Long tale of woe...

My mother's 14-month old boiler sprung a leak yesterday. The water
that came out was completely black. After finding a plumber out of
the Yellow Pages (Tesco Insurance's 24-hour emergency hotline, my
arse!), he said the leak is coming from the cast-iron heat exchanger.
He expressed surprise that the heat exchanger should spring a leak in
such a short period of time, and that, if the system had been flushed
properly, the water should be so black.

The boiler, an Ideal Classic FF340, was fitted as a replacement to an
original system. This was supposedly power-flushed by the installers,
but according to yesterday's plumber, this should have taken about 4
hours, whereas my mother reckons it was a lot less than that (mind
you, she is in her eighties and does get confused, so she's not a
reliable witness).

Further information that may or may not be relevant:
i) All the radiators are fitted with TRVs, I think there is a by-pass,
but it doesn't have any kind of flow valve on it. I fitted a room
thermostat as there wasn't one before, and told my mother to keep the
TRV in the same room fully open (replacing the TRV with a lockshield
valve would have required a round tuit, which wasn't available at the
time). My sister visited last week and turned the valve down.
ii) Since the boiler was installed, it's only been used full for about
three-four months. My mother went into hospital in early January, and
was there for six months. While she was away, apart from a couple of
weekends I stayed over, the thermostat was lowered to keep it ticking
over on frost protection. Last weekend was the first time it's been
used apart from hot water for 9 months.

Questions:
1. Can an unflushed system cause a cast-iron heat exchanger to leak
after 14 months (unless there's a manufacturing fault)?
2. If there isn't a by-pass circuit, could all the valves being up to
temperature have caused enough pressure to rupture the heat exchanger?
3. Would a long layoff or low level of usage have exacerbated this
problem?
4. Who's at fault here? The boiler's manufacturer's, or the
installers (name-and-shame time: Merseyside Central Heating of
Crosby)?
--
Hugo Nebula
"If no-one on the internet wants a piece of this,
just how far from the pack have you strayed?"

In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
Hugo Nebula abuse@localhost wrote:


Questions:
1. Can an unflushed system cause a cast-iron heat exchanger to leak
after 14 months (unless there's a manufacturing fault)?
2. If there isn't a by-pass circuit, could all the valves being up to
temperature have caused enough pressure to rupture the heat exchanger?
3. Would a long layoff or low level of usage have exacerbated this
problem?
4. Who's at fault here? The boiler's manufacturer's, or the
installers (name-and-shame time: Merseyside Central Heating of
Crosby)?

I would be surprised if a decent heat exchanger would corrode enough to leak
in 14 months with as little usage as you indicate - whatever you did to it!

Black water indicates that corrosion has taken place at some time. This
could have been there for a long time, and not been flushed properly when
the boiler was changed - or it could have happened since the new boiler was
installed if there was no inhibitor in the the system - or if *lots* of
oxygen had been introduced.

I guess that it is probably a vented system - with a small fill & expansion
tank in the attic - and that it wasn't converted to a sealed system when the
new boiler was fitted. Is this correct? If so, is there any evidence of
pumping over - in other words, when the pump is running, is there a constant
flow of water out of the vent pipe back into the F&E tank? If so, this would
be a good recipe for rapid corrosion!

Assuming that the boiler is correctly vented - with a clear path to the F&E
tank, not interrupted by any valve - there's no way that the pump can
generate enough pressure to do any damage - even when running stalled.

I wouldn't have thought that laying the system up would do any harm.

Apportionment of blame could be a bit of a challenge - because the boiler
manufacturer and installer will blame each other. Start with the installer -
the black water has *got* to be down to him due either to:
* insufficient flushing
* not putting inhibitor in, or
* incorrect system design

or some combination of these.

--
Cheers,
Set Square
______
Please reply to newsgroup. Reply address is invalid.

In article ,
Hugo Nebula abuse@localhost writes:
Long tale of woe...

My mother's 14-month old boiler sprung a leak yesterday. The water
that came out was completely black. After finding a plumber out of
the Yellow Pages (Tesco Insurance's 24-hour emergency hotline, my
arse!), he said the leak is coming from the cast-iron heat exchanger.
He expressed surprise that the heat exchanger should spring a leak in
such a short period of time, and that, if the system had been flushed
properly, the water should be so black.

