Just curiosity really, but on various occasions we have discussions here
that touch on the relative merits of the UK vs Euro style electrical
installations and fittings.

I had always thought that the UK regs and practices were amongst the
best, but perhaps not everyone agrees.

Anyone with experience of non UK electrical installations care to
comment on which systems they feel are better/worse and why?


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

"John Rumm" wrote in message
...
Just curiosity really, but on various occasions we have discussions here
that touch on the relative merits of the UK vs Euro style electrical
installations and fittings.

I had always thought that the UK regs and practices were amongst the
best, but perhaps not everyone agrees.

I don't agree for one. More importantly neither does almost every
electrical representative to the EU apart from the UK and Malta.


Anyone with experience of non UK electrical installations care to
comment on which systems they feel are better/worse and why?

The view of a friend working for the EU directorate on this matter in the
mid-90s was roughly as follows :

The UK plug/socket is dangerous and probably causes more electrical fires
than any other piece of electrical equipment. In the 90s the rest of Europe
worked on a harmonised version of the IEC plug/socket only for the UK to
scupper it. Note that the UK plug was actually designed in Sweden and
rejected as lethal, though we have since then added the shields to the L and
N pins.

Similarly although the IEE have done well getting ring mains systems safe,
it is felt they rely on diversity too much for a modern house where there
may be large numbers of high current consumption devices often in separate
rooms where the users do not realise they are using a common ring. Also the
allowed practice of adding almost uncontrolled numbers of extra sockets to a
ring makes this worse. It is accepted that UK house make far less use of
electrical heaters than some other countries due to our cheap supply of gas
but pointed out that this won't last indefinitely.

The proposed EU recommended wiring system consists of separate feeds to each
room with a small CU in that room with a breaker for lights and one for each
group of sockets/piece of equipment. The best CUs actually fit under the
light switch by the door which hinges up. A simple look round the room will
soon tell you if you are taking too much current (and the much more likely
to be correctly rated trip in that room blows anyway - not taking out the
whole house as in the UK). This is not to say that any particular country
in the EU follows this approach to the letter today.

There was the intention in the EU to try for harmonisation again on this in
2007 but of course there may be more important matters to worry about now.


Others will strongly disagree with this of course so I'll put my flak hat on
now :-)

In article ,
John Rumm writes:
Just curiosity really, but on various occasions we have discussions here
that touch on the relative merits of the UK vs Euro style electrical
installations and fittings.

I had always thought that the UK regs and practices were amongst the
best, but perhaps not everyone agrees.

Anyone with experience of non UK electrical installations care to
comment on which systems they feel are better/worse and why?

I've had some exposure to french wiring (and italian but
that was long enough ago I'm not sure I remember much of it),
and a little exposure in various other EU countries.

I guess ring circuits are the biggest difference with rest of
Europe. I rather like them, but I can't help thinking that if
I came across them for the first time in some other EU country,
I would probably think they were barmey. Chances are I wouldn't
actually understand all the design work behind them which
includes our 13A fused plugs for example. The ring circuit and
13A plug system is probably the most recently designed mains
power distribution system in Europe (certainly that I know of),
and unlike many of the others, it started with pretty much a
blank sheet, not compromising the design to be compatible with
some eariler system. (Ring circuits themselves go back much
further in the form of ring mains for street distribution.)
Lots of other countries have since adopted our 13A plug and
ring circuit, but they are all outside Europe.

France has very much better meters than we do. You can step
through all sorts of readings on the display just like on those
plug-in power monitors; voltage, current, power, power factor,
phase shift, peak current, peak power, and probably more things
I don't remember. Oh, peak and off-peak energy used of course;-)
No one ever calls to "read" the thing either -- it's done remotely.

--
Andrew Gabriel

Mike wrote:
"John Rumm" wrote in message
...

Anyone with experience of non UK electrical installations care to
comment on which systems they feel are better/worse and why?

I did a thread recently on South African wiring, where one 15A round
pin socket per house was standard, and supplied the entire house.
Total fuses in house: 1
RCDs: 0
Earths: 0
plugs and sockets on appliances: 0



The view of a friend working for the EU directorate on this matter in the
mid-90s was roughly as follows :

Others will strongly disagree with this of course so I'll put my flak hat on
now :-)

Evidently he didnt understand our system too much.


