Hello,
I recently engaged a window company to quote for replacement windows.

At the quoting stage i had some minor reservations but just put that
down to my general distrust of the window industry.

I went to the survey stage and had another guy round to measure up.

I got the impression that he wasnt a direct employee and contracted as
a surveyor. He took about 45 mins to survey.

After the survey stage i decided that i didnt want to engage this
company and wrote and told them so. They were ok with this but said
they;d bill for the survey. I accpet that they may have incurred some
costs but then we come to what is a reasonable cost?.

In their T&C's they say that if they survey and chose not to continue
with the job then they reserve the right to cancel. There is no
mention of post survey cancellation by the customer.

Any experinces/feedback gratefully received

A


Remove antispam and add 670 after bra to email

Be a good Global citizen-CONSUMECONFORMOBEY

Circumcision- A crime and an abuse.
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In article , Tarquinlinbin
wrote:
Hello,
I recently engaged a window company to quote for replacement windows.

At the quoting stage i had some minor reservations but just put that
down to my general distrust of the window industry.

I went to the survey stage and had another guy round to measure up.

I got the impression that he wasnt a direct employee and contracted as
a surveyor. He took about 45 mins to survey.

After the survey stage i decided that i didnt want to engage this
company and wrote and told them so. They were ok with this but said
they;d bill for the survey. I accpet that they may have incurred some
costs but then we come to what is a reasonable cost?.

At one point I did these surveys (and plans) for a conservatory company:
I was on a set rate that was effectively 1-1.5% of the job cost (the
salesman got 10%!). I'd reckon that probably £100 +/- is fair especially
if they're accepting your cancellation and the contract doesn't
explicitly allow you to do so.

--
Tony Bryer SDA UK 'Software to build on' http://www.sda.co.uk
Free SEDBUK boiler database browser http://www.sda.co.uk/qsedbuk.htm
[Latest version QSEDBUK 1.10 released 4 April 2005]

On Thu, 26 May 2005 12:19:35 +0100, Tony Bryer
wrote:

In article , Tarquinlinbin
wrote:
Hello,
I recently engaged a window company to quote for replacement windows.

At the quoting stage i had some minor reservations but just put that
down to my general distrust of the window industry.

I went to the survey stage and had another guy round to measure up.

I got the impression that he wasnt a direct employee and contracted as
a surveyor. He took about 45 mins to survey.

After the survey stage i decided that i didnt want to engage this
company and wrote and told them so. They were ok with this but said
they;d bill for the survey. I accpet that they may have incurred some
costs but then we come to what is a reasonable cost?.

At one point I did these surveys (and plans) for a conservatory company:
I was on a set rate that was effectively 1-1.5% of the job cost (the
salesman got 10%!). I'd reckon that probably £100 +/- is fair especially
if they're accepting your cancellation and the contract doesn't
explicitly allow you to do so.


How long have you been going straight, Tony? :-)



--

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

The information contained in this post is copyright the
poster, and specifically may not be published in, or used by
http://www.diybanter.com

On Thu, 26 May 2005 10:10:12 +0100, tarquinlinbin
wrote:

Hello,
I recently engaged a window company to quote for replacement windows.

At the quoting stage i had some minor reservations but just put that
down to my general distrust of the window industry.

I went to the survey stage and had another guy round to measure up.

I got the impression that he wasnt a direct employee and contracted as
a surveyor. He took about 45 mins to survey.

After the survey stage i decided that i didnt want to engage this
company and wrote and told them so. They were ok with this but said
they;d bill for the survey. I accpet that they may have incurred some
costs but then we come to what is a reasonable cost?.

In their T&C's they say that if they survey and chose not to continue
with the job then they reserve the right to cancel. There is no
mention of post survey cancellation by the customer.

Any experinces/feedback gratefully received

I'd say that most established businesses are out to screw you, though
some try to make it more of a mutual pleasure than others.
It used to get blamed a lot on the pressures of competition, it often
still does. It's much more to do with pressures of taxation though.
The relentless demand from above kills off any hope of benevolence or
genuine customer care in very short order. The guvnors gets the gravy
and we get to eat each other. Thank goodness for Loyd Grossman's
fabulous sauces which help to take the bitter taste away.
--
Regards,
Mike Halmarack

Drop the EGG to email me.

On Thu, 26 May 2005 12:55:10 +0100, Mike Halmarack
wrote:

On Thu, 26 May 2005 10:10:12 +0100, tarquinlinbin
wrote:

Hello,
I recently engaged a window company to quote for replacement windows.