The boiler, an Ideal Classic FF340, was fitted as a replacement to an

Can't find any reference to that model on the web, so I don't
know what type it is.

original system. This was supposedly power-flushed by the installers,
but according to yesterday's plumber, this should have taken about 4
hours, whereas my mother reckons it was a lot less than that (mind
you, she is in her eighties and does get confused, so she's not a
reliable witness).

Further information that may or may not be relevant:
i) All the radiators are fitted with TRVs, I think there is a by-pass,
but it doesn't have any kind of flow valve on it. I fitted a room
thermostat as there wasn't one before, and told my mother to keep the
TRV in the same room fully open (replacing the TRV with a lockshield
valve would have required a round tuit, which wasn't available at the
time). My sister visited last week and turned the valve down.

You could just remove the TRV head, which would leave the valve
fully open.

ii) Since the boiler was installed, it's only been used full for about
three-four months. My mother went into hospital in early January, and
was there for six months. While she was away, apart from a couple of
weekends I stayed over, the thermostat was lowered to keep it ticking
over on frost protection. Last weekend was the first time it's been
used apart from hot water for 9 months.

Questions:
1. Can an unflushed system cause a cast-iron heat exchanger to leak
after 14 months (unless there's a manufacturing fault)?

I would say not, even if the system had no inhibitor. Radiators
are much thinner (unless also cast iron) and would corrode through
first. My parents had an Ideal Standard cast iron boiler for around
40 years, and it never had any inhibitor in it. It only got removed
because they wanted to switch to a smaller wall mounted boiler.
Even allowing for thinner castings nowadays, it's not going to
corrode through a modern one in 14 months IMHO.

2. If there isn't a by-pass circuit, could all the valves being up to
temperature have caused enough pressure to rupture the heat exchanger?

System should either be vented or have a pressure relief valve.
I don't know if it's a low water volume boiler though.

3. Would a long layoff or low level of usage have exacerbated this
problem?

Running with the boiler stat too low can cause condensing operation
in non-condensing boilers.

4. Who's at fault here? The boiler's manufacturer's, or the
installers (name-and-shame time: Merseyside Central Heating of
Crosby)?

Sounds to me like a manufacturing fault, but would need more
investigation to be sure.

--
Andrew Gabriel

On Sun, 18 Sep 2005 12:04:59 +0100, a particular chimpanzee named "Set
Square" randomly hit the keyboard and produced:

I guess that it is probably a vented system - with a small fill & expansion
tank in the attic - and that it wasn't converted to a sealed system when the
new boiler was fitted. Is this correct? If so, is there any evidence of
pumping over - in other words, when the pump is running, is there a constant
flow of water out of the vent pipe back into the F&E tank?

Yes, it still has the header tank in the loft, but I don't know if
there has been any pumping over.

Apportionment of blame could be a bit of a challenge - because the boiler
manufacturer and installer will blame each other. Start with the installer -
the black water has *got* to be down to him due either to:
* insufficient flushing
* not putting inhibitor in, or
* incorrect system design

or some combination of these.

It seems the first and third are definitely there. Crawling round the
loft space yesterday, I found an empty 1 litre bottle of Sentinel (?)
inhibitor. Assuming they put the full bottle in and no more, is this
enough for a seven radiator system?

I'm not hopeful of getting a response from the installer. He's got
his money, and wouldn't respond to my concerns about the system last
year. Short of throwing good money after bad to hire solicitors, etc
to get him to put things right, what options do I have?
--
Hugo Nebula
"If no-one on the internet wants a piece of this,
just how far from the pack have you strayed?"

Hugo Nebula wrote:

On Sun, 18 Sep 2005 12:04:59 +0100, a particular chimpanzee named "Set
Square" randomly hit the keyboard and produced:

It seems the first and third are definitely there. Crawling round the
loft space yesterday, I found an empty 1 litre bottle of Sentinel (?)
inhibitor. Assuming they put the full bottle in and no more, is this
enough for a seven radiator system?

Yes.

