Any body any idea what the union or JIB rates are for Skilled
Bricklayers / Carpenters in the Midlands area of the UK.

Also what would be an typical hourly rate for a self employed
bricklayer or carpenter (fully trained)

I am asking this because my son wants to be come a bricklayer or
carpenter.

We reckon that the rates are fixed if employed, but are generally
being kept down due to Polish / Latvian imigrants. is there any truth
in that.

the pilot wrote:
Any body any idea what the union or JIB rates are for Skilled
Bricklayers / Carpenters in the Midlands area of the UK.

Also what would be an typical hourly rate for a self employed
bricklayer or carpenter (fully trained)

I am asking this because my son wants to be come a bricklayer or
carpenter.

We reckon that the rates are fixed if employed, but are generally
being kept down due to Polish / Latvian imigrants. is there any
truth in that.

Probably some truth, but if he's a skilled & reliable worker he'll never be
short of a job with a traditional trade under his belt.

In article ,
the pilot wrote:
Any body any idea what the union or JIB rates are for Skilled
Bricklayers / Carpenters in the Midlands area of the UK.

Also what would be an typical hourly rate for a self employed
bricklayer or carpenter (fully trained)

I am asking this because my son wants to be come a bricklayer or
carpenter.

Fine - but the rates will likely change by the time he becomes qualified.
And is he very young? Most by working age might have an idea which of very
different trades they might be suitable for. By perhaps showing an
interest in it as a hobby? Ie, plenty say they want to be a brain
surgeon. But wanting to be something doesn't mean they are up to it.

We reckon that the rates are fixed if employed, but are generally
being kept down due to Polish / Latvian imigrants. is there any truth
in that.

No. There are no fixed rates for any employment and skill - apart from
possibly in local government, etc. But few councils have staff in this
sort of area anymore - they use contractors.

If self employed you can try and charge what you want. But may not get any
work. Market forces. Nothing to do with immigrants. Just supply and demand.

I'd suggest you tell your son to research the market. And decide what
skills he's likely to learn properly. A skilled workman will always be in
demand - if good at his job. But only in short term areas of shortage a
license to print money.

--
*Ah, I see the f**k-up fairy has visited us again

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

No. There are no fixed rates for any employment and skill - apart from
possibly in local government, etc. But few councils have staff in this
sort of area anymore - they use contractors.

I've managed to find that an unskilled 'adult general operative' is
paid £6.42/hr minimum, and a 'skilled craftsman' is paid £8.38
minimum. Plus mileage, OT etc.

But what typically would an employed skilled bricklayer be paid, and
what would it be if self employed ???

I'm trying to do a comparison with say a architecural designer, who
can start at £25000

Is there anywhere I can get a list of comparable wages for different
construction jobs, be it on site or in the office ??.


If self employed you can try and charge what you want. But may not get any
work. Market forces. Nothing to do with immigrants. Just supply and demand.

Certainly there is a high immigrant workforce around here that is
willing to work for minimum wage, which appears to be keeping general
wages on the low side.


I'd suggest you tell your son to research the market. And decide what
skills he's likely to learn properly. A skilled workman will always be in
demand - if good at his job. But only in short term areas of shortage a
license to print money.

the pilot wrote:
No. There are no fixed rates for any employment and skill - apart
from possibly in local government, etc. But few councils have staff
in this sort of area anymore - they use contractors.

I've managed to find that an unskilled 'adult general operative' is
paid £6.42/hr minimum, and a 'skilled craftsman' is paid £8.38
minimum. Plus mileage, OT etc.

But what typically would an employed skilled bricklayer be paid, and
what would it be if self employed ???

I'm trying to do a comparison with say a architecural designer, who
can start at £25000

clean hands, fixed hours, suite & tie, company car, a few years at uni
(with opportunity to learn second/third language & shag all the girls)
starting /salary/ of £25k, excellent prospects, possibility of global
placements with the right firm, especially if you've chosen the right
language ... one of the Chinese languages would be a good move ;-)

OR

dirty hands, dirty clothes, oiks for workmates, outdoors in all weathers,
fixed payscale, /wages/, building site politics, years of crap pay and
long hours until he can start out on his own by which time he could
have earned up to a 1/4 million in salary ....

for a young lad just starting out it's a no brainer.


