I've just received an estimated gas bill. It shows that I'm £1200 in
arrears. I took a reading from my gas meter and found out that the
estimate was low. After calculating the real value, I found out that I
should be £1500 in arrears.

This worried me. I checked and re-checked all my bills and readings
that I'd taken over the last few years. Everything seemed to point to
the gas bill being massively in arrears.

However, I rechecked my gas meter and was surprised to find out that it
measures in cubic metres whereas my gas bill is in hcf (hundreds of
cubic feet). This would result in my gas bill being 283% of what it
should be.

It only takes five seconds to compare your gas bill units with your gas
meter units.

With all the talk of gas price rises, there's much emphasis on changing
supplier. So, suppose your gas supplier is lax in checking whether your
gas meter is in cubic metres. You'll run up a large bill, get a fright,
settle the bill and move to a different supplier. If the new supplier
uses the correct units, you'll get a much-reduced bill and feel good
that you've moved. Ironically, the original supplier could have had a
lower gas price.

Ask your neighbours/family members to do the 'five second check'. I'd
be surprised if there weren't a couple with suppliers using the wrong
units.

Everyone thinks that suppliers working with estimated readings is a
scandal; this is the REAL scandal, if not criminal fraud.

wrote:

presumably every thing installed in the last 40 years is Meters though
?

Don't know. Maybe.

If that's the case, though, why are gas suppliers assuming that their
meters are reading in hcf and not cubic metres?

Unless, of course, they'd like to get 20 years' profit out of a
customer in one year, even if they eventually lose the customer to
another supplier. They'd like to say it was an 'honest mistake', where
in reality it is incompetence/criminal fraud/weights and measures
contravention.

Jake D wrote:
Does
anyone know what "hcf" stands for?

Thanks,

Jake D

[It's in my original post] hcf=hundreds of cubic feet

Check your meter. If it says it reads in hcf, you're OK. If it reads in
cubic metres (m3), you're being diddled by a factor of 2.83.

Jake D wrote:

My gas statement shows my "used volume" in units of "hcf" which they
then convert to kWh Used using a conversion factor of 1.022640. Does
anyone know what "hcf" stands for?

Hundreds of cubic feet, as the original poster stated.

The conversion factor is an average, depending on when the meter
reading took place. It will take into account the varying chemical
composition of the gas and a deemed temperature at which it is
delivered (the meter measures volume, not mass, which would be better).

--
"Blessed are the pessimists, they make backups!"

On 9 Aug 2006 08:43:54 -0700, "LJMeek" wrote:

Check your meter. If it says it reads in hcf, you're OK. If it reads in
cubic metres (m3), you're being diddled by a factor of 2.83.

Thank you...

Does anyone happen to know the annual gas consumption (in volume) of
the average gas-central-heated terraced house in England (or better
still, Southern England)?

Thanks,

Jake D

On Wed, 9 Aug 2006 15:09:41 UTC, wrote:

presumably every thing installed in the last 40 years is Meters though
?

No, we've had gas meters for longer than that...

Oh, you meant metres...

--
The information contained in this post is copyright the
poster, and specifically may not be published in, or used by
Avenue Supplies, http://avenuesupplies.co.uk

On Wed, 9 Aug 2006 15:43:54 UTC, "LJMeek" wrote:

Check your meter. If it says it reads in hcf, you're OK. If it reads in
cubic metres (m3), you're being diddled by a factor of 2.83.

Unless you're being billed in cubic metres, which I am...

--
The information contained in this post is copyright the
poster, and specifically may not be published in, or used by
Avenue Supplies, http://avenuesupplies.co.uk

"Jake D" wrote in message
...
On 9 Aug 2006 07:02:40 -0700, wrote:

Ask your neighbours/family members to do the 'five second check'. I'd
be surprised if there weren't a couple with suppliers using the wrong
units.

Everyone thinks that suppliers working with estimated readings is a
scandal; this is the REAL scandal, if not criminal fraud.

Powergen is my gas supplier. The gas meter in my house is at least 30
years old by the look of it.