I'm not hopeful of getting a response from the installer. He's got
his money, and wouldn't respond to my concerns about the system last
year. Short of throwing good money after bad to hire solicitors, etc
to get him to put things right, what options do I have?

Take it up woth the manufacturers. For this you'll need the benchmark
certificate (A4 white card with light blue print & logos etc on it) which
the installer completed and left with the customer when he completed the
job.

Didn't he!??

If he didn't then the manufacturers may wash their hands of it since the
benchmark is the evidence that the boiler has been installed correctly, and
you'll have to get heavy with the installer to sort it out.

On Sun, 18 Sep 2005 12:15:08 GMT, a particular chimpanzee named
randomly hit the keyboard and produced:

Take it up woth the manufacturers. For this you'll need the benchmark
certificate (A4 white card with light blue print & logos etc on it) which
the installer completed and left with the customer when he completed the
job.

Didn't he!??

Did he f***!

If he didn't then the manufacturers may wash their hands of it since the
benchmark is the evidence that the boiler has been installed correctly, and
you'll have to get heavy with the installer to sort it out.

What course of action could I take if the installer doesn't play ball
or drags his feet, I wonder? Given that fact that my mother is 80,
and has no form of heating or hot water except the CH, what would be a
reasonable time for the company to carry out the work? Would I have
to give them a couple of days, or a few weeks? If they don't, could I
then employ someone else to do it and hope to claim the money back off
them?

How long does it take to order a replacement heat exchanger? Is it a
next day delivery type of thing, or would it be, "ooh, we may have one
in our Stornoway depot, it might be here in a couple of weeks". And
how long to fit?
--
Hugo Nebula
"If no-one on the internet wants a piece of this,
just how far from the pack have you strayed?"

In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
Hugo Nebula abuse@localhost wrote:

On Sun, 18 Sep 2005 12:04:59 +0100, a particular chimpanzee named "Set
Square" randomly hit the keyboard and produced:

Apportionment of blame could be a bit of a challenge - because the
boiler manufacturer and installer will blame each other. Start with
the installer - the black water has *got* to be down to him due
either to:
* insufficient flushing
* not putting inhibitor in, or
* incorrect system design

or some combination of these.

It seems the first and third are definitely there. Crawling round the
loft space yesterday, I found an empty 1 litre bottle of Sentinel (?)
inhibitor. Assuming they put the full bottle in and no more, is this
enough for a seven radiator system?

That should be enough - unless, of course, it has somehow got diluted. This
can easily happen if the water level is too high in the F&E tank. When the
system heats up, the water expands and runs out of the overflow. When it
cools down, the level drops - and fresh water comes in through the ball
valve. Or there could be an undetected leak somewhere - maybe under the
downstairs floorboards? - again with automatic topping up with fresh
oxygenated uninhibited(!) water.

Have you examined the boiler yourself to verify the plumber's diagnosis? Is
there any chance that there's just a leaking joint rather than a corroded
heat exchanger? The heat exchanger is probably in several bits which bolt
together - with gaskets to seal the joints. Unless there were a serious
manufacturing defect, it seems more likely to me that a gasket has failed
than that the metal has corroded through.
--
Cheers,
Set Square
______
Please reply to newsgroup. Reply address is invalid.

In article ,
writes
Hugo Nebula wrote:

On Sun, 18 Sep 2005 12:04:59 +0100, a particular chimpanzee named "Set
Square" randomly hit the keyboard and produced:

It seems the first and third are definitely there. Crawling round the
loft space yesterday, I found an empty 1 litre bottle of Sentinel (?)
inhibitor. Assuming they put the full bottle in and no more, is this
enough for a seven radiator system?

Yes.

I'm not hopeful of getting a response from the installer. He's got
his money, and wouldn't respond to my concerns about the system last
year. Short of throwing good money after bad to hire solicitors, etc
to get him to put things right, what options do I have?

Take it up woth the manufacturers. For this you'll need the benchmark
certificate (A4 white card with light blue print & logos etc on it) which
the installer completed and left with the customer when he completed the
job.

Before talking to the manufacturer I'd be inclined to power flush the system
properly (including the boiler) and refill with inhibitor, sounds like the power
flush will be needed on the final system anyway and it gives the
manufacturer one less thing to find fault with if they carry out an
inspection.

