(First a story, mainly ranting and letting off steam, then there's a
question at the end)

Just bought a pair of Pump Ball Valves (screwfix id 13885) and a Pegler
Terrier Circulating Pump - TC5 (screwfix id 67174) to replace an ageing
and
noisy central heating pump. Didn't intend to use the Ball Valves - rather
hoping to re-use the originals, and isolate the pump with those for a 10
minute replacement job, bought them simply to bugger up Murphy's law and
use
as back-up, well, they were cheap.

Four Hours; Four Sodding Hours. That's how long to try to remove old pump,
go out to B&Q with nut off new valve to get big-chuffing-spanner, then to
Wickes, then Machine Mart, then finally to a pretty testosterone-pumping
real tool shop. All to no avail, cannot get anything of fixed size to fit
the 40-something mm across-flats nut on the ball valve. Did get an
eye-catching 32mm open ended spanner (that's good for the 22mm side of the
valve, also, causes any number of yobs on street corner to pass on to the
other side of the road - hey, it's a Big Spanner), and a rather more
robust
adjustable wrench for the Big Nut. "Job's a good-un", I thought.

Thirty minutes later, with the best (and newest) tools to hand, could I
shift the Big Nuts on the original Ball Valves attached to pipework and
original pump?, could I buggery. We're talking
full-arm-shaking-pipe-rattling force here, of a 30-something 6 foot male.
Could remove the compression fittings onto the 22mm pipework (Big Spanner
to
the rescue), but no play in pipework to allow the pipes to be removed from
Ball Valves, and still no hope in hell of removing the Big Nuts from the
Ball Valves to slip the old pump out (previous problem with a leak from a
3-port-valve did, I think, cause a lot of the problems resulting in
corrosion between Ball Valve and Big Nut).

Finally, undid both compression nuts (top and bottom Ball Valve - pump's
aligned vertically) and hack-sawed through one of the compression fittings
to allow all components to slide off the existing, non-moveable pipework.

That's when the real fun started...

Having now had to drain the system to get the original ball valves off the
pipework / pump, and replaced with the screwfix ones I try to mate the
pump,
and tighten Big Nuts. Nuts (or ********, if you prefer) - would they
thread
onto the pump?, have a guess. Had to remove one of the Ball Valves to
prove
to myself that the threads were compatible - they were. The problem seems
to
be that the Big Nut will only sit properly, and flush, once it is fully
in
place past the valve actuator on the Ball-Valve, that is, in its final
position. Problem - if there's (for example) a pump already in place
between
two of these Ball Valves, tight fit and all with non-malleable pipework,
then you cannot easily (more later) offer the Big Nut upto the thread on
the
pump housing without risking cross-threading the nut.

Looking at the mangled remains of the old pump it appears the original
installation suffered much of the same problems (with apparent
cross-threading on one of the Ball Valves).

Examining the Ball Valves (I did a lot of this between cursing and
screaming) its quite obvious that there is a design flaw that prevents the
nut seating properly unless it can move freely to the end of its travel,
something not possible with a pump / thread in its way. In the end, I had
to
resort to a combination of straining the pipework (bound to fail, now,
expecting leaks by the morning) and forcing the nut onto the thread of the
pump using a strong pair of hefty pliars. In the end, a 10 minute job took
me 4 hrs.

SO

The question is... for someone with experience of plumbing and central
heating... Just what is the trick of the trade to mating the Ball Valves
to
the pump bodies?, I imagine with play in the pipework it would be fairly
straight-forward, but for existing installations, with no such play, how
do
the Pro's handle this?



--
I am using the free version of SPAMfighter for private users.
It has removed 3057 spam emails to date.
Paying users do not have this message in their emails.
Try www.SPAMfighter.com for free now!

"Mike Dodd" wrote in message
...
(First a story, mainly ranting and letting off steam, then there's a
question at the end)

Just bought a pair of Pump Ball Valves (screwfix id 13885) and a Pegler
Terrier Circulating Pump - TC5 (screwfix id 67174) to replace an ageing
and
noisy central heating pump. Didn't intend to use the Ball Valves - rather
hoping to re-use the originals, and isolate the pump with those for a 10
minute replacement job, bought them simply to bugger up Murphy's law and
use
as back-up, well, they were cheap.