It has the year on it.

The message
from Jake D contains these words:

Does anyone happen to know the annual gas consumption (in volume) of
the average gas-central-heated terraced house in England (or better
still, Southern England)?

Good grief, the range of normal must vary by a factor about at least
three for that. I know people who can get by using sod all 'cos they
wear jumpers and have a well insulated house. I've also known people who
have the heating on all spring and even early summer because they like
to walk round the house mostly naked but will open the windows if it's
too hot instead of turning the thermostat down.

--
Skipweasel
Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain.

In message .com,
writes

However, I rechecked my gas meter and was surprised to find out that it
measures in cubic metres whereas my gas bill is in hcf (hundreds of
cubic feet). This would result in my gas bill being 283% of what it
should be.

Ask your neighbours/family members to do the 'five second check'. I'd
be surprised if there weren't a couple with suppliers using the wrong
units.

Really, why, what evidence have you got?

Everyone thinks that suppliers working with estimated readings is a
scandal;

shrug depends if the estimate works in your favour - it's easy enough
to give the correct reading.

this is the REAL scandal, if not criminal fraud.

It would be scandal if loads of people were in this situation, it would
be fraud if it was deliberate, but I suspect it was just a cock up of
some sort along the way

--
Chris French

Thus spaketh :
wrote:

I've just received an estimated gas bill. It shows that I'm £1200 in
arrears. I took a reading from my gas meter and found out that the
estimate was low. After calculating the real value, I found out that
I should be £1500 in arrears.

This worried me. I checked and re-checked all my bills and readings
that I'd taken over the last few years. Everything seemed to point to
the gas bill being massively in arrears.

However, I rechecked my gas meter and was surprised to find out that
it measures in cubic metres whereas my gas bill is in hcf (hundreds
of cubic feet). This would result in my gas bill being 283% of what
it should be.

It only takes five seconds to compare your gas bill units with your
gas meter units.

With all the talk of gas price rises, there's much emphasis on
changing supplier. So, suppose your gas supplier is lax in checking
whether your gas meter is in cubic metres. You'll run up a large
bill, get a fright, settle the bill and move to a different
supplier. If the new supplier uses the correct units, you'll get a
much-reduced bill and feel good that you've moved. Ironically, the
original supplier could have had a lower gas price.

Ask your neighbours/family members to do the 'five second check'. I'd
be surprised if there weren't a couple with suppliers using the wrong
units.

Everyone thinks that suppliers working with estimated readings is a
scandal; this is the REAL scandal, if not criminal fraud.

presumably every thing installed in the last 40 years is Meters
though ?


When we moved into our one home in late 1998 there was a pre-payment
meter in there, as British Gas the then current provider there was meant
to change the meter over on the day we moved in, yet they didn't show,
when we called them they said they didn't organise meters to be switched
out, I stated I was told someone would be there sometime after 10:00 to
do this, they again said they wouldn't do this and certainly wouldn't
give a time, so I said then why do I have a letter from yourselves
stating not only a time of 10:00 but that this is to switch the meter
out to a credit one, anyway they said they'd get back to me, however
with some luck I noticed a then Transco bloke just up the road, I had a
word with him he came and switched the meter out, it looked fairly new,
was set at just coming up to 0000, and was an imperial meter and not a
metric one.


--
Call ID Units for sale: www.dodgy-dealer.co.uk

On 9 Aug 2006 08:09:41 -0700, wrote:


presumably every thing installed in the last 40 years is Meters though
?
Nope,,its only in recent times that metric meters have started to be
fitted...maybe 3 years or so..



Remove antispam and add 670 after bra to email

The message
from tarquinlinbin contains these words:

presumably every thing installed in the last 40 years is Meters though
?
Nope,,its only in recent times that metric meters have started to be
fitted...maybe 3 years or so..

My 2001 meter is metric.

--
Skipweasel
Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain.

On Wed, 9 Aug 2006 21:29:15 +0100, Guy King
wrote:

Does anyone happen to know the annual gas consumption (in volume) of
the average gas-central-heated terraced house in England (or better
still, Southern England)?