Note that I'm not suggesting a deception, as others have suggested, I think
it unlikely that the system caused the leak so it seems fair to clean up a
little to avoid a rejection of any claim.

It sounds like you're putting it down to experience but if you decide to
pursue the original installer for the cost of re-flushing (at least) then you
could probably do with a report from the plumber you called out first.

Just noticed your latest post, don't worry about lead times, just call in the
mfr, mention aged mum to express the urgency and it is their problem -
but I would clean up the system first.
--
fred

On Sun, 18 Sep 2005 13:53:08 GMT, a particular chimpanzee named fred
randomly hit the keyboard and produced:

Before talking to the manufacturer I'd be inclined to power flush the system
properly (including the boiler) and refill with inhibitor, sounds like the power
flush will be needed on the final system anyway and it gives the
manufacturer one less thing to find fault with if they carry out an
inspection.

Unfortunately, any water in would just cascade over the kitchen floor.

It sounds like you're putting it down to experience

I certainly don't want to chalk it up to experience, but in the first
instance, she needs a working central heating system, and if she's to
have to pay out to a third party for someone to provide that, then our
only hope is to try and recover that from someone. I don't want to
take actions now that's going to stymie that ("you didn't give us a
chance to examine the system even though we couldn't get someone out
there until mid-November").
--
Hugo Nebula
"If no-one on the internet wants a piece of this,
just how far from the pack have you strayed?"

Hugo Nebula wrote:

Assuming they put the full bottle in and no more, is this
enough for a seven radiator system?

Yes. There's a moulding date on the bottom of the Sentinel bottle,
which might give you an idea of it's vintage. I dosed my system
yesterday, the bottle was moulded 11 months ago but had been in the
garage for 4 or 5 months awaiting tuits. And they should have completed
the self-adhesive label on the bottle.


I'm not hopeful of getting a response from the installer. He's got
his money, and wouldn't respond to my concerns about the system last
year.

You've got to ask him, though. Maybe a letter with a copy to the
manufacturers. A copy to the local press if he blanks you. I'd be
mortified if something I'd done failed witin that time. I also believe
that you'd still have a claim, in that it should have lasted much
longer, even though the 12-month guarantee may have expired; that's one
for UK-legal.

Questions:
1. Can an unflushed system cause a cast-iron heat exchanger to leak
after 14 months (unless there's a manufacturing fault)?

I'd think I could get it to fail that quickly, but I'd have to try
really, really hard.
The problem could be 1) dissolved oxygen due to
a) pumping over (as mentioned) and/or
b) galvanic corrosion. I'd guess pumping over.
It might also be 2) fireside corrosion due to low return temperatures
(assume it's not a condenser since it's CI).
Given the evidence of corrosion, I'd think we're talking about 1a or
1b.

You could plug the hole with that epoxy putty stuff, refill and set the
system running, WITHOUT firing the boiler, to see if you can get it to
pump over under any conditions. If so, I'd reckon it's negligent
installation. The 'by-pass TRV' shut condition would probably be the
worst case for this. In fact, all TRVs shut, but pump still on, might
be the worst possible case, depending on where the cold feed and open
vent connections are, see below.

You could also get a sample of the water in the system (unless it's all
been diluted or drained). Low pH (less than 7, acidic) would be the
worst case for galvanic corrosion. This could be caused by great gobs
of active flux, inadequate pre-commissioning flushing and/or no
inhibitors. Ideally it should be around 8 or 9 (alkaline). I'll see
what pH my system is, out of interest, if I can find some litmus paper.
If you know anyone in secondary school, the chemistry lab technician
would test a sample of it for them & marvel at their sudden interest in
applied chemistry.


2. If there isn't a by-pass circuit, could all the valves being up to
temperature have caused enough pressure to rupture the heat exchanger?

No. The pump's maximum differential pressure (at no flow) is tiny.
You'd need great pressure which you can't get with an open system. You
could get huge pressure, easily, on a sealed system, with no expansion
vessel & no pressure relief valve.

If there's black sludge (magnetite) it's likely corrosion. However,
with all TRVs shut, the flow rate would decrease and the pump
differential pressure would increase. This might start pumping over,
although there may be none under normal flow conditions.