Four Hours; Four Sodding Hours. That's how long to try to remove old pump,
go out to B&Q with nut off new valve to get big-chuffing-spanner, then to
Wickes, then Machine Mart, then finally to a pretty testosterone-pumping
real tool shop. All to no avail, cannot get anything of fixed size to fit
the 40-something mm across-flats nut on the ball valve. Did get an
eye-catching 32mm open ended spanner (that's good for the 22mm side of the
valve, also, causes any number of yobs on street corner to pass on to the
other side of the road - hey, it's a Big Spanner), and a rather more
robust
adjustable wrench for the Big Nut. "Job's a good-un", I thought.

Thirty minutes later, with the best (and newest) tools to hand, could I
shift the Big Nuts on the original Ball Valves attached to pipework and
original pump?, could I buggery. We're talking
full-arm-shaking-pipe-rattling force here, of a 30-something 6 foot male.
Could remove the compression fittings onto the 22mm pipework (Big Spanner
to
the rescue), but no play in pipework to allow the pipes to be removed from
Ball Valves, and still no hope in hell of removing the Big Nuts from the
Ball Valves to slip the old pump out (previous problem with a leak from a
3-port-valve did, I think, cause a lot of the problems resulting in
corrosion between Ball Valve and Big Nut).


Your is a sad tale so you probably won't appreciate being told you would
have done better with a small hammer and lots of gentle percussion on the
corner of one of the accessible flats of the union nut. With a modicum of
practice this becomes second nature to folks who do this job regularly.


Finally, undid both compression nuts (top and bottom Ball Valve - pump's
aligned vertically) and hack-sawed through one of the compression fittings
to allow all components to slide off the existing, non-moveable pipework.

That's when the real fun started...

Having now had to drain the system to get the original ball valves off the
pipework / pump, and replaced with the screwfix ones I try to mate the
pump,
and tighten Big Nuts. Nuts (or ********, if you prefer) - would they
thread
onto the pump?, have a guess. Had to remove one of the Ball Valves to
prove
to myself that the threads were compatible - they were. The problem seems
to
be that the Big Nut will only sit properly, and flush, once it is fully
in
place past the valve actuator on the Ball-Valve, that is, in its final
position. Problem - if there's (for example) a pump already in place
between
two of these Ball Valves, tight fit and all with non-malleable pipework,
then you cannot easily (more later) offer the Big Nut upto the thread on
the
pump housing without risking cross-threading the nut.

Looking at the mangled remains of the old pump it appears the original
installation suffered much of the same problems (with apparent
cross-threading on one of the Ball Valves).

Two comments here. First ball valves are Crap with a capital C. After a few
years in position the ball corrodes such that when closed off then reopened
they almost always leak around the spindle.
I use gate valve type unions as they have a nippable gland and so avoid this
situation. OK sometimes they weep by when closed but its controllable if you
work quickly



Examining the Ball Valves (I did a lot of this between cursing and
screaming) its quite obvious that there is a design flaw that prevents the
nut seating properly unless it can move freely to the end of its travel,
something not possible with a pump / thread in its way. In the end, I had
to
resort to a combination of straining the pipework (bound to fail, now,
expecting leaks by the morning) and forcing the nut onto the thread of the
pump using a strong pair of hefty pliars. In the end, a 10 minute job took
me 4 hrs.

The particular pair you got must be a bit unusual as the problem you
describe here is not common in my experience.
(Gets worse doesn't it?)


SO

The question is... for someone with experience of plumbing and central
heating... Just what is the trick of the trade to mating the Ball Valves
to
the pump bodies?, I imagine with play in the pipework it would be fairly
straight-forward, but for existing installations, with no such play, how
do
the Pro's handle this?


Install with a smoothly sliding fit between the faces of the unions:-)

They install the pump valves first and then slide the pump into place and
tighten the enormous no spanner available nuts with a pump spanner. If you
had applied heat to the nuts ( after draining the system ) they would have
come off easier

P.S.

The rant amused me no end. I can visualise you attacking the " I'm not
coming off for anyone pump" and wondering how those "overpaid" heating
engineers do it with such ease. By the way how much did all those tools cost
you?


