First off I have only ever wired a plug before so any advice you give
me will have to be REALLY simplified, sorry. Anyway...

I am trying to run an electric supply to my stone outbuilding. I have
bought a kit with all the armoured cable, RCD plug, waterproof socket,
junction boxes etc etc. The instructions are ok & I am following them
but I have a question...

Each end of the armoured cable has a junction box to connect it to
flexible cable. Does this have to be so? Can the armoured cable be
terminated directly at waterproof socket? Can the armoured cable go
straight into the RCD plug?

The placing of the socket inside the house means that (if possible)
this would be the easiest way- bypassing the whole junction box wiring
bit.

Thank you & apologies for my knowledge-free language LOL!!

The message . com
from "spiralpromo" contains these words:

I am trying to run an electric supply to my stone outbuilding. I have
bought a kit with all the armoured cable, RCD plug, waterproof socket,
junction boxes etc etc. The instructions are ok & I am following them
but I have a question...

This is where Part P has got us. Instead of a properly installed job
we're getting bodgekits to circumvent the rules.

NuLab never really got the hang of the law of unintended consequences.

--
Skipweasel
Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain.

Guy King wrote:

The message . com
from "spiralpromo" contains these words:

I am trying to run an electric supply to my stone outbuilding. I have
bought a kit with all the armoured cable, RCD plug, waterproof socket,
junction boxes etc etc. The instructions are ok & I am following them
but I have a question...

This is where Part P has got us. Instead of a properly installed job
we're getting bodgekits to circumvent the rules.

NuLab never really got the hang of the law of unintended consequences.

--
Skipweasel
Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain.

Thank you for your help.

spiralpromo wrote:

First off I have only ever wired a plug before so any advice you give
me will have to be REALLY simplified, sorry. Anyway...

I am trying to run an electric supply to my stone outbuilding. I have
bought a kit with all the armoured cable, RCD plug, waterproof socket,
junction boxes etc etc. The instructions are ok & I am following them
but I have a question...

Each end of the armoured cable has a junction box to connect it to
flexible cable. Does this have to be so? Can the armoured cable be
terminated directly at waterproof socket? Can the armoured cable go
straight into the RCD plug?

Depending on the design of socket you may be able to take it directly to
that, however you are unlikely to be able to take it directly to a plug
(the SWA will be way too big). SWA cable normally needs to terminate at
a gland that correctly clamps cable screen - this is particularly
important where the screen is being used as an earth connection (usually
with two core cable).

The placing of the socket inside the house means that (if possible)

Inside the house or the outbuilding?

If the socket will accept a 20mm SWA gland then you may be able to do it
that way, however it is hardly any more difficult to use the supplied
box is it?



--
Cheers,

John.

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spiralpromo wrote:


Guy King wrote:

The message . com
from "spiralpromo" contains these words:

I am trying to run an electric supply to my stone outbuilding. I have
bought a kit with all the armoured cable, RCD plug, waterproof socket,
junction boxes etc etc. The instructions are ok & I am following them
but I have a question...

This is where Part P has got us. Instead of a properly installed job
we're getting bodgekits to circumvent the rules.

NuLab never really got the hang of the law of unintended consequences.

--
Skipweasel
Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain.

Thank you for your help.

Well, no. Guy's got a point. There are situations where exporting the house
earth half way down a garden might be considered dangerous. Your plug kit
makes it a bit too easy and you won't question such things, as you might if
you had to go to the trade shop and buy all the bits separately, because
you would either have read up in order to know what to buy or the trade
bloke may offer some advice. I'm not an engineer so I won't elaborate on
this further.

Please read this:

http://www.iee.org/Publish/WireRegs/...s_outdoors.pdf

for a pretty decent guide to external power supply provision.

Personally, I'd say screw Part P and just learn how to do the job correctly
(start with the above).

Be aware there's a fine for that if you get caught in 6 months and you could
get sued if you kill someone and it might affect your house sale.

If you're not confident, get someone to inspect it. Coughing up 100 quid for
Part P may get you an inspection, or it may get you a council bod coming
round going "looks alright [tick]" (seen reports of this happening). Think
if it were me, I'd pay an electrician to PIR it, at least the inspection
will be done thoroughly, if not by the book of stupid rules.

Thing is, the biggest worry with external supplies are the earth (local TT
or export house earth???, the protection (RCD) and the bonding requirements
of the building (steel garage???)

