The Washing Machine FAQ by Ian Tilley (Shrek) has been added at
http://www.diyfaq.org.uk/electrical/...achine_faq.htm.

Thanks very much for the contribution Ian. Can you email me your current
address to editor (at) diyfaq (dot) org (dot) uk, please.

Phil
The uk.d-i-y FAQ is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk/
The Google uk.d-i-y archive is at http://tinyurl.com/65kwq
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Phil Addison wrote:
The Washing Machine FAQ by Ian Tilley (Shrek) has been added at
http://www.diyfaq.org.uk/electrical/...achine_faq.htm.

Thanks very much for the contribution Ian. Can you email me your
current
address to editor (at) diyfaq (dot) org (dot) uk, please.

Phil
The uk.d-i-y FAQ is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk/
The Google uk.d-i-y archive is at http://tinyurl.com/65kwq
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Good stuff. May we work on it? I ask as theres one piece of advice that
doesnt work:

"The first thing to do is to unplug the machine. Do not attempt to move
the appliance, or fault-find while the power is still connected."

This is not followable for a lot of us, as in many cases the only
access to the plumbing and electrics is after the machine has been
pulled out. This is quite common.

Also theres quite limited fault finding one can do with a machine thats
unplugged.


NT

On 23 Apr 2005 04:16:26 -0700, in uk.d-i-y wrote:

Phil Addison wrote:
The Washing Machine FAQ by Ian Tilley (Shrek) has been added at
http://www.diyfaq.org.uk/electrical/...achine_faq.htm.

Thanks very much for the contribution Ian. Can you email me your
current
address to editor (at) diyfaq (dot) org (dot) uk, please.

Phil
The uk.d-i-y FAQ is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk/
The Google uk.d-i-y archive is at http://tinyurl.com/65kwq
Remove NOSPAM from address to email me

Good stuff. May we work on it?

Yes, of course; comments, corrections, updates, additions are always
welcome. Keep 'em coming.

I ask as theres one piece of advice that doesnt work:

"The first thing to do is to unplug the machine. Do not attempt to move
the appliance, or fault-find while the power is still connected."

This is not followable for a lot of us, as in many cases the only
access to the plumbing and electrics is after the machine has been
pulled out. This is quite common.

Also theres quite limited fault finding one can do with a machine thats
unplugged.


NT

Points noted.

Phil
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Thanks very much for the contribution Ian. Can you email me your
current
address to editor (at) diyfaq (dot) org (dot) uk, please.

Phil
The uk.d-i-y FAQ is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk/
The Google uk.d-i-y archive is at http://tinyurl.com/65kwq
Remove NOSPAM from address to email me

Good stuff. May we work on it?

Yes, of course; comments, corrections, updates, additions are always
welcome. Keep 'em coming.

I ask as theres one piece of advice that doesnt work:

"The first thing to do is to unplug the machine. Do not attempt to move
the appliance, or fault-find while the power is still connected."

This is not followable for a lot of us, as in many cases the only
access to the plumbing and electrics is after the machine has been
pulled out. This is quite common.

Also theres quite limited fault finding one can do with a machine thats
unplugged.



Do not attempt to move the appliance, or fault-find while the power is still
connected, unless you are a competent with electrics.
I would consider myself competent with electrics but I still got more than a
few bites. The problem is that there are a lot of exposed live connections
and they are very close to an earth source (the frame) I think this could be
a potential danger and would still recommend leaving this last clause out
altogether.

Perhaps just remove the "move the appliance, or"



Ian (Shrek)

Ian Tilley wrote:
NT wrote:

I ask as theres one piece of advice that doesnt work:

"The first thing to do is to unplug the machine. Do not attempt to
move
the appliance, or fault-find while the power is still connected."

This is not followable for a lot of us, as in many cases the only
access to the plumbing and electrics is after the machine has been
pulled out. This is quite common.

Also theres quite limited fault finding one can do with a machine
thats
unplugged.

few bites. The problem is that there are a lot of exposed live
connections
and they are very close to an earth source (the frame) I think this
could be
a potential danger


I guess its like a car: if you want to get anywhere you have to take it
out on the road. One can get little fault finding done without plugging
it in. I guess working on live wiring is something diyers should only
do if theyre upto it, and some dont appreciate the risks or arent
careful enough.