NT

wrote in message
ups.com...
Mike wrote:
"John Rumm" wrote in message
...

Anyone with experience of non UK electrical installations care to
comment on which systems they feel are better/worse and why?

I did a thread recently on South African wiring, where one 15A round
pin socket per house was standard, and supplied the entire house.
Total fuses in house: 1
RCDs: 0
Earths: 0
plugs and sockets on appliances: 0


At least the house had a fuse and at least one socket. :-) I've seen them
full of extension cables to each room, and all connected to a set of screw
terminal connectors. One shack in Conchasa had bell wire to all the pinched
sockets the man of the house obtained from a British run building site. He
saw the guys running the two core bell wire to some sockets on the site, and
he thought that's how they were connected. He didn't know the bell wire to
the sockets was for transformers to door alarm systems. The shack had a
fridge/freezer, a television and a microwave cooker that he'd also obtained
on his travels. :-)

A nice little fire starter right in the middle of a shanty town, wouldn't
you think? LOL




The view of a friend working for the EU directorate on this matter in
the
mid-90s was roughly as follows :

Others will strongly disagree with this of course so I'll put my flak
hat on
now :-)

Evidently he didnt understand our system too much.


NT


The wiring schemes used throughout Europe are pretty well standard now. We
all use PVC insulated cabling for the installations. We all use the same
sorts of safety protective systems. But it's all down to the use of the
socket designs really. The British three pin version has become safer with
the use of insulated pins, as Mike says, but the same also applied to the
two pin plug tops used in other countries. These too have had half
insulated pins fitted as standard, because they too had people touching the
live pin as the plug was connected / disconnected from the socket, and a
stray finger went round the face of the plug top.

All in all, the basic installation schemes are very similar now though. I
find that the biggest differences are found when you travel further a field.

not taking out the
whole house as in the UK).

Explain how please ? Thats a very sweeping statement.

Dave

Andrew Gabriel wrote:
... The ring circuit and
13A plug system is probably the most recently designed mains
power distribution system in Europe (certainly that I know of),
and unlike many of the others, it started with pretty much a
blank sheet, not compromising the design to be compatible with
some eariler system.

One design advantage of the 30A ring system was that two 15A radials
could be linked (with extra sockets, and changing the existing sockets
to 13A) and converted into a ring. I don't think this happened very
often in practice though.

Owain

Mike wrote:
The view of a friend working for the EU directorate on this matter in the
mid-90s was roughly as follows :
The UK plug/socket is dangerous and probably causes more electrical fires
than any other piece of electrical equipment.

Poorly fitted *plugs* were certainly a major concern, but hasn't that
been addressed by plugs fitted on appliances before sale?

From what I've seen of European plugs they're not very substantial
either, those with cord outlets parallel to the pins are vulnerable to
being pulled out of sockets by the flex, and they're not polarised, so
their ES lampholders can have either contact live.

Similarly although the IEE have done well getting ring mains systems safe,
it is felt they rely on diversity too much for a modern house where there
may be large numbers of high current consumption devices often in separate
rooms where the users do not realise they are using a common ring. Also the
allowed practice of adding almost uncontrolled numbers of extra sockets to a
ring makes this worse. It is accepted that UK house make far less use of
electrical heaters than some other countries due to our cheap supply of gas
but pointed out that this won't last indefinitely.

However the ring was never designed for supplying fixed heating, and
if/when gas runs out we're going to be stuck for cheap electricity. For
safety reasons, if the main gas supply network fails, the bulk consumers
of gas (the electricity generators) are taken offline first, rather than
disconnecting domestic consumers.

The growth in number of sockets required is mostly consumer electronics,
which are low-current appliances. The ring was also never designed for
the large number of high-current kitchen appliances we see, but that is
being addressed by the provision of a separate circuit for the kitchen.

The proposed EU recommended wiring system consists of separate feeds to each
room with a small CU in that room with a breaker for lights and one for each
group of sockets/piece of equipment. The best CUs actually fit under the
light switch by the door which hinges up. A simple look round the room will
soon tell you if you are taking too much current (and the much more likely
to be correctly rated trip in that room blows anyway - not taking out the
whole house as in the UK). This is not to say that any particular country
in the EU follows this approach to the letter today.