YMMWV

In article ,
the pilot wrote:
No. There are no fixed rates for any employment and skill - apart from
possibly in local government, etc. But few councils have staff in this
sort of area anymore - they use contractors.

I've managed to find that an unskilled 'adult general operative' is
paid £6.42/hr minimum, and a 'skilled craftsman' is paid £8.38
minimum. Plus mileage, OT etc.

Different councils will pay different rates. And paying mileage seems
strange. They would normally travel in a council truck.

But what typically would an employed skilled bricklayer be paid, and
what would it be if self employed ???

You can just about get a good brickie in London for 200 quid a day (8
hours)

So assuming 4 weeks holiday and a 5 day week that might equate to just
under 50 grand a year. But of course few will have these sort of days
every day of the week. A weekly rate will be less. And a permanent
position that pays holiday and sick pay, etc even less per hour.

I'm trying to do a comparison with say a architecural designer, who
can start at £25000

That might be a starting salary for many professions. But of course a good
one will end up on very much more.


Is there anywhere I can get a list of comparable wages for different
construction jobs, be it on site or in the office ??.

You might try the appropriate union. But if it's anything like mine (BECTU
- which covers the TV etc industry) those rates are often much higher than
actually paid.


If self employed you can try and charge what you want. But may not get
any work. Market forces. Nothing to do with immigrants. Just supply and
demand.

Certainly there is a high immigrant workforce around here that is
willing to work for minimum wage, which appears to be keeping general
wages on the low side.

A capitalist's dream? Apart from them being immigrants, obviously.

--
*Pentium wise, pen and paper foolish *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Sat, 11 Feb 2006 12:19:05 GMT, "." [email protected] wrote:

the pilot wrote:
No. There are no fixed rates for any employment and skill - apart
from possibly in local government, etc. But few councils have staff
in this sort of area anymore - they use contractors.

I've managed to find that an unskilled 'adult general operative' is
paid £6.42/hr minimum, and a 'skilled craftsman' is paid £8.38
minimum. Plus mileage, OT etc.

But what typically would an employed skilled bricklayer be paid, and
what would it be if self employed ???

I'm trying to do a comparison with say a architecural designer, who
can start at £25000

clean hands, fixed hours, suite & tie, company car, a few years at uni
(with opportunity to learn second/third language & shag all the girls)
starting /salary/ of £25k, excellent prospects, possibility of global
placements with the right firm, especially if you've chosen the right
language ... one of the Chinese languages would be a good move ;-)

OR

dirty hands, dirty clothes, oiks for workmates, outdoors in all weathers,
fixed payscale, /wages/, building site politics, years of crap pay and
long hours until he can start out on his own by which time he could
have earned up to a 1/4 million in salary ....

for a young lad just starting out it's a no brainer.


YMMWV




A few things don't seem quite right he

- Fixed hours for case 1

- Suit and tie are an advantage?

- Politics only for case 2?

- Shagging all the girls only available for case 1?


Apart from that, case 1 would appear to be the more attractive of the
two.


--

..andy

Andy Hall wrote:
On Sat, 11 Feb 2006 12:19:05 GMT, "." [email protected] wrote:

the pilot wrote:
No. There are no fixed rates for any employment and skill - apart
from possibly in local government, etc. But few councils have staff
in this sort of area anymore - they use contractors.

I've managed to find that an unskilled 'adult general operative' is
paid £6.42/hr minimum, and a 'skilled craftsman' is paid £8.38
minimum. Plus mileage, OT etc.

But what typically would an employed skilled bricklayer be paid, and
what would it be if self employed ???

I'm trying to do a comparison with say a architecural designer, who
can start at £25000

clean hands, fixed hours, suite & tie, company car, a few years at
uni (with opportunity to learn second/third language & shag all the
girls) starting /salary/ of £25k, excellent prospects, possibility
of global placements with the right firm, especially if you've
chosen the right language ... one of the Chinese languages would be
a good move ;-)

OR

dirty hands, dirty clothes, oiks for workmates, outdoors in all
weathers, fixed payscale, /wages/, building site politics, years of
crap pay and long hours until he can start out on his own by which
time he could
have earned up to a 1/4 million in salary ....

for a young lad just starting out it's a no brainer.