NT

On 24 Apr 2005 11:37:36 -0700, in uk.d-i-y wrote:

Ian Tilley wrote:
NT wrote:

I ask as theres one piece of advice that doesnt work:

"The first thing to do is to unplug the machine. Do not attempt to
move
the appliance, or fault-find while the power is still connected."

This is not followable for a lot of us, as in many cases the only
access to the plumbing and electrics is after the machine has been
pulled out. This is quite common.

Also theres quite limited fault finding one can do with a machine
thats
unplugged.

few bites. The problem is that there are a lot of exposed live
connections
and they are very close to an earth source (the frame) I think this
could be
a potential danger


I guess its like a car: if you want to get anywhere you have to take it
out on the road. One can get little fault finding done without plugging
it in. I guess working on live wiring is something diyers should only
do if theyre upto it, and some dont appreciate the risks or arent
careful enough.

Agreed about the last sentence, which is why I am reluctant to suggest
on a public website that they should try it. Those that are competent
don't need the FAQ's permission to do so, and I think will do it anyway,
whatever the FAQ says.

However, with a half-decent meter you can do continuity checking with
the machine unplugged (as it should be for that), so you can test the
plug-top fuse, switch functions, pressure switches (with a bit of
puffing), the element continuity and earth leakage, the door switch and
it's heater, solenoids, thermostats cold side (and hot if you take them
off and heat them up), pump continuity, harness and corroded spades.

That's most things except the timer integrity, circuit board and main
motor isn't it? I would want to do most of these unpowered tests anyway,
before trying the mains directly on any remaining items, like the timer
motor to see if it is really ticking.

I have put up an update of Ian's FAQ to cover the other point of
inaccessibility to an unswitched rear socket outlet. See
http://www.diyfaq.org.uk/electrical/...achine_faq.htm

You might need to do a control-click on your browser refresh button to
bring it into your cache.

Further comments/suggestions welcome.

Phil
The uk.d-i-y FAQ is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk/
The Google uk.d-i-y archive is at http://tinyurl.com/65kwq
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Phil Addison wrote:
On 24 Apr 2005 11:37:36 -0700, in uk.d-i-y wrote:

it in. I guess working on live wiring is something diyers should
only
do if theyre upto it, and some dont appreciate the risks or arent
careful enough.

Agreed about the last sentence, which is why I am reluctant to
suggest
on a public website that they should try it. Those that are competent
don't need the FAQ's permission to do so, and I think will do it
anyway,
whatever the FAQ says.

good point.


However, with a half-decent meter you can do continuity checking with
the machine unplugged (as it should be for that), so you can test the
plug-top fuse, switch functions, pressure switches (with a bit of
puffing), the element continuity and earth leakage, the door switch
and
it's heater, solenoids, thermostats cold side (and hot if you take
them
off and heat them up), pump continuity, harness and corroded spades.

That's most things except the timer integrity, circuit board and main
motor isn't it? I would want to do most of these unpowered tests
anyway,
before trying the mains directly on any remaining items, like the
timer
motor to see if it is really ticking.

there are way quicker ways


I have put up an update of Ian's FAQ to cover the other point of
inaccessibility to an unswitched rear socket outlet. See
http://www.diyfaq.org.uk/electrical/...achine_faq.htm

You might need to do a control-click on your browser refresh button
to
bring it into your cache.

naa, use a proper browser.


Quite often the machine will be plugged into a socket which is
inaccessible until the machine is pulled forward (see how it should be
done below). In this case turn off at the consumer unit first. Do not
attempt to move the appliance, or fault-find while the power is still
connected.

I hope youre kidding.


NT

On 25 Apr 2005 06:47:38 -0700, in uk.d-i-y wrote:

Phil Addison wrote:
However, with a half-decent meter you can do continuity checking with
the machine unplugged (as it should be for that), so you can test the
plug-top fuse, switch functions, pressure switches (with a bit of
puffing), the element continuity and earth leakage, the door switch
and
it's heater, solenoids, thermostats cold side (and hot if you take
them
off and heat them up), pump continuity, harness and corroded spades.