Good grief, the range of normal must vary by a factor about at least
three for that. I know people who can get by using sod all 'cos they
wear jumpers and have a well insulated house. I've also known people who
have the heating on all spring and even early summer because they like
to walk round the house mostly naked but will open the windows if it's
too hot instead of turning the thermostat down.

Of course. That's why I used the word *average*!

Jake D

On 9 Aug 2006 08:46:39 -0700, wrote:

The conversion factor is an average, depending on when the meter
reading took place. It will take into account the varying chemical
composition of the gas and a deemed temperature at which it is
delivered (the meter measures volume, not mass, which would be better).

Interesting - thanks.

Jake D

On Wed, 9 Aug 2006 19:32:41 +0100, "Doctor Drivel"
wrote:

It has the year on it.

So it has. And it's not as old as it looks. Mine reads hcf (same as
what they bill me for).

Jake D

The message
from Jake D contains these words:

Good grief, the range of normal must vary by a factor about at least
three for that. I know people who can get by using sod all 'cos they
wear jumpers and have a well insulated house. I've also known people who
have the heating on all spring and even early summer because they like
to walk round the house mostly naked but will open the windows if it's
too hot instead of turning the thermostat down.

Of course. That's why I used the word *average*!

Yeah, but I was pointing out that the range either side of the average
is likely to be so large that the actual value of the average is going
to be of little use as a pointer to how much is to be expected in your
particular case.

--
Skipweasel
Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain.

wrote:

The conversion factor is an average, depending on when the meter
reading took place. It will take into account the varying chemical
composition of the gas and a deemed temperature at which it is
delivered (the meter measures volume, not mass, which would be better).

There are actually up to *four* "conversion factors" which are now being
confused in this thread:

1. Imperial to metric conversion: since 1992 all gas bills have been
based on usage in cubic metres. As most gas meters still read in
"units" of a hundred cubic foot the metered consumption (difference
between the "current" and "previous" readings) is multiplied by 2.83
to convert to cubic metres. This conversion factor is constant, and
clearly does not apply if you have a metric meter, which reads
directly in m^3.

2. The volume conversion factor or VCF. This is a constant multiplier
with a value of 1.02264 and is an adjustment for temperature and
pressure. The VCF was first introduced during 1997 along with a
corresponding reduction in the gas price. I'd be interested if
anyone knows the detailed reasons for its introduction, but its
existence seems to be an admission that metered gas volumes had
previously been slightly low - presumably because the temperature
and pressure at which meters are calibrated don't quite match actual
supply conditions.

3. The calorific value. This is the energy content of the gas and is
the only factor which varies from bill to bill. The value used is
a legal "declared" value of the fuel's gross calorific value (GCV)
in units of megajoules (MJ) per cubic metre.

4. Conversion from megajoules to kilowatt-hours. Gas is priced in
kilowatt-hours (kWh) so the calculated energy consumption is next
divided by 3.6 to convert from MJ to kWh.

So, for an imperial meter, the billing calculation is essentially

charge = (current - previous) * 2.83 * 1.02264 * GCV * price / 3.6

or, for a metric meter,

charge = (current - previous) * 1.02264 * GCV * price / 3.6

then add VAT at 5%.

--
Andy

On Thu, 10 Aug 2006 08:09:51 +0100, Guy King
wrote:

Of course. That's why I used the word *average*!

Yeah, but I was pointing out that the range either side of the average
is likely to be so large that the actual value of the average is going
to be of little use as a pointer to how much is to be expected in your
particular case.

I would imagine it is only a tiny percentage of the said terraced
houses that are wasting loads of gas or not using any gas. And the two
extremes found in that tiny percentage, would to a large extent cancel
each other out, no?

Perhaps I should rephrase my question and ask for the mean rather than
the average.

Jake D

Andy Wade wrote:

There are actually up to *four* "conversion factors" which are now being
confused in this thread:
(explanation snipped)

We are not worthy ;-)

I hadn't realised the volume conversion factor was a constant. And was
mixing it up with the calorific value, which is variable (by up to 15%
I found, surprisingly - probably due to the %age of C2 and higher
hydrocarbons).