Buying a kit with a plug makes the job technically legal, but does not
address those concerns properly IMO. Especially if someone chops the RCD
off when it breaks and sticks a normal plug on.

Cheers

Tim

On Sat, 15 Jul 2006 19:37:41 +0100, Guy King wrote:

This is where Part P has got us. Instead of a properly installed job
we're getting bodgekits to circumvent the rules.

Yep, bought a kit comprising a "Powerbreaker" waterproof exterior socket
ready wired to a couple of meters of ordinary flex and a RCD plug.
Princely sum of £19.99 + VAT from Makro. The waterproof socket is very MK
like, plugged in cable seal is very soft squidgy rubber.

--
Cheers
Dave. pam is missing e-mail

On Sun, 16 Jul 2006 14:48:03 +0100, Tim S wrote:

Buying a kit with a plug makes the job technically legal, but does not
address those concerns properly IMO. Especially if someone chops the
RCD off when it breaks and sticks a normal plug on.

Or changes it because it's always tripping... or in the case of my kit
doesn't bother to fit it in the first place.

--
Cheers
Dave. pam is missing e-mail

Dave Liquorice wrote:

On Sun, 16 Jul 2006 14:48:03 +0100, Tim S wrote:

Buying a kit with a plug makes the job technically legal, but does not
address those concerns properly IMO. Especially if someone chops the
RCD off when it breaks and sticks a normal plug on.

Or changes it because it's always tripping... or in the case of my kit
doesn't bother to fit it in the first place.


Indeed.

Talking of which, taking the whole thing logically further:

Simply install two 63A "commando" single phase sockets (with suitable
circuit protection) by the meter. Get this done by the book or pay a sparks
to do it. Or maybe one 3 phase 63A socket with suitable supply for
neatness...

Now you are free to plug your whole house in[1], thus making it an appliance
and exempt from Part P worries...

[1] Couple of CUs or one 3-phase board, with a flying plug etc...

Total bollox? Probably - but not very much different to these kits.
There's a marketing idea - the "whole house rewire kit" as sold in B&Q

Cheers

Tim

PS

Sorry - I can't claim credit for the above, someone thought of this last
year...

PPS - we are actually doing the 3-phase/63A socket thing at work, for
temporary computer room power when the submain distribution boards are
being worked on. There will indeed be a 3 phase plug feeding a temp
distribution board feeding a load of flying 32A single phase sockets. All
approved and being done by pros... Temporary in this case means 24-48 hours
mind...

The message
from Tim S contains these words:

PPS - we are actually doing the 3-phase/63A socket thing at work, for
temporary computer room power when the submain distribution boards are
being worked on. There will indeed be a 3 phase plug feeding a temp
distribution board feeding a load of flying 32A single phase sockets. All
approved and being done by pros... Temporary in this case means 24-48 hours
mind...

At least you're not doing what a firm I worked for did. Portakabin
arrived, couldn't be bothered to wire in properly to the fusebox so for
a "short term" solution they made up an extension lead with a 13A plug
on each end and covered the one in the Portakabin with lots of gaffer
tape once it was plugged in.

This lasted for months.

--
Skipweasel
Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain.

I am sorry if I came across as a complete idiot with my opening post- I
have been doing lots of research about this before undertaking the
project. I am actually a PC hardware technician so do have some
understanding of circuits etc. I understand the reasons for Part P
legislation & do agree that it should be in place. I don't believe I
have done a 'bodge job', & I am glad there are people who are ready
with useful advice. There is no way I would have considered doing it if
I felt less than confident.

The 3-core PVC cable runs from the house socket (through an RCD plug)
to a waterproof junction box outside the house. Then armoured cable
then runs to a stone outbuilding next door (the 20m of cable is clipped
to the wall). The arnoured cable is terminated directly into a
waterproof socket inside the outbuilding. All the connections I made
were obvious & clear & done correctly.

I can't see why this would cause any problems, or (G forbid) death. I
assume someone can tell me where I have gone wrong????

PS It works great & we will see if the RCD trips (there is only a light
running from it)

Please read this.
http://www.iee.org/Publish/WireRegs/...s_outdoors.pdf

for a pretty decent guide to external power supply provision.

Personally, I'd say screw Part P and just learn how to do the job correctly
(start with the above).

On 17 Jul 2006 04:59:07 -0700 someone who may be "spiralpromo"
wrote this:-

I am actually a PC hardware technician so do have some
understanding of circuits etc.

A search engine should pull up a posting that explains the
differences between electronics and "real world" electricity.