That's most things except the timer integrity, circuit board and main
motor isn't it? I would want to do most of these unpowered tests
anyway,
before trying the mains directly on any remaining items, like the
timer
motor to see if it is really ticking.

there are way quicker ways

Secret ways, are they?

I have put up an update of Ian's FAQ to cover the other point of
inaccessibility to an unswitched rear socket outlet. See
http://www.diyfaq.org.uk/electrical/...achine_faq.htm

You might need to do a control-click on your browser refresh button
to
bring it into your cache.

naa, use a proper browser.

Depends how you have your options set. Take a look at InternetOptions=
Settings= Check for newer versions of stored page...

Quite often the machine will be plugged into a socket which is
inaccessible until the machine is pulled forward (see how it should be
done below). In this case turn off at the consumer unit first. Do not
attempt to move the appliance, or fault-find while the power is still
connected.

I hope youre kidding.

No. In the event of a fault, as yet undiagnosed, it is possible for the
case to be live, or become so as it is moved. Yes, this is a double
fault where the case is not earthed either.

What is your point?

Phil
The uk.d-i-y FAQ is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk/
The Google uk.d-i-y archive is at http://tinyurl.com/65kwq
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Phil Addison wrote:
On 25 Apr 2005 06:47:38 -0700, in uk.d-i-y wrote:

You might need to do a control-click on your browser refresh
button
to bring it into your cache.

naa, use a proper browser.

Depends how you have your options set. Take a look at
InternetOptions=
Settings= Check for newer versions of stored page...

I dont use IE, so dont need to use cumbersome key combinations to
access simple routine commands. If youre using IE, I can recommend
Opera, its about 10 years ahead of IE.


Quite often the machine will be plugged into a socket which is
inaccessible until the machine is pulled forward (see how it
should be
done below). In this case turn off at the consumer unit first. Do
not
attempt to move the appliance, or fault-find while the power is
still
connected.

I hope youre kidding.

No. In the event of a fault, as yet undiagnosed, it is possible for
the
case to be live, or become so as it is moved. Yes, this is a double
fault where the case is not earthed either.

What is your point?

just that its unrealistic advice. If you want to get into it,
1. Consider the number of deaths per year per nation from electrocution
by appliances.
2. Consider what percentage of those are caused by 2 simultaneous
faults.
3. Consider the odds of such a fault existing simply because your
machine isnt running. This doesnt give a reason to suspect such a combi
of faults.

If it stays in, I suspect it will result in people stopping reading and
looking elsewhere.

Its not my faq tho. And its about time I stood myself up for all to
criticise ridicule and abuse by writing one!


NT

No. In the event of a fault, as yet undiagnosed, it is possible for
the
case to be live, or become so as it is moved. Yes, this is a double
fault where the case is not earthed either.

What is your point?

just that its unrealistic advice. If you want to get into it,
1. Consider the number of deaths per year per nation from electrocution
by appliances.
2. Consider what percentage of those are caused by 2 simultaneous
faults.
3. Consider the odds of such a fault existing simply because your
machine isnt running. This doesnt give a reason to suspect such a combi
of faults.

If it stays in, I suspect it will result in people stopping reading and
looking elsewhere.

Its not my faq tho. And its about time I stood myself up for all to
criticise ridicule and abuse by writing one!


NT

I have come across numerous machines where the case has been live, this is
because of the violent action inside the machine has caused a wire or
component to become loose and touch the chasis. My dad actually went to one
where they would only use the machine when they were wearing rubber gloves
because of the shocks it would give them everytime they used it. He went to
fix a blocked pump, they were quite happy to carry one using the gloves as
long as he could get it going. Needless to say he sorted both faults in the
same visit.


If people stop reading this FAQ and find one that has information or
guidance that they might like, then I suggest that they already know what
they are looking for. Safety should be the first priority.

Ian (Shrek)

On 25 Apr 2005 16:09:44 -0700, in uk.d-i-y wrote:

Phil Addison wrote:
On 25 Apr 2005 06:47:38 -0700, in uk.d-i-y wrote:

Depends how you have your options set. Take a look at
InternetOptions=
Settings= Check for newer versions of stored page...

