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| Metalworking (rec.crafts.metalworking) Discuss various aspects of working with metal, such as machining, welding, metal joining, screwing, casting, hardening/tempering, blacksmithing/forging, spinning and hammer work, sheet metal work. |
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FAQ and Posting "for sale" posts in rcm.......
A couple of months ago I posted here about some power hacksaw blades I had.
A few people bought some off me from here and I actually gained enough cash to go out and get some silca gel vitrified grinding cups made to my dimensions ( I had to order 50 of them before they would make one) Now I've opened an eBay account but since I'm in Canada and most of the buyers will be in the states I've had to increase the asking price for my hacksaw blades cause of the fees and currency conversion and paypal etc. it's a better deal if i offer it here. I'm not in it for a profit. I'm in it to get some new equipment so that i don't have to use my credit card..... Ebay will eat 20% of what I sell in fees. Needless to say I have some other stuff around my shop I would like to sell and use the proceeds to buy a new drill press and a high quality cordless tool set. Since response was good here I wanted to offer some more stuff here before using eBay. Since it's goods that are used in metalworking would it be considered spam if I posted asking if anyone was interested in buying a couple of items from me? I'm not talking about bombarding the group. I'm talking about 2 items in 2 posts asking if anyone was interested in my leftover goods....... Seeking your advice and interpretation.....  HeadHunter |
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"HeadHunter" wrote in message .. . A couple of months ago I posted here about some power hacksaw blades I had. A few people bought some off me from here and I actually gained enough cash to go out and get some silca gel vitrified grinding cups made to my dimensions ( I had to order 50 of them before they would make one) Now I've opened an eBay account but since I'm in Canada and most of the buyers will be in the states I've had to increase the asking price for my hacksaw blades cause of the fees and currency conversion and paypal etc. it's a better deal if i offer it here. I'm not in it for a profit. I'm in it to get some new equipment so that i don't have to use my credit card..... Ebay will eat 20% of what I sell in fees. Needless to say I have some other stuff around my shop I would like to sell and use the proceeds to buy a new drill press and a high quality cordless tool set. Since response was good here I wanted to offer some more stuff here before using eBay. Since it's goods that are used in metalworking would it be considered spam if I posted asking if anyone was interested in buying a couple of items from me? I'm not talking about bombarding the group. I'm talking about 2 items in 2 posts asking if anyone was interested in my leftover goods....... Seeking your advice and interpretation..... HeadHunter I can only speak for myself, but if you're offering goods that would benefit the readers, at a price that is a bargain, I can't imagine anyone getting their nose too far out of joint. That would be especially true if you're offering things that are difficult to obtain. At this point, it looks to me like RCM is sort of a "no holds barred" kind of thing. Could it be? I guess what really matters is the policy of the service provider. Maybe someone can step forward and inform all of us what is, and isn't, acceptable. Harold |
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In article ,
Harold and Susan Vordos wrote: "HeadHunter" wrote in message . .. A couple of months ago I posted here about some power hacksaw blades I had. A few people bought some off me from here and I actually gained enough cash to go out and get some silca gel vitrified grinding cups made to my dimensions ( I had to order 50 of them before they would make one) [ ... ] Since it's goods that are used in metalworking would it be considered spam if I posted asking if anyone was interested in buying a couple of items from me? I'm not talking about bombarding the group. I'm talking about 2 items in 2 posts asking if anyone was interested in my leftover goods....... Seeking your advice and interpretation..... In general, if the postings are not too frequent, (excessive would be once every two weeks for the same item each time), and if they are short, I see no problem. [ ... ] At this point, it looks to me like RCM is sort of a "no holds barred" kind of thing. Could it be? I guess what really matters is the policy of the service provider. Maybe someone can step forward and inform all of us what is, and isn't, acceptable. *Which* service provider? Usenet is hosted on hundreds or thousands of systems around the world. There is no *one* service provider to say yea or nea. What your *own* ISP can do, is threaten to cancel your account if you break the rules in the AUP (Acceptable Use Policy), which you (implicitly) signed by opening an account on the server. Unless you are spewing out tons of spam, such that it is *detected* by your ISP, nothing is likely to happen unless someone complains -- usually *several* someones -- with good evidence. If you are getting your news service through yet another company (e.g. some are signed up with newsguy and similar services), then they are also in a position to revoke your access if you abuse it. Again, normally, you have to do something which either seriously impacts their bandwidth (posting hundreds or thousands of identical spam to many newsgroups), or which provokes complaints from those outside. For that matter -- you *can* lose your account by posting binary files to a discussion newsgroup -- but you probably won't for a one-time offense. Posting copyrighted stuff is more likely to get their attention. But even so -- if you *do* get kicked off -- there is always *someone* who will sell you an account. One such suplier of last resort is "alt.net", which I block, because almost everyone on it is someone who has been kicked off of several services previously. "Cass" was an example, and he is why I put "alt.net" in my "refuse" list. I don't know *why* ignoramus(some number) has since picked up an account there, but as a result, I don't see his postings -- only what others quote. If an ISP has enough offenders, and does not do anything about complaints, the ISP suffers a UDP (Usenet Death Policy), in which *all* major news servers refuse to pass on articles from that site. (Similar to what I am doing on a private basis with alt.net, except that I don't feed to other systems, while the major news servers are responsible for carrying articles from and to *many* other servers.) Anyway -- I don't see a problem with what you propose to post. If it starts getting extreme, I (and others) will first complain to you, and I would expect you to stop, based on your posting. What *I* object to is people posting about openings in "craft fairs", and offering to sell our crafts. I'm sure that those are posting to every newsgroup in the rec.crafts.* heirarchy, without bothering to determine what each is really about. :-) Enjoy, DoN. -- Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564 (too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html --- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero --- |
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"DoN. Nichols" wrote in message ... In article , Harold and Susan Vordos wrote: "HeadHunter" wrote in message . .. A couple of months ago I posted here about some power hacksaw blades I had. A few people bought some off me from here and I actually gained enough cash to go out and get some silca gel vitrified grinding cups made to my dimensions ( I had to order 50 of them before they would make one) [ ... ] Since it's goods that are used in metalworking would it be considered spam if I posted asking if anyone was interested in buying a couple of items from me? I'm not talking about bombarding the group. I'm talking about 2 items in 2 posts asking if anyone was interested in my leftover goods....... Seeking your advice and interpretation..... In general, if the postings are not too frequent, (excessive would be once every two weeks for the same item each time), and if they are short, I see no problem. [ ... ] At this point, it looks to me like RCM is sort of a "no holds barred" kind of thing. Could it be? I guess what really matters is the policy of the service provider. Maybe someone can step forward and inform all of us what is, and isn't, acceptable. *Which* service provider? Usenet is hosted on hundreds or thousands of systems around the world. There is no *one* service provider to say yea or nea. Thanks, DoN. Still, I have one question that troubles me. Is anyone in charge of RCM? Why does it exist? When one posts, or reads posts that come from RCM, is there any one place where it is all on a hard drive (besides Google)? I trust by now you understand I'm totally confused as to how the entire thing works. Someone, somewhere, one fine day must have decided there should be an entity known as RCM------how did it come into being? Does anyone have the authority to restrict anyone from posting? Can I assume it's nothing more than an address where everyone meets, but there isn't any such place? I might liken it to a directory (on many, if not all servers), under which anyone has access and adds their comments. Something like that? Harold |
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On 18 Mar 2005 01:16:50 -0500, (DoN. Nichols)