I'll add one thing to this. Twice someone of an electronic
background has asked me how many milliamps were drawn by something.
In one case the bit of equipment was connected the supply via cables
over centimetre in diameter, so I would have thought that even the
meanest intelligence would be able to work out that this was many
hundreds, if not several thousand, amps one hour rating. In the
other case the boffin was very surprised to discover that around
12,000A would flow, if someone connected the two wires together, in
the very short period before the HRC fuse did its job.

The 3-core PVC cable runs from the house socket (through an RCD plug)

Supplies to outbuildings are best done properly, ie not through a
plug and socket. That is why Mr Prescott's stupidities (in England
and Wales) are rightly treated with contempt by anyone other then
party politicians and officials.

Such a sub-main should be installed properly and the article you
have already been pointed to is a good starting point.

to a waterproof junction box outside the house. Then armoured cable
then runs to a stone outbuilding next door (the 20m of cable is clipped
to the wall).

20m of cable implies that the outbuilding is around that distance
from the house. I would certainly need to consider the situation
very carefully before exporting a house earthing system that sort of
distance to another building. 1/10 of that distance, even 1/4 of
that distance and it would be an easier decision.

I can't see why this would cause any problems, or (G forbid) death.

You need to understand, amongst other things, the limitations of
RCDs. The idea that one can bung such a gadget in and everything is
fine is promoted by their vendors, but that doesn't mean it is
correct.


--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

The message .com
from "spiralpromo" contains these words:

I don't believe I
have done a 'bodge job', & I am glad there are people who are ready
with useful advice. There is no way I would have considered doing it if
I felt less than confident.

Sorry, I wasn't having a go at you, I was just highlighting the
unintented consequences of ill thought out legislation.

--
Skipweasel
Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain.

On 17 Jul 2006 08:16:31 -0700 someone who may be "spiralpromo"
wrote this:-

OOps. Perhaps I should also have said that I have a physics degree too

That is even worse:-)

(not that that is anyway comparable to 'real world' electricity &
sparkies- just that I do understand amps, watts & volts etc.)

Stories of people with a scientific bent doing mad things with
electrical wiring are legion. Some may even be true:-)

The building is directly next door- (as the crow flies the sockets are
only 5m apart. In fact if I could drill through the wall separating the
bulidings they would be about 1m apart.

What is the reason that you can't? Could a cable be routed under say
a path between buildings?

20m (probably over-estimated
actually- nearer 12m) is only needed to run it neatly & safely past the
downpipe)

I take it that it is not going to be attached to a fence. You
mentioned a wall in an earlier posting.

I am fast wishing I hadn't placed this post. My desire for light in my
workshop

The problem is that a desire for a light tends to soon become,
"while I/you are at it couldn't I/you just..." Thus it is worthwhile
getting it right and allowing for future expansion in the design.

has given people a chance to vent their spleens about people
bipassing P-part legislation. Not everyone does a poor, unresearched
shoddy job.

Part pee is rightly criticised here because it does nothing to
prevent shoddy jobs. It is simply an indication of the ridiculous
approach taken by administrators who know nothing about engineering.
They are only interested in having boxes to tick. Safety might be
the claimed goal, but that claim is a bogus one, as the CORGI con
demonstrates eloquently. Instead of learning from that blunder
administrators continue as if everything they do is perfect.


--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

The building is directly next door- (as the crow flies the sockets are
only 5m apart. In fact if I could drill through the wall separating the
bulidings they would be about 1m apart.

What is the reason that you can't? Could a cable be routed under say
a path between buildings?

The walls are ridiculously thick as its a very old property (probably
1.5m thick judging from the window recesses) I don't feel confident
about what I would be drilling through. There is a hole out of the
front of the house already (from a previous aerial) which I am using &
routing it straight along the stone wall into the connecting building
next door. It doesn't go along the floor at all (its clipped into a U
shape to avoid an awkwardly placed downpipe). (Its more of a really old
extension/stone lean to, & is physically connected to our house. I
wonder if people think I am trailing a cable down the garden??)


The problem is that a desire for a light tends to soon become,
"while I/you are at it couldn't I/you just..." Thus it is worthwhile
getting it right and allowing for future expansion in the design.

Oh no, I'm not going there I only want a lamp in there- that's all.
I have no plans for a kitchen extension or anything else. Just a small
lamp


Part pee is rightly criticised here because it does nothing to
prevent shoddy jobs. It is simply an indication of the ridiculous
approach taken by administrators who know nothing about engineering.
They are only interested in having boxes to tick. Safety might be
the claimed goal, but that claim is a bogus one, as the CORGI con
demonstrates eloquently. Instead of learning from that blunder
administrators continue as if everything they do is perfect.