At the quoting stage i had some minor reservations but just put that
down to my general distrust of the window industry.

I went to the survey stage and had another guy round to measure up.

I got the impression that he wasnt a direct employee and contracted as
a surveyor. He took about 45 mins to survey.

After the survey stage i decided that i didnt want to engage this
company and wrote and told them so. They were ok with this but said
they;d bill for the survey. I accpet that they may have incurred some
costs but then we come to what is a reasonable cost?.

In their T&C's they say that if they survey and chose not to continue
with the job then they reserve the right to cancel. There is no
mention of post survey cancellation by the customer.

Any experinces/feedback gratefully received

I'd say that most established businesses are out to screw you, though
some try to make it more of a mutual pleasure than others.
It used to get blamed a lot on the pressures of competition, it often
still does. It's much more to do with pressures of taxation though.
The relentless demand from above kills off any hope of benevolence or
genuine customer care in very short order. The guvnors gets the gravy
and we get to eat each other. Thank goodness for Loyd Grossman's
fabulous sauces which help to take the bitter taste away.

I think I prefer the free market to the strange, affected accent of
Loyd Grossman.




--

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

The information contained in this post is copyright the
poster, and specifically may not be published in, or used by
http://www.diybanter.com

On Thu, 26 May 2005 13:07:26 +0100, Andy Hall
wrote:

On Thu, 26 May 2005 12:55:10 +0100, Mike Halmarack
wrote:

On Thu, 26 May 2005 10:10:12 +0100, tarquinlinbin
wrote:

Hello,
I recently engaged a window company to quote for replacement windows.

At the quoting stage i had some minor reservations but just put that
down to my general distrust of the window industry.

I went to the survey stage and had another guy round to measure up.

I got the impression that he wasnt a direct employee and contracted as
a surveyor. He took about 45 mins to survey.

After the survey stage i decided that i didnt want to engage this
company and wrote and told them so. They were ok with this but said
they;d bill for the survey. I accpet that they may have incurred some
costs but then we come to what is a reasonable cost?.

In their T&C's they say that if they survey and chose not to continue
with the job then they reserve the right to cancel. There is no
mention of post survey cancellation by the customer.

Any experinces/feedback gratefully received

I'd say that most established businesses are out to screw you, though
some try to make it more of a mutual pleasure than others.
It used to get blamed a lot on the pressures of competition, it often
still does. It's much more to do with pressures of taxation though.
The relentless demand from above kills off any hope of benevolence or
genuine customer care in very short order. The guvnors gets the gravy
and we get to eat each other. Thank goodness for Loyd Grossman's
fabulous sauces which help to take the bitter taste away.

I think I prefer the free market to the strange, affected accent of
Loyd Grossman.

I knew you were smart Andy! The best I can find is car boot sales,
which are pretty cheap but Free Market WOW! Gimme the addrass ASAP.
P.S Don't mock the afflicted.
--
Regards,
Mike Halmarack

Drop the EGG to email me.

On Thu, 26 May 2005 13:10:36 +0100, Mike Halmarack
wrote:

Gimme the addrass

I had Loyd's Curry sauce on my mind at the time.
--
Regards,
Mike Halmarack

Drop the EGG to email me.

On Thu, 26 May 2005 13:14:52 +0100, Mike Halmarack
wrote:

On Thu, 26 May 2005 13:10:36 +0100, Mike Halmarack
wrote:

Gimme the addrass

I had Loyd's Curry sauce on my mind at the time.


Curry sauce? in a jar? yuk. :-)

Curry is something that needs to be made from fresh and individual
spices.



--

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

The information contained in this post is copyright the
poster, and specifically may not be published in, or used by
http://www.diybanter.com

On Thu, 26 May 2005 13:22:01 +0100, Andy Hall
wrote:

On Thu, 26 May 2005 13:14:52 +0100, Mike Halmarack
wrote:

On Thu, 26 May 2005 13:10:36 +0100, Mike Halmarack
wrote:

Gimme the addrass

I had Loyd's Curry sauce on my mind at the time.


Curry sauce? in a jar? yuk. :-)

Curry is something that needs to be made from fresh and individual
spices.

Quite dull and colourless by comparison with the unreal thing.
Unless you provide your own toxic agents.
--
Regards,
Mike Halmarack

Drop the EGG to email me.