3. Would a long layoff or low level of usage have exacerbated this
problem?
No.
4. Who's at fault here? The boiler's manufacturer's, or the
installers (name-and-shame time: Merseyside Central Heating of
Crosby)?

Could be a manufacturing defect but the installer would be my prime
suspect. A new boiler might be simplest to get Mum's heating on again
asap. I'm not sure you could get these boilers still (non-condensing
presumably).

In article , Hugo Nebula
abuse@localhost.? writes
On Sun, 18 Sep 2005 13:53:08 GMT, a particular chimpanzee named fred
randomly hit the keyboard and produced:

Before talking to the manufacturer I'd be inclined to power flush the system
properly (including the boiler) and refill with inhibitor, sounds like the power
flush will be needed on the final system anyway and it gives the
manufacturer one less thing to find fault with if they carry out an
inspection.

Unfortunately, any water in would just cascade over the kitchen floor.

I see, but you could isolate the pipework to flush through. There is a risk
that sludge might have moved through the system and dumped in the heat
exchanger, if the mfr sees something like that then it would be a big
negative.

It sounds like you're putting it down to experience

I certainly don't want to chalk it up to experience, but in the first
instance, she needs a working central heating system, and if she's to
have to pay out to a third party for someone to provide that, then our
only hope is to try and recover that from someone. I don't want to
take actions now that's going to stymie that ("you didn't give us a
chance to examine the system even though we couldn't get someone out
there until mid-November").
Yes, good to get it sorted now, re. evidence, got a video camera?
--
fred

"Andrew Gabriel" wrote in message
.. .
In article ,
Hugo Nebula abuse@localhost writes:
Long tale of woe...

My mother's 14-month old boiler sprung a leak yesterday. The water
that came out was completely black. After finding a plumber out of
the Yellow Pages (Tesco Insurance's 24-hour emergency hotline, my
arse!), he said the leak is coming from the cast-iron heat exchanger.
He expressed surprise that the heat exchanger should spring a leak in
such a short period of time, and that, if the system had been flushed
properly, the water should be so black.

The boiler, an Ideal Classic FF340, was fitted as a replacement to an

Can't find any reference to that model on the web, so I don't
know what type it is.

Cast iron heat exchanger, tough as old boots. One of my old reliable modesl
which could be expected to last forever.


original system. This was supposedly power-flushed by the installers,
but according to yesterday's plumber, this should have taken about 4
hours, whereas my mother reckons it was a lot less than that (mind
you, she is in her eighties and does get confused, so she's not a
reliable witness).

Further information that may or may not be relevant:
i) All the radiators are fitted with TRVs, I think there is a by-pass,
but it doesn't have any kind of flow valve on it. I fitted a room
thermostat as there wasn't one before, and told my mother to keep the
TRV in the same room fully open (replacing the TRV with a lockshield
valve would have required a round tuit, which wasn't available at the
time). My sister visited last week and turned the valve down.

You could just remove the TRV head, which would leave the valve
fully open.

ii) Since the boiler was installed, it's only been used full for about
three-four months. My mother went into hospital in early January, and
was there for six months. While she was away, apart from a couple of
weekends I stayed over, the thermostat was lowered to keep it ticking
over on frost protection. Last weekend was the first time it's been
used apart from hot water for 9 months.

Questions:
1. Can an unflushed system cause a cast-iron heat exchanger to leak
after 14 months (unless there's a manufacturing fault)?

Yes but I would suggest very unlikely. How long did its (presumably cast
iron also) predecessor last?

I would say not, even if the system had no inhibitor. Radiators
are much thinner (unless also cast iron) and would corrode through
first. My parents had an Ideal Standard cast iron boiler for around
40 years, and it never had any inhibitor in it. It only got removed
because they wanted to switch to a smaller wall mounted boiler.
Even allowing for thinner castings nowadays, it's not going to
corrode through a modern one in 14 months IMHO.

2. If there isn't a by-pass circuit, could all the valves being up to
temperature have caused enough pressure to rupture the heat exchanger?

No


System should either be vented or have a pressure relief valve.
I don't know if it's a low water volume boiler though.

Its not.