--
"Politeness, n: The most acceptable hypocrisy."

On Thu, 10 Aug 2006 09:24:10 +0100, Andy Wade
wrote:

wrote:

The conversion factor is an average, depending on when the meter
reading took place. It will take into account the varying chemical
composition of the gas and a deemed temperature at which it is
delivered (the meter measures volume, not mass, which would be better).

There are actually up to *four* "conversion factors" which are now being
confused in this thread:

1. Imperial to metric conversion: since 1992 all gas bills have been
based on usage in cubic metres. As most gas meters still read in
"units" of a hundred cubic foot the metered consumption (difference
between the "current" and "previous" readings) is multiplied by 2.83
to convert to cubic metres. This conversion factor is constant, and
clearly does not apply if you have a metric meter, which reads
directly in m^3.

2. The volume conversion factor or VCF. This is a constant multiplier
with a value of 1.02264 and is an adjustment for temperature and
pressure. The VCF was first introduced during 1997 along with a
corresponding reduction in the gas price. I'd be interested if
anyone knows the detailed reasons for its introduction, but its
existence seems to be an admission that metered gas volumes had
previously been slightly low - presumably because the temperature
and pressure at which meters are calibrated don't quite match actual
supply conditions.

3. The calorific value. This is the energy content of the gas and is
the only factor which varies from bill to bill. The value used is
a legal "declared" value of the fuel's gross calorific value (GCV)
in units of megajoules (MJ) per cubic metre.

4. Conversion from megajoules to kilowatt-hours. Gas is priced in
kilowatt-hours (kWh) so the calculated energy consumption is next
divided by 3.6 to convert from MJ to kWh.

So, for an imperial meter, the billing calculation is essentially

charge = (current - previous) * 2.83 * 1.02264 * GCV * price / 3.6

or, for a metric meter,

charge = (current - previous) * 1.02264 * GCV * price / 3.6

then add VAT at 5%.

Thanks for clarifying that one.

Transco recently came to my house offering to rip out my old (circa
1980) meter and replace it with a modern one - free of charge. They
said they were doing this for all households with old-style meters. I
was unable to take them up on the offer at the time, since I had 'work
in progress' in the room concerned. But it gave me time to wonder why
they were wanting to change the meter. Obviously it's going to cost
them something. I wonder what they stand to gain from this
considerable expense. I wonder if I'm better off letting them change
my meter, or better off keeping the old one!

Jake D

On Wed, 09 Aug 2006 16:54:49 +0100 Jake D wrote :
Does anyone happen to know the annual gas consumption (in volume) of
the average gas-central-heated terraced house in England (or better
still, Southern England)?

Check out http://www.sedbuk.com/cost.htm - it will give you a cost in
£ and a price per kWh. A bit of reverse calculation will turn this
into kWh/year and your gas bill will give you the conversion to volume

--
Tony Bryer SDA UK 'Software to build on' http://www.sda.co.uk

Jake D wrote:
On Thu, 10 Aug 2006 08:09:51 +0100, Guy King
wrote:

Of course. That's why I used the word *average*!

Yeah, but I was pointing out that the range either side of the average
is likely to be so large that the actual value of the average is going
to be of little use as a pointer to how much is to be expected in your
particular case.

I would imagine it is only a tiny percentage of the said terraced
houses that are wasting loads of gas or not using any gas. And the two
extremes found in that tiny percentage, would to a large extent cancel
each other out, no?

If you are one of the ones in the minority then the average wouldn't be
much use to you.

Perhaps I should rephrase my question and ask for the mean rather than
the average.


The mean is the average in the sense you are using the terms. For what
you are asking you probably want to use the mode (most common value).