On Thu, 26 May 2005 13:32:56 +0100, tarquinlinbin
wrote:

On Thu, 26 May 2005 13:22:01 +0100, Andy Hall
wrote:

On Thu, 26 May 2005 13:14:52 +0100, Mike Halmarack
wrote:

On Thu, 26 May 2005 13:10:36 +0100, Mike Halmarack
wrote:

Gimme the addrass

I had Loyd's Curry sauce on my mind at the time.


Curry sauce? in a jar? yuk. :-)

Curry is something that needs to be made from fresh and individual
spices.
Are you guys going to talk curry sauce or talk about my problemette ??
Remove antispam and add 670 after bra to email

You were just the horses doofer mate.
--
Regards,
Mike Halmarack

Drop the EGG to email me.

On Thu, 26 May 2005 13:35:25 +0100, Andy Hall
wrote:

On Thu, 26 May 2005 13:22:03 +0100, Mike Halmarack
wrote:

On Thu, 26 May 2005 13:22:01 +0100, Andy Hall
wrote:

On Thu, 26 May 2005 13:14:52 +0100, Mike Halmarack
wrote:

On Thu, 26 May 2005 13:10:36 +0100, Mike Halmarack
wrote:

Gimme the addrass

I had Loyd's Curry sauce on my mind at the time.


Curry sauce? in a jar? yuk. :-)

Curry is something that needs to be made from fresh and individual
spices.

Quite dull and colourless by comparison with the unreal thing.
Unless you provide your own toxic agents.


Depends what you put in. Personally I would rather know exactly
what I am eating and avoid the E's.

The all nighters too much for yer eh?
--
Regards,
Mike Halmarack

Drop the EGG to email me.

On Thu, 26 May 2005 13:22:01 +0100, Andy Hall
wrote:

On Thu, 26 May 2005 13:14:52 +0100, Mike Halmarack
wrote:

On Thu, 26 May 2005 13:10:36 +0100, Mike Halmarack
wrote:

Gimme the addrass

I had Loyd's Curry sauce on my mind at the time.


Curry sauce? in a jar? yuk. :-)

Curry is something that needs to be made from fresh and individual
spices.
Are you guys going to talk curry sauce or talk about my problemette ??
Remove antispam and add 670 after bra to email

Be a good Global citizen-CONSUMECONFORMOBEY

Circumcision- A crime and an abuse.
http://www.sexuallymutilatedchild.org/

On Thu, 26 May 2005 13:10:36 +0100, Mike Halmarack
wrote:


I'd say that most established businesses are out to screw you, though
some try to make it more of a mutual pleasure than others.
It used to get blamed a lot on the pressures of competition, it often
still does. It's much more to do with pressures of taxation though.
The relentless demand from above kills off any hope of benevolence or
genuine customer care in very short order. The guvnors gets the gravy
and we get to eat each other. Thank goodness for Loyd Grossman's
fabulous sauces which help to take the bitter taste away.

I think I prefer the free market to the strange, affected accent of
Loyd Grossman.

I knew you were smart Andy! The best I can find is car boot sales,
which are pretty cheap but Free Market WOW! Gimme the addrass ASAP.
P.S Don't mock the afflicted.

Ah.. I just don't have a negative perspective about established
businesses. I don't think that people come into their offices every
day with the express intent in mind of how to screw the customer.

Certainly businesses do have the objective of maximising the amount of
money that they can obtain from a customer and in the shortest time
possible and for the least cost. However, that is simplistic. If
the customer feels that they have been screwed, they won't buy from
that business again. If it's a business that relies on repeat
orders, then having customers feeling screwed for whatever reason is
counterproductive. Businesses that achieve mainly one-time sales are
generally in a competitive market and benefit from customer
recommendation. That is not to say that large national businesses
making one time sales don't screw customers - they spend marketing
money on image and the numbers game. The windows industry certainly
has this issue.

It's certainly true that there is far too much government interference
in business, although corporate taxation in the UK is not the highest
in the world by a long way.

If the owners of local and regional businesses make good money out of
them, then good for them as far as I am concerned because they took
the initial risk.

For the large national and multinational companies, the "guvnors" are
ultimately us through our investments directly or indirectly in the
stock market. We would like to maximise the return on our
investments, so there is no point in complaining if we feel that said
companies are making a good profit.




--

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

The information contained in this post is copyright the
poster, and specifically may not be published in, or used by
http://www.diybanter.com

On Thu, 26 May 2005 13:22:03 +0100, Mike Halmarack
wrote:

On Thu, 26 May 2005 13:22:01 +0100, Andy Hall
wrote:

On Thu, 26 May 2005 13:14:52 +0100, Mike Halmarack
wrote:

On Thu, 26 May 2005 13:10:36 +0100, Mike Halmarack
wrote:

Gimme the addrass

I had Loyd's Curry sauce on my mind at the time.