Which still means (if you have 20A circuits) that some combinations of 2
x 3kW heaters, in some or other sockets on the same or different
circuits, will or won't work. The advantage of the ring circuit is the
flexibility it gives for using appliances without worrying which socket
they're plugged into. That's based on diversity, which is a sound
engineering principle.

One of the main advantages of the ring circuit, designed for the
post-war housing needs, was that it used less material than lots of
separate radials. Presumably the "proposed EU recommended wiring system"
is supported by European consumer unit and cable manufacturers, but I
doubt if by anyone else.

Why would this arrangement have a "much more likely to be correctly
rated trip"? And UK trips (do you mean MCB or RCD?) don't take out the
whole house in a correctly designed installation. Whole-house RCDs are
deprecated.

Owain

On Tue, 31 May 2005 23:05:38 +0100, "Mike" wrote:


"John Rumm" wrote in message
...
Just curiosity really, but on various occasions we have discussions here
that touch on the relative merits of the UK vs Euro style electrical
installations and fittings.

I had always thought that the UK regs and practices were amongst the
best, but perhaps not everyone agrees.

I don't agree for one. More importantly neither does almost every
electrical representative to the EU apart from the UK and Malta.

I think you're misinterpreting the meaning of the term "the best"
here. Never mind all this quality of form and function
how's-yer-father.
--
Regards,
Mike Halmarack

Drop the EGG to email me.

Andrew Gabriel wrote:

France has very much better meters than we do.

They have (ok had) *the* definitive article
http://www.bipm.org/en/scientific/le...prototype.html

John Rumm wrote:

Just curiosity really, but on various occasions we have discussions here
that touch on the relative merits of the UK vs Euro style electrical
installations and fittings.

I had always thought that the UK regs and practices were amongst the
best, but perhaps not everyone agrees.

Anyone with experience of non UK electrical installations care to
comment on which systems they feel are better/worse and why?

Danish mains sockets - 4mm speaker plugs fit in them perfect so the
rest of the world has to change their well established speaker plug
standards to satisfy the poxy Danes. Utter ****s and their beer is
crap too :-)

UK is light years ahead of the yanks, never been impressed by any
european electrics either.

The proposed EU recommended wiring system consists of separate feeds to
each
room with a small CU in that room with a breaker for lights and one for
each
group of sockets/piece of equipment.

Oh joy. That sounds (a) cheap and (b) pretty.

The fact remains that the UK electrical system is statistically extremely
safe in comparison to the rest of the world.

Christian.

On Wed, 1 Jun 2005 09:48:31 +0100, "Christian McArdle"
wrote:

The proposed EU recommended wiring system consists of separate feeds to
each
room with a small CU in that room with a breaker for lights and one for
each
group of sockets/piece of equipment.

Oh joy. That sounds (a) cheap and (b) pretty.

The fact remains that the UK electrical system is statistically extremely
safe in comparison to the rest of the world.

Christian.

Are you saying that more people are killed or injured by electrical
energy in the rest of the world than in the UK?
The US penal system being a separate, special case..

--
Regards,
Mike Halmarack

Drop the EGG to email me.

Are you saying that more people are killed or injured by electrical
energy in the rest of the world than in the UK?
The US penal system being a separate, special case..

Per capita, yes.

Christian.

On Wed, 1 Jun 2005 10:08:01 +0100, "Christian McArdle"
wrote:

Are you saying that more people are killed or injured by electrical
energy in the rest of the world than in the UK?
The US penal system being a separate, special case..

Per capita, yes.

Christian.

Is that the result of a statistical survey?

--
Regards,
Mike Halmarack

Drop the EGG to email me.

Is that the result of a statistical survey?

Yes, but I can't remember the source.

Christian.

On Wed, 1 Jun 2005 10:37:55 +0100, "Christian McArdle"
wrote:

Is that the result of a statistical survey?

Yes, but I can't remember the source.

Christian.

When in doubt, I always nominate Loyd Grossman.

--
Regards,
Mike Halmarack

Drop the EGG to email me.

In article ,
Mike Halmarack writes:
Is that the result of a statistical survey?