3. Would a long layoff or low level of usage have exacerbated this
problem?

Running with the boiler stat too low can cause condensing operation
in non-condensing boilers.

The 340 is a modern version and IIRC its got a limited range stat response
so it shouldn't be possible to run at that low a setting even at number 1 on
the scale.


4. Who's at fault here? The boiler's manufacturer's, or the
installers (name-and-shame time: Merseyside Central Heating of
Crosby)?

Sounds to me like a manufacturing fault, but would need more
investigation to be sure.

Ideal will be most interested. Contact their customer service department in
Hull. I have had "one" similar failure on a 370 which I installed for a
client. Ideal sent me a replacement heat exchanger and refractory panels
since the old ones were slush. I sent them back the old holed unit which had
blown a hole in the back of the casting after three years. They examined it
and cancelled the invoice for the replacement. They also paid me £145 plus
VAT to cover my labour as well.
I had already hosed it down and taken photos of the failure which I felt
were caused by a blow hole in the casting which had been sealed with casting
mould material until it gave way after a long time in case of debate but my
apprehensions were unnecccessary.
You should discuss this with your installer but if they won't play ball
phone Ideal anyway

John

"Set Square" wrote in message
...


SNIP


Have you examined the boiler yourself to verify the plumber's diagnosis?
Is
there any chance that there's just a leaking joint rather than a corroded
heat exchanger? The heat exchanger is probably in several bits which bolt
together - with gaskets to seal the joints. Unless there were a serious
manufacturing defect, it seems more likely to me that a gasket has failed
than that the metal has corroded through.

No its a one piece casting job with pipes straight into the ports, metal to
metal

On Sun, 18 Sep 2005 11:15:00 +0100, a particular chimpanzee named Hugo
Nebula abuse@localhost randomly hit the keyboard and produced:

Long tale of woe...

I had another look at the heat exchanger today; there looks to be
surface rust on its underside, whether this is from the leak yesterday
and today I'm not sure, but it looks too much for 24 hours. Would
this have a bearing? [I'll try and post a few photos, but my ISP
isn't cooperating.]

What I thought was a discarded bottle of inhibitor was a boiler
de-scaler, probably from a previous attempt to cure the previous noisy
boiler. In answer to a question, the old boiler had been there for at
least twenty-five years.
--
Hugo Nebula
"If no-one on the internet wants a piece of this,
just how far from the pack have you strayed?"

On Sun, 18 Sep 2005 22:59:45 +0100, a particular chimpanzee named Hugo
Nebula abuse@localhost randomly hit the keyboard and produced:

On Sun, 18 Sep 2005 11:15:00 +0100, a particular chimpanzee named Hugo
Nebula abuse@localhost randomly hit the keyboard and produced:

Long tale of woe...

I had another look at the heat exchanger today; there looks to be
surface rust on its underside, whether this is from the leak yesterday
and today I'm not sure, but it looks too much for 24 hours. Would
this have a bearing? [I'll try and post a few photos, but my ISP
isn't cooperating.]

See http://www.ausn67.dsl.pipex.com/ideal_boiler.htm for photos of the
heat exchanger.
--
Hugo Nebula
"If no-one on the internet wants a piece of this,
just how far from the pack have you strayed?"

"Hugo Nebula" abuse@localhost wrote in message
...
On Sun, 18 Sep 2005 22:59:45 +0100, a particular chimpanzee named Hugo
Nebula abuse@localhost randomly hit the keyboard and produced:

On Sun, 18 Sep 2005 11:15:00 +0100, a particular chimpanzee named Hugo
Nebula abuse@localhost randomly hit the keyboard and produced:

Long tale of woe...

I had another look at the heat exchanger today; there looks to be
surface rust on its underside, whether this is from the leak yesterday
and today I'm not sure, but it looks too much for 24 hours. Would
this have a bearing? [I'll try and post a few photos, but my ISP
isn't cooperating.]

See http://www.ausn67.dsl.pipex.com/ideal_boiler.htm for photos of the
heat exchanger.

I would guess there is a blow hole in the casting somewhere between the
finning. Only way to be sure is to take it out, cut it in two and examine
it. Have you got a flexible optic inspection tool?
Ideals will more than likely assist - see my other post on this matter.

John