Curry sauce? in a jar? yuk. :-)

Curry is something that needs to be made from fresh and individual
spices.

Quite dull and colourless by comparison with the unreal thing.
Unless you provide your own toxic agents.


Depends what you put in. Personally I would rather know exactly
what I am eating and avoid the E's.



--

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

The information contained in this post is copyright the
poster, and specifically may not be published in, or used by
http://www.diybanter.com

On Thu, 26 May 2005 13:34:15 +0100, Andy Hall
wrote:

Ah.. I just don't have a negative perspective about established
businesses.

Of course, or how could you still participate so heartily?

I don't think that people come into their offices every
day with the express intent in mind of how to screw the customer.

They have little time to give it a thought.
It's a condition induced by circumstances beyond their direct control.

Certainly businesses do have the objective of maximising the amount of
money that they can obtain from a customer and in the shortest time
possible and for the least cost.

Yes.

However, that is simplistic. If
the customer feels that they have been screwed, they won't buy from
that business again. If it's a business that relies on repeat
orders, then having customers feeling screwed for whatever reason is
counterproductive. Businesses that achieve mainly one-time sales are
generally in a competitive market and benefit from customer
recommendation.

If it's not possible to survive without screwing the customer then
the competition will be doing the same. So what's to choose between
them?

That is not to say that large national businesses
making one time sales don't screw customers - they spend marketing
money on image and the numbers game. The windows industry certainly
has this issue.

It's certainly true that there is far too much government interference
in business, although corporate taxation in the UK is not the highest
in the world by a long way.

If the owners of local and regional businesses make good money out of
them, then good for them as far as I am concerned because they took
the initial risk.

For the large national and multinational companies, the "guvnors" are
ultimately us through our investments directly or indirectly in the
stock market. We would like to maximise the return on our
investments, so there is no point in complaining if we feel that said
companies are making a good profit.

Glad to hear that you own the world you live in and that all is
generally well with it. IMO though, this is a level of self deception
that's necessary to allow you to continue to participate. That's also
why the situation will continue to deteriorate.
--
Regards,
Mike Halmarack

Drop the EGG to email me.

On Thu, 26 May 2005 13:32:56 +0100, tarquinlinbin
wrote:

On Thu, 26 May 2005 13:22:01 +0100, Andy Hall
wrote:

On Thu, 26 May 2005 13:14:52 +0100, Mike Halmarack
wrote:

On Thu, 26 May 2005 13:10:36 +0100, Mike Halmarack
wrote:

Gimme the addrass

I had Loyd's Curry sauce on my mind at the time.


Curry sauce? in a jar? yuk. :-)

Curry is something that needs to be made from fresh and individual
spices.
Are you guys going to talk curry sauce or talk about my problemette ??

I don't think it's a big problem.

a) Did the company tell you that there would be a charge for the
survey if you didn't proceed?

b) Did they give you a document that you signed where a charge was in
the smallprint for said survey?

If the answer to (a) and (b) is no, then I would politely decline
their request for money.

When you also consider that their Ts & Cs allowed them to back out,
then they in turn have produced an agreement that is far from even
handed.

Undoubtedly they have incurred a cost in doing the survey. That's
how life is - it's often called cost of sale. The costs involved in
lost deals are amortised over the customers who do eventually buy.

There are not many companies that can get away with telling the
customer that they need to pay for the work involved in producing a
proposal for a sale. When this is done because the work involved is
substantial, the supplier should make that clear and make it the
subject of a separate transaction.

If it were me, I would write to them pointing out that they didn't
explain this at the time of the survey, you didn't agree to it, and
very sorry but you do not consider that a payment is due.
More than likely, it's a try-on and you will hear nothing more. Other
than that they may try to bill you and on non-payment try to sue you.

Let's say they try for £100-200. It would cost them more than that
in going after you. They would calculate that most people at that
stage would pay up because they don't want the time and hassle of
going to court. It becomes a bluff, just like Loyd Grossman
pretending that his products have quality. Personally I would call
it.