wrote: For that matter -- you *can* lose your account by posting binary files to a discussion newsgroup -- but you probably won't for a one-time offense. Posting copyrighted stuff is more likely to get their attention. Another offense that most are not aware of is posting ebay auctions on usenet ng's. It's against ebay's TOS to do so and they can/will take measures against members who do so. That can range from a warning to losing ones membership entirely: http://pages.ebay.com/help/usenet_policy.html Quoted from above: "UseNet Policy eBay users may not post on Usenet groups (Internet newsgroups) to advertise eBay or an eBay listing that is inappropriate or violates the Usenet board policy. If Usenet abuse is reported to eBay, we may among other remedies) remove the listing, issue a warning, temporarily suspend or indefinitely suspend the offender's eBay account." Granted, there would have to be a number of formal complaints about the offending poster before any action would be taken, but that's relatively easy to do. All it takes is a few ****ed off ng patrons to get that ball rolling. Where this gets iffy is if the specific ng doesn't have a no ebay ads clause in their charter, but many don't as they were formed long before ebay was conceived. That said, I've seen numerous cases where people spamming ng's with ebay auctions had both their ebay memberships pulled as well as their ISP accounts, in ng's that do bot have that specific clause. Ebay tends to err on the side of usenet. Bottom line is if one thinks he's angered a few folks in any ng, or is posting ebay ads in ng's they aren't familiar with, they're flirting with a potential problem... especially if they've got a well seasoned account with 100% feedback. As far as posting FA or FS notices, what I've seen repeated in the ng's I frequent is it's generally acceptable if done occasionally by regular participants of that ng. It's when someone who's never contributed to a ng, and is clearly just tryin' to make a quick buck, that the **** hits th' proverbial fan. Rightfully so IMHO. |
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On Fri, 18 Mar 2005 00:32:59 -0800, "Harold and Susan Vordos"
wrote: Still, I have one question that troubles me. Is anyone in charge of RCM? It appears not, it's not a moderated ng. Why does it exist? I'd assume to do exactly what it's doing, bringing metalworking aficionados together for discussion on said same topic. The exact language would be in the original charter. A good question would be; are there any original charter members still active here? That info might be derived by checking the final CFV (Call For Votes) where rcm was granted it's name and then seeing if any voters names are familiar. When one posts, or reads posts that come from RCM, is there any one place where it is all on a hard drive (besides Google)? Nope. Heh, unless there's a super anal original charter member who's saved every single one of them. I trust by now you understand I'm totally confused as to how the entire thing works. If you get bored, there are quite a few ng's just for this proccess. You'll see them near (above and below) the news.announce.newgroups. (n.a.n) Note that's not newSgroups, it's newgroups. You get there the same way you subbed here. All of the answers to your questions are located therein. Look for any posts in n.a.n that start with RFD (Request For Discussion) that's sort of where it all starts. Someone, somewhere, one fine day must have decided there should be an entity known as RCM------how did it come into being? It takes much more than a someone. There has to be a proven need for a new ng, i.e, sufficient amount of interested people to validate granting one in whichever hierarchy, alt, rec, etc... It can get real nasty if a number of folks from say rcm decide they want to form a subgroup and call it rec.crafts.metalworking.noofftopicbs. When it's time for the CFV (Call For Votes) and enough induhviduals vote no, rcmn could be denied. For example, this happened in the rec.motorcycles.harley split from rec.motorcycles. It turned out to be an all out war; rmh won. Does anyone have the authority to restrict anyone from posting? Only in moderated ng's. In non-moderated ng's ones only recourse is the almighty kill file, bit bucket (whatever you want to call it), or given that tool isn't available, ignore them. One can complain to the ISP's of particularly offensive induhviduals with the hope of them losing access via that ISP, but they'll usually just get another one. Can I assume it's nothing more than an address where everyone meets, but there isn't any such place? I might liken it to a directory (on many, if not all servers), under which anyone has access and adds their comments. Something like that? Sure, using your analogy, but that dictionary changes every second. Some peoples versions retain entries longer than others is all. That said, every single copy of the *dictionary* has the exact same name. Usenet has been here much longer than the "web". It's the great Grandpappy of Al Gore. |