I dont use IE, so dont need to use cumbersome key combinations to
access simple routine commands. If youre using IE, I can recommend
Opera, its about 10 years ahead of IE.

Think you're a bit out of date there. Mozilla Firefox is the one these
days. Try it, its pretty good. Notwithstanding that, IE is still the
most common browser, hence my advice which is meant for the readership
at large not just for clever clogs.

Apart from which, what I said is that you *might* have to a do a
control-click on the refresh button. Can't be much simpler. The long
string above is only to view or set what cache options are set - or
doesn't opera offer that choice?

I hope youre kidding.

No. In the event of a fault, as yet undiagnosed, it is possible for
the
case to be live, or become so as it is moved. Yes, this is a double
fault where the case is not earthed either.

What is your point?

just that its unrealistic advice. If you want to get into it,

and the realistic advice is....?

1. Consider the number of deaths per year per nation from electrocution
by appliances.
2. Consider what percentage of those are caused by 2 simultaneous
faults.
3. Consider the odds of such a fault existing simply because your
machine isnt running. This doesnt give a reason to suspect such a combi
of faults.

If it stays in, I suspect it will result in people stopping reading and
looking elsewhere.

Its not my faq tho.

Well, it's not mine either, I'm just the editor trying to help the
author make the doc as useful as possible. If you have a contribution
it's best made in a positive way by suggesting what it should say, not
just carping on about your superior knowledge. So yes, get writing, put
up an alternative form of words and lets see if it stands up to
scrutiny.

So far I think the authors words are fine. It's no big deal to turn off
the mains switch for 5 minutes is it?

And its about time I stood myself up for all to
criticise ridicule and abuse by writing one!

Ahh... all is forgiven. Which one do you fancy?

Phil
The uk.d-i-y FAQ is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk/
The Google uk.d-i-y archive is at http://tinyurl.com/65kwq
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Phil Addison wrote:
On 25 Apr 2005 16:09:44 -0700, in uk.d-i-y wrote:

Depends how you have your options set. Take a look at
InternetOptions=
Settings= Check for newer versions of stored page...

I dont use IE, so dont need to use cumbersome key combinations to
access simple routine commands. If youre using IE, I can recommend
Opera, its about 10 years ahead of IE.

Think you're a bit out of date there. Mozilla Firefox is the one
these
days. Try it, its pretty good.

It is, but Opera does everthing that does and more, and has done for
years, and the nav controls are significantly better. So I still prefer
Opera. (Its odd how many people think Firefox was the first with tabbed
browsing!)


Notwithstanding that, IE is still the
most common browser, hence my advice which is meant for the
readership
at large not just for clever clogs.

Apart from which, what I said is that you *might* have to a do a
control-click on the refresh button. Can't be much simpler.

Yes, youre right there

The long
string above is only to view or set what cache options are set - or
doesn't opera offer that choice?

a) different route to get to the settings
b) one key to refresh a page, F5


I hope youre kidding.

No. In the event of a fault, as yet undiagnosed, it is possible
for
the
case to be live, or become so as it is moved. Yes, this is a
double
fault where the case is not earthed either.

What is your point?

just that its unrealistic advice. If you want to get into it,

and the realistic advice is....?

I guess just removing the admonition to turn the CU off. Maybe say
'unplug the machine if possible first.'


1. Consider the number of deaths per year per nation from
electrocution
by appliances.
2. Consider what percentage of those are caused by 2 simultaneous
faults.
3. Consider the odds of such a fault existing simply because your
machine isnt running. This doesnt give a reason to suspect such a
combi
of faults.

If it stays in, I suspect it will result in people stopping reading
and
looking elsewhere.

Its not my faq tho.

Well, it's not mine either, I'm just the editor trying to help the
author make the doc as useful as possible. If you have a contribution
it's best made in a positive way by suggesting what it should say,
not
just carping on about your superior knowledge.

yes, point taken

So yes, get writing, put
up an alternative form of words and lets see if it stands up to
scrutiny.

So far I think the authors words are fine. It's no big deal to turn
off
the mains switch for 5 minutes is it?

I cant imagine many following it. And I think you may find the risk
introduced by powering off to be greater than the risk of pulling a
machine out while plugged in. Consider the number of injuries and
deaths from stair falls per year, compared to electrocutions. I really
think its mistaken advice.