--

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

The information contained in this post is copyright the
poster, and specifically may not be published in, or used by
http://www.diybanter.com

On Thu, 26 May 2005 13:32:47 +0100, Mike Halmarack
wrote:

On Thu, 26 May 2005 13:35:25 +0100, Andy Hall
wrote:

On Thu, 26 May 2005 13:22:03 +0100, Mike Halmarack
wrote:

On Thu, 26 May 2005 13:22:01 +0100, Andy Hall
wrote:

On Thu, 26 May 2005 13:14:52 +0100, Mike Halmarack
wrote:

On Thu, 26 May 2005 13:10:36 +0100, Mike Halmarack
wrote:

Gimme the addrass

I had Loyd's Curry sauce on my mind at the time.


Curry sauce? in a jar? yuk. :-)

Curry is something that needs to be made from fresh and individual
spices.

Quite dull and colourless by comparison with the unreal thing.
Unless you provide your own toxic agents.


Depends what you put in. Personally I would rather know exactly
what I am eating and avoid the E's.

The all nighters too much for yer eh?

Nah....




--

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

The information contained in this post is copyright the
poster, and specifically may not be published in, or used by
http://www.diybanter.com

Mike Halmarack wrote:
On Thu, 26 May 2005 13:34:15 +0100, Andy Hall
wrote:


Ah.. I just don't have a negative perspective about established
businesses.


Of course, or how could you still participate so heartily?

Glad to hear that you own the world you live in and that all is
generally well with it. IMO though, this is a level of self deception
that's necessary to allow you to continue to participate. That's also
why the situation will continue to deteriorate.


I'm curious Mike - what's your proposition for a better, fairer world?


--
Grunff

On Thu, 26 May 2005 14:02:02 +0100, Grunff wrote:

Mike Halmarack wrote:
On Thu, 26 May 2005 13:34:15 +0100, Andy Hall
wrote:


Ah.. I just don't have a negative perspective about established
businesses.


Of course, or how could you still participate so heartily?

Glad to hear that you own the world you live in and that all is
generally well with it. IMO though, this is a level of self deception
that's necessary to allow you to continue to participate. That's also
why the situation will continue to deteriorate.


I'm curious Mike - what's your proposition for a better, fairer world?

I don't have one but I'm prepared to consider the possibilities.
--
Regards,
Mike Halmarack

Drop the EGG to email me.

On 26 May 2005 13:09:03 GMT, (Andrew
Gabriel) wrote:

In article ,
Mike Halmarack writes:
Thank goodness for Loyd Grossman's
fabulous sauces which help to take the bitter taste away.

Ah, the ones with the red boot polish in them -- never
tried them myself as I don't have any red boots.

You're missing the object of the exercise which is to allow even those
without red boots to enjoy the benefits of red boot polish.
--
Regards,
Mike Halmarack

Drop the EGG to email me.

In article ,
Mike Halmarack writes:
Thank goodness for Loyd Grossman's
fabulous sauces which help to take the bitter taste away.

Ah, the ones with the red boot polish in them -- never
tried them myself as I don't have any red boots.

--
Andrew Gabriel

On Thu, 26 May 2005 14:40:23 +0100, Grunff wrote:

Mike Halmarack wrote:

I'm curious Mike - what's your proposition for a better, fairer world?


I don't have one but I'm prepared to consider the possibilities.

:-(

I was hoping for enlightenment...

Nowt wrong with hoping.
--
Regards,
Mike Halmarack

Drop the EGG to email me.

Mike Halmarack wrote:

I'm curious Mike - what's your proposition for a better, fairer world?


I don't have one but I'm prepared to consider the possibilities.

:-(

I was hoping for enlightenment...


--
Grunff

In article , Andy Hall
wrote:
How long have you been going straight, Tony? :-)

I haven't drawn plans for money for about 12 years now. But the
conservatory plans were a nice earner while it lasted. Most went
straight onto a flat wall and the plan was really for the erectors.
They may have been 'made to measure' as far as the customer was
concerned but they were all standard modules and after a few weeks you
could draw the plans (pre-CAD days) on autopilot. I generally got
£100-150 for 3 hours work in total, not bad in the late 1980's - though
their best salesman reputedly earned £86K!

The boss of the firm wanted me to do more of their design work but I
declined, telling him that they could have 1/3 of my time, no mo
eggs in one basket and all that. He asked whether they were paying me
enough - I agreed that the rate was very fair, and that it was nice
'clean' work - I agreed, in response to which he said I must be stupid
to decline more of the same. When they went broke owing me £1,500 (and
everyone else £300K) I was very glad I'd not been tempted to do more.