It's very difficult to do, because no two countries collate any
figures the same way. For example, categorising a fire into
electrical installation, electrical appliance or non-electrical
is likely rather hit and miss, and the accuracy of any such
categorisation is likely to vary very widely. Some third world
countries appear to have very good safety stats, until you realise
most of the population have no access to electricity, nor any way
or reason to report electrical fatalities.

When I was looking into this some ~6 years ago, there were a
few attempts to produce unified stats. UK was somewhere around
2nd or 3rd safest depending exactly how you unified the figures.
(IIRC, one of the Scandanavian countries was safest, but I don't
recall which.)

--
Andrew Gabriel

Is that the result of a statistical survey?

Was your other statement about the 'whole house being taken out'
the result of a statistical survey or just you making a sweeping
statement.

Dave

On Wed, 01 Jun 2005 11:54:32 +0100, dave stanton
wrote:


Is that the result of a statistical survey?

Was your other statement about the 'whole house being taken out'
the result of a statistical survey or just you making a sweeping
statement.

Dave

I think you might be getting confused.
--
Regards,
Mike Halmarack

Drop the EGG to email me.

I think you might be getting confused.

Apologies, wrong Mike, sorry about that.

Dave

(Andrew Gabriel) wrote:

In article ,
Mike Halmarack writes:
Is that the result of a statistical survey?

It's very difficult to do, because no two countries collate any
figures the same way. For example, categorising a fire into
electrical installation, electrical appliance or non-electrical
is likely rather hit and miss, and the accuracy of any such
categorisation is likely to vary very widely. Some third world
countries appear to have very good safety stats, until you realise
most of the population have no access to electricity, nor any way
or reason to report electrical fatalities.

When I was looking into this some ~6 years ago, there were a
few attempts to produce unified stats. UK was somewhere around
2nd or 3rd safest depending exactly how you unified the figures.
(IIRC, one of the Scandanavian countries was safest, but I don't
recall which.)

You can eliminate Denmark for a start.

In article ,
JB writes:

You can eliminate Denmark for a start.

Why's that? (I've never been there).

Denmark is one of the countries which has some supplies where
neither main conductor is near ground potential. Some supplies
are 3-phase 230V delta (meaning you get the 230V between phases
and there's no 'neutral'). One leg of the delta is grounded
(so I suppose you could say 2 of the possible 3 230V supplies
have a neutral), but the other 230V supply has neither terminal
near ground potential as they'll both be around 132V from ground.

--
Andrew Gabriel

BigWallop wrote:

At least the house had a fuse and at least one socket. :-) I've seen them
full of extension cables to each room, and all connected to a set of screw
terminal connectors. One shack in Conchasa had bell wire to all the pinched
sockets the man of the house obtained from a British run building site. He
saw the guys running the two core bell wire to some sockets on the site, and
he thought that's how they were connected. He didn't know the bell wire to
the sockets was for transformers to door alarm systems. The shack had a
fridge/freezer, a television

well those 2 would run on 1A bell wire, long as no condensation on the
thermostat connections occurred.


and a microwave cooker that he'd also obtained
on his travels. :-)

On bell wire! gawd. 1.5kW... maybe 1.1kW. Would have to rely on low
duty cycle to avoid fire. 2 or 3 minutes it should just survive. I once
wired a stage lighting bank on bell wire, at the age of barely doule
figures, and it ran for several minutes before fuzenpoppen
wireallmelten funnysmellenburntwhysthat. Somehow it hadnt occurred to
me that putting a couiple of kW thru bellwire was a bad idea. I havent
forgotten


A nice little fire starter right in the middle of a shanty town, wouldn't
you think? LOL

Well, if he used 2 lengths of bell paralleled, one pair for L and one
for N it would have worked ok, for scary values of ok.

What Im wondering is what happens with the EHT to mains capacitances in
the transformer. The case would have EHT via small capacitances to
mains on it. Guess the current must have been low enough.

Reminds me of the caribbean setup where the gnerator feed cables were
various cut lengths twisted together and taped over, and the lot
dropped in a flooded ditch. Must have wasted fuel.


All in all, the basic installation schemes are very similar now though.