And its about time I stood myself up for all to
criticise ridicule and abuse by writing one!

Ahh... all is forgiven. Which one do you fancy?

Yep, you'll get your chance I started writing something and might
post it here to form a possible FAQ, but I'm unclear whether it really
comes under diy or not. I think it just about does, if only just - will
post later and see.

Once considered doing a period electrics faq, but that might be more a
raq!

A lighting FAQ might be a likely candidate... or a part p faq?? But
really I'm too busy to try those atm.

Is there by any chance some form of list anywhere of FAQs people would
like to see? There must also be some FAQs elsewhere online, some good
enough to save us reinventing the wheel.


NT

On 25 Apr 2005 18:45:17 -0700, in uk.d-i-y wrote:

Phil Addison wrote:
On 25 Apr 2005 16:09:44 -0700, in uk.d-i-y wrote:

just that its unrealistic advice. If you want to get into it,

and the realistic advice is....?

I guess just removing the admonition to turn the CU off. Maybe say
'unplug the machine if possible first.'

So far I think the authors words are fine. It's no big deal to turn
off the mains switch for 5 minutes is it?

I cant imagine many following it. And I think you may find the risk
introduced by powering off to be greater than the risk of pulling a
machine out while plugged in. Consider the number of injuries and
deaths from stair falls per year, compared to electrocutions. I really
think its mistaken advice.

OK, I can see what you're getting at now. But consider this: A guy comes
home from work to find wifey in tears saying she was doing the washing
when water started pouring out from under the washer, then it smelt like
something was burning, and then there was a bang and the machine
stopped. Miraculously she knew where the stop-tap was and stopped the
flood. This machine is 15+ years old by the way.

The guy is pretty clueless but luckily knows a friend of a friend who
happens to know NT, and suggests ringing NT to ask if its ok to drag the
machine out to look for the leak (non of them realise the significance
of the other symptoms). I wonder what the answer would be.

Back to the FAQ in hand, perhaps we should extend the advise to assist
safe turning off of the CU, e.g. get a torch, warn people not to move
around in the dark, wait till it's daylight if possible, only turn off
the relevant mcb, run a portable light from a different circuit, don't
short neutral to earth even when power is off.... This could be a FAQ
in its own right!!

And its about time I stood myself up for all to
criticise ridicule and abuse by writing one!

Ahh... all is forgiven. Which one do you fancy?

Yep, you'll get your chance I started writing something and might
post it here to form a possible FAQ, but I'm unclear whether it really
comes under diy or not. I think it just about does, if only just - will
post later and see.

Great stuff.

Once considered doing a period electrics faq, but that might be more a
raq!

raq??

A lighting FAQ might be a likely candidate... or a part p faq?? But
really I'm too busy to try those atm.

Part Pee has to be one.

Is there by any chance some form of list anywhere of FAQs people would
like to see?

There is a list of the ones I think people might want here
http://www.diyfaq.org.uk/FAQ_Prospec...tents_List.doc, and I am
looking for comments on it (not to mention content!). An interesting
project for someone with scripting skills could be to analyse past
uk.d-i-y topics to compile a list of the most frequently occurring
keywords (fok?).

There must also be some FAQs elsewhere online, some good
enough to save us reinventing the wheel.

Google? There are a few in our FAQ at the bottom of the contents page
http://www.diyfaq.org.uk/contents.html. I'm open to specific suggestions
for additions.

Phil
The uk.d-i-y FAQ is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk/
The Google uk.d-i-y archive is at http://tinyurl.com/65kwq
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Phil Addison wrote:
On 26 Apr 2005 09:13:12 -0700, in uk.d-i-y wrote:

Well, so far it's 2 vs 1, so in the absence of others coming forward
to
convince me to totally ignore the safety issue, I propose a
re-wording
along these lines ...

"The first thing to do is to unplug the machine. Whilst the machine
has
an unknown fault there is a possibility that the case may have become
live, though proper earthing should protect against this. Quite often
the machine will be plugged into a socket which is inaccessible until
the machine is pulled forward (see below for a better way to install
it). In this case switch off the power at the consumer unit or mains
switch before pulling the machine forward to unplug it. Obviously
this
will cut-off power to other circuits or lights so it's best done in
daylight. Take care that any other occupants are warned first of
course,
especially if the lights are going to go out.

