster, and specifically may not be published in, or used by
Avenue Supplies, http://avenuesupplies.co.uk

On 2006-08-20 23:01:51 +0100, "Alan Holmes" said:


"Graham" wrote in message ...
What are the advantages and disadvantages of gate valves and full-bore
Ball valves for mains water, and isolating parts of a CH system.

A ball valve is to set the level of water in a header tank, a gate
valve is use to shut off or allow a flow of water.

Two completely different uses.

Alan

Not quite. There is such a thing as a lever ball valve and it is a
good choice instead of a gate valve

Ball type float valves are deprecated technology

On 20 Aug 2006 22:15:01 GMT, "Bob Eager" wrote:

On Sun, 20 Aug 2006 22:01:51 UTC, "Alan Holmes"
wrote:


"Graham" wrote in message ...
What are the advantages and disadvantages of gate valves and full-bore
Ball valves for mains water, and isolating parts of a CH system.

A ball valve is to set the level of water in a header tank, a gate valve is
use to shut off or allow a flow of water.

Two completely different uses.

Not the ball valve he means. The construction is similar to the small
service valves one should fit in the feed to things. A rotating
spherical shell in a spherical chamber, with holes that rotate in line
with the pipes to open, and reverse to close.

A "globe" valve in fact. If there is sediment in the water a globe
valve is probably better, since a gate valve may have difficulty
seating properly in the presence of sludge.

--
Frank Erskine
Sunderland

NikV wrote:
"Graham" wrote in message ...

What are the advantages and disadvantages of gate valves and full-bore
Ball valves for mains water, and isolating parts of a CH system.

gate valves 'let by' and sometimes drop their 'gate' from the thread -

given the list of cons mentioned, why r they used?


NT

On 20 Aug 2006 16:09:36 -0700, wrote:

NikV wrote:
"Graham" wrote in message ...

What are the advantages and disadvantages of gate valves and full-bore
Ball valves for mains water, and isolating parts of a CH system.

gate valves 'let by' and sometimes drop their 'gate' from the thread -

given the list of cons mentioned, why r they used?

They're cheap :-)

--
Frank Erskine

Frank Erskine wrote:
given the list of cons mentioned, why r they used?

They're cheap :-)


they're crap.
Plumbers are old fashioned and dont like to change to easy fittings.

I am referring to flexible hose connections for whb's and flexible
waste pipes etc
they can be fitted in a few minutes whereas bending copper and cutting
and joining pipes makes a big job out of a little one.

I always use the ball valve now for sheer convenience and ease of
opening.
gate valves almost always are stuck and you never know if they are open
or closed.

Thanks for the replies, They mostly confirmed my gut thoughts about the
matter.

One follow-up if I may?

What about radiator lockshield (and non-TRV) valves?
they are usually, if not always gate valves, and most of mine have weeping
steams if not kept fully open.
Are gate valves preferred for this application because they are better at
controlling the flow i.e. nether fully open nor closed?



--

Graham.

%Profound_observation%

wrote:

Frank Erskine wrote:
given the list of cons mentioned, why r they used?

They're cheap :-)



they're crap.
Plumbers are old fashioned and dont like to change to easy fittings.

There is one case where they are useful, and that is when you want to
accurately regulate flow (i.e. balancing different zones in CH system).
You get better fine control with a gate valve than with a quarter turn
ball valve

I always use the ball valve now for sheer convenience and ease of
opening.
gate valves almost always are stuck and you never know if they are open
or closed.

Yup, for use as service valves they are pants.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

Graham wrote:

Thanks for the replies, They mostly confirmed my gut thoughts about the
matter.

One follow-up if I may?

What about radiator lockshield (and non-TRV) valves?
they are usually, if not always gate valves, and most of mine have weeping
steams if not kept fully open.
Are gate valves preferred for this application because they are better at
controlling the flow i.e. nether fully open nor closed?

Yup.

(You may be able to repack the valve gland with grease to stop them
weeping when partially open)

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 2006-08-21 00:09:36 +0100, said:

NikV wrote:
"Graham" wrote in message ...