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On Fri, 18 Mar 2005 00:32:59 -0800, "Harold and Susan Vordos"
wrote: Thanks, DoN. Still, I have one question that troubles me. Is anyone in charge of RCM? Why does it exist? When one posts, or reads posts that come from RCM, is there any one place where it is all on a hard drive (besides Google)? I trust by now you understand I'm totally confused as to how the entire thing works. Someone, somewhere, one fine day must have decided there should be an entity known as RCM------how did it come into being? Does anyone have the authority to restrict anyone from posting? Can I assume it's nothing more than an address where everyone meets, but there isn't any such place? I might liken it to a directory (on many, if not all servers), under which anyone has access and adds their comments. Something like that? Harold If you go to: http://w3.uwyo.edu/~metal/faqa.html and download some of the early ('92) archives you will find that the group started as IIRC a "test" group and developed from there into one of the best. Gerry :-)} London, Canada |
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In article ,
Harold and Susan Vordos wrote: "DoN. Nichols" wrote in message ... [ ... ] *Which* service provider? Usenet is hosted on hundreds or thousands of systems around the world. There is no *one* service provider to say yea or nea. Thanks, DoN. Still, I have one question that troubles me. Is anyone in charge of RCM? No! Since it is in one of the "big eight" heirarchies (rec, news, comp, sci, talk, soc, humanities and misc), there is a specified way to go about getting a newsgroup created. In others, there are other ways, but the big eight (which are officially all of usenet -- the rest (like alt) sort of ride along). Why does it exist? Because some people cared enough to go through the hoops needed to form the newsgroup. It starts with posting a RFD (Request For Discussion) in news.groups. Then there is a discussion period, in which people thrash out what the charter should be, and other details, such as "should this newsgroup be moderated?" -- defending them against people who say "Who needs yet another newsgroup, what you want to talk about can be covered in x.y.x?". (As it turns out, rec.crafts.metalworking was one of the early newsgroups which tried the "trial" newsgroup heirarchy first. That allows people to test it, with a restricted distribution.) Once the RFD period is over, there is then posted a CFV (Call For Votes), in which everybody in the discussion period, and anyone else who cares, is free to submit a vote. There is a regular number of people who vote against *any* new newsgroup. There must be a minimum of 100 votes, and the "yeas" must be a 2/3s majority. (If there are fewer than 100 votes, it is presumed that there is not sufficient interest.) The submission of the CFV is done by a set of regulars who help guide the proponents of the newsgroup through the process. I think that even the RFD call needs a "mentor" these days as well. When one posts, or reads posts that come from RCM, is there any one place where it is all on a hard drive (besides Google)? How about "not even Google"? Google honors the "X-No-Archive: " header, so the articles will not even stick around there. Each article starts its life by being posted to some news server. I run my own, so I can tailor things like the expire time for newsgroups which I particularly care about. Once it is posted, it is placed in the local server's news spool directory. The server also queues copies to be passed to one or more "upstream" sites. These also store copies in their news spools, and pass them on to many other sites. They branch out around the world, and come back together via various paths, so any news site may receive multiple copies of a given article. This is one of the uses of the "Message-ID: " header. A database of recently received articles is stored by "Message-ID: ", and if the server has already a record of having received the article, the new copy is discarded. Since many of the connections between servers are one-way, this explains why the answer sometimes comes in before the question. The answer can come more directly than the question. Each server gets to specify its own expire time on a per newsgroup basis. The retention time of the entries it the database of "Message-ID: "s is also a local choice, so it is possible that the record of receipt may be cleared before a later copy arrives, so you can see it twice. Each server also gets to specify which newsgroups it will carry. I carry some of the rec.crafts newsgroups, some of the "news.admin" newsgroups, some of the "comp.sys.*" newsgroups, and some of the comp.unix.* newsgroups. I carry almost no "alt.