Do not attempt to move the appliance, or fault-find while the power
is
still connected."

ok, I'll agree to differ.


Part Pee has to be one.
...
Perhaps a good way to address it would be to just compile a list of
links to already written part p threads. It saves a lot of time,
and
avoids getting further into controversy.

Thought of that but they are all far too long. We need a summary.

True. But we dont have one. Until we put one together, a quickie would
provide readers with:
a) all the information
b) enough information quickly enough to realise there was something
seriously amiss with part pee.

Bear in mind no-one has offered to put one together, and I suspect it
will not be the easiest of FAQs by any means.


NT

In message .com,
writes

Part Pee has to be one.
...
Perhaps a good way to address it would be to just compile a list of
links to already written part p threads. It saves a lot of time,
and
avoids getting further into controversy.

Thought of that but they are all far too long. We need a summary.

True. But we dont have one. Until we put one together, a quickie would
provide readers with:
a) all the information
b) enough information quickly enough to realise there was something
seriously amiss with part pee.

Bear in mind no-one has offered to put one together, and I suspect it
will not be the easiest of FAQs by any means.

Have you just volunteered then ?

--
geoff

raden wrote:
In message .com,
writes

Part Pee has to be one.
...
Perhaps a good way to address it would be to just compile a list
of
links to already written part p threads. It saves a lot of time,
and
avoids getting further into controversy.

Thought of that but they are all far too long. We need a summary.

True. But we dont have one. Until we put one together, a quickie
would
provide readers with:
a) all the information
b) enough information quickly enough to realise there was something
seriously amiss with part pee.

Bear in mind no-one has offered to put one together, and I suspect
it
will not be the easiest of FAQs by any means.

Have you just volunteered then ?


no :/ Too much time.

NT

On 26 Apr 2005 17:07:52 -0700, in uk.d-i-y wrote:

Phil Addison wrote:
On 26 Apr 2005 09:13:12 -0700, in uk.d-i-y wrote:

Part Pee has to be one.
...
Perhaps a good way to address it would be to just compile a list of
links to already written part p threads. It saves a lot of time,
and
avoids getting further into controversy.

Thought of that but they are all far too long. We need a summary.

True. But we dont have one. Until we put one together, a quickie would
provide readers with:
a) all the information
b) enough information quickly enough to realise there was something
seriously amiss with part pee.

Bear in mind no-one has offered to put one together, and I suspect it
will not be the easiest of FAQs by any means.

If someone offers a few suitable google Part Pee hits I'll happily put
them in.

Phil
The uk.d-i-y FAQ is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk/
The Google uk.d-i-y archive is at http://tinyurl.com/65kwq
Remove NOSPAM from address to email me

In article ,
Phil Addison writes:

If someone offers a few suitable google Part Pee hits I'll happily put
them in.

Can't help thinking that's a particularly thorny area to tread
at the moment. There's lot's of conflicting advice coming from
different authoritative bodies. Other than saying it's a mess and
there isn't a good concensus on what's permitted and what isn't
without a building notice, I would not try to say anything yet.

I have only heard of one building notice mentioning electrical
changes since it came into effect (moving a bathroom), and the
BCO completely ignored all the electrical work on it, and was
mainly interested in changes to the drains when inspecting.
I know of another one going on now too, and I'll try and find
out if the inspections/approval has taken any interest in the
electrical work.

It may have settled down by the end of the year.

--
Andrew Gabriel

Andrew Gabriel wrote:
Phil Addison writes:
If someone offers a few suitable google Part Pee hits I'll happily put
them in.
Can't help thinking that's a particularly thorny area to tread
at the moment. There's lot's of conflicting advice coming from
different authoritative bodies. Other than saying it's a mess and
there isn't a good concensus on what's permitted and what isn't
without a building notice, I would not try to say anything yet.

The recent edition of Wiring Matters seemed more sensible and less
alarmist than most, and gave some useful practical examples of what is
and isn't covered.

I don't know if they're PDF'd on the IEE site

Owain