"Mike Dodd" wrote in message
...
(First a story, mainly ranting and letting off steam, then there's a
question at the end)

Just bought a pair of Pump Ball Valves (screwfix id 13885) and a Pegler
Terrier Circulating Pump - TC5 (screwfix id 67174) to replace an ageing
and
noisy central heating pump. Didn't intend to use the Ball Valves - rather
hoping to re-use the originals, and isolate the pump with those for a 10
minute replacement job, bought them simply to bugger up Murphy's law and
use
as back-up, well, they were cheap.

Four Hours; Four Sodding Hours. That's how long to try to remove old pump,
go out to B&Q with nut off new valve to get big-chuffing-spanner, then to
Wickes, then Machine Mart, then finally to a pretty testosterone-pumping
real tool shop. All to no avail, cannot get anything of fixed size to fit
the 40-something mm across-flats nut on the ball valve. Did get an
eye-catching 32mm open ended spanner (that's good for the 22mm side of the
valve, also, causes any number of yobs on street corner to pass on to the
other side of the road - hey, it's a Big Spanner), and a rather more
robust
adjustable wrench for the Big Nut. "Job's a good-un", I thought.

Thirty minutes later, with the best (and newest) tools to hand, could I
shift the Big Nuts on the original Ball Valves attached to pipework and
original pump?, could I buggery. We're talking
full-arm-shaking-pipe-rattling force here, of a 30-something 6 foot male.
Could remove the compression fittings onto the 22mm pipework (Big Spanner
to
the rescue), but no play in pipework to allow the pipes to be removed from
Ball Valves, and still no hope in hell of removing the Big Nuts from the
Ball Valves to slip the old pump out (previous problem with a leak from a
3-port-valve did, I think, cause a lot of the problems resulting in
corrosion between Ball Valve and Big Nut).

Finally, undid both compression nuts (top and bottom Ball Valve - pump's
aligned vertically) and hack-sawed through one of the compression fittings
to allow all components to slide off the existing, non-moveable pipework.

That's when the real fun started...

Having now had to drain the system to get the original ball valves off the
pipework / pump, and replaced with the screwfix ones I try to mate the
pump,
and tighten Big Nuts. Nuts (or ********, if you prefer) - would they
thread
onto the pump?, have a guess. Had to remove one of the Ball Valves to
prove
to myself that the threads were compatible - they were. The problem seems
to
be that the Big Nut will only sit properly, and flush, once it is fully
in
place past the valve actuator on the Ball-Valve, that is, in its final
position. Problem - if there's (for example) a pump already in place
between
two of these Ball Valves, tight fit and all with non-malleable pipework,
then you cannot easily (more later) offer the Big Nut upto the thread on
the
pump housing without risking cross-threading the nut.

Looking at the mangled remains of the old pump it appears the original
installation suffered much of the same problems (with apparent
cross-threading on one of the Ball Valves).

Examining the Ball Valves (I did a lot of this between cursing and
screaming) its quite obvious that there is a design flaw that prevents the
nut seating properly unless it can move freely to the end of its travel,
something not possible with a pump / thread in its way. In the end, I had
to
resort to a combination of straining the pipework (bound to fail, now,
expecting leaks by the morning) and forcing the nut onto the thread of the
pump using a strong pair of hefty pliars. In the end, a 10 minute job took
me 4 hrs.

SO

The question is... for someone with experience of plumbing and central
heating... Just what is the trick of the trade to mating the Ball Valves
to
the pump bodies?, I imagine with play in the pipework it would be fairly
straight-forward, but for existing installations, with no such play, how
do
the Pro's handle this?



--
I am using the free version of SPAMfighter for private users.
It has removed 3057 spam emails to date.
Paying users do not have this message in their emails.
Try www.SPAMfighter.com for free now!

In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
Mike Dodd wrote:

(First a story, mainly ranting and letting off steam, then there's a
question at the end)

Just bought a pair of Pump Ball Valves (screwfix id 13885) and a
Pegler Terrier Circulating Pump - TC5 (screwfix id 67174) to replace
an ageing and
noisy central heating pump. Didn't intend to use the Ball Valves -
rather hoping to re-use the originals, and isolate the pump with
those for a 10 minute replacement job, bought them simply to bugger
up Murphy's law and use
as back-up, well, they were cheap.

SNIP

The question is... for someone with experience of plumbing and central
heating... Just what is the trick of the trade to mating the Ball
Valves to
the pump bodies?, I imagine with play in the pipework it would be
fairly straight-forward, but for existing installations, with no
such play, how do
the Pro's handle this?