The ring circuit, plug fusing polarisation and earth is a fudamentally
different approach to safety to those used in most of Europe. Thats one
of the reasons Britain remains at odds with most of europe on
electrical wiring methods and standards.

Europe uses primarily non polarised sockets with unearthed appliances,
and unfused plugs relying of distribution board fusing, double
insulation and many circuits to avoid nuisance overload trips. This is
why they tend to assume our 30A rings are dangerously fused, and that
putting 50 sockets on one feed is potentially lethal.


NT

On 01 Jun 2005 15:19:39 GMT, (Andrew
Gabriel) wrote:

In article ,
JB writes:

You can eliminate Denmark for a start.

Why's that? (I've never been there).

It's very flat and you need to have a gob stopper in your mouth to be
able to speak the language.


Denmark is one of the countries which has some supplies where
neither main conductor is near ground potential. Some supplies
are 3-phase 230V delta (meaning you get the 230V between phases
and there's no 'neutral'). One leg of the delta is grounded
(so I suppose you could say 2 of the possible 3 230V supplies
have a neutral), but the other 230V supply has neither terminal
near ground potential as they'll both be around 132V from ground.

The mains sockets in many places are similar to the Schuko style in
terms of the pin spacings and sizes for the phase connections.
However, the earth requires a third male pin in the plug.

As you say, the phase connections are often not referenced to ground.

The unwary use a standard Schuko power cord (e.g. for IT equipment)
and this often causes the chassis to float at some entertainingly high
voltage relative to ground, albeit not with much poke, fortunately.

On equipment connected via (e.g.) a serial cable, the ground
connection is made through the protective ground of the cable, and
huge amounts of electrical noise and crap then start causing data
errors.

Many years ago, a customer of mine in Copenhagen had reported data
errors with a product that simply didn't exhibit them normally. He
had also helpfully installed said equipment in the ceiling void above
the tiles and complained when he climbed a step ladder, touched the
chassis and got a belt.

.... and their bacon's too salty...





--

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

The information contained in this post is copyright the
poster, and specifically may not be published in, or used by
http://www.diybanter.com

wrote in message
ups.com...
BigWallop wrote:
All in all, the basic installation schemes are very similar now though.

The ring circuit, plug fusing polarisation and earth is a fudamentally
different approach to safety to those used in most of Europe. Thats one
of the reasons Britain remains at odds with most of europe on
electrical wiring methods and standards.

Yes


Europe uses primarily non polarised sockets with unearthed appliances,

No - the proposed new standard socket had an earth pin so it was polarised
if you used the correct plug.


and unfused plugs relying of distribution board fusing, double
insulation and many circuits to avoid nuisance overload trips. This is
why they tend to assume our 30A rings are dangerously fused, and that
putting 50 sockets on one feed is potentially lethal.

Proposal was to move the trips to the room - a mini-CU in each room as I
mentioned, thereby cutting down on the km of cable needed.

"dave stanton" wrote in message
news

not taking out the whole house as in the UK).

Explain how please ? Thats a very sweeping statement.

I was thinking of older houses with about 6 fuses and possibly 1 RCD. All
lighting is on one trip, all sockets on another and so on. I agree more
modern housing is a bit better but that's a small percentage.

With the system proposed in the 90s, all rooms would have their own RCD so
you never take out anything outside the room.

"Owain" wrote in message
t...

From what I've seen of European plugs they're not very substantial
either, those with cord outlets parallel to the pins are vulnerable to
being pulled out of sockets by the flex, and they're not polarised, so
their ES lampholders can have either contact live.

There was a new common design which was the same spacing but was a lot
better.


However the ring was never designed for supplying fixed heating,

But is used for such - hence the concern.


The growth in number of sockets required is mostly consumer electronics,
which are low-current appliances. The ring was also never designed for
the large number of high-current kitchen appliances we see, but that is
being addressed by the provision of a separate circuit for the kitchen.

But really this should be many individual circuits as used in Germany.



The advantage of the ring circuit is the
flexibility it gives for using appliances without worrying which socket
they're plugged into. That's based on diversity, which is a sound
engineering principle.

That's only fine if you can see the whole ring.