What are the advantages and disadvantages of gate valves and full-bore
Ball valves for mains water, and isolating parts of a CH system.

gate valves 'let by' and sometimes drop their 'gate' from the thread -

given the list of cons mentioned, why r they used?


NT

Because they always were and plumbers are not renowned for progressive
thinking.

On 2006-08-21 00:12:28 +0100, Frank Erskine
said:

On 20 Aug 2006 16:09:36 -0700, wrote:

NikV wrote:
"Graham" wrote in message ...

What are the advantages and disadvantages of gate valves and full-bore
Ball valves for mains water, and isolating parts of a CH system.

gate valves 'let by' and sometimes drop their 'gate' from the thread -

given the list of cons mentioned, why r they used?

They're cheap :-)

Although the delta between these and ball valves is now pretty low....

In article ,
"Graham" writes:
Thanks for the replies, They mostly confirmed my gut thoughts about the
matter.

One follow-up if I may?

What about radiator lockshield (and non-TRV) valves?
they are usually, if not always gate valves,

Actually, they aren't gate valves.

and most of mine have weeping
steams if not kept fully open.

That's a different problem -- the stuffing box wants
repacking (might just get away with tightening down
the nut, if you can find a compromise where the valve
can still be turned, but it stops leaking). Usually,
you have to dismantle to clean up the shaft once it's
been leaking, as the shaft will have become encrusted
which also prevents sealing.

Given how cheap these valves are, it's probably not
worth bothering to repair one nowadays.

Are gate valves preferred for this application because they are better at
controlling the flow i.e. nether fully open nor closed?

Gate values are good for controlling flow, where you
might want them fully open with minimum pressure drop.
They aren't good at sealing off, particularly dirty
water. (Generally you do want radiator valves to be
able to seal off.)

--
Andrew Gabriel

On 2006-08-21 00:57:49 +0100, "Graham" said:

Thanks for the replies, They mostly confirmed my gut thoughts about the matter.

One follow-up if I may?

What about radiator lockshield (and non-TRV) valves?
they are usually, if not always gate valves, and most of mine have
weeping steams if not kept fully open.
Are gate valves preferred for this application because they are better
at controlling the flow i.e. nether fully open nor closed?

They tend to be a washer on the end of a plunger which progressively
closes the gap to the seat as it goes down - by rotation or being
pushed by a pin in the case of a TRV. The range of operation is
achieved with quite small movement - about 3-4mm.

If you have weeping valves it is because they are worn out or were crap
in the first place. You can go round tightening them and packing
them, but IME it doesn't last.

I would have a blitz and replace the lot - it's do-able easily in a
morning. Also, I would recommend getting good quality valves. They
cost a little more, but when you consider the time and cost of
replacing inhibitor after draining to fix one valve, it's worth it.

I did this exercise a few years ago and used Pegler Terrier valves for
the lockshields and Drayton TRV4s for the TRVs. For the
lockshields you can get them with a drain connection on the radiator
side of the valve. This is useful and a lot less messy when taking
radiators off for decorating etc.

On Mon, 21 Aug 2006 08:15:46 +0100, Andy Hall wrote:

when you consider the time and cost of replacing inhibitor after
draining to fix one valve, it's worth it.

You don't *need* to drain down to change valves, assuming a normal open
vented system. Get the plug set for blocking the vent pipe and cold feed
and a some old towels to catch the small amount of seepage and away you
go.

I'd also shut the valve at the other end of the radiator as well and any
zone isolation valves just make sure. When doing this it is vital that
you only open the system at one point at a time, *never* two...

--
Cheers
Dave. pam is missing e-mail

In article ,
Andy Hall wrote:
Ball type float valves are deprecated technology

Maybe, but they are *far* more reliable than Torbeck type ones.

--
*I used to have an open mind but my brains kept falling out *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Bob Eager wrote:


To answer the OP, although others will know more...ball valves (in this
context) give full flow, as do gate valves. Only ball valves give no
flow; gate valves (a) leak a bit and (b) tend to jam. They're also much
slower to operate.


IME neither gives full flow.

Ball valves can leak too.

given the list of cons mentioned, why r they used?

They're not used in my house. Ball valves (either lever full bore or small
bore isolation) or nothing. Even my main stopcock is a full bore lever ball
valve.