The valves which you bought do look exceptionally tight in terms of
interference between the big nut and the ball spindle. The equivalent Peglar
valves - albeit at 8 quid a pair - do appear to have much more room to
manoeuvre - as do the gate valves shown.

In order to be able to swap a pump easily, you need to be able to undo the
nuts in parallel fashion until they are clear of the joining flange. If you
can't, the valves are not fit for purpose!
--
Cheers,
Set Square
______
Please reply to newsgroup. Reply address is invalid.

"ski" wrote in message
...
They install the pump valves first and then slide the pump into place
and
tighten the enormous no spanner available nuts with a pump spanner. If
you
had applied heat to the nuts ( after draining the system ) they would
have
come off easier

P.S.

The rant amused me no end. I can visualise you attacking the " I'm not
coming off for anyone pump" and wondering how those "overpaid" heating
engineers do it with such ease. By the way how much did all those tools
cost
you?


LOL, okay, the tools £10 for the 32mm, and £18 for the 300mm adjustable,
the
difference between buying the pump from Screwfix and buying from B&Q; I do
try to pay for the right tool for the job on the assumption that I (or
someone I know) will find it useful in future.

And yes, the rant was a way to calm myself down by looking at the funny
side
of the whole thing.


--
I am using the free version of SPAMfighter for private users.
It has removed 3077 spam emails to date.
Paying users do not have this message in their emails.
Try www.SPAMfighter.com for free now!

Your is a sad tale so you probably won't appreciate being told you would
have done better with a small hammer and lots of gentle percussion on the
corner of one of the accessible flats of the union nut. With a modicum of
practice this becomes second nature to folks who do this job regularly.


Noted for future reference, along with other's suggestion of heat.



Finally, undid both compression nuts (top and bottom Ball Valve - pump's
aligned vertically) and hack-sawed through one of the compression
fittings
to allow all components to slide off the existing, non-moveable pipework.

That's when the real fun started...

Having now had to drain the system to get the original ball valves off
the
pipework / pump, and replaced with the screwfix ones I try to mate the
pump,
and tighten Big Nuts. Nuts (or ********, if you prefer) - would they
thread
onto the pump?, have a guess. Had to remove one of the Ball Valves to
prove
to myself that the threads were compatible - they were. The problem seems
to
be that the Big Nut will only sit properly, and flush, once it is fully
in
place past the valve actuator on the Ball-Valve, that is, in its final
position. Problem - if there's (for example) a pump already in place
between
two of these Ball Valves, tight fit and all with non-malleable pipework,
then you cannot easily (more later) offer the Big Nut upto the thread on
the
pump housing without risking cross-threading the nut.

Looking at the mangled remains of the old pump it appears the original
installation suffered much of the same problems (with apparent
cross-threading on one of the Ball Valves).

Two comments here. First ball valves are Crap with a capital C. After a
few years in position the ball corrodes such that when closed off then
reopened they almost always leak around the spindle.
I use gate valve type unions as they have a nippable gland and so avoid
this situation. OK sometimes they weep by when closed but its controllable
if you work quickly

Original ball valves were weeping a little, or were after I tried shutting
them off. Rest of system controlled by gate valves, although even with all
"off" I still got a feed somehow from the cistern, guess one didn't close

The particular pair you got must be a bit unusual as the problem you
describe here is not common in my experience.
(Gets worse doesn't it?)

Ah, that answers my question... I was about to hit the rush-hour and speed
over to Wickes for a replacement pair in the vane hope that they'd work
better when I finally got the 2nd on.



SO

The question is... for someone with experience of plumbing and central
heating... Just what is the trick of the trade to mating the Ball Valves
to
the pump bodies?, I imagine with play in the pipework it would be fairly
straight-forward, but for existing installations, with no such play, how
do
the Pro's handle this?


Install with a smoothly sliding fit between the faces of the unions:-)

Bah!, where's the fun in that

Regards

" wrote in message
...
In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
Mike Dodd wrote:

(First a story, mainly ranting and letting off steam, then there's a
question at the end)

Just bought a pair of Pump Ball Valves (screwfix id 13885) and a
Pegler Terrier Circulating Pump - TC5 (screwfix id 67174) to replace
an ageing and
noisy central heating pump. Didn't intend to use the Ball Valves -
rather hoping to re-use the originals, and isolate the pump with
those for a 10 minute replacement job, bought them simply to bugger
up Murphy's law and use
as back-up, well, they were cheap.