Yes. There is nothing in this bit I can disagree with- you've got me
there. Damn those guys with clipboards!!

spiralpromo wrote:

A search engine should pull up a posting that explains the
differences between electronics and "real world" electricity.

OOps. Perhaps I should also have said that I have a physics degree too
(not that that is anyway comparable to 'real world' electricity &
sparkies- just that I do understand amps, watts & volts etc.)

Me too. I've also been an electronics technician, now a computer systems
manager (still do PC tech stuff as and when). My Dad's also an electrical
engineer, so I have *some* grounding in these things, though my knowledge
is pathetically dated.

Cons:

1 - People like us are generally very au-fait with low power ELV circuits
and sometimes LV in a semi-industrial setting. We can be used to the
mindset "Flick the switch, does it work? Job done". We assume all other
people are equally conversant with not sticking their hand in the dangerous
end of the machine. Problem is domestic wiring is definitely an area where
all sorts of initiated types will test your system for safety.
(Un?)fortunately, the law of natural selection in the human world is not
really an approved philosophy of life.

2 - More often than not, systems we are used to are small and isolated and
predictable. High power electrical systems can be subject to all sorts of
weird failure cases with unthought of external influences. IET (IEE) bods
who write the wiring regs try to think of these things and recommend wiring
systems that mitigate common and weird faults as much as possible. They
occasionally do stupid things like change all the wiring colours but that's
another story...

Pros:

3 - In theory we have at least two braincells, so if we accept our
limitations we are in a good position to ask sensible questions and get
good advice.

I'll add some comments, but please remember I'm not qualified.


20m of cable implies that the outbuilding is around that distance
from the house. I would certainly need to consider the situation
very carefully before exporting a house earthing system that sort of
distance to another building. 1/10 of that distance, even 1/4 of
that distance and it would be an easier decision.

The building is directly next door- (as the crow flies the sockets are
only 5m apart. In fact if I could drill through the wall separating the
bulidings they would be about 1m apart. 20m (probably over-estimated
actually- nearer 12m) is only needed to run it neatly & safely past the
downpipe)


5m sounds OK to export the earth, unless your earth provision is one of a
few types (do you know which system you have?). I would feel uncomfortable
exporting a TT system (your house makes its own earth with a rod in the
ground) even 5m. Better to have a second separate TT for the outbuilding
IMHO. TT demands an RCD, but you have that (earth fault currents are often
too low to trip an MCB/fuse). TT systems also need testing to prove they
are adequate.

Systems where the earth and neutral are combined until your meter ring a
bell as being dodgey too in this scenario - but I have no experience of
these systems - just flagging up a case that needs more informed opinion.

May be other less common systems too that need special provision.

You have a stone outhouse - so you don't have exposed metalwork? If so that
simplifies things. Downside is that your floor is possibly damp with no DPC
and a fairly good earth given the right (or no) footware.

No, I definitely understand this & am not putting all my faith in it. I
won't be running anything other than a lamp from it (certainly no
kettles, heaters etc. etc.) You are right that a lot of people think
they can forget safety & will be protected by this gadgetry.

All in all, it's better than just stringing a bit of flex overhead (at least
the cable has mechanical protection), but not as good as a proper
installation. That's just my opinion.


I am fast wishing I hadn't placed this post. My desire for light in my
workshop has given people a chance to vent their spleens about people
bipassing P-part legislation. Not everyone does a poor, unresearched
shoddy job. I am sure the best thing for me to do WOULD be to get a
fully qualified person in to do it for me, but at the end of the day I
didn't. Sorry. Thanks to all those who helped in my search for help &
not damnation

At least you didn't get an ear-full of "get a sparky to do the job" ;-

Personally I think the best way is to learn how to do these things, but get
a qualified person to look it over. That way one learns and correct methods
are vindicated, bad ones are corrected. In theory Part P aspires to this,
but it's a cock up implementation wise.