MBQ

Jake D wrote:
Transco recently came to my house offering to rip out my old (circa
1980) meter and replace it with a modern one - free of charge. They
said they were doing this for all households with old-style meters. I
was unable to take them up on the offer at the time, since I had 'work
in progress' in the room concerned. But it gave me time to wonder why
they were wanting to change the meter. Obviously it's going to cost
them something. I wonder what they stand to gain from this
considerable expense. I wonder if I'm better off letting them change
my meter, or better off keeping the old one!


It's cheaper for them to have a team change many meters in the same
area than to have to keep coming back to individual meters with the
complication of missed appointments, etc.

MBQ

On 10 Aug 2006 03:43:02 -0700, wrote:

If you are one of the ones in the minority then the average wouldn't be
much use to you.

I believe I should be very roughly typical regards gas consumption for
a terraced house in Southern England.

Perhaps I should rephrase my question and ask for the mean rather than
the average.


The mean is the average in the sense you are using the terms. For what
you are asking you probably want to use the mode (most common value).

Ah, yes, thanks; the mode! I had forgotten that one! Okay then, the
mode is what I'm after.

I just want to determine whether my gas bills seem realistic. If not,
then I shall suspect a gas leak somewhere. My gas consumption seemed
to rise inordinately some time last Winter (more than usual).

Jake D

On Thu, 10 Aug 2006 11:00:45 +0100, Tony Bryer
wrote:

Does anyone happen to know the annual gas consumption (in volume) of
the average gas-central-heated terraced house in England (or better
still, Southern England)?

Check out http://www.sedbuk.com/cost.htm - it will give you a cost in
£ and a price per kWh. A bit of reverse calculation will turn this
into kWh/year and your gas bill will give you the conversion to volume

That looks useful - thank you.

Jake D

The message
from Jake D contains these words:

Perhaps I should rephrase my question and ask for the mean rather than
the average.

The midrange or mode or even median might be of more use.

--
Skipweasel
Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain.

On 10 Aug 2006 03:48:56 -0700 wrote :
It's cheaper for them to have a team change many meters in the same
area than to have to keep coming back to individual meters with the
complication of missed appointments, etc.

If only they worked that way he six meters in the common front
hall, being replaced one by one. When I queried this, the fitter said
that he was over at one of the big 1930s block in East Sheen every
couple of weeks to change another meter and he'd be doing this for
another year.

It could be that the replacement algorithm is by usage, account age
or somesuch. Or it could be that they don't trust the fitters not to
get muddled if faced with replacing more than one.

I've had two visits to change my gas meter so far, both abandoned
because the meter (as was the fashion) hangs from the pipes and they
can't change this without moving a pipe ... which meter replacers are
apparently not competent to do.

--
Tony Bryer SDA UK 'Software to build on' http://www.sda.co.uk

wrote:

[...] with the calorific value, which is variable (by up to 15%

15%? My record of gas bills going back to 1991 shows a lowest CV of
38.1 MJ/m^3 and a highest of 39.6. That's a spread of just under 4%.

--
Andy

In message om, LJMeek
writes
wrote:

presumably every thing installed in the last 40 years is Meters though
?

Don't know. Maybe.

I thought that a gas meter only had a spec'd life of 10 years


--
geoff

Jake D wrote:
I just want to determine whether my gas bills seem realistic. If not,
then I shall suspect a gas leak somewhere. My gas consumption seemed
to rise inordinately some time last Winter (more than usual).

Turn everything off for a few hours and check the meter before and
after.

MBQ

chris French wrote:

Really, why, what evidence have you got?

A colleague in work and my sister-in-law have just found out they've
the same billing problem as me. I know it's not statistically robust,
but I've only asked 8 people to check if their meter units tie with
their billing units. That's 2 out of 8. I posted the original message
to see if I could get a response from a wider sample of gas users.
Maybe this isn't a national problem after all.

On 11 Aug 2006 00:40:51 -0700, wrote:

I just want to determine whether my gas bills seem realistic. If not,
then I shall suspect a gas leak somewhere. My gas consumption seemed
to rise inordinately some time last Winter (more than usual).

Turn everything off for a few hours and check the meter before and
after.

Excellent idea! Thanks. (Why didn't I think of that?!?)

Jake D