YMMWV




A few things don't seem quite right he

- Fixed hours for case 1

yup. long. but dry, usually indoors and generally warm. do more than
your contracted hours and you go up the greasy pole quicker. do 60
hours a week as a brickie and you're a stooped old man by the time
you're 50, round about the time a smart architect would be thinking
of semi retirement, having been a partner for some years.

- Suit and tie are an advantage?

over a pair of redwings, jeans and a lumberjack shirt ? shrugs.

- Politics only for case 2?

aye, but office politics is less likely to end up with a turd in your tool
box or a smack in the mouth for not liking x football team over y
football team. PLUS, you're less likely to have the **** taken out
of you for reading a /book/ (heaven forfend) with your snap rather
than the sun or the mirror. or the daily spurt. lowbrow doesn't cover it.

- Shagging all the girls only available for case 1?

posh uni fillies don't generally give out to bricklayers.

Apart from that, case 1 would appear to be the more attractive of the
two.

if I had the chance to do it all again I'd choose option 1. and properly.

On Sat, 11 Feb 2006 13:06:19 GMT, "." [email protected] wrote:






A few things don't seem quite right he

- Fixed hours for case 1

yup. long. but dry, usually indoors and generally warm. do more than
your contracted hours and you go up the greasy pole quicker.

... or just get to keep your job because that is the expectation.

do 60
hours a week as a brickie and you're a stooped old man by the time
you're 50, round about the time a smart architect would be thinking
of semi retirement, having been a partner for some years.

- Suit and tie are an advantage?

over a pair of redwings, jeans and a lumberjack shirt ? shrugs.

I'd rather have the jeans.



- Politics only for case 2?

aye, but office politics is less likely to end up with a turd in your tool
box or a smack in the mouth for not liking x football team over y
football team. PLUS, you're less likely to have the **** taken out
of you for reading a /book/ (heaven forfend) with your snap rather
than the sun or the mirror. or the daily spurt. lowbrow doesn't cover it.

I see your point, but there can certainly be virtual turds in
toolboxes and there is more than the literal version of the smack in
the mouth.



- Shagging all the girls only available for case 1?

posh uni fillies don't generally give out to bricklayers.

I'd always heard that some like a bit of rough.




Apart from that, case 1 would appear to be the more attractive of the
two.

if I had the chance to do it all again I'd choose option 1. and properly.


The grass always seems greener....



--

..andy

Andy Hall wrote:
On Sat, 11 Feb 2006 13:06:19 GMT, "." [email protected] wrote:






A few things don't seem quite right he

- Fixed hours for case 1

yup. long. but dry, usually indoors and generally warm. do more than
your contracted hours and you go up the greasy pole quicker.

.. or just get to keep your job because that is the expectation.

nope, it's all set out for you in your annual appraisal. what's expected to
get an 'A'. do the bare minimum and it's C's all the way, bust a bollock
and you can be like my 'mate' Paul: 14 years from the bottom to UK MD
of one of the largest companies on the planet. quite able to retire at 38 !

38 ffs !

do 60
hours a week as a brickie and you're a stooped old man by the time
you're 50, round about the time a smart architect would be thinking
of semi retirement, having been a partner for some years.

- Suit and tie are an advantage?

over a pair of redwings, jeans and a lumberjack shirt ? shrugs.

I'd rather have the jeans.

me too.



- Politics only for case 2?

aye, but office politics is less likely to end up with a turd in
your tool box or a smack in the mouth for not liking x football team
over y football team. PLUS, you're less likely to have the ****
taken out
of you for reading a /book/ (heaven forfend) with your snap rather
than the sun or the mirror. or the daily spurt. lowbrow doesn't
cover it.

I see your point, but there can certainly be virtual turds in
toolboxes and there is more than the literal version of the smack in
the mouth.

yup, but it's more a case of debate over argument. subtle but important.

snip

The grass always seems greener....

I'll wager an architect looking out of the office window at the site below
doesn't think that as much as the brickie looking up at the suits in the
office, through the ****ing rain, in november, does ;-)

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember "Dave Plowman (News)"
saying something like:

We reckon that the rates are fixed if employed, but are generally
being kept down due to Polish / Latvian imigrants. is there any truth
in that.

No. There are no fixed rates for any employment and skill - apart from
possibly in local government, etc. But few councils have staff in this
sort of area anymore - they use contractors.