--
Tony Bryer SDA UK 'Software to build on' http://www.sda.co.uk
Free SEDBUK boiler database browser http://www.sda.co.uk/qsedbuk.htm
[Latest version QSEDBUK 1.10 released 4 April 2005]

On Thu, 26 May 2005 15:42:19 +0100, Tony Bryer
wrote:

In article , Andy Hall
wrote:
How long have you been going straight, Tony? :-)

I haven't drawn plans for money for about 12 years now. But the
conservatory plans were a nice earner while it lasted. Most went
straight onto a flat wall and the plan was really for the erectors.
They may have been 'made to measure' as far as the customer was
concerned but they were all standard modules and after a few weeks you
could draw the plans (pre-CAD days) on autopilot. I generally got
£100-150 for 3 hours work in total, not bad in the late 1980's - though
their best salesman reputedly earned £86K!

It certainly wasn't a bad rate for that era, especially if there was
little or no come-back.

I suppose that said salesman would have been earning around £150k at
today's prices, but was probably on commission only or 20/80 split.
If he was generating £3m for the company (not impossible) he will have
earned every penny.



The boss of the firm wanted me to do more of their design work but I
declined, telling him that they could have 1/3 of my time, no mo
eggs in one basket and all that. He asked whether they were paying me
enough - I agreed that the rate was very fair, and that it was nice
'clean' work - I agreed, in response to which he said I must be stupid
to decline more of the same. When they went broke owing me £1,500 (and
everyone else £300K) I was very glad I'd not been tempted to do more.

I suspect that that business (apart from the big guys who manufacture)
is all about cash flow). Couple that with having to trim margins to
win business and you have all the ingredients for going broke,

In that respect, the software business is attractive, isn't it :-)



--

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

The information contained in this post is copyright the
poster, and specifically may not be published in, or used by
http://www.diybanter.com

On Thu, 26 May 2005 13:50:04 +0100, Mike Halmarack
wrote:

On Thu, 26 May 2005 13:34:15 +0100, Andy Hall
wrote:

Ah.. I just don't have a negative perspective about established
businesses.

Of course, or how could you still participate so heartily?

I don't think that people come into their offices every
day with the express intent in mind of how to screw the customer.

They have little time to give it a thought.
It's a condition induced by circumstances beyond their direct control.


Yes and no. It's really the responsibility of senior management to
create a culture of maximising business profitability. In most cases,
for one reason or another, this implies having happy customers,
whether it be for repeat business, recommendation or even just not
having customers who won't pay.



Certainly businesses do have the objective of maximising the amount of
money that they can obtain from a customer and in the shortest time
possible and for the least cost.

Yes.

However, that is simplistic. If
the customer feels that they have been screwed, they won't buy from
that business again. If it's a business that relies on repeat
orders, then having customers feeling screwed for whatever reason is
counterproductive. Businesses that achieve mainly one-time sales are
generally in a competitive market and benefit from customer
recommendation.

If it's not possible to survive without screwing the customer then
the competition will be doing the same. So what's to choose between
them?

Oh, come on, that's jaundiced. A business transaction should be
beneficial for both parties. That means that the customer gets what
he wants for a fair price and the supplier makes sufficient money to
sustain his business and please his shareholders.

If customers have the attitude that they want the lowest price, come
what may and that any profit on the part of the supplier constitutes
them being ripped off, then the problem lies with the customer. It's
not reasonable to expect a quality product or service *and* for the
supplier not to make a good margin to be there to sustain that.



That is not to say that large national businesses
making one time sales don't screw customers - they spend marketing
money on image and the numbers game. The windows industry certainly
has this issue.

It's certainly true that there is far too much government interference
in business, although corporate taxation in the UK is not the highest
in the world by a long way.

If the owners of local and regional businesses make good money out of
them, then good for them as far as I am concerned because they took
the initial risk.

For the large national and multinational companies, the "guvnors" are
ultimately us through our investments directly or indirectly in the
stock market. We would like to maximise the return on our
investments, so there is no point in complaining if we feel that said
companies are making a good profit.

Glad to hear that you own the world you live in and that all is
generally well with it. IMO though, this is a level of self deception
that's necessary to allow you to continue to participate. That's also
why the situation will continue to deteriorate.


Everybody owns the world that they live in to a greater or a lesser
extent. Generally the extent depends on their willingness tp
participate and their understanding of the rules of the game.