One of the main advantages of the ring circuit, designed for the
post-war housing needs, was that it used less material than lots of
separate radials. Presumably the "proposed EU recommended wiring system"
is supported by European consumer unit and cable manufacturers, but I
doubt if by anyone else.

Most German and Scandanavian housing built since the 80s meets it.



Why would this arrangement have a "much more likely to be correctly
rated trip"? And UK trips (do you mean MCB or RCD?) don't take out the
whole house in a correctly designed installation.

Umtil the late 80s, most UK houses had all lighting on one MCD.


Whole-house RCDs are deprecated.

But very commonplace and still being installed.

On Tue, 31 May 2005 23:05:38 +0100, "Mike" wrote:

The UK plug/socket is dangerous and probably causes more electrical fires
than any other piece of electrical equipment.

Your friend was obviously a Frenchman. How many electrical fires in
the UK are caused by fixed wiring each year? How many deaths are
attributable to fires caused by fixed wiring?

What are the comparable figures for France and Germany?

In the 90s the rest of Europe
worked on a harmonised version of the IEC plug/socket only for the UK to
scupper it.

A Frenchman with no knowledge of history, how very unusual.

It is accepted that UK house make far less use of
electrical heaters than some other countries due to our cheap supply of gas
but pointed out that this won't last indefinitely.

By another Frenchman no doubt.

The proposed EU recommended wiring system consists of separate feeds to each
room with a small CU in that room with a breaker for lights and one for each
group of sockets/piece of equipment.

Oh good, a consumer unit in every room - how twee.

The best CUs actually fit under the
light switch by the door which hinges up.

One for the lights and one for the socket?

This is not to say that any particular country
in the EU follows this approach to the letter today.

How many do?

--
Peter Parry.
http://www.wpp.ltd.uk/

In article ,
"BigWallop" wrote:

(Snip)

The wiring schemes used throughout Europe are pretty well standard now. We
all use PVC insulated cabling for the installations. We all use the same
sorts of safety protective systems. But it's all down to the use of the
socket designs really. The British three pin version has become safer with
the use of insulated pins, as Mike says, but the same also applied to the
two pin plug tops used in other countries. These too have had half
insulated pins fitted as standard, because they too had people touching the
live pin as the plug was connected / disconnected from the socket, and a
stray finger went round the face of the plug top.

All in all, the basic installation schemes are very similar now though. I
find that the biggest differences are found when you travel further a field.

In the area of France where I go, the sockets are set in a 15mm (?)
depression. This is designed to stop fingers being in contact with the
pins when the plug is inserted. I have not seen insulated types.

Also, the sockets have an earth pin sticking out. This polarises the
pins. Even so, the electrician who wired up our place, connected L & N
depending upon the direction of the wind blowing at the time ;-) I
have had to go round some of them altering the connections so as to make
it right for the Fr/UK adaptors.

I understand that in different areas of France there are different
'standard' plugs and sockets (at least two?).

__
Marcus

--
Marcus
email: marcus {att} frenchay {dott} demon {pointt} co {periodd} uk

On Wed, 01 Jun 2005 10:24:26 +0100, Mike Halmarack
wrote:


Is that the result of a statistical survey?


No - its actually the result of collected data on real fires and
deaths.

--
Peter Parry.
http://www.wpp.ltd.uk/

I was thinking of older houses with about 6 fuses and possibly 1 RCD. All
lighting is on one trip, all sockets on another and so on. I agree more
modern housing is a bit better but that's a small percentage.

Which of course, and has been pointed out, is now verboten and has been
for quite a few years. Lighting circuits have been dual for years. Power
circuits not quite so long, in fact my house has one power ring circuit
circa 1970's but 2 x light circuits.
I don't really agree with your statements about UK circuits being
dangerous, especially when you look at the standard of practical wiring in
some countries. I don't mean design, I mean implementation by '
electricians' in those countries.

Dave

In article ,
"Mike" writes:

Whole-house RCDs are deprecated.

But very commonplace and still being installed.

They are part of the supplier's works in France.
However, they are rated at 500mA.

--
Andrew Gabriel

Mike wrote:
The growth in number of sockets required is mostly consumer electronics,
which are low-current appliances. The ring was also never designed for
the large number of high-current kitchen appliances we see, but that is
being addressed by the provision of a separate circuit for the kitchen.
But really this should be many individual circuits as used in Germany.