If self employed you can try and charge what you want. But may not get any
work. Market forces. Nothing to do with immigrants. Just supply and demand.

Which is exactly the OP's point. In many parts of the British Isles
where there is an influx of Polish/Latvian/etc workers, rates are indeed
lower than they should be. Those lads, while nice enough fellows, will
work for half what a local will.

Employers love them for that, unsurprisingly. I expect the situation
will rectify eventually, but might take a couple of years yet.
--

Dave

On Sat, 11 Feb 2006 13:29:28 GMT, "." [email protected] wrote:

Andy Hall wrote:
On Sat, 11 Feb 2006 13:06:19 GMT, "." [email protected] wrote:






A few things don't seem quite right he

- Fixed hours for case 1

yup. long. but dry, usually indoors and generally warm. do more than
your contracted hours and you go up the greasy pole quicker.

.. or just get to keep your job because that is the expectation.

nope, it's all set out for you in your annual appraisal. what's expected to
get an 'A'. do the bare minimum and it's C's all the way, bust a bollock
and you can be like my 'mate' Paul: 14 years from the bottom to UK MD
of one of the largest companies on the planet. quite able to retire at 38 !

38 ffs !

Well...... if it's a large organisation (or even a smaller one for
that matter) they are not going to put anything in an annual appraisal
that explicitly or even overtly implicitly suggests more than the
statutory maximum working hours.

The more typical situation is to ask the employee to sign a waiver for
that.

Paul is one in several hundred thousand who probably also managed to
be in the right place at the right time as well as working hard and
being willing to take risks I suspect.


do 60
hours a week as a brickie and you're a stooped old man by the time
you're 50, round about the time a smart architect would be thinking
of semi retirement, having been a partner for some years.

- Suit and tie are an advantage?

over a pair of redwings, jeans and a lumberjack shirt ? shrugs.

I'd rather have the jeans.

me too.



- Politics only for case 2?

aye, but office politics is less likely to end up with a turd in
your tool box or a smack in the mouth for not liking x football team
over y football team. PLUS, you're less likely to have the ****
taken out
of you for reading a /book/ (heaven forfend) with your snap rather
than the sun or the mirror. or the daily spurt. lowbrow doesn't
cover it.

I see your point, but there can certainly be virtual turds in
toolboxes and there is more than the literal version of the smack in
the mouth.

yup, but it's more a case of debate over argument. subtle but important.

snip

The grass always seems greener....

I'll wager an architect looking out of the office window at the site below
doesn't think that as much as the brickie looking up at the suits in the
office, through the ****ing rain, in november, does ;-)

I'm sure that's true.


--

..andy

In article ,
Andy Hall wrote:
The grass always seems greener....

I'll wager an architect looking out of the office window at the site
below doesn't think that as much as the brickie looking up at the
suits in the office, through the ****ing rain, in november, does ;-)

I'm sure that's true.

I dunno. I work outside in the ****ing rain and freezing cold making TV
programmes. And probably in worse conditions than you could lay bricks in.
You simply need the correct protective clothing - which needn't cost the
earth. And don't think the grass is greener in post production where my
colleagues are in a nice air conditioned suite...

But then on a pleasant day it's a boon to be outside rather than indoors.
You can move about - not tied to a desk all day.

--
*24 hours in a day ... 24 beers in a case ... coincidence? *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Andy Hall wrote:
And don't think the grass is greener in post production where my
colleagues are in a nice air conditioned suite...

I thought that these were the guys who spend their time in Soho wine
bars discussing Richard Attenborough and fridges. :-)

The good ol' days of post involving reels and reels of film and tape.
Where the producer, director and PA would all be present throughout the
entire session - although probably not awake for most of it.

Nowadays it's just one operator sat at a workstation on his own to do the
nuts and bolts - with the director just coming in to approve the final cut
and make slight alterations.

But then on a pleasant day it's a boon to be outside rather than
indoors. You can move about - not tied to a desk all day.

I don't find myself tied to a desk very often - yesterday was the
first time in over 3 weeks - more like tied to aircraft seats. Still,
at least I can turn on the noise-cancelling headphones and the iPod.

Last time I flew I wasn't so much tied to my seat but jammed in it by the
proximity of the one in front. So unless I can afford business class
minimum never again.

--
*Filthy stinking rich -- well, two out of three ain't bad

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.