Christian.

Andy Hall wrote:

If you have weeping valves it is because they are worn out or were crap
in the first place. You can go round tightening them and packing them,
but IME it doesn't last.

I would have a blitz and replace the lot - it's do-able easily in a
morning. Also, I would recommend getting good quality valves. They
cost a little more, but when you consider the time and cost of replacing
inhibitor after draining to fix one valve, it's worth it.

I inherited a system with the valves being female at both ends (rad and
pipework). Does anyone know if such things are still available? When I
have to do it, it's going to be tricky to change the connectors on some
of the pipes:-(

Douglas de Lacey

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

Ball type float valves are deprecated technology

Maybe, but they are *far* more reliable than Torbeck type ones.

Depends on your water. if lime isn't a probem, then a Torbeck will
out-last the rubber seat of a traditional ball valve.

I always fit Torbecks to toilets because they fill faster (flow isn't
throttled gradually as the cistern fills). I don't bother to use them
for header tanks though.

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On 2006-08-20 23:01:51 +0100, "Alan Holmes" said:


"Graham" wrote in message
...
What are the advantages and disadvantages of gate valves and full-bore
Ball valves for mains water, and isolating parts of a CH system.

A ball valve is to set the level of water in a header tank, a gate valve
is use to shut off or allow a flow of water.

Two completely different uses.

Alan

Not quite. There is such a thing as a lever ball valve and it is a good
choice instead of a gate valve

Ball type float valves are deprecated technology

So what is the alternative to control the level in a water tank?

Ball type float valves are deprecated technology

So what is the alternative to control the level in a water tank?

Generally, the alternative these days is not to have water tanks, except
toilet cisterns.

Assuming this is not possible, you can use other types of float valve, such
as Torbeck or Fluidmaster.

Christian.

In article .com,
wrote:
Ball type float valves are deprecated technology

Maybe, but they are *far* more reliable than Torbeck type ones.

Depends on your water. if lime isn't a probem, then a Torbeck will
out-last the rubber seat of a traditional ball valve.

I do live in a soft water area, though. But I'm not sure about outlast or
if that matters given a ball valve rubber can last 25 years plus. I do
know the one Torbeck I have has needed attention several times while the
ball valves seem to go on for ever.

I always fit Torbecks to toilets because they fill faster (flow isn't
throttled gradually as the cistern fills). I don't bother to use them
for header tanks though.

--
*Why don't you ever see the headline "Psychic Wins Lottery"?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Mon, 21 Aug 2006 14:06:37 UTC, "Alan Holmes"
wrote:

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On 2006-08-20 23:01:51 +0100, "Alan Holmes" said:


"Graham" wrote in message
...
What are the advantages and disadvantages of gate valves and full-bore
Ball valves for mains water, and isolating parts of a CH system.

A ball valve is to set the level of water in a header tank, a gate valve
is use to shut off or allow a flow of water.

Two completely different uses.

Alan

Not quite. There is such a thing as a lever ball valve and it is a good
choice instead of a gate valve

Ball type float valves are deprecated technology

So what is the alternative to control the level in a water tank?

Torbeck.

--
The information contained in this post is copyright the
poster, and specifically may not be published in, or used by
Avenue Supplies, http://avenuesupplies.co.uk

In article ,
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
I do live in a soft water area

Make that hard water area. ;-(

--
*Gravity is a myth, the earth sucks *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 2006-08-21 15:50:32 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)"
said:

In article .com,
wrote:
Ball type float valves are deprecated technology

Maybe, but they are *far* more reliable than Torbeck type ones.

Depends on your water. if lime isn't a probem, then a Torbeck will
out-last the rubber seat of a traditional ball valve.

I do live in a soft water area, though. But I'm not sure about outlast or
if that matters given a ball valve rubber can last 25 years plus. I do
know the one Torbeck I have has needed attention several times while the
ball valves seem to go on for ever.


Usually crud in the mains and easily filtered out...

On 2006-08-21 19:23:47 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)"
said:

In article ,
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
I do live in a soft water area

Make that hard water area. ;-(


It didn't seem right unless you had a Quills water softener.