--

..andy

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"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
I suspect that that business (apart from the big guys who manufacture)
is all about cash flow). Couple that with having to trim margins to
win business and you have all the ingredients for going broke,

In that respect, the software business is attractive, isn't it :-)

Uh ... no ! :-(

On Thu, 26 May 2005 21:14:11 +0100, "Mike" wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
.. .
I suspect that that business (apart from the big guys who manufacture)
is all about cash flow). Couple that with having to trim margins to
win business and you have all the ingredients for going broke,

In that respect, the software business is attractive, isn't it :-)

Uh ... no ! :-(

It's all relative ;-)

--

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

The information contained in this post is copyright the
poster, and specifically may not be published in, or used by
http://www.diybanter.com

In article , Andy Hall
wrote:
I suppose that said salesman would have been earning around £150k at
today's prices, but was probably on commission only or 20/80 split.
If he was generating £3m for the company (not impossible) he will
have earned every penny.

Commission only, basically 10%. I never found out the exact details
but AIUI there was a list price (not to be confused with 'List Price'
off which you give 50% discount ... but only if you sign tonight) and
a floor price below which you could not go. If you sold at list you
got 10%. If you could sell above list you got 10% of list and a much
greater proportion of the excess. If you sold between the floor and
list price you got an appropriately reduced commission.

--
Tony Bryer SDA UK 'Software to build on' http://www.sda.co.uk
Free SEDBUK boiler database browser http://www.sda.co.uk/qsedbuk.htm
[Latest version QSEDBUK 1.10 released 4 April 2005]

On Thu, 26 May 2005 20:00:45 +0100, Andy Hall
wrote:

On Thu, 26 May 2005 13:50:04 +0100, Mike Halmarack
wrote:

On Thu, 26 May 2005 13:34:15 +0100, Andy Hall
wrote:

Ah.. I just don't have a negative perspective about established
businesses.

Of course, or how could you still participate so heartily?

I don't think that people come into their offices every
day with the express intent in mind of how to screw the customer.

They have little time to give it a thought.
It's a condition induced by circumstances beyond their direct control.


Yes and no. It's really the responsibility of senior management to
create a culture of maximising business profitability. In most cases,
for one reason or another, this implies having happy customers,
whether it be for repeat business, recommendation or even just not
having customers who won't pay.


Maybe in the world of business school text books. My experience shows
that currently, if a business offers a quality product at a reasonable
price and with adequate support, this merely goes to prove that their
market isn't being exploited to the max.
Good business practice went down the drain with good banking practice,
at about the same time.


Certainly businesses do have the objective of maximising the amount of
money that they can obtain from a customer and in the shortest time
possible and for the least cost.

Yes.

However, that is simplistic. If
the customer feels that they have been screwed, they won't buy from
that business again. If it's a business that relies on repeat
orders, then having customers feeling screwed for whatever reason is
counterproductive. Businesses that achieve mainly one-time sales are
generally in a competitive market and benefit from customer
recommendation.

If it's not possible to survive without screwing the customer then
the competition will be doing the same. So what's to choose between
them?

Oh, come on, that's jaundiced.

When seen through your rose tinted safety glasses.


A business transaction should be
beneficial for both parties. That means that the customer gets what
he wants for a fair price and the supplier makes sufficient money to
sustain his business and please his shareholders.

If customers have the attitude that they want the lowest price, come
what may and that any profit on the part of the supplier constitutes
them being ripped off, then the problem lies with the customer. It's
not reasonable to expect a quality product or service *and* for the
supplier not to make a good margin to be there to sustain that.

Customers are trained to 'expect' the lowest prices, in part by
constantly being lambasted with the word 'FREE' in ten foot high
letters. In this way customers are being conned from the outset.


That is not to say that large national businesses
making one time sales don't screw customers - they spend marketing
money on image and the numbers game. The windows industry certainly
has this issue.

It's certainly true that there is far too much government interference
in business, although corporate taxation in the UK is not the highest
in the world by a long way.

If the owners of local and regional businesses make good money out of
them, then good for them as far as I am concerned because they took
the initial risk.

For the large national and multinational companies, the "guvnors" are
ultimately us through our investments directly or indirectly in the
stock market. We would like to maximise the return on our
investments, so there is no point in complaining if we feel that said
companies are making a good profit.

Glad to hear that you own the world you live in and that all is
generally well with it. IMO though, this is a level of self deception
that's necessary to allow you to continue to participate. That's also
why the situation will continue to deteriorate.


Everybody owns the world that they live in to a greater or a lesser
extent.

That's true

Generally the extent depends on their willingness tp
participate and their understanding of the rules of the game.