But why install 8 20A circuits just so you can plug a microwave and a
toaster anywhere in a kitchen, when one 30A circuit does just as well.
If the circumstances are such that a ring circuit is inappropriate then
a ring circuit is inappropriate - that doesn't mean that radial circuits
are always appropriate.

Owain

In article ,
Marcus Foreman writes:
In the area of France where I go, the sockets are set in a 15mm (?)
depression. This is designed to stop fingers being in contact with the
pins when the plug is inserted. I have not seen insulated types.

The 2-pin 6A (IIRC) connectors have part-insulated pins.

Also, the sockets have an earth pin sticking out. This polarises the
pins. Even so, the electrician who wired up our place, connected L & N
depending upon the direction of the wind blowing at the time ;-) I
have had to go round some of them altering the connections so as to make
it right for the Fr/UK adaptors.

There is no defined polarisation for the French/Belgium socket,
even though the plug is not reversible. If you have any double
socket outlets or two-way adaptors, you will very likely find
they are hardwired the opposite way round.

I understand that in different areas of France there are different
'standard' plugs and sockets (at least two?).

Some parts of France weren't always in France, but most of France
is the connector you are describing.

--
Andrew Gabriel

"dave stanton" wrote in message
news
I don't really agree with your statements about UK circuits being
dangerous,

Comments were from the EU harmonisation committee. I just happen to know
one of the EU reps on the committee.


especially when you look at the standard of practical wiring in
some countries. I don't mean design, I mean implementation by '
electricians' in those countries.

Quality of work is a problem in all fields. But a single set of clear
standards applicable in all countries would be a good start to getting
improvements.

"Owain" wrote in message
...
Mike wrote:
The growth in number of sockets required is mostly consumer electronics,
which are low-current appliances. The ring was also never designed for
the large number of high-current kitchen appliances we see, but that is
being addressed by the provision of a separate circuit for the kitchen.
But really this should be many individual circuits as used in Germany.

But why install 8 20A circuits just so you can plug a microwave and a
toaster anywhere in a kitchen, when one 30A circuit does just as well.
If the circumstances are such that a ring circuit is inappropriate then
a ring circuit is inappropriate - that doesn't mean that radial circuits
are always appropriate.


Tell that to the Germans who still want radials all the way back to the
house's mains entry point. The use of radials to each room where another
small CU feed short radials was felt to be a good compromise by many and
matches commercial building installation practice in many EU countries.

"Peter Parry" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 31 May 2005 23:05:38 +0100, "Mike" wrote:

The UK plug/socket is dangerous and probably causes more electrical fires
than any other piece of electrical equipment.

Your friend was obviously a Frenchman.

A Scot actually.

Mike wrote:
wrote in message

Europe uses primarily non polarised sockets with unearthed appliances,

No - the proposed new standard socket had an earth pin so it was polarised
if you used the correct plug.

new? The question is whats used now. The french plugs I saw and used
were 2 round pins, no E, no polarisation, no cord grip. I gather theyre
illegal there now. The main problem was copper whiskers sticking out
near the pins, since the pins screwed home onto the wires, with almost
no shrouding and just a bit of card to insulate. ISTR paying about 11p
for the plugs.


and unfused plugs relying of distribution board fusing, double
insulation and many circuits to avoid nuisance overload trips. This is
why they tend to assume our 30A rings are dangerously fused, and that
putting 50 sockets on one feed is potentially lethal.

Proposal was to move the trips to the room - a mini-CU in each room as I
mentioned, thereby cutting down on the km of cable needed.

but meaning 10 CUs needed instead of 1... crazy. And with no rings you
still need more cable per room. A daft expensive solution to a non
problem - just like part p.


NT

Mike wrote:
"dave stanton" wrote in message
news

I don't really agree with your statements about UK circuits being
dangerous,

Comments were from the EU harmonisation committee. I just happen to know
one of the EU reps on the committee.

If the Eu harmonisation committee doesnt even understand the british
system and why its safe...


Quality of work is a problem in all fields. But a single set of clear
standards applicable in all countries would be a good start to getting
improvements.

illogical


NT