Good luck,

Tim

PS - and yes, definately ask again.

spiralpromo wrote:

I am fast wishing I hadn't placed this post. My desire for light in my

Wo horse! No need to worry.

workshop has given people a chance to vent their spleens about people
bipassing P-part legislation. Not everyone does a poor, unresearched

You will tend to find the vast majority in this group will treat part P
with the utter contempt it deserves ;-)

shoddy job. I am sure the best thing for me to do WOULD be to get a
fully qualified person in to do it for me, but at the end of the day I
didn't. Sorry. Thanks to all those who helped in my search for help &
not damnation

I don't think anyone is suggesting that your workmanship will be at all
shoddy. The two areas of question a

Using a plug and flex to connect up what ought to be wired as a proper
submain (a choice presumably made by the assembler of the "kit" of parts
you bought, with a mind to avoiding the implications of part P - yet
another example of how it is counter-productive).

Secondly there is the issue of earthing. If your house has a PME supply
(i.e. the neutral and earth conductor are bonded together at the head
end of the cable from your electricity supplier), then great lengths
will normally have been taken to ensure that all exposed metalwork,
pipes, gas and water services in the property are correctly
equipotential bonded. One of the reasons for this is that while under
normal circumstances PME supplies are very safe, there are some fault
conditions where they can leave all of the metalwork in your house sat
at 240V. Hence it is important to make sure that *all* of it is well
tied together if you are to avoid a serious electrocution risk. If you
export the earth from a PME supply then you must also ensure you export
the bonding and make the outbuilding a part of the equipotential zone.
With some outbuildings (especially those with either a bare soil floor)
it can be very difficult to maintain a good equipotential zone in these
circumstances. Hence in these cases it is more usual to disconnect the
earth between the buildings (only using it for the protection of the
cable in transit) and provide a dedicated local earth for the
outbuilding (a "TT System". There are further implications wrt to
earthing if there is a large distance between the buildings - again
which would tend to suggest a local TT system.



--
Cheers,

John.

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Crikey. What a lot of good advice, but you all put the fear of god into
me & I have had someone come & check it out. Our sparkie says, yep- all
great. The earth issue is fine, the RCD is ok, all the wiring etc etc
is exactly as it should be. YIPPEE!!

I have light in my outbuilding & I will never touch another cable again
as long as I live. No, honestly I have printed all this off & will read
it properly later.

I agree that sometimes (as long as you have a few brain cells & don't
attempt the impossible) the best way to learn is to give it a go.

Thanks everyone. I will be certain never to mention the 'P' word again
on here.

spiralpromo wrote:

Crikey. What a lot of good advice, but you all put the fear of god into
me & I have had someone come & check it out. Our sparkie says, yep- all
great. The earth issue is fine, the RCD is ok, all the wiring etc etc
is exactly as it should be. YIPPEE!!

Jolly good - you did a job and it was proven good, so now you have peace of
mind and confirmed experience

I have light in my outbuilding & I will never touch another cable again
as long as I live. No, honestly I have printed all this off & will read
it properly later.
I agree that sometimes (as long as you have a few brain cells & don't
attempt the impossible) the best way to learn is to give it a go.

I like the following rules, in order of preference:

In order to do a good job, you must:

a) Know how to do it;

b) Know how to find out how to do it (read/ask someone then goto a)

c) Know what you don't know (read/ask someone then goto b)

d) Know that you might not know something vital but don't know what exactly
(ask someone then goto c)


Thanks everyone. I will be certain never to mention the 'P' word again
on here.

You might get away with it, some of us are so happy that HIPs just died,
sort of. Jihad be declared unto all pointless regulations!

Yes, I'm ****ed. Sorry.

Tim

spiralpromo wrote:

Crikey. What a lot of good advice, but you all put the fear of god into
me & I have had someone come & check it out. Our sparkie says, yep- all
great. The earth issue is fine, the RCD is ok, all the wiring etc etc
is exactly as it should be. YIPPEE!!

Good... let's hope he knows what he is talking about then ;-))

Sorry, did not intend to scare you, was only trying to highlight that
power feeds to outbuildings can have some non obvious complexities that
many people would never give a second thought to. Alas "add external
socket" kits only make this more of a problem rather than less if they
don't have adequate instructions.

I have light in my outbuilding & I will never touch another cable again
as long as I live. No, honestly I have printed all this off & will read
it properly later.

The fact that you stopped and thought about it, already puts you into
the "far safer than the majority" camp anyway. So carry on like that and
you ought to get on just fine!

I agree that sometimes (as long as you have a few brain cells & don't
attempt the impossible) the best way to learn is to give it a go.

Thanks everyone. I will be certain never to mention the 'P' word again
on here.

You can mention it, just choose the words round it carefully! ;-)

--
Cheers,

John.

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