*" newsgroups, with the exception of alt.folklore.computers and alt.machines.cnc. And each server gets to specify which newsgroups it is willing to feed to other servers, so a local newsgroup heirarchy can exist. I have one. Most ISPs with news servers have one. And these are seldom fed outside of the local server. At one time, when Fidonet was being gatewayed to usenet, some of the gateways were re-writing the "Message-ID: " and the "From: " headers as well, so second (and sometimes third and fourth) copies of your articles would appear -- except that instead of (in my case ", I would appear as ". Really -- the "control" of usenet is a cooperative anarchy. Nobody can enforce rules on another server -- though a majority can vote to "shun" with a UDP (Usenet Death Policy) if the provocation is great enough. I trust by now you understand I'm totally confused as to how the entire thing works. Justifiably so. It is complex, and sort of "just grew". All the information is out there, but you have to dig to find it. Someone, somewhere, one fine day must have decided there should be an entity known as RCM------how did it come into being? The RFD and CFV process described at the beginning of this message. Does anyone have the authority to restrict anyone from posting? Any news server can restrict who can post using *that* news server. Mine is set up so nobody from outside can post. I do have provisions so a friend can post, by connecting to my system, and passing the article via a rather uncommon protocol once logged in. Can I assume it's nothing more than an address where everyone meets, but there isn't any such place? Sort of -- there is no such place, but it is everywhere. :-) (Or at least, everywhere that there are news servers who carry this particular newsgroup. You don't need to know a central address (such as a web site has), but rather you need to access one (or more) of the many news servers around the world. I might liken it to a directory (on many, if not all servers), under which anyone has access and adds their comments. Something like that? Sort of. Each newsgroup is actually a subdirectory on each server (with the path varying with the version of the news server software). An example is the path on my server of rec.crafts.metalworking. /usr/local-5/news/spool/articles/rec/crafts/metalworking another newsgroup on my server is: /usr/local-5/news/spool/articles/rec/music/makers/squeezebox Note that the first part is the same on all: /usr/local-5/news/spool/articles/ and the rest is the newsgroup name with the '.'s replaced by '/' (the unix subdirectory separator, which Microsoft sort of copied, using '\', because they already had '/' tied up as the option switch flag. As for how usenet got started -- it started with a mailing list, back when the total number of interconnected systems made that practical. Then it grew to a heirarchy, with the first word being "net" (e.g. net.talk, net.comp, net.soc). Things grew and grew, and there have been many versions of the software through the years. When I first started my server, "b-news" was being replaced with "c-news", which I used. I later upgraded to various others, ending with a version of "inn" (InterNetNews). I hope that this is some help. BTW I just got the cut style knurler today -- and haven't yet had a chance to get to the shop and try it out. It is a cute little one which I should even be able to use on my little Compact-5/CNC without any problems. Enjoy, DoN. -- Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564 (too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html --- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero --- |
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In article ,
wrote: On Fri, 18 Mar 2005 00:32:59 -0800, "Harold and Susan Vordos" wrote: Still, I have one question that troubles me. Is anyone in charge of RCM? It appears not, it's not a moderated ng. Why does it exist? I'd assume to do exactly what it's doing, bringing metalworking aficionados together for discussion on said same topic. The exact language would be in the original charter. A good question would be; are there any original charter members still active here? That info might be derived by checking the final CFV (Call For Votes) where rcm was granted it's name and then seeing if any voters names are familiar. I had just found it as a "trial" newsgroup (or was that "test", and followed it into the formation of rec.crafts.metalworking. I *think* that I got in on the CVF, but I can't swear to it. I followed it for a while, then had to drop out for a while (insufficient time, with the comp.unix.* and comp.sys.