SNIP

The question is... for someone with experience of plumbing and central
heating... Just what is the trick of the trade to mating the Ball
Valves to
the pump bodies?, I imagine with play in the pipework it would be
fairly straight-forward, but for existing installations, with no
such play, how do
the Pro's handle this?

The valves which you bought do look exceptionally tight in terms of
interference between the big nut and the ball spindle. The equivalent
Peglar
valves - albeit at 8 quid a pair - do appear to have much more room to
manoeuvre - as do the gate valves shown.

In order to be able to swap a pump easily, you need to be able to undo the
nuts in parallel fashion until they are clear of the joining flange. If
you
can't, the valves are not fit for purpose!

Yes, upon reflection, the Peglars would have been a better choice, but I was
being a tight-arse and didn't think I'd need them. Oh well, live and learn.

Mike Dodd wrote:


"ski" wrote in message
...
They install the pump valves first and then slide the pump into place
and
tighten the enormous no spanner available nuts with a pump spanner. If
you
had applied heat to the nuts ( after draining the system ) they would
have
come off easier

P.S.

The rant amused me no end. I can visualise you attacking the " I'm not
coming off for anyone pump" and wondering how those "overpaid" heating
engineers do it with such ease. By the way how much did all those tools
cost
you?


LOL, okay, the tools £10 for the 32mm, and £18 for the 300mm adjustable,
the
difference between buying the pump from Screwfix and buying from B&Q; I do
try to pay for the right tool for the job on the assumption that I (or
someone I know) will find it useful in future.

Screwfix do a F*** Off great water pump-type pliers which will grip the
union nuts on a CH pump. B&Q do one too, but screwfix's is about half the
price - about £17 compared to £30 or so.

However there are always situations in which you can't get whatever tools
you have onto the fitting you want to dismantle, or can't get enough force
on it to shift it (or it's just plain welded up) and end up having to cut
out and re-do more of the pipework either side.

Your story illustrates why I personally don't quote fixed prices for jobs
like this: if I allowed for half of the gotchas which could arise the price
would sound like something off Rogue Traders, and if I quote for how much
it should take if all goes well I'm liable to end up catching the mother of
all colds when it goes TU.

I am using the free version of SPAMfighter for private users.
It has removed 3077 spam emails to date.
Paying users do not have this message in their emails.
Try www.SPAMfighter.com for free now!

I am using Mozilla which is free: free-as-in-speech _and_ free-as-in-beer.
It has removed more spam than you can shake a very big stick at, and
doesn't insert its own spam into my messages.

John Stumbles wrote:
Mike Dodd wrote:

snip

I am using the free version of SPAMfighter for private users.
It has removed 3077 spam emails to date.
Paying users do not have this message in their emails.
Try www.SPAMfighter.com for free now!


I am using Mozilla which is free: free-as-in-speech _and_ free-as-in-beer.
It has removed more spam than you can shake a very big stick at, and
doesn't insert its own spam into my messages.

Which I'm now trialing, yes, the SPAMfighter stuff was bugging me; all I
need now is to work out this wierd Mozilla stuff.

Mike Dodd wrote:

John Stumbles wrote:
Mike Dodd wrote:

snip

I am using the free version of SPAMfighter for private users.
It has removed 3077 spam emails to date.
Paying users do not have this message in their emails.
Try www.SPAMfighter.com for free now!


I am using Mozilla which is free: free-as-in-speech _and_
free-as-in-beer. It has removed more spam than you can shake a very big
stick at, and doesn't insert its own spam into my messages.

Which I'm now trialing, yes, the SPAMfighter stuff was bugging me; all I
need now is to work out this wierd Mozilla stuff.

If you've used Outlook Excess (ptui!) you'll find the look'n'feel much the
same. Tools-junk mail controls gets you to the spam filter (but it's so
long since I set mine up I can't remember how you do it). Works pretty well
though it'd be nice to have the sort of 'how we decided whether this
message was junk' info you could get from popfilter. (I think that was what
it was called: a separate baysian filtering pop3 proxy written in Perl,
which I used with OE before I switched to mozilla (and more lately, to
Linux).)