Not really. The rules of the game are always complicated to a degree
sufficient to place their practical understanding outside the
comprehension of Joe Public. This is a trick used by governments and
businesses alike.
Yes, there are some individuals who by reason of wealth, skill or
location can master the intricacies within certain fields. You may be
one of them. If so you are an uncommon exception.
And if I hadn't got a floor to varnish, I'd go into details right now.

--
Regards,
Mike Halmarack

Drop the EGG to email me.

On Fri, 27 May 2005 09:41:23 +0100, Mike Halmarack
wrote:

On Thu, 26 May 2005 20:00:45 +0100, Andy Hall
wrote:

On Thu, 26 May 2005 13:50:04 +0100, Mike Halmarack
wrote:

On Thu, 26 May 2005 13:34:15 +0100, Andy Hall
wrote:

Ah.. I just don't have a negative perspective about established
businesses.

Of course, or how could you still participate so heartily?

I don't think that people come into their offices every
day with the express intent in mind of how to screw the customer.

They have little time to give it a thought.
It's a condition induced by circumstances beyond their direct control.


Yes and no. It's really the responsibility of senior management to
create a culture of maximising business profitability. In most cases,
for one reason or another, this implies having happy customers,
whether it be for repeat business, recommendation or even just not
having customers who won't pay.


Maybe in the world of business school text books. My experience shows
that currently, if a business offers a quality product at a reasonable
price and with adequate support, this merely goes to prove that their
market isn't being exploited to the max.

My real world experience differs markedly from that. It's possible
to achieve all of those ideals provided that the customer is willing
to buy on issues in addition to price.


Good business practice went down the drain with good banking practice,
at about the same time.


I disagree.

If anything, I would say that there is an improvement in banking
practice in recent years.

- In the bad old days, the bank manager was a falsely exalted
"professional" who held unreasonable power over customers such that
they were made to feel they were beholden to him.

- Nowadays, the banks have at least realised that they are selling
products and services and would like customers to buy them. A total
reversal of roles.

- The clearing banks are being squeezed over the 3-5 day cheque
clearance racket.

etc.


I have a personal bank manager who is pretty good and sorts out
bureaucratic trivia such as the behaviour of the card companies during
overseas travel etc. and is honest enough to tell me if there is a
better product for my needs elsewhere. In return, he gets pieces of
business from me when appropriate. He's consistently in the top 5%
of performers for his bank, but undoubtedly if he ever left and joined
another bank, most of his customers would go with him.




Certainly businesses do have the objective of maximising the amount of
money that they can obtain from a customer and in the shortest time
possible and for the least cost.

Yes.

However, that is simplistic. If
the customer feels that they have been screwed, they won't buy from
that business again. If it's a business that relies on repeat
orders, then having customers feeling screwed for whatever reason is
counterproductive. Businesses that achieve mainly one-time sales are
generally in a competitive market and benefit from customer
recommendation.

If it's not possible to survive without screwing the customer then
the competition will be doing the same. So what's to choose between
them?

Oh, come on, that's jaundiced.

When seen through your rose tinted safety glasses.


I'm pretty successful in what I do in business. A lot of it is based
on long term relationships with customers (going back 20+ years in
some cases) and providing a high standard of product and service.

That can be done for a fair price but not for a knock-down one.



A business transaction should be
beneficial for both parties. That means that the customer gets what
he wants for a fair price and the supplier makes sufficient money to
sustain his business and please his shareholders.

If customers have the attitude that they want the lowest price, come
what may and that any profit on the part of the supplier constitutes
them being ripped off, then the problem lies with the customer. It's
not reasonable to expect a quality product or service *and* for the
supplier not to make a good margin to be there to sustain that.

Customers are trained to 'expect' the lowest prices, in part by
constantly being lambasted with the word 'FREE' in ten foot high
letters. In this way customers are being conned from the outset.

The customer is only conning himself if he believes he can get
something for nothing.

Personally, I avoid organisations that attempt to sell to me on the
basis of price, because it means that they haven't understood my needs
and wants and probably won't be able to sustain the level of service I
require.





Generally the extent depends on their willingness tp
participate and their understanding of the rules of the game.

Not really. The rules of the game are always complicated to a degree
sufficient to place their practical understanding outside the
comprehension of Joe Public. This is a trick used by governments and
businesses alike.

Sadly it seems that with many people they don't have to try too hard.


Yes, there are some individuals who by reason of wealth, skill or
location can master the intricacies within certain fields. You may be
one of them. If so you are an uncommon exception.

I've always thought of myself as an individual.




--

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

The information contained in this post is copyright the
poster, and specifically may not be published in, or used by
http://www.diybanter.com