* ones which I *had* to follow for work. Once I retired, I picked it up again. One thread which I remember from the early days was when someone posted asking for how to tune the tension rods on the underside of a railroad carriage. (He was involved in restoring a full-sized specialized rail carriage. When one posts, or reads posts that come from RCM, is there any one place where it is all on a hard drive (besides Google)? Nope. Heh, unless there's a super anal original charter member who's saved every single one of them. Hmm ... actually, now that I think of it, there *is*. The same site that hosts the FAQ (something.uwo.edu) also hosts the archive, in which every article that made it to their server was folded into a big archive file. It started with one file per year,then two, and is (I think) now there per year. It even has a few virii archived, from when virii in newsgroups were more common. I think that it was the "good news" virus, but I'm not sure. These archive files can be downloaded via FTP -- but be sure that you have plenty of bandwidth and time. As time goes on, more and more aggressive compression algorithms were used, and IIRC, the current one is bzip2, which leaves an extension of ".bz2". Before that "gzip" (.gz), and perhaps before that, "compress" (.z). [ ... ] Usenet has been here much longer than the "web". It's the great Grandpappy of Al Gore. Yep -- it started out by systems calling each other via modems using uucp to transfer files. It grew to adopt the internet when that became generally available, but it was readily accessible before arpanet broke up to become the internet and no longer a government monopoly. Enjoy, DoN. -- Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564 (too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html --- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero --- |
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"DoN. Nichols" wrote in message ... In article , Harold and Susan Vordos wrote: "DoN. Nichols" wrote in message ... Big snip of a super response- From all indications, this all began when two or more computer owners decided it would be a good idea to link with modems, from which the entire system (the internet) slowly evolved. Your detailed response has given me a much better understanding, and I'm grateful for you taking the time. I've always been totally dazzled that one can hook up to almost anyone in the world, and do it almost instantly. I can't tell you how many fine people I've enjoyed talking with------one of which is a young family man that lives in China. He found me, thanks to RCM, with questions about gold refining, after reading some of my posts concerning the subject. He was handling the refining for a company of over 1,000 employees and had lots of questions. Talking with him was a very interesting experience. Once the RFD period is over, there is then posted a CFV (Call For Votes), in which everybody in the discussion period, and anyone else who cares, is free to submit a vote. There is a regular number of people who vote against *any* new newsgroup. There must be a minimum of 100 votes, and the "yeas" must be a 2/3s majority. (If there are fewer than 100 votes, it is presumed that there is not sufficient interest.) The submission of the CFV is done by a set of regulars who help guide the proponents of the newsgroup through the process. I think that even the RFD call needs a "mentor" these days as well. These people, I assume, would be amongst the few that originated the entire system, so they had a tendency to oversee that which they had helped create. Safe to assume no one gave any of them any authority, but they were honored as being in charge, more or less. I'd liken it to a group of guys gathering at a remote site to drag race. No one is really in charge, but there's a core group that is responsible for everyone being there, so they are the ones that tend to control the happenings. The majority then rules. How cool is that? Can I assume it's nothing more than an address where everyone meets, but there isn't any such place? Sort of -- there is no such place, but it is everywhere. :-) (Or at least, everywhere that there are news servers who carry this particular newsgroup. I hope that this is some help. Yep! Sure was, along with the comments from others. Combined, I feel I have at least a basic understanding of how it works. Certainly much better than before. I'll always probably be in awe that it works, but, like driving a car, one need not understand the workings of an engine in order to reap the benefits of driving. Thanks to one and all for sharing your valuable time with us. I'm sure there are plenty of folks that are just as confused as I have been that benefited by your kind postings. BTW I just got the cut style knurler today -- and haven't yet had a chance to get to the shop and try it out. It is a cute little one which I should even be able to use on my little Compact-5/CNC without any problems. Way cool, DoN. If, by chance, you take the time to take a pic of it, I'd enjoy seeing it. Even better if it's involved in a cut! Feel free to forward them to me should you do so. Your email is always welcome. Best regards to all~ Harold |
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